No offense, but if he didn't get in the other schools, then he should wait out a year, and try again. In this economy, I don't think it's a good idea to go to a mediocre private school to rack up tons of debt, and then come out with no job prospect (like khcadwal)

8/5/2010 5:58:05 PM

well job prospects are slim no matter where you graduate from right now, obviously moreso from lower tiered schools, but the poor economy has hit across the board. tough job market (and that goes for many fields). tough being in NC where we have 6 or 7 law schools, also.

and some people choose to go to schools where they are given financial aid (ZOMG, scholarships! what a novel concept.)

i got into other schools, thank you. didn't apply to duke/unc though. but campbell and central. and i got into campbell to transfer but i chose not to. and some out of state schools but that would have been just as expensive as elon since i didn't get scholarships there.

i know people that have graduated from unc and other schools both this year and last and some of last year's kids are even STILL unemployed or just doing contract work.

not everyone who chooses a mediocre private school didn't get in anywhere else or is dumb. the more you know, right?

oh and you do know that law school is 3 years right? i know that in 2006 when i was applying to schools for fall of '07 i didn't really forsee a massive economic downturn while i was in law school and graduating in the worst economy since the great depression. *SHRUG* guess i'm retarded.

but i have even said before, because the economy is so bad right now and economists don't predict a recovery for the legal market until at least 2012, yea its kind of stupid to go now. if i were going to law school RIGHT NOW since i can look around and SEE the current economy, even getting a sizeable scholarship at a private school, i'd definitely go public. central is affordable AND has a part time program so you could work and go to school. that would be my choice.

and i'm just adding one more thing in my rant: plenty of people on this message board and elsewhere have gone to lowered tier schools and done FINE. while a big school name CAN and certainly does help you, it isn't everything. in this field (and all fields), as i'm sure many here will attest, NETWORKING plays a huge roll. it is about who you know. ask jbrick. CofC isn't some baller ass law school but he was a hard worker, well connected and found a great job. which is what we are trying to impress on thatgoodlock. networking networking networking. knowing your peers and professors. it matters.

THE END.


[Edited on August 5, 2010 at 7:00 PM. Reason : edited for bitchiness. sorry. toned DOWN ]

8/5/2010 6:44:57 PM

^sorry, I wasn't trying to single you out or anything. It's just that you're the only other person I know that went to Elon. Anyway, I wasn't trying to make the point that which law school you go to will play a big role on your salary. In fact, I doubt grads of various NC law schools (beside Duke) will see a big difference in salaries across the board. The point i'm trying to make is that going to a comparable public school (NC Central/UNC) will save this guy money and still get similar level of education.

8/5/2010 7:01:30 PM

^ hahaha that is what i figured. i just take things too personally, sowwie. and employment, clearly a sensitive topic right now

but yea i've said it in here before, knowing the economy right now, i wouldn't go to a private school either. central is definitely the way to go. or if you can get into unc, then unc. actually (and i've said this before too) with this economy right this second, i would NOT go to law school right now at all. i'd wait another year.

but that is just me. being on the other side and all. good old perspective, how kind you are.

8/5/2010 7:37:43 PM

get it straight people, jbrick didn't go to CofC law school bc there is no CofC law school. he went to the Charleston School of Law, a private school not affiliated with the CofC.

now back to watching Teen Mom on MTV while i await my bar results...

8/5/2010 8:12:46 PM

lol oh my b

i didn't know they were different. shows how much i know

8/5/2010 8:30:19 PM

ive been planning on going to law school for 3 years. not thinking about, planning. i studied for 2 years for the LSAT because of a personal issue the day before the first planned test and i'm proud of my score. i stayed an extra year at work after my score to save up and take care of some financial loose ends. you guys act like i'm winging this whole process, that I haven't weighed pros and cons and made informed decisions according to my personal experiences and interests. I think alot of you are very stressed right now and taking it out maybe through your opinions. This talk about "the way this economy is now" and "get into another school" is some of the worst advice I've heard in a long time. Unless of course you guys are also financial and job market analysts. And without even asking the hows or the whys of something, you all seem to label things very black and white. there's no shortage of reasons people go to the school they choose to go and there's no shortage of people that do extremely well after going to even the lower tier schools. of course you're free to pile on the negativity (if you truly think it's helpful) but just realize I'm going to need a little more than "in my experience" to convince me to change my mind. at least show me concrete evidence or some numbers or something.

