a santorum/obama debate would probably be pretty entertaining, not as entertaining as gingrich, but if nominated gingrich would have lost thanks to media crucifixion before the first debate.

santorum/obama though, wow. i mean when faced with tough questions they both have the maturity level of your average 5 year old.

they clinch their little jaw, they make their little face, theyre both little angry men.

in all actuality santorum would probably smuggle in a suicide bomb in his sweater vest.

2/9/2012 3:27:11 PM

Quote :

"if Santorum wins, the ass-kicking he will take from Obama and the resulting landslide just might be enough to kick the GOP in the pants hard enough to stop courting the religious right nutjobs and actually return to its small-gov't roots"

Yep, that's part of why I stopped voting for the less of all evils...I would rather just get utterly demolished and pick up the pieces for 2016 than potentially buy 8 more years of a shitty GOP.

Quote :

"a lot. It's helped ushered in an age of neo-liberalism."

regarding Clinton, I'd say more broadly that it's part of how he got nominated/elected to begin with.

and in the GOP, there are even the pieces in place already to fill in the welcome void that the marginalization of the religious right would leave (whereas in the Democratic Party, the marginalization of the far left had to be filled in with diluted version of the same thing. The GOP doesn't need to be diluted; it just needs to cut out the cancer that's killing everything else in the tent.)

2/9/2012 3:29:22 PM

hopefully if santorum wins(or whoever wins) he doesn't pull a McCain and pick a VP that makes people not vote for them

i just don't get the hate on santorum- out of the 3 he is the (obvious) best choice. younger guy thats not too rich, that doesn't have 3 wives, from a rust belt state, has a bigger contrast with obama than Romney, not a douche like gingrich.

gotta pick an older vp though.

santorum/gingrich 12 lol

I will say he strikes me as a big government conservative like dubya though

trying to speak as a center left voter, not a liberal that wants or thinks romney is the strongest on the GOP side- lot of people always said "i woulda voted mccain" back in 2006. Then 2008 comes and he still loses. same will happen to romney

the media wants romney, so they can butcher him with class warfare type crap in the general

i already don't count paul, and newt is getting there too. 3rd wife can't be first lady. so out of romney or santorum? easy if you are a conservative.

[Edited on February 9, 2012 at 3:50 PM. Reason : -]

2/9/2012 3:39:49 PM

Santorum is a religious, big government nutcase!!

2/9/2012 4:00:42 PM

^^ It's easy alright. The only way anyone could conceivably want Santorum is if they are a fringe-right social-conservatives, or populist Republicans. As far as I'm concerned, these are two groups that should be booted straight in the ass and conceded to the Democratic Party where they belong (not that the bible thumpers really belong there any more than the GOP, but they are often the populists, too).

Quote :

"hopefully if santorum wins(or whoever wins) he doesn't pull a McCain and pick a VP that makes people not vote for them"

Umm, it's a short list of people that he could pick that would be even worse than him. His problem wouldn't be a VP pick--it would be himself. His chance would be zero--he would rightfully get totally annihilated.

2/9/2012 4:30:19 PM

^
Out of curiosity, why the disdain for populism?

2/9/2012 4:59:37 PM

Quote :

"he would rightfully get totally annihilated."

not as bad as gingrich or romney...thats the point

2/9/2012 5:09:44 PM

Romney at least pretends to be moderate enough to gain enough independent votes to win a general election though. Neither side is going to turn out like they did in 2008 and the last 3 presidential elections have pretty much been decided by which way independent voters go. Gingrich and Santorum totally push that vote away with their crazy so although they might have higher turnout among their religious base, they wouldn't get nearly enough independent votes to win.

The national debate is going against Romney right now though. He's a mega-millionaire running for president at the same time Occupy Wall Street is going on. No chance in hell will he win. Occupy will come back strong around September or possibly earlier and have significant influence on the debate, I think. Add to that his shapeshifting policy positions and he has absolutely no chance.

And let's all be real. Ron Paul is only running to let the public hear his unique policy. He's got no shot.

2/9/2012 7:18:49 PM

Quote :

"regarding Clinton, I'd say more broadly that it's part of how he got nominated/elected to begin with."

I agree. A southern Democrat who is friendly to business was more electable in the 90s than a traditional liberal or progressive. And we've shifted wildly further to the right since then.

Quote :

"and in the GOP, there are even the pieces in place already to fill in the welcome void that the marginalization of the religious right would leave (whereas in the Democratic Party, the marginalization of the far left had to be filled in with diluted version of the same thing. The GOP doesn't need to be diluted; it just needs to cut out the cancer that's killing everything else in the tent.)"

I think this is being optimistic, unfortunately. It's easier to slide to the right than it is to slide to the left, because moving to the right assures the consolidation of power into the hands of a few. It takes a lot of political will to break up that monopoly, and I just don't see it happening. Obama would need people pulling him to the left in order for him to stop compromising with the far-right (which is made up of the religious group you hate). But nobody on the Democratic side is doing that, because they're all bought by wall street or corporate interests. And without that pressure from the left, the Republican party has no real incentive to shed themselves of the religious right.

I really don't see a pretty end in sight, to be honest. I mean, look at Rick Santorum. Here's a man who thinks colleges indoctrinate students and forces them to abandon religion. Here's a man who's ignorance is reviled when he speaks about race inequalities, and who's only redeeming qualities are his social values that come from bronze age mythology -- If this guy can win multiple Republican primaries -- then I think it's safe to say that the GOP is in a state of chaos.

2/9/2012 7:22:02 PM

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2012/02/09/rick_perry_says_hell_run_again_for_president.html

the title in the link is enough to make me

2/9/2012 10:53:11 PM

I said it earlier, and I'll say it again.

The GOP will regain it's power and electability when it divorces itself from christian fundamentalism.

