33

^ haha, only if i win the lottery, otherwise i will be paying off my own law school debts starting in Nov.

[Edited on September 9, 2010 at 10:56 AM. Reason : .]

9/9/2010 10:55:47 AM

Anyone know of any open paralegal positions around Raleigh/Durham?

9/10/2010 11:31:07 AM

ugh

10/12/2010 7:57:09 PM

i concur

lol, i'm kinda sad but happy at the same time to find out that i'm average. i've made the exact average score on both midterms and the one large paper we've had so far. i'm only upset because i came out of both exams thinking i had really kicked ass and then having the teacher explain why there was another BEST answer even if mine was a good one

10/12/2010 8:06:32 PM

Quote :

"having the teacher explain why there was another BEST answer even if mine was a good one"

welcome to the next 3 years of your life

10/12/2010 9:52:46 PM

Finished Trial Ad today!! And I won! Great course, tons of work, but it is a highly rewarding experience.

10/12/2010 10:59:18 PM

Quote :

"MOOT COURT COMPETITION"

10/13/2010 2:10:31 AM

ok so i need people who are not 1Ls to tell me if i'm overreacting or not

we had a quiz and one of the questions concerned whether telephone threats could amount to assault

i chose that telephone threats without some other act cannot be construed as an assault

the teacher thinks the answer is that "it could amount to assault if the threat of a battery was imminent" to which i sent out an email asking her isn't there a clear difference between "threat of a battery was imminent" (the threat being the part of the sentence qualified as imminent, not the battery) and the actual battery being perceived as imminent (imminent apprehension as the restatement puts it)

she says "thanks for voicing your concern. the answer stands". thanks, that really helps me understand better.

10/13/2010 8:18:56 PM

who do you have for torts?

your best bet is to learn the elements the way your professor teaches them (the EXACT way in which your prof phrases them)

i heard this several times in law school: you take the professor, not the course

anyway, if you are really having trouble understanding, then make that clear to the prof. the response to the email you got makes it seem like your prof just thought you were trying be one of those people that picks every answer apart in an attempt to show that you are right. just make it clear that you actually don't understand and that you're not trying to get your grade changed.

10/13/2010 9:16:39 PM

First, I can see how you feel your professor wasn't helpful in her response. You were asking for clarification on the answer, and explaining your thought processes, hoping that she would in turn explain why that was the correct answer, and show you where your rationale was not correct.

Without knowing exactly how you phrased the tone of your email, or your relationship with that professor overall, I would first check back at the email and make sure that there is no way it could have been interpreted as being argumentative or snarky in its tone. If that's the case, then even if your prof could have responded diplomatically, there's a chance you got the result you did because it was just seen as whining. If that isn't the case, then I would chalk it up to miscommunication, or actually a lack of communication at all apparently.

As to the answer itself, here's how I would have responded.

The ACTUAL imminence of the threat is immaterial. Assault is about the apprehension of the victim, so whether the threat was actually imminent or not is not relevant, only the perception of the victim. So while there may be an ACTUAL difference between the threat on the one hand being imminent (as in, I am outside your house and will attack you right now) vs. it being perceived as imminent (I am not outside your house, but you think I am), what matters for the crime/tort (you haven't really explained whether you're learning this through Crim. Law or Torts, but I'd guess the latter) of assault is the state of mind of the victim.

To prove your answer would not be correct, I would give you one example where the threat alone would constitute an assault.

If I call you up and say I'm going to shoot you, then that could easily be assault if you had a reasonable fear that I was going to come driving by the house right then and shoot the place up (think Boyz in the Hood). Although there is only a threat over the phone, the apprehension of a battery could be there, even absent any other actions.


