Quote :

"For terran the 5 second reaper time will help. 5 seconds doesn't sound like much but generally if people reaper it isn't with a single reaper but 3-4 and that actually means it will be 10 seconds later. Those extra few seconds should help. "

Those extra seconds make reaper openings pretty worthless in TvP against decent players IMO. By the time you get a reaper or two unless you do something super super cheesy, I'm pretty sure I can have 2 stalkers up. 1 stalker beats something like 5 reapers, it's one of the few unit matchups that REALLY work in protoss' advantage in a PvT.

9/21/2010 2:47:31 PM

Damn I am at work, thought those were the real patch notes =(

Got excited for nothing.

They shouldn't have even called this patch a balance patch, was more maintenance than anything.

9/21/2010 3:03:54 PM

The Spawn Larvae buff doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Queens spawn with enough energy to spawn larvae, and by the time the larvae are done, the queen is already back up to 25 energy. I am glad the overlords are going to be faster.

9/21/2010 3:55:39 PM

Someone delete my post from last page The patch notes with the overlord info are what were the rumored patch notes from a week ago. The patch notes posted further down are the correct patch notes.

9/21/2010 4:08:28 PM

^yeah you got me excited for nothing.

Bastard.

The actual patch ... might as well have just left the game as it was.

9/21/2010 4:33:18 PM

Quote :

" StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty - Patch 1.1.0 To get the latest news and interact with the community, visit our StarCraft II website. Be sure to check out our Game Guide for an in-depth look at StarCraft II gameplay. We wish you all the best on your journeys through the embattled Koprulu Sector! General • The Standard (US) and Standard for Lefties (US) hotkey configurations are now available in all regions. • A new game clock has been added. Players can now instantly see how long they've been in their current mission or match. This feature can be turned on or off in the Gameplay Options menu. • A new Quick Save option is now available for the single-player campaign. Players can now quickly save their mission progress by pressing Ctrl + Q. • A new System Panel has been added. Players can now view their local time and FPS while in game by mousing over the Menu (F10) button in the upper-left hand corner of the game screen. Laptop users can also view Wi-Fi signal strength and battery levels. • Sight granted by death reveal no longer lifts Fog of War. Units revealed in this manner are not targetable. • (Mac only) Moved StarCraft II data files and settings from the Documents folder into the Application Support folder. • Support for NVIDIA 3D Vision has been added. To experience StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty in 3D on your desktop or notebook, you will need 3D Vision. For more information, visit http://www.nvidia.com/Starcraft3D Balance Changes • PROTOSS o Zealot ? Build time increased from 33 to 38. ? Warp Gate cooldown increased from 23 to 28. • TERRAN o Battlecruiser ? Ground damage decreased from 10 to 8. o Bunker ? Build time increased from 30 to 35. o Reaper ? Build time increased from 40 to 45. o Siege Tank ? Siege mode damage changed from 50 to 35 (+15 armored). ? Upgrade damage changed from +5 to +3 (+2 armored). • ZERG o Ultralisk ? Ram ability removed. Ultralisk will now use normal attack against buildings. ? Damage decreased from 15 (+25 armored) to 15 (+20 armored). • Maps o Desert Oasis ? Destructible Rocks have been added to make natural expansions easier to protect. ? Center Xel'Naga Tower area has been narrowed. StarCraft II Editor Improvements • Added new requirement types: Odd, Divide, Mod, Multiply. • Added a chance field to effect data. • Added support for the Slider dialog control type. • Added a trigger to deal damage from a unit. • Added a trigger event response to provide the amount a player or unit property changes. • Added a trigger event when an effect executes. • New Trigger Editor functions: o Save Data Conversation State Value (Action). o Load Data Conversation State Value (Action). o Players On Team (returns Player Group associated with teams in game lobby). o Unit Owner Changes (Event). o Old Unit Owner (returns player ID in response to Unit Owner Changes). o New Unit Owner (returns player ID in response to Unit Owner Changes). • XP, Level, and Bounty unit properties can now be modified by triggers. • Banks now save/restore XP, learned abilities, and items. • Message Window now includes a time stamp for each message. • An actor event is now dispatched when a missile cannot hit its target. • When loading documents with Battle.net-only dependencies, you will now be prompted to log in and download the dependency data, rather than failing to load. • Game variants now automatically use the default melee variants for new maps, without requiring manual generation. This will not take effect for maps created prior to this patch. • The Custom game variant is no longer automatically included when other non-default variants are defined. • Increased the maximum recharge vital rate for heal effects. Bug Fixes • Battle.net o Chat windows no longer vanish when exiting a multiplayer map or campaign mission. o Fixed an issue where players would still receive toasts when their status was set to busy. • Custom Games o Default race in a game lobby is now properly set to Random. o Players can now configure the lobby for 1v5 matches. o The search functionality for map searches has been improved. o Lobby hosts will now receive a toast when an invited player declines an invitation. o Custom game lobbies will now remember the game mode chosen under a category. o Fixed an issue where changing the category to "Custom" would default the teams to 5v3. o Fixed an issue where custom maps could not be reported from the map preview screen. • Gameplay o General ? If a unit loads into a transport, missiles targeting it will no longer target similar units in the area. ? Structures damaged during construction will no longer count towards structures lost. ? Fixed an issue where builders waiting for an area to clear could block units trying to leave the area. ? Fixed an issue with inventory drop range checks. ? Fixed an issue that, in certain cases, allowed a command to be issued that did not appear on the command card o Interface ? Queue tooltips now display information about what is in progress. ? Fixed an issue where the back button would not always return players to the score screen properly. o Terran ? Marines trained at multiple Barracks will now prefer a Barracks with a Reactor over one with a Tech Lab or no attachment. ? SCVs will now load into the closest Command Center if multiple are within range. o Zerg ? Creep now recedes properly when an AI-controlled Hatchery, Lair, or Hive is destroyed. • StarCraft II Editor o The Player Leaves Game event now fires when a player leaves or they are defeated/victorious. o Loading screen progress bar option now works when using Melee loading screen type. o Test Document now works properly on maps with Battle.net-only dependencies. o Publishing a new file using Major revision will now properly set the document version to 1.0. o Publish dialog now properly remembers the Show Real Name setting from previous publish. o File preview panel now displays author's real name if that option was set during publishing. o The Import module will now allow importing an override Assets.txt file. o Undoing a terrain object modification will now also undo associated terrain changes. o Editor will display document text from another locale if no text for the active locale exists. o Copying points with custom models will display the model properly on the pasted point. o It is no longer possible to have multiple default variants in the Game Variants dialog. o Removed icon support for attribute and variant definitions, as Battle.net does not display these. o Fixed issues with invalid map bounds when creating 32x32 maps. o Fixed issues with poor performance in the Terrain Editor when scroll bars are visible. o Fixed issues with drag-and-drop in Trigger Editor when tracking is not enabled. o Fixed an issue that would cause a crash if multiple unit forms had too many abilities. o Fixed an issue with temporary publish names in the Publish dialog still verifying the original name. o Fixed an issue with the Unit Manipulates Item trigger. o Fixed excessive delays on some systems when saving files using the Smaller Files option, and also when publishing Locked files. o Fixed preview panel display in Terrain Editor palettes. o Fixed performance issues in Terrain Editor when modifying terrain with many road tiles on the map. o Fixed initial display of variables in the Trigger Debugging Window. o Fixed generated script for built-in attribute values, which caused them to not be accessed properly. o Fixed action list when modifying a Custom Script action without sub-views enabled. o Fixed loading map dependency data. o Fixed an issue where loading complex bank files would cause the client to disconnect from Battle.net. • Technical Issues o Fixed an issue where unplugging headphones could cause the game to freeze. o Fixed an issue where XP systems running with Unicode characters enabled could prevent a player from starting a multiplayer game. "

The official patch notes. Posting it again on this page to avoid confusion from the rumored notes on the last page.

