Quote :

"The fact you guys caught the boomer-Kennedy-lust from your Parents isn't my problem. The Great Society has impacted your lives far more than The New Frontier. And it wasn't because of any pretty speeches. It was because we had a politican that played politics (the horror). DEAL WITH IT!"

The Great Society was a direct result of Kennedy's New Frontier. So, you are arguing that the following has no impact on anything and are just empty victories?

Trade Expansion Act
amending the Fair Labor and Standards Act
the 1961 Omnibus Housing Bill
Manpower Training and Development Act
Mental Retardation Facilities and Community Mental Health Centers Construction Act
Equal Pay Act
Juvenile Delinquency and Youth Offenses Control Act

I also guess you discount the creation of Navy Seals and the Air Forces 1st Air Commando Unit, and other counter insurgency measures of the Kennedy Administration. I guess he failed in preventing an escalation of the Cold War when he stood up to the Soviet Union during the Cuban Missie Crisis. Getting the United States Space program off to a running start was another failure? And I assume the Partial Test Ban Treaty was another failure?

Quote :

"PS* I would note that Kennedy had the benefit of having a Democratically controlled House and Senate."

Sectionalism was the word of the day, not partisanship

and for the record numbnuts, my parents didn't like Kennedy. We all know your reason for maligning Kennedy is because Kennedy's family is comparing Obama to Kennedy. You are doing yourself a disservice.

Quote :

"yes. the "great society" has royally fucked us all to hell. Thanks FDR!"

If you are going to talk shit about Presidential programs, you might want to know who was president when those programs were implemented.

[Edited on May 21, 2008 at 7:31 AM. Reason : .]

5/21/2008 7:30:50 AM

everybody always forgets, it all comes down to ohio and florida.

funny thing: hillary won both of those. lol

5/21/2008 7:31:31 AM

nutsmakr,

Wow. Congrats for copying and pasting a list of acts from the very same wikipedia article you posted on the last page. They certainly carry more weight now.

I never said Kennedy was the "do-nothing" President. I said his Presidency was marked by few legislative accomplishments. The fact these are the best you (or Wikipedia anyways) can come up with is pretty indicative of that fact. Was setting up mental retardation facilities REALLY at the top of Kennedy's Health Care to-do list? The list only looks worse when you compare it with the accomplishments made under Johnson.

Realizing this, you seek to extend Kennedy's list of accomplishments by saying the Great Society was "the result" of the New Fronteir. How so? Some mushy influence Kennedy has like "inspiration"? What a very pretty, and unprovable idea.

PS* I'm suprised you don't add the income tax cuts Kennedy called for in 1961(?) to your list. It was essentially the first example of a President using economic theory to justify fiscal action to smooth the business cycle (FDR took a more shot-gun approach and hoped something would stick). This is an approach that has been duplicated (in refined form) by Presidents all the way up to GW BUsh. Obama made similar proposals himself earlier this year.

[Edited on May 21, 2008 at 8:19 AM. Reason : ``]

5/21/2008 7:57:39 AM

It's called ground work. Just like the New Deal laid the ground work for the New Frontier, the New Frontier laid the ground work for the Great Society. The major difference is that the Great Society was an expansion of New Frontier programs that had Kennedy had the time to actually implement would have been his instead of his successor.

Your entire premise is that these great experience statesmen were the true leaders and the unexperienced do-nothing presidents didn't do jack. No matter what is said otherwise. Your hatred of Obama has lead you down a deep dark path in which there is probably not much return available to you. Becareful when you malign a one of the great 20th Century Presidents for being a do-nothing, especially when that President was killed in his 2nd year of office. I get it, you don't like Obama, that does not however; give you the right to carelessly and falsely attack Jack Kennedy.

5/22/2008 11:54:32 AM

^ victory

5/22/2008 12:03:57 PM

Quote :

"The major difference is that the Great Society was an expansion of New Frontier programs that had Kennedy had the time to actually implement would have been his instead of his successor. "

Wow. This is what it takes to declare victory? A baseless assertion of "what would have happened" if Kennedy wasn't assinated?