[Edited on October 14, 2010 at 12:08 AM. Reason : j]

10/14/2010 12:01:53 AM

yeah this is for Torts

Quote :

"If I call you up and say I'm going to shoot you, then that could easily be assault if you had a reasonable fear that I was going to come driving by the house right then and shoot the place up (think Boyz in the Hood). Although there is only a threat over the phone, the apprehension of a battery could be there, even absent any other actions."

we had a case (Brower v. Ackerly) and basically this guy was getting anonymous phone calls saying they were going to cut him up, no assault because even though he was scared he had no reason to believe these people knew where he lived or were anywhere in the area at the time which is basically the same scenario she gave us in the hypo on the quiz, a guy was told he was being followed and people were after him and would get him at his home. there wasn't any reasonable circumstance or action that would lead him to be in imminent apprehension of a battery.

i truly think she just doesn't want to throw out ANOTHER question because she threw one out already when someone else argued that serious emotional distress is not the same as severe emotional distress 5 minutes before I tried to make my argument. there were a few other questions where the entire class was up in arms about the answer and she was probably barraged with similar emails like mine but i don't feel that makes it any less wrong.

10/14/2010 9:34:25 AM

oh i see, you have grants for torts

seriously, learn the elements EXACTLY word for word the way she teaches them and you will be fine. just memorize what she teaches you WORD FOR WORD. i got an A in both parts of torts. also, she isn't worth arguing with. she will RARELY throw out answers. i'm surprised she did so already. and definitely make sure your email didn't come off as snarky at all. if you really want help, GO TO HER OFFICE. she will gladly explain the difference to you there. with her, it is way better than email. and she can come off as a real bitch 1L year, but her elective courses are actually fantastic and she is a really great person/professor. super nice and understanding. but 1L year she is superbitch. go to her office though seriously.

i really can't help you because i still don't really understand why you are confused about the answer. but it is also because i learned torts HER way and have trouble seeing it through 1L eyes. but she is very willing to help if you go to office hours. showing that kind of effort wins big points with her emails questioning her answers will get you negative points with her - and you don't want to be on her bad side!

[Edited on October 14, 2010 at 1:45 PM. Reason : .]

10/14/2010 1:45:02 PM

I'm a torts TA - gonna have to field these questions from the 1Ls for 2 hours on Wed. YAY!!!!

10/16/2010 9:12:12 AM

On a side note, how would you like to argue with my Torts professor. Not only did he write the casebook, he is also one of the guys writing the fucking Restatement.

10/16/2010 1:00:14 PM

my torts professor picked the same scab on his scalp the entire year, until it bled, and would flick it.

he would also spit all over the first two rows, where i sat, whenever he said most words.

god, i hated that guy. it's been a LONG time since i've been out of my 1st year of law school, and i still remember him pwning me on Garrett v. Dailey. he fucking destroyed me for 3 straight days. the second day, i knew it was coming, and wore some old band shirt with a target on it. i think that just pissed him off more. i went to law school in the midwest, and the dude mocked my southern accent, intellect, preparation... everything... for 3 days.

it also resulted in me meeting a lot of people very early on that i'm still friends with today, despite being scattered from nyc to la.

10/23/2010 10:41:32 AM

our teachers like to constantly remind us that we are being babied. we don't have to stand to answer a question and when you don't know they will eventually move on to someone who does after about 5 min. i think i'd actually rather prefer to have some more pressure on us but i'm also usually prepared at least to say something

10/23/2010 1:36:35 PM

yeah my con law and evidence professors (they are friends, we see them drinking at the local bar all the time) throw in those insults to our class every once in a while. "if you guys actually read you would know..." and "in your study group last night you should have come up with this" and blah blah blah.

they're my favorite professors though

last lecture we were talking about impeaching witnesses, and he said "what do you all have against us addicts?" lol. very relevant to the class though, that's why i love those guys.

10/23/2010 10:42:59 PM

Quote :

"our teachers like to constantly remind us that we are being babied. we don't have to stand to answer a question and when you don't know they will eventually move on to someone who does after about 5 min."

WTF? they might be right, haha.

our torts guy and our contracts guy made us stand and it was only one person per case for 50 minutes.

none of my other professors made us stand, but no one moved on, no matter how much someone flailed, stammered, stuttered or cried. we had multiple crying girls that first year, and god help you if you tried to assist them when the water works started.

i'm glad they did it, though. no opposing counsel or judge is going to let you off the hook, so might as well learn to be prepared early.