9/21/2010 5:37:12 PM

no big surprises. Id rather them take it slow and steady and let the players really get in there and hammer out what works and what doesn't.

the game is going to be going for years, no sense rushing changes in the first 6 mo

9/21/2010 5:46:40 PM

Haha, just had a funny game vs a toss. I fast expoed and pushed out some lings (he built forge first, 2 gated) - managed to do a nydus into the back of his base to take out almost all his probes. I rebuilt a ling force again and managed to do a run by as a stalker was getting warped in at his choke point and took out his probes/nexus. At this point I didn't see any of an army so I wasn't really paying attention to my macro - then he has 20 stalkers inside my base raping my expo/main. I managed to nydus threw all my drones to his base and put down a roach warren (it was the only unit producing building I could throw down), along with a hatchery. I then used my 2k resources to build a bunch of spine crawlers in his base and slowly pushed them out till I took out the rest of his stalkers It was really bad play by me.. should've been over 10 minutes before, but it was funny.

9/21/2010 6:14:09 PM

Been a few pages since this had been up and I fixed zags character number.

Tww username: name.character code
Azaka: Azaka.422
BigEgo: ProtisRobit.535
titans78: FLuE.301
Lokken: Lokken.762
JCE2011:AdmiralHaket.306
icyhotpatch: Unity.156
JBaz: JBaz.283
Stimwalt: Stimwalt.306
slackerb: slackerb.591
Doss2k: Doss.357
Doss2k friend: Phoebetor.944
Fry: Lionhart.667
sprocket: sprocket.441
dzags18:zags.414
Wolfmarsh: Lazarus.765

9/21/2010 7:45:51 PM

day 9's fun day monday is carrier rushing.

if i didn't hate carriers i'd summit something.

9/22/2010 11:58:49 AM

Won a crazy ZvZ where we both went blingling at each other(as all zvz starts). I messed up and he had me down to like 4 drones, left with no queens(he had killed several) but I had some minerals.

At that point I said "gg", figuring it was over but I didn't leave just started building drones and expanded. Kept waiting for an attack but didn't come for a few minutes and I managed to get an economy back up and pump out about 12 hydras. He had decided to go mass queens, at that point our creep had connected so they were relatively mobile. Needless to say his attack with like 15 queens didn't work and I ended up winning the game. He goes "so much for trying something new after you said GG." I really just stuck around to finish out the game to practice a bit of micro, but guess it worked out.

ZvZ is the dumbest thing, but now that I've done it more it is pretty fun and intense. Just crazy ling/ling bane battles.

9/22/2010 3:14:17 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZwEnz_QijQ

Ultras are now broken.

In the next patch, here's a few things I'd like to see them do:
-Fix that Ultra glitch, there's no way they meant to make scvs on the other side of the command center die from that ultra attack.
-Buff Phoenix. For them to do well against Muta you have to intensely micro them, and against terran air, they aren't very good (vikings in equal numbers prolly win, bcs destroy them, banshees don't count because they don't attack air) Vikings already beat Voids (when the Voids aren't speedvoids already charged up) and Carriers (when in equal resource), why make them do so well against Phoenix too? Phoenix also should do a little bit better against voids, but that can be dealt with by whatever you do to make them better against vikings and mutas, as well as whatever you do to nerf voids.
-Slightly nerf voids
-Slightly nerf Marauders. Terran tier 1 infantry are too strong. Marines already have the best DPS for their cost, and anything they don't do well against Marauders do. They get stim and concussive shells, and both are really easy to get. I'd say increase the cost of concussive shells and the build time. That'll make it easier for toss to deal with marauder rushing and early 2M pushes.

9/23/2010 1:34:03 PM

Ultras aren't broken, thats stupid. God forbid the zerg have one unit other then air that can take out a planetary fortress thats being repaired. The only thing that needs to be fixed is the radius needs to be adjusted so that it only hits those who are actually repairing, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with the way ultras splash those guys.

9/23/2010 1:50:38 PM

There is a problem when the Ultra is splash damaging something it nowhere near the cleave attack.

9/23/2010 2:07:59 PM

Quote :

"Won a crazy ZvZ where we both went blingling at each other(as all zvz starts). I messed up and he had me down to like 4 drones, left with no queens(he had killed several) but I had some minerals. At that point I said "gg", figuring it was over but I didn't leave just started building drones and expanded. Kept waiting for an attack but didn't come for a few minutes and I managed to get an economy back up and pump out about 12 hydras. He had decided to go mass queens, at that point our creep had connected so they were relatively mobile. Needless to say his attack with like 15 queens didn't work and I ended up winning the game. He goes "so much for trying something new after you said GG." I really just stuck around to finish out the game to practice a bit of micro, but guess it worked out. ZvZ is the dumbest thing, but now that I've done it more it is pretty fun and intense. Just crazy ling/ling bane battles."