Look, I am assessing what Kennedy actually did and as I pointed out it was not much. I did NOT say Kennedy was a do-nothing President, I said his presidency was marked by few legislative acheivements. And as I pointed out earlier, the list you copy-and-pasted from Wikipedia is indicative of that fact. And I really don't see how most of the bills you mentioned were laying the ground work for what was accomplished during the Great Society. For example, we couldn't get Medicaid and Medicare (perhaps Johnson's greatest achievements) without setting up facilities for the mentall impaired? That just doesn't follow for me.

And how do you demonstrate that one bill set the "groundwork" for another bill, anyways? Do you just assume that if two bills address similar issues that the oldest one set the "groundwork" for the other? That seems kinda ham handed. Medicare would have probably been created Mental Retardation Facilities and Community Mental Health Centers Construction Act, even though they both nominally sough to improve access to health care.

And would Kennedy really have gotten anything else done in his first term? As I pointed out earlier, Post WWII Presidents tend to get less done (particuarly in domestic affairs) the longer they stay in office. Which only begs the question I asked earlier (that you have still not answered), *what was Kennedy waiting for*?

And please drop the righteous act. "Don't sully the name of ouuurrr grreeeeaatt Prrrresssident". Nothing you said actually backs up the assertion that he was "great", and you are hardly the person to lecture anyone on carelessly criticizing anything. This is the Wolfweb darling. If you don't like it, kick rocks.

PS* Since most of this is just rehashing old statements, so I don't see why I should respond again unless you have something new to add beyond faux righteous indignation.

[Edited on May 22, 2008 at 12:41 PM. Reason : ``]

5/22/2008 12:26:45 PM

You aren't even using a fair metric to judge Kennedy on the matter. You've already given sole credit to Johnson for items that were directly ripped from Kennedy's New Frontier (Tax Cut, Civil Rights Act) that had Kennedy been alive to actually enact 1964, still first term, would have enacted since there is absolutely no evidence to suggest it would have happened otherwise. Furthermore, you are attempting to compare the accomplishments of a 2 year president to a 6 year president. Bravo. You win the award as a dilletente.

5/22/2008 12:38:21 PM

^ Are you even reading my posts (or your own)? I am actually the one pointed out that the Tax Cut was a Kennedy achievement. You didn't have a clue it because it wasn't in the Wikipedia article on the New Frontier.

And would Kennedy have been able to Pass the Civil Rights Act? Maybe. Who knows. At the time of Kennedy's assination, the bill was locked in Committee. It was only allowed to go for a vote after Johnson took office and used his skills to pressure the committee chairman into releasing it. Even your favorite source says so...

Quote :

"The bill was sent to the House of Representatives, and referred to the House Judiciary Committee, chaired by Emmanuel Celler. After a series of hearings on the bill, Celler's committee greatly strengthened the act, adding provisions to ban racial discrimination in employment. The bill was reported out of the Judiciary Committee in November 1963, but was then referred to the Rules Committee, whose chairman, Howard W. Smith, a Democrat from Virginia, indicated his intention to keep the bill bottled up indefinitely. It was at this point that President Kennedy was assassinated. The new president, Lyndon Johnson, utilized his experience in parliamentary politics and the bully pulpit he wielded as president in support of the bill."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964

If you want to say that Kennedy layed the ground work for this particular bill, I will agree. But, of course, you didn't say that. It was not even on your list of Kennedy achievements you copied from Wikipedia. In fact, I'm actually the one that brought it up...once again. Maybe you should not rely on Wikipedia for all your information. Though I still believe Johnson can count this as one of his achievements since he is the one that carried the ball into the inzone. You can disagree if you wish (who deserves more credit is hardly a thing you can quantify).

So like I said earlier. I think this is pretty much the end of the road. I think I have addressed each of your substansive points and the rest is just you pretending you're defending the honor of ouuuurrrr gggrreeeeaaatt, faaalllleeeennn Prreeesssiiiddennnt. So I'll let you hum that tune, but I won't be listening. Catch you on the flip side.