[Edited on October 24, 2010 at 1:19 PM. Reason : .]

10/24/2010 1:18:42 PM

geez elon is getting soft

they didn't make us stand but they would definitely ride people's asses my 1L year. esp dunham and grant.

people cried in both their classes. and if someone couldn't get the answer they'd wait while the person struggled. and while the person was struggling to find the answer, they'd go on some rant about how ill-prepared the class was and blah blah blah. scared the SHIT out of me. i'll never forget civ pro international shoe. that was my day. luckily i read and prepared really well (dunham seriously scared the shit out of me 1L year. she made several people cry and just flat out told several others that they were annoying/stupid/etc). even though i read, i still didn't know every answer and it sucked to be on the spot for like 1/2 the class.

in grant's class if you didn't know the answer the only wan to get out of being hounded was to pick a classmate to transfer the pain to. and you lost points for doing this. that was fine in torts II because by that time you had friends and no one would kill you if you called them out. but for the first few months the people it happened to were loathed by the entire class.

good times. don't know what they're doing now though. apparently babying the babies

but outside of their classes, it wasn't bad at all. but that is their whole thing..."engaged learning." whatever the fuck that means. don't tell people they are being babied when that is the teaching philosophy YOU PEOPLE founded the program on.



[Edited on October 24, 2010 at 3:32 PM. Reason : .]

10/24/2010 3:28:28 PM

well so far Levine in Contracts is the only person to even remotely stick to one person for an extended period of time, even Gilmore seems menacing but will open up the discussion to others eventually. Grant is actually the easiest out of all of the teachers to get out of talking. and Fink keeps us laughing in Civ Pro that we just let him ramble for as long as he wants, we don't use the class as a discussion as much as a good lecture.

like i said, id rather them not baby us since i feel prepared enough to endure it but some of these kids coming straight outta undergrad would cry guaranteed. maybe we'll see it second semester.

10/24/2010 6:55:39 PM

Quote :

"maybe we'll see it second semester."

doubtful. but possibly when y'all get to appellate ad.

and fink is awesome. i don't know any of your other profs!

[Edited on October 24, 2010 at 7:31 PM. Reason : .]

10/24/2010 7:28:44 PM

[Edited on November 3, 2010 at 11:35 PM. Reason : ccc]

11/3/2010 11:11:51 PM

I graduated from Campbell in May (holla to any other grads on here...I didn't scour the thread), and passed the July bar here (NC).

I'm around Raleigh until February, when I'll head off to JAG school for the Army.

I was a TA as a 3L as well, so if anybody has a question they'd rather not post, you can pm me and I'll do my best to help (or just berate you for the idiocy of the question...which is what I'm pretty sure is the standard response of most professors when they just don't understand the question)

11/9/2010 3:10:49 PM

i'm on the lookout for suggestions for summer internships in raleigh and it sounds like the majority of firms now do split summers so i'll need at least two places

as a 1L i'm not feeling compelled toward any one subject matter or another but if i had to choose it would be either business or sports/entertainment contract related, so contracts basically, but i'd go anywhere where the experience would be of great value

11/9/2010 3:40:16 PM

^If you're looking to do split summers, I'd suggest possibly trying to set up one half with a private sector position, and the other with a judge, or something in the public sector.

Even a short-term "clerkship" with a judge can be hugely beneficial, and would likely expose you to a broad range of issues (not to mention probably giving you a solid writing sample at the end). I had a bunch of classmates do that sort of thing around Raleigh.

I never applied for an IOLTA grant (to help make up for taking an unpaid public interest position), but they're worth checking into if you go that route (they may require you to work a minimum number of months, and they're not granted for unpaid jobs with private firms.)

11/9/2010 4:11:42 PM

finally biting the bullet and starting an evening program in the DC area next fall.

ill come back this time next year and complain with the rest of you.