I have no doubt you weren't trying to cheat or deceive him, but I only type GG when I am going to leave the game.

edit --

actually thats not 100% true. I do say GG right at the beginning sometimes.

[Edited on September 23, 2010 at 2:18 PM. Reason : *]

9/23/2010 2:12:15 PM

It kinda makes me mad when people GG but don't leave. I had a guy GG when I blinked past his cannon wall, but he didn't leave. He kept making units, and I had to take out every last warpgate, and every last cannon and pylon before i won from his lack of buildings.

9/23/2010 2:14:17 PM

^^^^^^I'm actually enjoying ZvZ when I can get a good scout off. It seems to me that zerg units just counter each other so much harder then a zerg unit counters a specific terran/protoss. Today I was playing a ZvZ and had an overlord hidden in a spot outside his base that let me see enough to know he had a decent ball of slings. I built around 10 blings and started teching straight to mutas. I just massed mutas, waited for his push with lings (about 60 lings, all instantly raped by the blings) and sent the mutas on in. GG

9/23/2010 2:42:06 PM

Quote :

"There is a problem when the Ultra is splash damaging something it nowhere near the cleave attack."

The cleave attack is designed to hit adjacent units. The SCV is next to the target of the Ultra cleave attack. I don't see a problem.

9/23/2010 4:10:04 PM

^^^

I have GGed several times to make my opponent think he has won. He stopped building units, and slowly destroyed what he thought was my final base. I then flew over to his main base with 25 carriers with a mothership, and won. He was very upset ftw.

[Edited on September 23, 2010 at 4:26 PM. Reason : -]

9/23/2010 4:26:24 PM

Quote :

"The cleave attack is designed to hit adjacent units. The SCV is next to the target of the Ultra cleave attack. I don't see a problem."

The cleave attack to designed to hit units that it would realistically hit from the attack. there's no way that it should hit something on the other side of the CC effectively 4.5 blocks away from it. Watch that Psy patch note thing I posted. That box he outlines of where it should do damage is what I agree with. It doesn't make any sense that a melee unit is damaging something 4.5 blocks away from where it's attacking.

9/23/2010 4:42:09 PM

There's no other way to kill a PF with zerg ground without massive losses. It may be broken but I don't think it's that imbalanced. Terran's don't even have to bring their army to defend a PF, just have all the SCVs repair, that, to me, is imbalanced.

9/23/2010 4:47:02 PM

Banglings can probably do a decent job. Mutas if they don't have missle turrets. Ultras would still be able to take down planetary fortresses without the ability for one to kill it and everything trying to repair it no matter where that is. Does collusi splash damage do the same thing?

9/23/2010 5:09:02 PM

You could send 10 ultras up against a PF thats being repaired the old way and they would all get raped. Keep in mind you rarely even see ultras in play, they are the zergs best ground unit, they should be able to rape whats basically a tier 1 defensive structure.

9/23/2010 5:16:15 PM

so you keep some splash damage, but you don't make one ultra be able to splash damage everything.

also on the planetary fortress thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XepT2daJqYY&feature=sub

about 12 minutes in psy shows how to bait a PF and if the other player doesn't micro the PF you won't lose anything but a single ling when you attack it.

9/23/2010 5:27:15 PM

^That method is just silly. How practical would that ever be. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the fact that the ultra can tear through a planetary fortress that is being repaired. Keep in mind you are still going to need multiple ultras to kill one, its not like one ultra just owns a planetary fortress solo. How can you justify a t1 defensive structure (albeit the most expensive one) being able to rape masses of t1-t3 units?

9/23/2010 9:10:01 PM

if you can't see the problem with ultras damaging SCVs on the other side of the CC...

9/23/2010 9:37:56 PM

I did think about it after I said GG to the guy and kept playing that he might have thought I was trying to dupe him. I really wasn't, I didn't plan on him going mass Queens though, so if I knew that I wouldn't have said GG. I guess it just is one of those lessons, finish off a game regardless of what someone says.