much love,
TGL

8/5/2010 10:05:49 PM

1. i agree with you that people do extremely well going to lower tiered schools (or have done so in the past)

2. i went to your school so i'm familiar with the way that things work and i'm all for elon (goooo phoenix). i think it is going to definitely have the reputation of a decent law school

3. i'm not piling on angst about unemployment or anything on you

4. "in my experience" matters - not with things like, what i would do NOW in your shoes, but in what i've been through and what other people that have gone to law school have been through - that matters for you. our experiences DO matter. yes, a bazillion personal decisions go into what you choose to do. no one is arguing that. and no one is trying to "pile on negativity" - but if you're posting in a law school thread, expect to get feedback from people that have gone through it. what i say about the job market NOW, has nothing to do with the fact that i still don't think you should isolate yourself from your peers in law school. we're trying to give you advice on getting through school NOT on what to do after

5. i'm just saying if i had to choose right now i wouldn't go to school and that is MY logic, not yours. but what people say about being in school DOES matter. school isn't changing - what you need to get through school isn't changing. and no one is hating on you

[Edited on August 6, 2010 at 3:03 AM. Reason : .]

8/6/2010 2:34:28 AM

Quote :

"at least show me concrete evidence or some numbers or something."

First, you can't put "networking" into numbers. Just the same way that you can't put "my daddy is a judge/big attorney/politician and a I have a job waiting for me right outside of law school" into numbers either. So first hand knowledge of this stuff is pretty big. Especially when you're getting it from people who are going to a law school that is on your "tier." But since you want numbers, I just googled "unemployed law school graduates" and just browsed through the articles. Very disheartening...but also not the numbers I was looking for. So then I googled "unemployment rates for law school graduates" and got more of what I was looking for. The first page is full of the Stanfords and Ivy League schools of the country where you're still pretty much guaranteed a job if you attend those schools. I'll just throw out a few numbers to give you a feel for what it's looking like. First, Duke was the first NC school that popped up on the list. Then Wake Forest. I feel like they don't have the top numbers like the Ivy League schools because NC is such a saturated state with law schools. There are what, 7 law schools in NC right now?? Ridiculous for the size of the state in my opinion. SC just got their 2nd 5 years ago and I still feel like its a little crowded. But I'll put UNC's number up there first. These are percentage of law school graduates who were employed after they graduated in 2009:

UNC: 62.6%. That's almost 4 out of every 10 law school graduates at one of the top law schools in the state not being employed.

Campbell: 62.6%. I've heard several reasons why Campbell has such a good employment rate (although it's not good now, but it is good compared to a higher tiered school like UNC). I've always been told that they don't necessarily teach the law during the law school, but cater more towards teaching the stuff that is going to be on the Bar exam ("Teaching the Bar" as I've heard it called). And it's a smaller school and geared a lot towards networking.


So you have one of the top law schools in the state and another very established law school with good connections that have about 60% of their graduates getting jobs. Newer schools like Charlotte's and Elon's aren't listed, but I can't imagine their numbers being much above 50%, if that.

And honestly, from reading your posts, I have no doubt that you will do very well in law school. You seem like a ridiculously hard worker and from the looks of your research about law school, you appear to be the type of student that thrives in this type of educational environment. But I also think this mentality of "I'll just finish at the top of my class and I'll have a job waiting" is where you're wrong. First, there's no guarantee that if you work ridiculously hard and put in crazy hours, that you'll be at the top of your class. It just doesn't work out that way. I know smart kids that did that and still hovered in the middle. And although I'm sure you'll figure out something that works, you living that far away can only hinder your studying options. Studying for three hours on the train won't be as good as studying for three hours in the library before class with no distractions. Second, finishing at the top of your class at a school like Elon, Charlotte, or the Charleston School of Law, doesn't guarantee you a job at all. At the top tier schools, it pretty much does, but not at the lower tier ones. My roommate in Law School was Editor in Chief of the Law Review, top 10 in the class, founder and President of our Student Trial Lawyer's Association, and clerked with great judges every summer. Yet he didn't get a job (clerkship actually) until the very last minute when a Judge's clerk got pregnant and she quit. Then when he was done with the clerkship, he didn't get a job AGAIN until the very last minute when a good friend of his was able to pull a string and get him a job at a worker's comp firm.

