the worst thing about this season is that it's made me completely apathetic

in the past, i would spend a lot of time reading articles between episodes, thinking about different theories and ideas

now i just don't give a shit. if could skip to the final episode i would

sad for what was once the most interesting & entertaining show to fall apart near the end

4/1/2010 5:13:34 PM

Tell us again that the show is shit

4/1/2010 5:20:15 PM

^^Yea through season 1 and 2 mainly I was really interested in the theories, but once the time travel/locke back from the dead stuff started I LOST interest and now I am just waiting to see how the writers plan on ending the series.

Seasons 1 and 2, even 3... epic

[Edited on April 1, 2010 at 5:21 PM. Reason : .]

4/1/2010 5:21:18 PM

To clarify, the point I was making was that I don't think we have been given enough clues or information to come to any certain conclusion about what caused the alt timeline.

That aside, let me see what I think happened. I get duro's point that the bomb going off by itself couldn't have caused the alternate timeline. However, I think it's possible that everything that we've seen happen in the show up to the bomb going off caused the split in time, i.e. when people started to time-travel, that's when the timelines started to split and the alt-timeline was formed. So Season 5 would be the genesis of the alt-timeline. I also think it's possible that the trigger going off somehow "corrected" the time-travelers, sending them off the island to their proper place and their proper time/age. However, I also think it somehow caused the island to gradually sink over time (allowing Roger Workman and Ben enough time to escape it), and the alt-timeline is what is happening right now with the island sunk.

4/1/2010 6:13:56 PM

quoting this since no one reads the 49th post and so you can all eat my shit when i'm right

Quote :

"i wonder if widmore somehow knows about the other timeline and desmond's ability to time or consciousness travel or whatever he does and intends to expose desmond to one of the pockets of EM energy on the island in order to make him shift between the two realities like he supposedly did in the season premiere"

Quote :

"the worst thing about this season is that it's made me completely apathetic in the past, i would spend a lot of time reading articles between episodes, thinking about different theories and ideas now i just don't give a shit. if could skip to the final episode i would sad for what was once the most interesting & entertaining show to fall apart near the end"

cuse/lindelof said that the alternate timeline is very important and is supposed to lead to a holy shit mind blown moment when we see what it is, which will then make everything that seems stupid in season 6 look much more relevant. chill out and trust the writers. if i'm wrong then quote this at the end of the season and shove it in my face.

Quote :

"Roger Workman"

you mean roger linus....unless you're making a hurley joke

[Edited on April 1, 2010 at 6:23 PM. Reason : .]

4/1/2010 6:18:46 PM

Hurley joke.

4/1/2010 6:29:59 PM

I too read 80% of books and call them shit.

I'm astraladvent and I approved this message

4/1/2010 6:36:50 PM

So, Rat Soup, to be clear, your main point is that we don't know for certain yet exactly what the alternate timeline is/represents, right?

4/1/2010 6:38:39 PM

yeah that and not knowing that the other timeline has always existed

4/1/2010 8:39:22 PM

Quote :

"i.e. when people started to time-travel, that's when the timelines started to split"

erroneous

we know that they had always traveled back to that time and that the bomb had always gone off for a fact. the writers have been so nurturing to the bottom barrel of viewers that they have all but verbally discussed this.

so, NO, the line did not start when time-travel started

4/1/2010 9:40:28 PM

^What I meant was that the genesis of the alternate timeline started when the characters time-traveled. I'm not saying that the characters in the current timeline didn't time travel or set off the bomb, I'm saying the bomb going off "corrected" the placement of the time-traveling characters in the alternate timeline (placement meaning where they were supposed to be in 1977). So, to be more accurate, the second timeline was created when they started time-traveling, and they began to split when the trigger was detonated. In the current timeline, the plane still crashed, presumably because the EM field wasn't destroyed, and in the alternate timeline, the EM field was destroyed, the island sunk gradually, and the plane never crashed.

This is just what I think. I don't see anything that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's not a possibility. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if it weren't the case, because if there is a surprise in store as to what the alternate timeline actually is, it will probably have nothing to do with the bomb. No need to refer to me as a "bottom barrel viewer", I've been watching this show from the beginning and love it, and I've loved this season so far.

4/1/2010 10:03:08 PM

Quote :

"we know that they had always traveled back to that time and that the bomb had always gone off for a fact."

You can use the picture that Christan showed Sun in the current time to say that they always went back. But how do we know that the bomb went off on that time-line?