[Edited on May 22, 2008 at 1:01 PM. Reason : ``]

5/22/2008 12:51:39 PM

Quote :

"^ Are you even reading my posts? I am actually the one pointed out the Tax Cut was a Kennedy achievement. You didn't have a clue because it wasn't in the Wikipedia article on the New Fronteir. "

Really socks``, how would you know if I knew about Kennedy's tax cut that went into affect in February of 1964? do tell, I'm waiting, are you clairvoyant? Secondly, you are the individual who took credit away from Kennedy on the 1964 Civil Rights Act, proclaiming adamantly, "It didn't pass until LBJ became President and started dealing directly with Howard Smith and other Democrats who didn't want to see it passed. He signed the bill into law in 1964." Some how equating the success of the bill solely to Johnson. What is you evidence that Kennedy wouldn't have done that? oh that's right, this little gem.

Quote :

"Indeed, Kennedy was primarily in Dallas to start ramping up for re-election (collecting money etc)."

Well guess what johnson was doing from 1963 and all through 1964, that's right "ramping up" for election (collecting money, etc.) So does that mean that only Johnson had the magical ability to multi-task whilst being President?

I see you have decided to ignore Kennedy's foreign policy, when he deftly manouvered us through the Cuban Missile Crisis, got the Partial Test Ban Treaty, or were those solely Johnson too?

I suggest you read some books by Robert Caro, that way you'll at least have relevant knowledge on the subject.

5/22/2008 1:04:43 PM

Quote :

"If you want to say that Kennedy layed the ground work for this particular bill [Civil Rights Act], I will agree. But, of course, you didn't say that. It was not even on your list of Kennedy achievements you copied from Wikipedia. In fact, I'm actually the one that brought it up...once again. Maybe you should not rely on Wikipedia for all your information. Though I still believe Johnson can count this as one of his achievements since he is the one that carried the ball into the inzone. You can disagree if you wish (who deserves more credit is hardly a thing you can quantify). "

[Edited on May 22, 2008 at 1:10 PM. Reason : The man that can see alternative realities bitches about people reading his mind]

5/22/2008 1:09:54 PM

its over for you socks

5/22/2008 1:14:50 PM

Maybe your should rely upon facts when creating your arguments so you don't look like such a complete idiot.

Civil Rights Act Timeline
June 11, 1963 - Kennedy Unveils the Act
June 19, 1963 - Kennedy sends bill to Congress
November 1963 - Bill Reported favorably out of House Judiciary, referred to Committee on Rules
November 22, 1963 - Kennedy Assassinated in Dallas
July 2, 1964 - Johnson signs bill into law

So what could have Kennedy accomplished in those mere days between the bill being reported favorably by the House Judiciary Committee and his assassianation to make sure he could have put his signature on the bill before catching a bullet to the brain, that Johnson wasn't capable of doing for the next 8 months?

So how was Kennedy ineffectual again?

[Edited on May 22, 2008 at 1:17 PM. Reason : .]

5/22/2008 1:15:03 PM

^ I'm nto sure how that contradicts anything I've said.

5/22/2008 1:16:14 PM

Ah. I see. You're assuming that since it was reported favorably, that the legislative battle was over. Maybe you should read the whole Wiki article next time.

Quote :

"The bill was sent to the House of Representatives, and referred to the House Judiciary Committee, chaired by Emmanuel Celler. After a series of hearings on the bill, Celler's committee greatly strengthened the act, adding provisions to ban racial discrimination in employment. The bill was reported out of the Judiciary Committee in November 1963, but was then referred to the Rules Committee, whose chairman, Howard W. Smith, a Democrat from Virginia, indicated his intention to keep the bill bottled up indefinitely. It was at this point that President Kennedy was assassinated. The new president, Lyndon Johnson, utilized his experience in parliamentary politics and the bully pulpit he wielded as president in support of the bill."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964

[Edited on May 22, 2008 at 1:19 PM. Reason : That's it, I really do have to go. Not just because I'm repeating myself (I am), but I have to work.]

5/22/2008 1:19:05 PM

Are you retarded?