So this is the only thing I'm criticizing you of....you can't go in there with this anti-social attitude. You can't just hop on the train, study, go to class, and hop back on the train or in a car-pool and go back to Raleigh and live that life. Law school if a life style. You need to join the clubs and do happy hour with your peers. You need to go out for a drink with your teacher and talk about class for 5 minutes, then talk about his/her life for the next hour or two. Get on the law school flag football team or indoor soccer team. Not saying you have to do all of these things, but you have to have some type of involvement rather than just being in class and taking tests with these people. Those are facts that can't be backed by numbers. Because grades will only be a small determining factor in getting a job when you're done with law school.

8/6/2010 12:39:47 PM

^. seconded. everything he said.

also, i'll just comment on:

Quote :

"Elon's aren't listed, but I can't imagine their numbers being much above 50%, if that."

yea i'm the second graduating class so there aren't any concrete numbers. i'd say like at least 50% of the first class are employed. in a job. of some form. they say 90% but that is a bullshit inflated number that i think included people that went back to school. why, i don't know. but most of last year's class found employment eventually (w/in a year). i don't know the time frame or anything. and clearly all of those people might not be in legal jobs (i don't know what the criteria are for the other listings that you mentioned - like if that is legal jobs or just jobs or what).

my class...#s are going to be a lot worse just given the economy. i can't even estimate how many of my classmates have jobs. i know it is over 30% though just cause with < 100 people left in my class i can count the ones i know that have jobs and do the math

but yea, as a new school, we don't have concrete numbers. and OBVIOUSLY as a new school, it is just more difficult because there isn't a huge alumni network like campbell and central and other NC schools have. plus, the name isn't really out there. luckily Elon as a whole has a decent name but employers are hesitant to hire from a school without a concrete reputation. THAT SAID, we didn't have any problems with people coming to campus for interviews or anything. and we have kids employed at some of the well known firms. smith moore. womble. etc. so while it is going to be more difficult than attending a school with a solid reputation and alumni base, people are breaking into the field from Elon so. just keep that in mind. these are things i wish i had thought of before i chose to go to a new law school. true story. i didn't really think about it at all (lack of alumni base, reputation, etc). i just saw "new," "pretty," and "$$$" and made my choice.

and a side note! not to bash charlotte, but their bar passage rate last year was pretty dismal so i don't think their employment numbers would be high at all. i have NOT heard good things about that school.

8/6/2010 4:49:47 PM

yeah i decided not to apply to Charlotte Law school and I based that decision SOLELY off the fact that every person who i know went there (i went to hs in Charlotte) is someone who i seriously was like "how the F did they get into law school?" so I just imagined it being the bottom rung

8/7/2010 11:05:52 AM

Advice:

If you can't get into a tier 1, go public. If you don't go public you better have schollies.

8/7/2010 6:04:37 PM

Advice:

Be better than everyone else before you. People will notice.

8/7/2010 7:00:34 PM

Advice: don't think people will notice you just because you think you're awesome

8/7/2010 8:51:44 PM

I start class at Wake next week, and I am looking at things from both perspectives.

My first attitude is that I need to excel in the classroom, and put all of my focus on performing as well as possible. Essentially, I am willing to do whatever it takes to succeed in school, and I am prepared for the next year to be a total commitment. I've spent all summer preparing and finding out about anything I could, including reading several books on law school and the 6 E & Es for all of my first year courses.

However, I am also aware that the connections you make are more important than just about anything else. When I came to visit the campus, I remember talking with a student who was around the middle of his class, but because of the work he had made to network and build connections, he had three job offers coming out of school, whereas he mentioned an individual who was in the top 5 in the class, but he was struggling to find work. He had spent all of his time focused on performance, and not on making the proper connections he needed to get a job after law school. To that end, I am planning to spend as much time as I can developing those relationships and building connections as well. My attitude is that grades alone may not be enough to provide me with the career options I want, and the same can be said for networking, but if I focus on both extremely intently, then I should be in the best position I can be in, given the circumstances.

For me, it's about maximizing every possible chance I have to succeed, and anything that might give me an advantage is something that I'm willing to do. I am reminded of one of the things I read from a student who finished in the top 1% of his class at Loyola and used that to transfer to Berkeley. He wrote that you can't always correlate time spent studying with top grades, but given the forced curves and limited number of As available, you shouldn't be surprised that the people who put in 6-8 hours a day outside of class studying usually are those people. Yes, there are people who are at the top of the class who don't have to study as much because they just "get it," but are you really willing to take the chance on that?

