Greenville Wal-Mart has guns, ammo, fuel, electric substation, and a water tower in close proximity.

8/20/2009 9:18:18 PM

I'm well prepared...but I'm not letting any of you people in my bomb shelter. Unless you're hot.

Note to self: install a peephole in the bomb shelter door.

8/20/2009 9:20:59 PM

I'd find a two story warehouse and occupy the second floor, the only way up is by ladder and at the top of the ladder would be a lawnmower that's always on to keep the zombies at bay.

8/20/2009 10:29:44 PM

Why would you need a lawnmower at the top of the ladder? Zombies lack the coordination to climb a ladder. If the lawnmower were always on, the noise alone would attract more zombies then you could kill. And where are you getting all the fuel to power the mower?

8/20/2009 11:07:13 PM

i'll be boarded up in the UT cafeteria.

8/20/2009 11:15:22 PM

yeah a few years ago we discussed how UT would be a good place to hole up. I live near a superwalmart now, and although it is one story, if i had time to shore up the doors, that could be a good place as well.

8/21/2009 7:46:07 AM

fun fact: it's near impossible to find a titanium crowbar for less than $100 :/

8/21/2009 9:44:40 AM

I don't know if titanium would be a good idea tho... you want something with some heft to it so the zombie skulls cave in easier. If you want titanium, why not just use a golf club?

8/21/2009 9:45:56 AM

ive always wanted to read that book, that i have now blanked on the name of

8/21/2009 9:50:12 AM

World War Z.

8/21/2009 9:58:14 AM

WHEN ZOMBIES ATTACK!: MATHEMATICAL MODELLING OF AN OUTBREAK OF ZOMBIE INFECTION

http://www.mathstat.uottawa.ca/~rsmith/Zombies.pdf

[Edited on August 21, 2009 at 10:02 AM. Reason : work with me here, crazycode, i'm trying to do something]

8/21/2009 10:01:57 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cOxlhpoHAg

zombie boot camp

8/22/2009 3:53:30 PM

they must've taken the swine flu vaccine since they're all wearin scrubs

8/22/2009 4:06:47 PM

10/10 find bigman

8/22/2009 4:33:52 PM

8/30/2009 6:57:06 PM

8/30/2009 7:03:58 PM

RUN!!

8/30/2009 7:09:51 PM

I am writing a book in large part on the discussion in this thread. Odds are overwhelmingly against me ever even trying to publish it. If I do, it will be through a a publisher with the same extraordinarily low standards as put out "Day by Day Armageddon."

9/1/2009 1:49:22 AM

Awesome, keep us posted

And yeah, Day by Day was pretty shitty. Entertaining, but shitty

[Edited on September 1, 2009 at 1:52 AM. Reason : i think i've already said that though]

9/1/2009 1:52:22 AM

Obviously I'd like to think mine is better. A monkey with a pencil could write a better book than Day by Day. Also, mine is topically relevant since it's largely based on NCSU.

I will provide a draft copy in this thread when its done, which may well be a long time from now. Grad school and all.

9/1/2009 1:54:26 AM

i enjoy zombie literature. i'd read it.

i even read day by day.

9/1/2009 7:42:08 AM

Day by Day wasn't so bad

you want to read bad, read Z Day is Here

9/1/2009 7:56:16 AM

i think a big problem is, max brooks has spoiled us.

9/1/2009 8:06:33 AM

no, Z Day is Here is legitimately bad

9/1/2009 10:42:09 AM

Apparently "Zombie Survival Guide" by Max Brooks is or is about to be a graphic novel detailing zombie outbreaks throughout history. I shall investigate further and report back.

9/3/2009 12:28:38 AM

I disagree with a point you made earlier, Grumpy.

If you get a large and efficient group, and are well armed, which are all difficult qualifications but run with me, a Wal-Mart would not only be a prime target but, when done right, very easy to defend. Super Wal-Marts, which you're more likely to come across, are harder to defend, but probably double the benefit. My logic is this:

Let's say you get to the Wal-Mart before it's overrun with zombies, which seems unlikely but whatever. If you have sufficient presence and brute, you can probably take it from whatever human presence is lurking there for supplies. Of course you're going to have to kill if there's draggers that won't leave, but it'll probably be worth it. First step is clearing out the Wal-Mart, which is easy enough. The biggest area, the floor, is actually the easiest--everything is highly categorized and in isles, which are easy to do quick sweeps of (even if the potential to hide is high). The storeroom and dock are usually secure from casual entrance anyway, and it won't take long to root through it and secure everything--they're not public entrances, and it would be hard to ply one of those docking bay doors open.