4/1/2010 10:45:17 PM

Quote :

"So, to be more accurate, the second timeline was created when they started time-traveling, and they began to split when the trigger was detonated."

yeah but by saying the other timeline started when the time traveling started, wouldn't that imply that everything up til the detonation of the bomb was the same for both timelines? in that case, bizarro sawyer still would've still been 8, not 9, when his dad killed his mom and himself.

4/2/2010 2:07:08 AM

^Yes, it would be implying that everything was the same up until the detonation. As for the Sawyer thing, I don't know, maybe the extra time line caused some sort of weird "bump" in time that made everything happen a year later. Like I said, I could be wrong, this is just my best guess based on what we've been given. But, as you've said and as I've agreed, we haven't been given enough yet to know for sure what it is.

4/2/2010 9:40:40 AM

We haven't been given anything other than the bomb and the fact that things before the bomb are different. [or they fucked up ] If you know exactly what it is, from that based on the track record of this show then i have a few more questions for you gentelmanz

I'm AstalAdvent and i approved this message.

[Edited on April 2, 2010 at 9:46 AM. Reason : `]

4/2/2010 9:45:22 AM

I'm saying that we DON'T know what it is, if you would just pay attention. I've said that multiple times. I'm just making my best educated guess. I said over and over (as did Rat Soup) that we don't really have enough evidence to know for sure either way what caused the alternate timeline. As far as the minor differences before the bomb went off, it could be possible that when the second timeline was created, there were some slight differences in the two that didn't really affect anything in any noticable way, and the big changes in the timelines were put into effect when the bomb went off.

I'm not saying this is the direction they will go in (in fact, the chances are probably small because this would too obvious to make for the mind-blowing moment the writers are going for with the meaning/cause of the alt-timeline). I am saying that I'm not willing to dismiss this as a possibility.

4/2/2010 10:06:49 AM

then i'm obviously not talking to you.

I'm AstralAdvent and I approved this message.

4/2/2010 10:07:54 AM

I don't think anyone has been so bold as to definitively say they know what caused the varied outcome.

Quote :

"You can use the picture that Christan showed Sun in the current time to say that they always went back. But how do we know that the bomb went off on that time-line"

The bomb has always gone off. There have been several clues, one of which being that dr. chang's hand was crushed during the incident.

Since we do know that the bomb always went off, which means the bomb had gone off without neutralizing the energy pocket the very in the timeline where the losties crashed. this would make it very unlikely the fission core made any time transition.

but we can move on we don't need to belabor this any more. Tuesday is only a few days away.

4/2/2010 1:02:42 PM

don't think this is a spoiler since it's more speculation than anything else, but it does pertain to the alternate timeline



SPOILER




































































apparently people who have read the scripts up to the second to last episode think the alternate timeline is an epilogue . i'm hoping they're wrong since this show has had a tendency to go in the complete opposite direction as expected in the past.

























































































/SPOILER

4/2/2010 1:12:05 PM

^^That doesn't make sense. Just because the trigger didn't neutralize the EM pocket in one timeline automatically means it didn't neutralize the EM pocket in the other timeline? No. I'm not ruling out the possibility that the bomb/trigger going off was a big factor (not the sole factor) in the timeline split.

^So I guess this week's episode won't change the conversation...That sucks. I hope that speculation isn't accurate. That wouldn't exactly blow my mind.

[Edited on April 2, 2010 at 1:16 PM. Reason : .]

4/2/2010 1:13:45 PM

Quote :

"The bomb has always gone off. There have been several clues, one of which being that dr. chang's hand was crushed during the incident."

that's not a clue that the bomb went off

4/2/2010 1:17:38 PM

Quote :

"Since we do know that the bomb always went off"

nah, we don't know that for certain. His hand was crushed before the bomb would have gone off, not as a result of it going off. It takes a bit of a leap to directly link the too.

I'm not saying it's not a reasonable leap, but you're argument isn't as rock solid as you seem to think.

4/2/2010 2:10:01 PM

we have seen evidence of the hand being crushed before. we found out the hand was crushed as a result of the lostie-initiated altercation that took place at the site which led to detonation of the bomb. being a device and not a person makes it unlikely that the bomb's behavior would be any different.

i mean, listen to yourselves. you're basically suggesting that in this circular timeline that one of the many times history continue to repeat the bomb magically went off when it failed to under all other iterations. to me that seems highly implausible which leads me to conclude the bomb has always gone off and that forthcoming of events that happened continuing to happen is further evidence of that.