[Edited on November 29, 2010 at 4:46 PM. Reason : .]

11/29/2010 4:39:53 PM

I found these articles interesting

When law school becomes a bad investment
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/30/AR2010103004638.html

Trouble with the law
http://www.economist.com/node/17461573

11/29/2010 4:59:28 PM

It certainly could be a bad investment for people dropping $$$$$$$ on tuition & fees and a lackluster academic record. But if you're going to a public law school, the benefits-vs-costs equation shifts pretty substantially.

http://www.lawdevnull.com/2010/11/is-law-school-really-worth-it/
http://www.lawdevnull.com/2010/11/is-law-school-really-worth-it-part-ii/

---

Agent 0: Good luck! 

12/1/2010 5:53:43 PM

I'd say that a public school could be well worth the lower cost, but the facts are the same if you go either public or private (especially to a lesser-known private school):

1) Gone are the days where having a degree + law license = automatic job.

2) (Captain obvious) Now, more than ever, knowing people who can help you is as important, if not more important than your school choice/chosen extracurriculars/etc.

3) Grades are king, and yet still won't guarantee you anything.

It's probably been said before in here/elsewhere on TWW, but I went to Campbell, which suffers from two problems (1) Lesser known, which the move to Raleigh has helped tremendously; (2) Expensive.

With those problems in mind, I busted my ass through all 3 years and got involved strategically in stuff that I wanted to do, but which would also look great to potential employers (national moot court & trial teams, certain externships, etc).

I was fortunate enough to finish in the top 20% of my class, and had little trouble finding a job (Army JAG attorney...which had ~1% acceptance rate among all applicants).

Too many people take the dive for law school without paying attention to #1 and #3 above. I saw many fellow students who were incurring massive amounts of debt, but weren't doing everything in their power to make sure they did as well as possible.

My class has had an outstanding employment rate for those at the top of the class (which is true at most schools), but the middle/bottom of the class has had its issues. When attorneys with a large amount of experience are trolling the market and taking lower paying jobs, there's never been less incentive for employers to opt for someone who didn't establish themselves as a hard and capable worker during law school.

12/2/2010 12:13:47 PM

I'm going part-time because I already have a job that pays well, and will allow me to go at night, so all I really lose is sleep and free-time. I don't have any desire to go the big firm route, or the "practicing attorney" route at all. In fact, I'm only getting the degree for the long-term development of my career in legislative and regulatory affairs. In DC, the level of education is so skewed toward higher end degrees that a Master's degree is like a Bachelor's. Everyone has one. For me, it can only help. I'm not hurting for money, and the economy in general can really only go up (fast or slow is the real question) at this point, so it makes sense for me.

Also its a nice parachute to have should I ever decide to leave the DC area one day. While not as marketable as before (see BoondockSt's #1), it's good to know that I could extract myself and go do something else that I would still enjoy.

12/2/2010 12:20:10 PM

^My general experience with those going through night programs is that most already have their foot in the door somewhere, or (like you) have a plan/alternative in place before starting, which is great.

Law schools generally are getting more 22 and 23 year olds with no real life experience/time out of college, and no real plan (other than to impress relatives with the "well, I'm a law student" line). The average age of my class was 24-25, and I was one of the few who didn't take any time off before coming back.

The current crop of 1Ls are roughly 85-90% 22-23, and coming straight out of college. The overall work ethic is completely different, and I have a feeling many of them are going to be hit hard when grades come back in late Dec/early January.

12/2/2010 12:54:29 PM

i agree w/ ^. the classes below mine @ Elon are full of 22 and 23 year olds that went to law school right after undergrad, whereas i was one of the younger people in my class (i took a year off). and the class above me probably had a similar age average (if not slightly higher) than mine. more mid-late 20s. it is an interesting dynamic for sure.

12/2/2010 9:28:27 PM

I got an interview with the Director of Admissions at one school up here that I applied to who also teaches a few 1L classes for day and evening program students and he said he prefers the evening students infinitely more because he can tell most of them they know exactly why they want to be there.