The focus areas would be the front entrance and any emergency exits in the storeroom and the "addons". The "addons" are the stores that are often at the front and sides of a Wal-Mart, like banks and salons. Occasionally, a store will have it's own fire escape. These doors are bolted on the outside, and have alarms on them--but since you can't rely on alarms to protect, they're easily secured and blocked. Nice strong metal doors. Now, the front entrance might prove more difficult--but my thoughts? Less so than suspected. The glass entry doors are not just straight panes of glass, and can be easily sealed. The walkways along the front, often closed in glass, all funnel into the second "entry" anyway, which is the inner opening that leads into the floor of the store.

This whole area can be blocked at the second entry, then sealed at the primary entries and set up to have guards. In fact, the open windows near the primary entrance can be wired and ported to be used as a massive broadside security measure, in case you get a horde. That whole system provides an excellent zone to secure the area and to act as a lock in case the primary entrances are broken. Plus, you need to consider the possibility of taking on later survivors (or giving the appearance of doing so, I suppose), and you need an area to inspect and check them without letting them right in. A sort of housing area for the "uncertain".

Once the building is secure and guarded, which I reckon would take a constant shift of 2 per "primary and second entrance" (in case it's a Super Wal-Mart), if it's well fortified, 2 on the shipping dock, and a small patrol for hypothetical fire escapes and emergency exits. This should be easily accomplished, and could probably be stretched a little thinner, especially if you're very certain of your storeroom and docking entrances, which you should be (they're almost all solid metal doors). There aren't any other sort of entrance points, no windows, no particularly vulnerable vents, no tunnels.

The benefits? Plentiful. Even if the store is HEAVILY raided before you get there, there will still be a multitude of products and materials at your disposal. Food will be in abundance, and there's even more in the back in the deep freezer. The beautiful thing is, a Wal-Mart would last a LONG time if the power went out, and it will. Wal-Marts have a very powerful backup generator that keeps the fridges going and the lights on. Even if you lost power to the storeroom, the deep freezer won't unthaw for longer than you'd need to live there (hopefully). As long as power is going, there's running water. If there isn't, there's lots of other sources, including tanks of ice which will have melted and formed, essentially, large containers of water. There are plenty of materials, especially metal, to modify weapons and create fortifications. The store can easily fit SEVERAL vehicles in it's loading docks to be modified, and vehicles may be readily available nearby if you can get to them. The Sporting Goods department will have guns. A lot of guns. Even if they are small caliber, that's all you'll need if you set things up appropriately. Gasoline and clothing? Molotovs may be your friend in a parking lot like that. Lots of things you can do. Radios to keep in contact with the living world (be there any), and various other goods.

Obviously, as with all other zombie situations, the biggest threat other than the zombies will be internal issues. As Grump mentioned before, you have to be selective, and even when selective, betrayal will happen any number of times, especially if you have a Wal-Mart. Something like that will be a highly valued location, and you may have a number of skirmishes if you deny access to a unfit group of survivors. This is why I advised that you'd need an extremely well-structured group to attempt this--but hey, why not try it and weed them out if it works?

I'd like to hear Grump's thoughts. I know this is a little more extravagant than you'd advise, and has a lot of potential setbacks, but it WOULD be an incredibly valuable advantage.

9/3/2009 1:34:11 AM

Just a few additions:

*Another big advantage is the fact that there are sanitation supplies, bathrooms, and showers (or, improvised showers). No one seems to account for the lack of toilets, bathes, or basic sanitation. In a situation where INFECTION is the primary agent of death, you need to keep things clean and basically decontaminated, and need to be able to decontaminate if an area is breached, or if a person has recently been in a Guard Entry Zone such as the Primary and Secondary entrance.

Sanitation will also be important to keep you from killing each other. With the stress on your body, the poor living conditions (theoretically), and close living quarters, various bacterial and secondary infections can spread throughout a community. Being able to keep from getting sick will not only keep you healthy, but keep you from being executed by suspicion.

*The docking bay will make a great escape route. There are few lights and areas of attraction near there, so it'll likely be low-traffic for shamblers and hordes. Modified trucks, ESPECIALLY delivery vehicles, could be launched quickly and easily from the docks.


*More cons, and pros: Okay, so there's some setbacks. You HAVE to be ready for confrontation. You'll likely be near a road that'll be heavily trafficked by survivors and zombies. Nearby stores and shopping centers can provide shelter for opponents, as well as valuable pockets of supplies in the distant future should a scouting expedition become necessary. Close proximity to the roads will help gauge what's going on in the outside world, as well as helping with providing a quick way to escape from your compound.