4/2/2010 2:41:12 PM

Quote :

"we found out the hand was crushed as a result of the lostieradzinsky-initiated altercation that took place at the site"

fixed it for you

Quote :

"i mean, listen to yourselves. you're basically suggesting that in this circular timeline that one of the many times history continue to repeat the bomb magically went off when it failed to under all other iterations."

maybe i've grasped this concept in the past and have since forgotten because i can't keep everything from this show straight all the time, but if it always went off then how would the EM pocket have existed for the button to be pushed? feel free to call me an idiot if this has been settled before.

[Edited on April 2, 2010 at 2:47 PM. Reason : s]

[Edited on April 2, 2010 at 2:55 PM. Reason : .]

4/2/2010 2:47:40 PM

Quote :

"device and not a person makes it unlikely that the bomb's behavior would be any different. "

Actually, the device went off because Juliet -- a person -- hit it with a rock. Again, I'm not saying you're wrong... just that your points don't quite support your claim, at least not conclusively.


Personally, I think the bomb either always went off... or it never went off. And even if it did go off on one time-line and not the other, I don't really care because it's not the cause but simply a difference like all the other differences.

4/2/2010 3:55:15 PM

^^ it was a lostie initiated incident because regardless radzinksy would have been there working on the swan. it was due to lostie interaction that dr. chang became concerned and went to the site to stop it. the lostie attack is what gave chang the opportunity to get close to the drill site and that is what ultimately resorted in his hand being smashed.

to further address your questions it was mentioned explicitly in the show that perhaps it was the fission trigger igniting that required the button to be pressed every 108 minutes and that the strong EM pocket would have otherwise been stable.


^are you suggesting juliet did not always hit the bomb? because in that series of events we have evidence of things always happening as they did before and have as of yet to see a conclusive deviation. for example, the losties kate,jack,hurley previously went back in time, the losties Kate jack hurley sawyer and jin previously disappeared from that time, the island always skipped around with sawyer juliet et al bouncing around time, chang previously lost his hand, farraday previously approached charlotte, etc.... After all of these continuous occurrence you're suggesting juliet deviated from course and blew up the bomb when it otherwise never did. i just can't get down on that.

You an say my claim isn't definitive but there are mounds more evidence supporting my position than yours. i prefer evidence to conjecture.

4/2/2010 4:15:15 PM

Did you read the last part of my previous post? What conjecture is coming from me?

All i've said is that your evidence is by no means conclusive. That's not the same as saying "I believe X", just that I don't believe the evidence you're providing absolutely, w/o question, supports your claim. Regardless of my ideas (which if you read the last part of that post you would know aren't necessarily out of line with yours), your evidence isn't entirely conclusive.

They also beat the "what happened, always happened" mantra into our heads. And then Faraday said he was wrong and that "people are the variables." - so, who the hell knows.

There are a lot of things that are "very likely" but that doesn't mean there's definitive proof at the moment.

[Edited on April 2, 2010 at 4:38 PM. Reason : aren't]

4/2/2010 4:38:10 PM

Quote :

"to further address your questions it was mentioned explicitly in the show that perhaps it was the fission trigger igniting that required the button to be pressed every 108 minutes and that the strong EM pocket would have otherwise been stable."

was this when miles made the comment about their plan potentially being what caused the incident? and i don't think the energy pocket would've otherwise been stable since radzinsky intended to drill into it regardless of whether or not the losties were there to detonate the bomb. the whole panic was over what would happen if the DI tapped into that pocket of energy.

Quote :

"for example, the losties kate,jack,hurley previously went back in time, the losties Kate jack hurley sawyer and jin previously disappeared from that time, the island always skipped around with sawyer juliet et al bouncing around time, chang previously lost his hand, farraday previously approached charlotte, etc...."

but desmond didn't always tell penny in 1996 that he'd call her on christmas eve 2004. i know it was a different kind of time traveling than what the losties did in 1977, but he was able to influence outcomes in his present moment by doing things he had never done before in his past.

and i don't buy widmore and hawking pushing faraday to the island so he could one day end up in 1977 to be shot by his own mother because "what happened happened" and you can't change the past. that's bullshit. no parent would do that. ever. i know it's a tv show, but still. there has to be more to that situation regarding widmore and hawking's true intentions, and maybe it has something to do with the creation of an alternate reality that they somehow deemed necessary and knew that their son would play a big part in it.