And of course, since I haven't started, I don't know anything more than any other 0L, but I tried to find everything that people had in common who have done very well in law school and do as many of those things as possible, instead of just deciding to do things my own way. It's just too important for me to risk.

8/8/2010 12:36:36 AM

Just my two cents, no offense. Take it for what it's worth.

8/9/2010 1:24:02 PM

^ agree completely with what you posted.

my response wasn't directed at you it was just another attempt at emphasizing the importance of networking.

8/9/2010 8:12:24 PM

i passed the Patent Bar today, if any TWWers want some study materials on the cheap let me know. i have both the PRG and PLI classes.

best of luck to everyone this year.

8/11/2010 6:14:25 PM

Congratulations! I would like to take the Patent Bar, but need to go back for a handful of classes after Law School in order to sit for it.

8/11/2010 7:08:30 PM

^^Congrats. I took it last summer, twas such a relief to get it out of the way before law school ends.

8/12/2010 10:11:03 PM

congrats! hope to follow you in a couple years

8/12/2010 10:34:34 PM

Any chance anyone on here has taken the South Carolina Bar and kept your South Carolina distinctions materials for the essays? I am going to take it in Feb. and would love to buy them.

Don't really care if they are bar-bri, kaplan, whatever...

8/15/2010 3:33:51 PM

Hmm...I'll check in the office tomorrow morning and see. My office bookshelves are pretty much just full of all my law school books , so if I still have it, it will be there.

8/15/2010 11:59:58 PM

thanks jbrick... I'd hate to have to buy a new set from Bar-Bri or Kaplan.

8/16/2010 3:49:38 PM

That's a no-go. I think I remember giving it to a girl a year behind me in law school now...along with most of the rest of my Kaplan/Bar-Bri books. At that point I had decided that either I was going to pass the Bar exam and I wouldn't need them anymore, or that I had failed the exam and I was never going to take that test again.

8/17/2010 10:16:38 AM

oh well, thanks for looking jb,

Anyone else?????? (fingers crossed)

8/18/2010 9:48:20 AM

Well orientation went swimmingly! Already made some good friends and the drive wasn't too terrible except for the day it stormed. I'm still pumped!

8/21/2010 10:47:31 AM

lucked out and got a 4bedroom house all to myself within walking distance for dirt cheap, she pretty much went on vacation and forgot that school was starting so she never got it rented out beforehand

i literally have rule of the house, plus it's furnished, plus I won't be wasting gas so looks like the commute is over as of Thursday. i didn't even get to try the train . i was just hoping for the experience. maybe ill use it on the weekend to get home or something.

8/24/2010 9:18:10 PM

^ um that is awesome. who cares about the train. take it on the weekend. this is going to make your life 89374293840738 times easier. you should be counting your blessings!!! not everyone's law school experience was filled with amazing happenstances (is that even a word?)

how was bootcamp. do they still call it that? let me know what your schedule is (prof wise)

8/25/2010 2:36:31 AM

^^Wow. That's fantastic. Good luck when classes start. I have an intensive session of Trial Advocacy to kick off my 3L year that starts tomorrow!

8/25/2010 7:56:39 AM

^^^Congrats. That has to be a relief.

8/25/2010 8:31:45 AM

my schedule is

Let's Study - Peters
Civ Pro - Fink
Contracts - Levine
Property - Gilmore
Torts - Grant
Legal Method and Comm - Parrish
Legal Research - Burke

Legal Method and Comm is at 8:30 on Tuesdays and Let's Study (optional) is at 9:30 on Thursdays but other than that I don't have classes till 10am which is pretty sweet

8/26/2010 6:24:41 AM

oh jk. let's study is optional. at first i thought it was a class. i was like, wtf. yea, i didn't find those things helpful but maybe marty has gotten better.

the only people on your list i've had are fink and grant. both of whom are AWESOME. 2 of my fav profs, esp fink. grant is going to seem like a hardass but when (if) you take her for electives later she is like super nice. i don't know how fink is in the core courses cause i only had him for electives, but he is awesome and someone i plan on staying in touch with.

[Edited on August 26, 2010 at 2:55 PM. Reason : .]

8/26/2010 2:54:51 PM

results come today

oh my god

i don't think i can open mine.

8/28/2010 1:08:14 PM

I opened mine. And I passed. Good luck to everyone else receiving results today.

8/28/2010 4:18:27 PM

Congratulations!!