9/3/2009 1:46:56 AM

A backup generator of any kind is lucky to have 24 hours of fuel. Even with Wal-Marts with fueling stations will require work outside to fence in a controlled area for fuel runs to the tanks. Obviously watch from the roof will be a very important factor in controlling the area, coordinating exits and runs. I would give possibly a week before power went down or less for distribution, maybe weeks for transmission. Frozen goods would almost exclusively need to be consumed first.

9/3/2009 6:18:27 AM

Netstorm:

I agree with you wholeheartedly that Wal-Marts provide a number of major advantages to survivors. And, in a situation that is exactly as you describe, it might be an ideal hideout. But you include a lot of key details which are necessary, such as:

1) Having a large, efficient, well-armed group. Unless you're a member of a SWAT team, you're going to be hard-pressed to have this in such a chaotic disaster. Moreover, any large, efficient, well-armed group that can be put together by an average joe will likely have been put together by other average joes in your area who may want the same thing you do.

2) Getting to the store before it's been picked bare. As soon as the shit hits the fan, Wal-Mart is going to be rushed by large, panicky crowds looking for supplies. They'll probably buy them at first, then turn to outright looting. Unless the outbreak is uncannily swift and overwhelming, affecting most of the locals before they have a chance to go for supplies, you might be in trouble on this front.

3) As a follow-up to #2, getting there before the zombies overrun it. If people rush the store, zombies will, too -- and large, panicky crowds are ideal zombie vectors.

4) The entrance. I've read your description of how it wont be so difficult to defend and I ain't buying it. You gloss quickly over the fact that, while the doors are not completely glass, they are mostly glass. That's a big deal. And Wal-Mart, for all of the goodies it contains, does not have a lot of construction supplies or large, heavy objects with which to block off all that glass.

I've got to leave right now, but I will return later for some more thoughts.

9/3/2009 1:51:21 PM

Another thing to think of, man Wal marts and Kmarts have an auto center attachec, that woudl give metal roll up doors for pull vehicles in, and basic tools for repair of vehicles and other impliments

9/3/2009 5:38:47 PM

This isn't a purely theoretical thought exercise.


[Edited on September 3, 2009 at 5:45 PM. Reason : .]

9/3/2009 5:43:16 PM

Continuing. So let's say you did, through some miracle, manage to get to a Wal-Mart before it was full of people and zombies. You manage to simultaneously sweep the building and seal all the entrances against zombie attack (and it would have to be pretty much simultaneously). If you've accomplished this, you're quite well off -- and implausibly more competent and cool under pressure than 99% of the human population.

Realistically, to achieve these goals you'd have to seize the Wal-Mart at the earliest hint that there might be trouble -- so early, that the police would probably still be largely unaware of it, and quite focused on your massive criminal action.

But let's say you manage it. You're still at the biggest target (no large retail store pun intended) for any survivor in the area. There's a reason Wal-Mart has come up so many times in this thread -- when you ask the question, "Where would you go for lots of supplies?," most people will answer, "Wal-Mart."

Any survivor refuge is likely going to have to turn away some people, possibly even fight off others. You're going to have to do it a lot. And as though the psychological trauma of the living dead isn't enough, you're going to have to live with yourself killing other living human beings, either by direct force or by abandoning them to the zombies.

Further, in the event that you are attacked by humans (rather more likely when you're sitting on such a prime piece of property), you're going to have build much more robust defenses. You can keep zombies out relatively easily. They don't use tools, fire, or explosives.

Most of your posts seemed fairly reasonable, but your last sentence requires special attention for just how wrong it is:

Quote :

"Close proximity to the roads will help gauge what's going on in the outside world, as well as helping with providing a quick way to escape from your compound."

Roads are not a quick escape. Roads are not a quick anything. That's been discussed in this thread since page one, for years now. They will be clogged with wrecks, abandoned cars, debris, and god-knows-what-else. And gauging the outside world -- no. That's like saying in a housefire you're better off in the house so you can see exactly how bad the smoke damage is.

9/3/2009 5:52:42 PM

Yeah, roads are deathtraps and quagmires. If you have any doubt go out to Western Blvd or Hillsborough street right now.