The Bill was reported out of the House Judiciary committee in November of 1963, and referred to the House Committee on Rules in November, 1963. Kennedy was assassinated in November 1963. The Bill didn't come out of the Committee on Rules until February 1964.

So again, what was Kennedy supposed to do in a matter of days that it took Johnson many months to do?

[Edited on May 22, 2008 at 1:22 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on May 22, 2008 at 1:28 PM. Reason : .]

5/22/2008 1:22:12 PM

Oh. You're suggesting that my argument is that Kennedy should have been able to get the bill signed into law before he was shot. That really is a retarded argument, I'm glad I never made it.

I only said at the time of Kennedy's assination, the bill was locked in committee and possible would never see the light of day. If Kennedy was not shot, he might have been able to do the same things Johnson did to get the Bill to a vote. But, we will never know. Which is exactly what I said previously.

Quote :

"And would Kennedy have been able to Pass the Civil Rights Act? Maybe. Who knows. At the time of Kennedy's assination, the bill was locked in Committee. It was only allowed to go for a vote after Johnson took office and used his skills to pressure the committee chairman into releasing it..... If you want to say that Kennedy layed the ground work for this particular bill [Civil Rights Act], I will agree. But, of course, you didn't say that. It was not even on your list of Kennedy achievements you copied from Wikipedia. In fact, I'm actually the one that brought it up...once again. Maybe you should not rely on Wikipedia for all your information."

Arrrr. the wolf web is too addictive. How many people with shattered academic records and careers will be ruined before learn?? We're not yet ready for this kind of technology.

[Edited on May 22, 2008 at 1:30 PM. Reason : ``]

5/22/2008 1:29:37 PM

No, this is what you said before you began to back track.

Quote :

"Exactly, in NOVEMBER of 63. Well into the second half of his term. Indeed, Kennedy was primarily in Dallas to start ramping up for re-election (collecting money etc). So what was he waiting on?"

5/22/2008 1:31:21 PM

Quote :

"You're suggesting that my argument is that Kennedy should have been able to get the bill signed into law before he was shot."

pretty sure he is not suggesting that

5/22/2008 1:31:37 PM

ug.


[Edited on May 22, 2008 at 1:36 PM. Reason : ``]

5/22/2008 1:35:11 PM

Instead of rolling your eyes you can admit you are wrong and we can get back to other reasons why you shouldn't be arguing historical analogies.

5/22/2008 1:41:48 PM

Because I won't have to see the new old McCain past Nov. 4th.

His tirades of "win the war" are so 2004.

5/28/2008 7:13:00 PM

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/06/obama_and_his_labels.html

6/9/2008 4:12:27 AM

I believe the 2nd quarter ends tonight at midnight.

"Show Your Support Before the June 30th Deadline"
https://donate.barackobama.com/logotshirt

There is that special edition tshirt for donating before the deadline.

I'm considering contributing or buying something from the store today.
http://store.barackobama.com/

Perhaps this:

6/30/2008 4:31:06 PM

Right now, I could vote for Obama instead of McCain based solely on McCain's stance on women's reproductive rights.

The face that Obama isn't a Republican, has a multicultural background (more so than most US politicians), that I can stand to hear the man give a speech, and has a kickass graphic artist working for his campaign are all bonuses.


If not for McCain's stance on women's rights, it'd be a lot harder for me to choose who to vote for.

6/30/2008 11:01:09 PM

lol shit its a landslide for me...i do not see democrats fucking this up

[Edited on June 30, 2008 at 11:08 PM. Reason : it would almost be infathomable]

6/30/2008 11:07:47 PM

Quote :

"i do not see democrats fucking this up"

pre-election: possibly
post-election: yeah! the more government the better!

7/1/2008 9:08:08 AM

I dont know why you all were discussing JFK in an Obama thread......

JFK gave one of the most memorable speaches in American History when he proclaimed the words, "ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country."

The Gimmecrats of today are nothing like JFK. The only think Obama has in common with him is hes young and speaks well.

JFK is much more like McCain...a war veteran, personal responsibility...yadda yadda yadda.