8/28/2010 6:03:18 PM

i really really really really dislike legal writing class. which bums me out in and of itself because i LOVE all my other classes and the professors. its ruining being able to love all of it.

i know it's second week and all and i'll probably come to find reasons to dislike things but me and legal writing are not starting off on the right foot.

8/31/2010 2:38:06 PM

Just curious, what exactly do you not like about it??

I don't think anyone likes legal writing...at least not at first.

Do you not like the citation rules?? They are ridiculous. Legal Writing in the real world sucks as well...so I can tell you that it doesn't get any better. I think it only becomes bearable when you've been practicing for 20+ years and you have examples for almost everything and all you have to do is fill-in blanks.

I guess you just have to look at it like, "well everyone else hate's this shit too...so at least I'm not alone."

8/31/2010 2:41:34 PM

its once a week, the teacher hates feeling rushed, we hate feeling rushed, we all hate being in there at 8:30am considering otherwise noone would have any classes before 10am

today not one single person did the homework from the last week correctly because he rushed trying to explain it to us so we had to spend an entire class relearning something that was on track to be done last week

id rather have online homework to do throughout the week with miniseminars to follow then pile on things we havent fully learned and say get it done somehow by next week but dont worry because we'll reteach it all over again

i'm not kidding when i say noone got it right, in all other classes there are always at least those people eager to volunteer to explain how they got their answers and whatnot which i would say i'm one of. he literally had to drag everything out of us today and most of us started our sentences with "well now that we've gone over it again i'm sure i'm wrong but...."

8/31/2010 3:21:23 PM

legal writing, legal research and appellate adv were some of my favorite required classes. LOVED THEM. i know legal writing is way different than regular research paper writing though, but for some reason i caught one easily.

just keep at it - i have no idea who your prof is because they've gotten so many new ones but i know that was an area that took most of my classmates awhile to be comfortable with.

do you think its just the class time or his/her teaching that is making it so difficult? there seems to have been some turnover in the legal research/writing dept...so i'm not sure if there has been difficulty with the profs or what??

8/31/2010 5:33:33 PM

he's from Indiana so I'm pretty sure he's new, he said he's used to teaching it twice a week so he'll see if he can't get the school to give us an "extra" classroom day

8/31/2010 11:35:23 PM

yeah, well my legal research and writing class is only one credit but we have it four times a week, so it could always be different. i don't mind it, but if you're complaining about your only class that you hate and it's one time a week, it could always be worse.

9/1/2010 1:06:51 AM

overrated

9/1/2010 8:25:32 AM

overall im enjoying the whole experience, i guess legal writing is just the one source of stress so far

9/1/2010 8:32:28 AM

legal writing sucks until what you're writing actually matters, in my experience. It's fun in moot court, but if I'm writing it for my professor to put some red marks on... then fuck that shit!

But if you really enjoy that horrible class, then good for you!

9/1/2010 7:22:31 PM

passed the bar exam!

9/2/2010 11:19:39 PM

congratulations. enjoy your new career.

9/2/2010 11:24:05 PM

I'm in the same '13 class as TGL, but in the exact opposite section, so all of my teachers are different.

Property with Rivers-James
Torts with Katz
Civ Pro with Garza
Contracts with Gabriel
Legal Writing with Conners
Research with Wasson

civ pro is sooo dry... I mean some of the points are interesting and often critical to how our system works as it does, but damn, reading 10 pages of the same idea from the 1800's is rough...

I am definitely putting in more work than i did in undergrad, but i'm not surprised, i'm pretty involved in class and have been trying to branch out with other students. Some of them are well, as TGL probably put it very... errr, interesting, but hey, if they know someone who knows someone who later can get be a job then so much the better, I'm gonna be nice and involved.

I'm going to be taking the patent bar sometime this year, FUN, but i feel pretty good about it overall.

Quote :

"No offense, but if he didn't get in the other schools, then he should wait out a year, and try again. In this economy, I don't think it's a good idea to go to a mediocre private school to rack up tons of debt, and then come out with no job prospect (like khcadwal)"

I'm glad to find that there is still a strong need for patent / science based IP law work, even with the crap economy currently, and having that Bio degree is a plus in that aspect. Shit, even if i never do law I'll find something that I can fit into. In 3 years the job market should be much better than it is now, even with people trying to flood into the field and the schools.

9/7/2010 12:14:20 AM

got sworn in today...hourly rate goes up tomorrow.

9/8/2010 1:19:45 AM

congrats, feel like contributing to the twwers in law school debt fund?

9/8/2010 1:35:54 AM