9/3/2009 6:35:35 PM

Quote :

"If you have sufficient presence and brute, you can probably take it from whatever human presence is lurking there for supplies. Of course you're going to have to kill if there's draggers that won't leave, but it'll probably be worth it. First step is clearing out the Wal-Mart, which is easy enough. "

Netstrom, the plot hole in your thinking is ridiculous! You think it'll be "easy enough" to steal a Wal Mart from its human occupiers but you don't even consider the fact that other humans will now want to steal it from you! And live humans, like GrumpyGOP has pointed out, can be a more dangerous enemy than zombies. While zombies are defeated by simple obstacles such as walls, ladders, and barricaded stairs, humans could break through the glass Walmart doors in minutes.

9/3/2009 6:50:57 PM

Except I did consider it, multiple times at mention, and took elaborative means to say that it was the most hypothetical and potentially impossible part of the scenario.


Yea Grump, I understand that roads will be clogged, but if there's any sort of attempt by outside forces, nations, governments, militias to move on the rest of an area, they'll still use roads. If you have an armored car, your only option is still going to be roads... off-roading is not going to be an option here, especially in the area we occupy. If you were any closer to the coast it would be even worse. Roads will still be an important way of guaging location, proximity to other urbanized areas, and direction of travel. If you're not ONE a road traveling, you'll be BESIDE it. In my defense, I was actually thinking in terms of my town on the coast--where Wal-Marts, even with their tendency to draw in shopping outlets, are in relatively rural locations. I understand that would not be the case in Raleigh and surrounding areas, which is the basis for our conversation here.


And yes, I know that the parameters to holding a Wal-Mart are nigh ridiculous, but it's a possibility for a "later-day" scenario. Suppose that, as our hypothetical communes of survivors grow more experienced and armed, they may be able to "raid" a Wal-Mart successfully. I know there's a grand difference between "raiding" and "fortifying", but I don't think it's a terrible idea, even if you got there late in the outbreak.

Potential concerns:

"It will already have been heavily looted:" Okay, lets consider a couple of things, and ws one'll go along with the predictions you already made for posterity. You've said that Wal-Marts will be a war-zone for humans and zombies because of its immediate benefits to a survivor when they find out about the infection. Because of the high traffic and the high rate of infection to this area, even the quickest of looting will stop once the outbreak reaches the actual Wal-Mart. At that point, there will still be a lot of valuable items left in the store, even if a lot of the food has been heavily picked over (especially since food isn't the only valuable in this case, but certainly THE necessity). Initially, there won't be any raids from outside sources once the Wal-Mart is infected. This gives us a unique window of opportunity that I would imagine is a pretty large window.

Without the influx of new traffic to the area, the zombies are either going to move to (hypothetical) nearby urban complexes and traffic areas or die out. More than likely there will be a number of remaining zombies. Now, perhaps we introduce our supposed group of survivors during this window. It doesn't have to be really near the time of infection--more than likely there won't be any changes to the area until other groups are also able to become more nomadic, which seems like it might take some practice and survival. This would be the ideal time to seize a Wal-Mart: there's more than likely not a lot of mobilization yet, so the Infected are the primary local threat to your mission.

Again, even in this scenario, we have to assume a degree of competency and success from a group in even the most leniant of scenarios. Despite how difficult it may be, I just wanted to emphasize the sheer priceless nature of a department store, and how in a long-term survival scenario it could be a key to providing the materials, fortifications, and location to rebuilding a human community.

"Taking and fortifying" was just my focus at the time I wrote the initial statement... which was at 2AM and involved a bit of intoxication, but whatever. Perhaps we should focus on the benefits of raiding a Wal-Mart, and how one might go about doing that at any stage of the infection. I've not read the entire thread, don't ask me to, but I'm certain you must cover the necessities of raiding at some point. In your initial paper, when you originally posted in the thread, I thought you kind of skipped over some extremely important details on getting the right amount of food and water. Sure, you covered the convenience of a dorm being next to a store or cafeteria, but even then, I still think there needs to be more emphasis on water. An infection scenario is going to be the same as any other survival scenario: water, water, water, food, shelter.


Anyway, perhaps I should search the thread for previous Wal-Mart discussion and go from there. In any case, it's probably moot for your actual book, seeing that the nearest Wal-Mart to campus is pretty far to mobilize in a zombie scenario. Food Lion seems far more likely.

I do have a question about your book though: how in depth are you at identifying with surviving a zombie infection on NCSU campus? Do you specifically mention different areas of campus, pros and cons of certain dorms, et cetera?

9/4/2009 12:40:45 AM

I love a good zombie debate

9/4/2009 12:41:44 AM

Netstorm will create zombies... by merely talking people into an undead state.