[Edited on April 2, 2010 at 4:52 PM. Reason : faraday]

4/2/2010 4:47:39 PM

4/3/2010 6:12:59 PM

Hope the alternate time lines are an epilogue cuz i called that shit forever ago, its the safest move they could make, but i think they're going about it the wrong way / rather there should be a lot less of it.


but since i'm usually wrong its probably something else

I'm AstralAdvent and i approved this message.

[Edited on April 3, 2010 at 6:28 PM. Reason : ]

4/3/2010 6:27:39 PM

Quote :

"Hope the alternate time lines are an epilogue cuz i called that shit forever ago, its the safest move they could make, but i think they're going about it the wrong way / rather there should be a lot less of it. but since i'm usually wrong its probably something else"

i guess it would be the safest move, but considering the writers said they're all gonna go into hiding after the finale i feel like the show will have a pretty open ended conclusion rather than, "hey everyone this is what all the losties are doing in this alternate reality." i know i've always been saying the bizarro characters would have to merge with the ones on the island, but until recently i didn't consider that maybe they'll end up with the knowledge of events that occurred on the island without them ever ending up there. but in that case i guess the timelines wouldn't actually merge.

4/3/2010 6:38:17 PM

from facebook:

Quote :

"With only 6 new episodes left before the series finale, Desmond wakes up on The Island tonight at 9|8c on ABC and it’s not quite finished with him yet. Tonight’s episode title is “Happily Ever After”…but for whom?"

desmond

4/6/2010 1:59:41 PM

jacob wears vibram fivefingers!

4/6/2010 2:09:34 PM

More wild speculation (when I should be working). Since we've been exposed to Christian, Jack, David Shephard, the Kwons and Ji-Yeon, etc., obviously there is some reason they focus on several generations of characters.

What if the list of candidates is not so much an individual person, but some sort of bloodline, like the Shephard family? When Jacob and MiB are talking about how 'they come and get corrupted', it could mean subsequent generations of the family. But with each iteration, Jacob is getting closer to finding the perfect choice.

Which could tie in to why suddenly babies couldn't be born on the island. Was it a ploy by MiB to basically cut off each line before they could reproduce?

Not sure how this would tie in to Hurley and some of the others, but mostly I'm bored and ready for tonight's episode.

4/6/2010 2:44:24 PM

while i don't sign on to any of that i really would like to know why babies couldn't be born.

i've suspected it was because of the bomb explosion always going off, but would like to know definitively. Whatever it was the event took place after 1977.

4/6/2010 5:25:04 PM

wait how did they end up in the water?

i looked away for a second. was he swerving to miss something?

4/6/2010 9:28:32 PM

no, it was charlie being a nutjob

4/6/2010 9:39:23 PM

charlie grabbed the wheel and made them swerve into the water

4/6/2010 9:39:42 PM

oh ok thanks

that episode was better than the last one at least

4/6/2010 10:03:01 PM

omg

wtf


bbq

4/6/2010 10:03:29 PM

welp, gonna need to watch that one over again. and flashes before your eyes. and the constant. and probably the variable.

4/6/2010 10:07:49 PM

This episode wasn't terrible, but again, there weren't any developments. We found out that Desmond can still switch between timelines (but not willingly) and that the other timeline is some sort of life 'they never should've had' or some such nonsense. So, what do we even take from this episode? That alt timeline=bad and island timeline=good and Desmond has to keep them from detonating the bomb? Was that the point of this episode?

Plus, it was a little bit murky of an episode.

[Edited on April 6, 2010 at 10:14 PM. Reason : .]

4/6/2010 10:12:48 PM

what were the numbers on the MRI machine?

4/6/2010 10:13:30 PM

That episode was terrible. May be the last I watch.

4/6/2010 10:18:16 PM

Quote :

"That episode was terrible. May be the last I watch."

any episode with no kate is a good episode. fuck you.

4/6/2010 10:19:28 PM

^^Quinn the Quitter.

Next week's episode will be good, I feel it.

4/6/2010 10:22:57 PM

^

What happens happens.

4/6/2010 10:27:51 PM

Quote :

"That episode was terrible."

4/6/2010 10:32:26 PM

i thought the sun and jin episode was terrible

i thought this episode was a slight step up from terrible

at least it wasn't 100% boring as shit. only like 75%.

4/6/2010 10:41:00 PM

set em up

4/6/2010 10:46:07 PM