12/3/2010 10:18:03 AM

BoondockSt: It might just be my cynicism talking, but I think #2 is the biggest factor of the 3 you listed. More accurately, #2's corollary: it's not who you know, but whether or not you have the people skills to get to know them

My (admittedly unscientific) sampling of folks I've met at UNCCH / Duke / NCCU / Campbell tells me there are a ton of aspiring attorneys with personalities about as interesting as pocket lint -- no matter how stellar someone's grades are, no one wants to hire a new law grad who can't do their part to keep a basic conversation going. It's typically the smart kids who agitate the sh*t out of their study group partners that are ending up unemployed.

There are plenty of folks here at NCCU who are right around middle of the class (45% mark in my case) but still found well-paying jobs and summer associateships. I know mine certainly wasn't because of my grades, so I'm trying to convince myself it was my charming personality

On a partially-related side note, how's the Army JAG thing working out? I was planning to go USMC JAG myself, but I failed the PFT b/c I'm a fatass who can't run to save his life...  

12/4/2010 1:50:33 AM

Based on everything I've seen so far, I agree that networking is extremely important in finding a job. The simple fact is, if you are interviewing two candidates for a job, and you personally know one of them, even if in only a limited way, then all things being equal in other respects, that's the one who gets the job.

But there is one other thing to factor in that relates to that. The prestige of the school you attend will determine to a significant extent the number of influential alumni and other individuals who may be able to help you. To use the extreme example, if you are at Harvard, there are a whole lot more graduates and people in positions of power and influence to help you get the job you want who attended Harvard than there are who are in those same positions of power from George Mason. People are likely to help those who came from the same place they did. It's one of the reasons you can search the Martindale-Hubbell connections based on undergraduate university and law school.

12/4/2010 5:04:44 AM

slogging through finals....

2/4 done

i hate legal writing, hate...

I've been doing pretty good overall though in everything else, A/A- average before the final.

i've got rivers-james for prop (final was ok i think), gabriel for contracts (i got called on just about every single day in that class and carried about 4 people in the class as well), katz for torts (only closed book exam we have so i'm the most anxious about how i did in that one), and Garza for civ pro (we get Dunham next semester for it, should prove interesting)

see, i plan on taking the patent bar here pretty soon, and patent attorneys you see, are rare....

12/4/2010 10:26:04 PM

Quote :

"Arab13: see, i plan on taking the patent bar here pretty soon, and patent attorneys you see, are rare.... "

And well-paid. Don't forget the $$$$

Are you doing anything in particular to prep for the patent bar? I'm still debating between going the patent route, and forsaking the cash to do criminal prosecution...

12/4/2010 11:39:55 PM

i took a patent bar prep course, classroom lecture, a great binder demonstrating various aspects of the exam and tested sections, also has practice tests and binders, PRG i think.

12/5/2010 2:24:43 AM

I'd love to go the patent route (taken just about all the IP classes UNC offers), but I'm a few courses short of qualifying to sit for the exam, and I really don't want to take any more classes after graduation in May.

12/5/2010 10:03:26 AM

half done with 1L exams

so far so ok

12/5/2010 11:19:57 AM

I love school and exams this is so awesome yay.

12/5/2010 6:48:19 PM

Quote :

"i took a patent bar prep course, classroom lecture, a great binder demonstrating various aspects of the exam and tested sections, also has practice tests and binders, PRG i think."

Just make sure to memorize as many of the questions from October 2003, April 2003, and October 2002 released exams as you can.

They were easily 35-40% of my test, repeated verbatim.

Also make sure you've practiced extensively with the PDF searching. This test seriously is not what you know going in - it's can you find it once you're in there. I did the whole binder of knowledge thing too and it's a nice background for patent practice but has relatively little application to the exam itself.

If you PM me an email address I can send you some flashcards I got from someone else with those 2002-2003 questions and answers on them.