7/1/2008 10:33:54 AM

Quote :

"it is this essential American idea - that we are not constrained by the accident of birth but can make of our lives what we will - that has defined my life, just as it has defined the life of so many other Americans."

7/1/2008 10:48:06 AM

Quote :

"man holds in his mortal hands the power to abolish all forms of human poverty and all forms of human life. And yet the same revolutionary beliefs for which our forebears fought are still at issue around the globe - the belief that the rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God."

-JFK

Wow...democrats used to refer to God?!

7/1/2008 11:05:48 AM

Free Obama Bumper Sticker here:
https://pol.moveon.org/obamastickers/?rc=homepage

7/2/2008 2:03:27 PM

One reason I support him is I don't foresee anything similar coming out of the McCain camp.
https://donate.barackobama.com/page/contribute/pridetshirt?source=20080705_pride_shirt

7/6/2008 8:06:00 PM

has anyone said "because he's younger," yet?

just waiting on a little honesty

7/6/2008 9:01:51 PM

has anyone said that "because in the past 40 years, only 12 of those years have been with a democrat as president"

[Edited on July 6, 2008 at 9:36 PM. Reason : PS- BECAUSE OBAMA IS YOUNGER- lol]

7/6/2008 9:35:55 PM

Obama for moving 2 brigades to Afghanistan from Iraq

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25676250/

7/14/2008 2:44:38 PM

against our missle shield.

against enforcing our laws

"When communities are terrorized by ICE immigration raids – when nursing mothers are torn from their babies, when children come home from school to find their parents missing, when people are detained without access to legal counsel...when all that’s happening, the system just isn’t working."

Blames the west for islamic extremists.. well partially.

Has a great marketing though. They're Greeeeaaaatttt!!!!!!!!!

7/14/2008 3:30:36 PM

He seems to be the presidential candidate most similar to Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger

7/14/2008 4:36:52 PM

more like the borg... resistance is futile. Its easier just to accept what he says then try to discuss it.

Did you see this tree?

"We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we've set," he said. "We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well funded."


WTF is he even talking about? He wants a second military? I guess the national guard isnt good enough. Or are we now going to have federal dollars going to pay for people to have guns? He needs to keep talking....all the but the most emotional supporters wont know what the hell he is even talking about.

[Edited on July 14, 2008 at 5:03 PM. Reason : .]

7/14/2008 4:53:44 PM

at first i thought he just meant we should use our military more to protect our own borders instead of having them all over the globe, but he specifically says "we cannot rely on our military" so i dont know what he's getting at

7/14/2008 5:05:28 PM

it doesnt matter tree. The only ones questioning him are the ones that arent going to vote for him.

Also find the irony in his promises to cut funding for the military, then saying he needs another NEW entity that is just as funded and trained. LOL

7/14/2008 6:09:30 PM

^^ It's almost comical that you lop off the second half of the sentence, then wonder why it doesn't make sense to you.

7/14/2008 6:52:38 PM

ok moron, let me try again...if i'm wrong again, please enlighten us to what the hell he is talking about

"We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well funded"

is he talking about the police? national guard? or some brand new "civilian national security force" that gets tens of billions of dollars in funding a year just like the military?

please explain since you apparently understand what he's saying and you forgot to explain it in your last post

7/14/2008 7:03:27 PM

IS it true that Obama has been preaching to us to use less gas and is now considering sponsoring a gas-guzzling NASCAR team?

Hah... all the left-wing comics and pundits...so much material...and they can't say a thing.

7/14/2008 7:38:58 PM

come on earth, he mispoke, disowned the idea, or regrets talking about doing the nascar ad. Once he found out how much gas they use he said. "Thats not the Nascar I knew, and grew up with."