9/4/2009 12:41:59 AM

Quote :

"Yea Grump, I understand that roads will be clogged, but if there's any sort of attempt by outside forces, nations, governments, militias to move on the rest of an area, they'll still use roads."

They'll also use radios. In a Wal-Mart situation, you will have radios and batteries. Finding shit out over airwaves is preferable to finding shit out from direct observation.

Quote :

"Suppose that, as our hypothetical communes of survivors grow more experienced and armed, they may be able to "raid" a Wal-Mart successfully."

In this situation I'm all in favor of raiding everything ever. What I'm against is relying on a Wal-Mart to keep you supplied and safe. Yes, in later-phase raiding, you may find useful shit. You will not find much in the way of immediate necessities.

Quote :

"Because of the high traffic and the high rate of infection to this area, even the quickest of looting will stop once the outbreak reaches the actual Wal-Mart"

You could get lucky in the sense that the early-phase looters will be zombified inside the store, but there will still be a lot of them.

The issue in a number of your plans seems to involve the nature of zombie outbreaks, which could go a number of ways, depending on the nature and location of the plague. My presumption -- and not an arbitrary one, I might add -- has always been that North Carolina will not be one of the first places infected, and will have some warning. Warning of such a nature (that is, of impending destruction of human society) will incite people to panic. There will be time for people to loot and/or flee. If that happens, Wal-Mart will be hit early and often.

Quote :

"Sure, you covered the convenience of a dorm being next to a store or cafeteria, but even then, I still think there needs to be more emphasis on water. An infection scenario is going to be the same as any other survival scenario: water, water, water, food, shelter."

As with you, my initial paper was written late at night and under the influence of alcohol. But remember that at the time I also considered a population of no more than 30 people. And bear in mind that I have a fairly detailed understanding of how to acquire water, much of which is backed up by experience (though I don't deny that some is still purely academic).

I absolutely agree with you that water is the big thing. But Wal-Mart, like any campus locale, is based on a finite amount of the stuff. Sure, Wal-Mart may have more -- but developing a sustainable supply is crucial, and is within the realm of possibility in many locales.

---

Quote :

"I do have a question about your book though: how in depth are you at identifying with surviving a zombie infection on NCSU campus? Do you specifically mention different areas of campus, pros and cons of certain dorms, et cetera?"

At the present stage I run almost exclusively on real-life details of the campus, though in the unlikely event that I ever finish and attempt to publish the thing I will make the descriptors fictitious. My current writing does not focus on dorms; in fact, the survival zone does not include them at all. I admit that the work so far includes some conveniences, but they are mostly ones that one could expect to find on a large college campus.

9/4/2009 2:32:54 AM

tl;dr

9/4/2009 2:36:45 AM

Don't care, you'll die when the apocalypse comes.

I don't know what the hip acronym for that would be...dc,ydwtac seems too long.

9/4/2009 2:40:25 AM

If I stock up on beer and alcohol will I be ok???

THIS IS IMPORTANT?@?@?

9/4/2009 2:42:02 AM

I have trouble understanding why someone would come into a four year old, 34 page thread about zombies and say "too long; didn't read."

Also, I hate you.

9/4/2009 2:44:04 AM

I do apologize, I am drunk

but I do love you

9/4/2009 2:44:40 AM

Oh, well, as long as you're drunk you're in good company. You can't talk about zombies sober. Too scary.

9/4/2009 2:45:42 AM

I know right

I saw this thread was bumped, and then your long post and got all shaky on the inside

I felt I had moments to spare before the zombie attack

my only hope is that they enjoy liquor as much as me

9/4/2009 2:47:19 AM

For all my planning for the event, I can't come up with a solution to my "I need booze" problem. Can't set up a still -- corn and other grains will be at a premium. Can't just scavenge booze forever.

My only hope is that at around the time the liquor runs out, I will have done all the good I can. At that point, I can just eat a bullet and leave it to the non-alcoholic survivors.

9/4/2009 2:49:08 AM

solid but sad plan

I don't see anyway around it in the long-term, I mean you could stock up on half gallons but inevitably they will run out and we'll become unsustainable

9/4/2009 2:51:47 AM

My only hope is hoarding enough to last through the initial crisis, then maybe after the zombies are all dead there will be enough grain left over to make booze again.

Failing that, I cling to the bullet.

9/4/2009 2:53:19 AM

It will be tuff time indeed

god bless us all

9/4/2009 2:55:12 AM

booze will come in handy.

9/4/2009 3:02:01 AM