12/6/2010 7:45:26 AM

Quote :

"BoondockSt: It might just be my cynicism talking, but I think #2 is the biggest factor of the 3 you listed. More accurately, #2's corollary: it's not who you know, but whether or not you have the people skills to get to know them"

I agree completely, although my ordering was more random rather than well thought out ranks. There were a few people at the top of my class who were the equivalent of cardboard boxes in terms of personality, and they struggled to get hired, even for internships during school. They'd get tons of call backs, and get invites to interview for the top firms/govt orgs, but never quite crossed the finish line.

It's still critically important to know people who can help you, even with the best of personalities.

Case in point: Before the JAG application process I got the chance to meet a guy named General Bill Suter (current clerk of the U.S. Supreme Court). We stayed in touch, and I ran into him at a couple other functions, including at a conference I went to and spoke at out in Phoenix. We caught up afterwards, and he offered to write me a letter of recommendation when he found out I was still tracking on JAG. Aside from the fact that it was a letter from a guy who maintains close connections with guys like Colin Powell and Adm. Mullen, it was really powerfully written (I've kept a copy in a frame to this day).

Quote :

"On a partially-related side note, how's the Army JAG thing working out? I was planning to go USMC JAG myself, but I failed the PFT b/c I'm a fatass who can't run to save his life... "

It hasn't quite started yet...I'm in the 184th Judge Advocate Officer Basic Course, which starts on Feb. 6th. I should find out my permanent duty station by the first week in January though. If you're interested, stick with it. The physical fitness stuff will come in time if you keep chipping away at it.

Quote :

"The prestige of the school you attend will determine to a significant extent the number of influential alumni and other individuals who may be able to help you."

I think this is true to a certain extent, but I'd argue that there's an even stronger bond of loyalty among those who go to smaller schools. While schools like UNC regularly crank out a couple hundred graduates or more (whose alums no doubt look favorably upon them), a smaller school has a tighter net within any given state.

Take Iowa: You have two law schools there: Iowa (large & dominant public school), and Drake (small school). Most people who practice law in Iowa are Iowa grads, and Iowa lawyers are a dime a dozen there. Iowa grads likely cast a favorable eye towards fellow graduates, but Drake has established a really strong foothold in the state, and its alums (who exist in Iowa's shadow) look out for one another much more than grads from other schools. Call it a chip on the shoulder or whatever, but it's just the reality (and it exists other places as well).

The key difference is if you want to go to a small school, and then practice out of the state that school is in. Your chances of landing a job in some out of state market (especially in a large city) are probably markedly higher if you went to a school with name recognition. It doesn't necessarily speak to the quality of the school or education, but it's the same idea with college sports (i.e. if you talked to someone from Nebraska about great college basketball teams in the ACC, they'd probably jump to Duke and UNC, but wouldn't necessarily recognize other lesser known teams that have still done well recently).

Good luck to everyone in the middle of exam season!

12/6/2010 4:46:46 PM

^ When I tell people I went to undergraduate at NC State and they say "Oh, the Tarheels?" I want to stab my own eyeballs. That and people getting NC and SC confused.

12/6/2010 6:10:53 PM

kicked ass on my contracts exam (i feel), just have civ pro left on friday and then it's breaktime!

12/7/2010 4:44:08 PM

Good luck w/ the CivPro exam!

Ks kicked my ass my 1L year

12/10/2010 7:58:10 AM

Done with this semester! Heading downtown to pick up an extra copy of my birth certificate, and getting my fingerprints done and the Bar Application will be ready to turn in!! SOO excited.

12/10/2010 9:21:31 AM

CivPro (was only a semester for us - we had Dunham...omg Intl Shoe was my day I will ALWAYS remember that case) was the hardest exam of my life

and somehow i got an A+ in the class. my only one in law school

i seriously thought i was going to get an F

12/10/2010 1:00:31 PM

FUCK CIV PRO

that test was hard as shit. but im all done for the semester now! contracts exam seemed the easiest but its also my favorite teacher/class

12/10/2010 2:29:25 PM

How's job hunting going?

12/10/2010 9:43:32 PM