Now that I'm playing Zerg exclusively in 1v1 starting to get the hang of it more. The ZvZ matchup is really pretty interesting and scouting is big. I have found it is key to just go one base ling to bling to muta. If you do that and they try to expand it is pretty easy to win. I've also been using a build on maps with long rush distances and going super fast muta, lair before queen. Would open up a lot of options for zerg if you could make a queen while your lair is building.

I really struggle with zerg against a hard 1 base 4 warpgate push. The timing of it is so that they tend to arrive with their first push right when you start pumping roaches after your expand is up. You end up with this like 2-3 minute of intense micro where you are barely able to produce enough roaches to hold on. Really tough and just need more practice at it. I find Terran isn't as tough because if you stop the initial push it takes a while for reinforcements. I'm finding that if they get that pylon down and just keep warping in it can be tough.

As far as the ultras go... First, it is a pretty unique situation, and I'm assuming the radius will be reduced some. However, until now Zerg had no unit that did any splash damage, I don't really count mutas in that so this is helpful because the PF was a bitch to deal with. As it has been mentioned it isn't like Zerg has anything that really scares any of the other races so to get thrown one bone with Ultras is nice. I'd love to see a change to the Broodlord. I think that unit is garbage between the cost, time, etc. And really Ultras aren't that great either. Give me Thors/BCs, Void Rays/Colosi over Ultras/Broods any day of the week.

9/23/2010 11:50:06 PM

God I want to get out of silver. I've been working banelings into my early game with a ton of effectiveness. I've also gotten pretty good at countering them against poorly microing zerg. My first three games today were all zvz, two of them I went bling/sling and dominated their mostly sling force, the other he went for super fast blings so I got roaches/lings out. Everytime I saw a bling I would pull one ling away and use it to blow up the bling. It was super entertaining.

Anyways, 14-1 over my last 15, most of them coming against favored competition but it won't promote me 1st in my division at 57-43.

9/24/2010 7:26:37 AM

Lost all 3 of my games this morning. Sucked.

Lost the first to MMM which I just messed up micro and not enough baneling

The lost to 4 warpgate which I always lose to.

Then just lost to thors.

Zerg is just so tough. It is so unforgiving, mistakes hurt you way more than with either of the other races. Now I'm pissed and have started my day off shitty after playing well last night.

9/24/2010 10:19:57 AM

Tru. One thing I hate about zerg is how anti-air takes longer to get than other races. You need a hive upgrade then a hydra lair to get hydras, which are also expensive and generally not a good unit for anything other than base defense. Also, getting spores up early will hurt your early macro because you're sacrificing percious workers.

9/24/2010 10:43:38 AM

I typically use queens as my anti air for zerg early on. I often will make at least 3 out of my main, I'll move one to the natural and keep the other two back while spreading creep with one. If they try and move any air in before I have the capability to make mutas/hydras I'll run the queens together and just transfuse the hell out of them, works very well against the 2 or 3 void rays that you would be up against at that point. Eventually I'll end up building an in base hatch so that 3rd queen can get to work being more productive with larvae as well.

9/24/2010 12:06:42 PM

Thats not a bad strat but that requires queens to have a lot of spare energy.

9/24/2010 1:04:02 PM

hydras when on creep are pretty good against most gateway units. all but templar

anyway, i finally decided to do the placement game. my mouse lagged keeping me from defending a 6 pool, so i got a shitty placement, but i haven't lost since. PvP is so easy when you play it like the pros do instead of like a n00b. 4 gate stalkers >>>> void rush.

just beat a platinum player pretty easily who tried to proxy double stargate void rush me. didn't find his proxy, but 4 gate stalkered him, got his base down easily, he got some of my base including my nexus. then i proxyed a cybercore and guarded it TTOne style 4 uncharged voids <<<<< 10 stalkers and a sentry. I ended up killing his proxy with all my remaining probes. and then he says "dang, lucky" as if luck had anything to do with it. Like I didn't know you were going for voids like a n00b when you took those early gases.

9/24/2010 1:28:01 PM

^^^^Yep I think that is one of the issues. Both of the other races seem to be able to sit at tier 1/1.5 against zerg and do well and Zerg has to get to tier 2 if only for Roach Speed.