7/14/2008 9:28:51 PM

Obama repeats message on black responsibility

Quote :

"In address to NAACP, he tells African-Americans to demand more of selves CINCINNATI - Democrat Barack Obama looked Monday to deepen support among the African-American community in a speech to the annual convention of a leading civil rights group that raked corporate greed "that puts their bottom line ahead of what's right for America." The Illinois senator — who would be the first black elected as president — also returned to his message that blacks must "do more in our own lives, our own families, and our own communities," a theme that prompted civil rights activist Rev. Jesse Jackson to say last week he wanted to castrate Obama for talking down to the black community. While Jackson apologized when the remarks were made public, the incident laid bare generational tensions in the U.S. civil rights movement. Obama also pounded home his opposition to the Iraq war, writing in The New York Times that he would not relent from withdrawing American forces by 2009 and announced a plan — if elected — to deploy an additional 7,000 troops to Afghanistan. In remarks prepared for delivery in Cincinnati to the convention of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, Obama said the 2008 presidential election was "about the responsibilities that corporate America has — responsibilities that start with ending a culture on Wall Street that says what's good for me is good enough." "It matters little if you have the right to sit at the front of the bus if you can't afford the bus fare; it matters little if you have the right to sit at the lunch counter if you can't afford the lunch," he said, citing the work and sacrifices of U.S. civil rights giants like the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. and Roy Wilkins. But he called on black Americans to look inward as well. “If we’re serious about reclaiming that dream, we have to do more in our own lives, our own families and our own communities,” the Democratic presidential candidate said. “That starts with providing the guidance our children need, turning off the TV and putting away the video games; attending those parent-teacher conferences, helping our children with their homework and setting a good example.” He added: “I know some say I’ve been too tough on folks about this responsibility stuff. But I’m not going to stop talking about it. Because I believe that in the end, it doesn’t matter how much money we invest in our communities, or how many 10-point plans we propose, or how many government programs we launch — none of it will make any difference if we don’t seize more responsibility in our own lives.” Video Jackson caught on tape July 10: The Rev. Jesse Jackson sparked a firestorm with controversial comments about Barack Obama, which he thought were not on tape. A Hardball panel debates what exactly Jackson was talking about and whether this is just the “latest” generational divide in this presidential campaign. Hardball Obama speaks often on this issue. A similar speech on Father’s Day prompted an awkward rebuke from the Rev. Jesse Jackson, a Democratic presidential contender in 1984 and 1988, a protege of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. and a fellow Chicago political activist. Jackson apologized last week after being caught saying on an open microphone that he wanted to castrate Obama for speaking down to blacks. The Baltimore-based National Association for the Advancement of Colored People is officially nonpartisan. Republican presidential candidate John McCain is scheduled to address the convention on Wednesday. continued"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25678384/

7/15/2008 12:01:26 AM

I really don't see too many differences between McCain and Obama to be honest. Although the issues they differ on are big ones, there really are not too many.

http://www.latimes.com/news/la-na-centrists13-2008jul13,0,5139284.story?page=1&track=ntothtml

Really the only issues I dissagree with Obama on are Healthcare and Iraq. Other than that I would have no problem with him as president. I hope his trip to Iraq will lead him to reconsider his hardline stance on immediate withdraw. But I believe he will soon see that his promisses on both these issues are unrealistic.

7/15/2008 12:54:47 AM

^They are very far apart on taxes and economic policy.

7/15/2008 12:57:59 AM

^Agreed. I'm not saying their the same guy with a different letter after his name buy any means. Just that their not as different as most people think.

To be fair, here are some differences:http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=alsJ22j5BQS0&refer=home

[Edited on July 15, 2008 at 1:06 AM. Reason : link]

7/15/2008 1:00:39 AM

^ Obama hasn't had a "hardline" stance on withdrawal since just after he started running for president, and he's been saying he would considering conditions on the ground, and then just recently, he's said it would mostly be the general's call.

7/15/2008 12:58:54 PM

Obama spokesmen now say everyone knew that President Bush's troop surge would create more security. This is blatantly false. Obama said in early 2007 that nothing in the surge plan would "make a significant dent in the sectarian violence," and the new strategy would "not prove to be one that changes the dynamics significantly." He referred to the surge derisively as "baby-sit(ting) a civil war."



http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/07/planning_to_ignore_the_facts.html

7/15/2008 1:25:46 PM

so moron is he talking about the cops or national guard or something completely different? you forgot to inform us

7/15/2008 1:30:11 PM