I hate it because now I'm turning into the Zerg QQ people but now that I'm playing it and I've played random for so long there really are some glaring issues with the race. There is a reason why another top player from Korea(I believe oGs.Wind or some shit) is quitting zerg also.

I've found that if I go with a one base speedling/bling opening I can win games but if it doesn't work or do major damage I'm left with one base and a weak economy. If I early expand and you get a hard MM/4 gate push early it takes everything you have, micro, macro, etc. to hold it. If you do it isn't an automatic GG either because you haven't been building up your economy the whole time while the other side was still making probes/scvs.

Some simple solutions that I think would help without making Zerg to strong would be to allow queen production and lair production at the same time, allow roach speed at tier 1. Both of these I think would help zerg quite a bit without really making the race crazy strong. By allowing queen production and lair upgrade you aren't forced to choose between economy/defense/tech. Roach speed at tier 1 is no different to me than the ling speed. Now all the sudden an early roach push vs. a teching terran would be way more viable.

Also, why the hell don't mutas turn into broodlords? Anyone else think it is completely stupid that your anti air unit turns into a unit that only shoots at the ground? Makes the transition to broodlords way harder than like in SC going from muta to guardian.

However, I'm also still learning each game and I think when I get it going I'll be able to do well with this race. I have the most fun playing Zerg, I think it is because it is a challenge and rewarding when I win. I'm also not losing to slouches, at this point most of my games are 900-1000 point players so they really exploit any mistake I make. Hopefully I'll be 1000+ by the end of the weekend, I guess that is a nice benchmark.

9/24/2010 2:14:22 PM

One thing that kills me is stim. Stim is wayyy too effective for the cost/damage done to marauders. For one - it costs what, 100/100? And it gives both marauders and marines the ability. Marauders who take basically no damage from it and absolutely rape buildings with it. Throw in concussive shells for another 50/50 and marauders are rape machines.

PS if someone has a post 1.1 save near the end of utter darkness or all in, I would love you for it. I cannot for the life of me beat either of those on brutal and they are all that is stopping me from the achievement

[Edited on September 24, 2010 at 2:35 PM. Reason : a]

9/24/2010 2:26:08 PM

Quote :

"There is a reason why another top player from Korea(I believe oGs.Wind or some shit) is quitting zerg also. "

I think FruitSeller (formerly oGs.Cool) and that wind guy are talking about quiting zerg, and Check is pissed enough that he might soon.

9/24/2010 2:37:41 PM

Oh and for anyone who plays colonial wars (its my custom game fav when I need a break from ladder) - try going straight dark templar. Typically one of two things happens. Either they keep massing ground units and I'll keep doing dark templars, typically up to 4 then I'll pump my econ till they start fighting back. Or they will go fast mutas, once they stop producing new units tech up to ghosts. Ghosts/dark templars absolutely rape tier 1/2 units. This gives me plenty of time to pump the econ, tech up to tier 3/4 and throw out some immortals and a battleship, then its GG.

9/24/2010 3:04:04 PM

I've never had an issue with not having enough anti-air early as Zerg.

9/24/2010 3:06:14 PM

stein, has anyone tried to use nony's phoenix on you? or void rush? or banshee rush?

nony's WILL give any zerg who doesn't get a few queens at each base trouble and force you into either getting the multiple queens or getting hydra (which takes a while and will leave you kinda brokish) or static defenses. it's then very easy to do things like take another base or tech switch to collusi or templar, both paths will destroy that likely hydra switch.

[Edited on September 24, 2010 at 3:21 PM. Reason : sdfgh]

9/24/2010 3:12:47 PM

Void and Banshees, yes. Phoenixes, no.

Queens do just fine against the early rushes. Plus, you should know both are coming well ahead of time, especially with Protoss. Just push hard early.

9/24/2010 3:25:44 PM

Yea early air defense as zerg isn't hard at all if you are actually scouting.

9/24/2010 3:33:02 PM

What level are you Stein? I'd figure many toss >Gold would have figured out Nony's phoenix by now as it's a popular build. Too many toss do one of three things though, making the game really boring: Cannon rush, Void Ray spam, 4 gate.

I don't like post patch PvZ that much. 2 gating is now useless as zealots build time is too long.
Early lings are more effective because you won't have the zealots to counter. I'm almost forced to wall myself in on like 12 with a gateway/forge because that first zealot takes FOREVER to build now.

Postpatch PvT makes zealots even more worthless, and Marauders super powerful. Tanks don't really have a role in TvP IMO anymore. They're easier to deal with now

9/24/2010 3:39:22 PM

I'm Bronze, but it doesn't particularly matter. If you know what's coming, you can counter it.

9/24/2010 3:47:34 PM

if the toss denies scouting, by the time you can react to it, it'll be too late for you to make the proper units before he's able to do some damage. I'm pretty decent at it, and I can usually get a good advantage and sometimes by getting 5-6 phoenix force players into mass hydra. (and keep zerg from doing one of the most annoying things in PvZ, massing muta)

[Edited on September 24, 2010 at 3:56 PM. Reason : asdfg]

9/24/2010 3:55:12 PM

Yeah, but it's much, much faster for a Zerg to switch tech than a Protoss. Not to mention (regardless of level of play) walling off with a Cyber Core means "get ready to be attacked by something that flies"

9/24/2010 4:05:37 PM

there are other ways to deny scouting, and by the time you have enough hydras to deal with my phoenix harass, I can have my bay up and start pumping out collusi.

[Edited on September 24, 2010 at 5:02 PM. Reason : asdfg]

9/24/2010 5:00:13 PM

^^Actually, and not being a dick about it, the league does make a huge difference.

Bronze league stopping air isn't the same as diamond stopping phoenix builds. To say "core means getting attacked by air" simply isn't true at all, in Bronze maybe but in my games against Toss almost all you'll ever get with a scout is a core and a gate. That doesn't even mean you won't see mass zealots and it certainly doesn't mean prepare for air. At this point what I do is fly my first OL to the backside of their base and I sacrifice it into their main around the 5 minute mark which is when you'll see a quick robo or quick stargate. Even then it still might be to late for me to be ready for whatever is coming.

You just aren't seeing the same type of pressure/micro at that level like you do in the higher levels, wasting money/queens on something that doesn't show up will be exploited. From ending up in some lower leagues in 2s and 3s I've found that the game is almost played entirely different in Diamond/Plat to Bronze/Silver with Gold being a mix.

Quote :

"much faster for a Zerg to switch tech than a Protoss."

Don't think that is true either. I've played a number of games where I'll see 1 stargate, 2-3 phoenix and a switch to a robo for immortals with ease. If you guess wrong and have to switch tech early game with Zerg you'll die when that 10 minute push comes. You can't afford to not get it right.

Not to mention aside from maybe a surprise spire there isn't even a reason to scout zerg. Toss can just automatically 3 or 4 gate and robo and be fine, and Terran can just MMM or tech Thor/Tank/Marine and what I do means little. Just make sure you aren't getting 6 pooled. I just have to hope that when you do show up my unit composition is the right ratio to stop whatever it is you have, and I've done as much scouting/guessing as possible to help myself with that.

A few more open maps without high ground and tiny chokes(since that is what they all basically have) would throw zerg a bone as well.

9/24/2010 5:17:52 PM

So fucking pissed, going for my 9th win in a row for the day, undefeated in 1v1.. I was playing some toss who cannoned, I assumed going void rays then. So I expanded twice, got some hydras out, spread overseers around the map and finally he goes for a couple warp prism drops. All of which get killed before they hit the ground as I had creep everywhere and would have my hydras move to wherever his prisms went :p So I hit 200/200 with mutas/hydras and move in for the kill... and my connection goes out. Motherfucker.

9/24/2010 5:32:37 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scCnY2g1TTg&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0ElaQdXGhk&feature=channel

Compare that to what you see in bronze.

BTW, if you didn't know, the most standard good protoss opening is gate (usually between 12 and 14), gas, core, gate. if you're doing something gas heavy (4 gate stalkers, robo/star tech) you'll add another gate in there, but that's what good players typically do.

I think Huk's standard opening lately is 13 gate, 14 gas, 16 core/pylon, second gas and somewhere around 22 gate, then robo shortly after when he can fit it in.

9/24/2010 5:42:56 PM

went 0-6 wed night, hopefully tonight will be better

9/24/2010 5:53:36 PM