The comment about independents swaying the elections is spot on. Since most independents are not fundamentalist, nor do they generally vote on single issues, this republican pandering to churches, pro-life fanatics, pushes them away.

I may be bias in this opinion because this is exactly what is happening with me. I am generally conservative, pro-small government and liberty. But this ass backward anti-science, anti-logic, industrial military complex rhetoric that the current GOP darlings use to pander to the religious right, makes me run for the hills.

Conspiracy theory: The super rich and powers that be used religious based single issues to gain support from lower class fundies, and then bait and switched with policies that generally don't favor their supporters.

Since logic, knowledge and science are more accessible due to the internet and technology, you are seeing a rise in independent thinkers and atheism, the influence and control the powers that be manifested through religious pandering is weakening.

[Edited on February 10, 2012 at 9:00 AM. Reason : e]

2/10/2012 8:59:00 AM

^All of this.

I saw an article the other day that said 20% of registered Repulicans are leaning towards Obama now, likely because of how shit the GOP is right now.

2/10/2012 9:54:58 AM

Quote :

"And let's all be real. Ron Paul is only running to let the public hear his unique policy. He's got no shot."

You may think this, but Ron Paul is running to win. 8 years from now, it will be clear that Ron Paul was the only major candidate with a clue, just like he was one of the only representative with a clue in the 90s and early 2000s. He's only a nutcase if you believe that the mainstream party positions are "sane". The fact is, he's sounding the alarm for a country that is circling the drain and no one wants to face up to reality, so it's just easier to call him crazy.

Quote :

"Conspiracy theory: The super rich and powers that be used religious based single issues to gain support from lower class fundies, and then bait and switched with policies that generally don't favor their supporters."

Is there any other explanation? How could the party of Christ be the party of war at the same time?

And, to be fair, many Democrats are willing to support (or at least tolerate) war/corporate welfare as long as the politician pays lip service to abortion/same sex marriage, etc.

[Edited on February 10, 2012 at 10:26 AM. Reason : ]

2/10/2012 10:23:04 AM

Quote :

"You may think this, but Ron Paul is running to win."

He should probably get out of the Republican primary then.

2/10/2012 2:05:30 PM

from that line of thinking, they should all get out...b/c any one of the other three are gonna get slaughtered in the general election

2/10/2012 3:16:30 PM

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=14091


Also, while I voted Paul in the primary, let's be real: he is not running to win. He is running to shape the GOP and advance the cause of libertarianism.

Quote :

"Conspiracy theory: The super rich and powers that be used religious based single issues to gain support from lower class fundies, and then bait and switched with policies that generally don't favor their supporters."

Umm, I thought this was widely recognized and maybe even occasionally explicitly stated?

2/10/2012 4:39:15 PM

Santorum is seriously advocating that a woman's role is not to serve in the military right now on CNN

holy fuck

2/10/2012 5:09:27 PM

Yeah, Santorum is one scary dude. Unlike most candidates who just pay lip service to their party's more outrageous talking points, this guy is a true believer. He's the racist, misogynistic, religious extremist warhawk that listeners of Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh want to vote for. He'd probably be running away with the nomination if the establishment had backed him from day one. Even now, Romney might be in real trouble, especially if Gingrich drops out.

2/10/2012 5:31:43 PM

me and limbaugh finally agree...i've never heard anyone say "i'm severely conservative"

you educated folk can diss santorum all you want, but when it comes to winning over the hearts and minds of the largest amount of the GOP, he's the one

[Edited on February 10, 2012 at 6:50 PM. Reason : -]

2/10/2012 6:48:51 PM

must be easy to win over the mind of someone who dislikes 'educated folk'

2/10/2012 6:58:29 PM

Santorum can't win the election. I'd be shocked if got the GOP nomination, but he'd get wrecked by Obama.

I would vote for Obama over any of the GOP candidates except Ron Paul, and Obama is a total disaster.

[Edited on February 10, 2012 at 10:05 PM. Reason : ]

2/10/2012 10:05:08 PM

Quote :

"You may think this, but Ron Paul is running to win. 8 years from now, it will be clear that Ron Paul was the only major candidate with a clue, just like he was one of the only representative with a clue in the 90s and early 2000s. He's only a nutcase if you believe that the mainstream party positions are "sane". The fact is, he's sounding the alarm for a country that is circling the drain and no one wants to face up to reality, so it's just easier to call him crazy"

I never said Ron Paul was crazy. I don't agree with a lot of his specific policies, but I admire many of his ideological values. But like other people have agreed with me, he has no shot at winning. Not in this current incarnation of the GOP. And it's funny, because I think he might actually have the best shot of the four to win the general election. He would represent the first time in a very long time of a distinctly different message. But he has too many forces working against him and without the support of the GOP, he'd have an impossible time winning the general election. He's building for the future and I think behind closed doors, even he would tell you that.

Americans want to hear something different and Ron Paul is currently the figurehead of that movement. I think we'll inevitably start moving in this direction, but until a politician comes along that is a little bit more moderate and not so unforgivingly ideological they won't get into the White House.

[Edited on February 11, 2012 at 3:05 PM. Reason : ]

2/11/2012 3:03:57 PM

Quote :

"Americans want to hear something different and Ron Paul is currently the figurehead of that movement. I think we'll inevitably start moving in this direction, but until a politician comes along that is a little bit more moderate and not so unforgivingly ideological they won't get into the White House."

Governor Gary Johnson, a likely pick for the Libertarian nomination, might be that kind of practical libertarian. I just hope once Romney wins the nomination, Ron Paul will endorse Johnson, rather than not speak up at let everyone drift to Romney.

http://thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=621952

2/11/2012 3:10:52 PM

I agree. Unfortunately, a third party candidate has even less chance of running a successful campaign with the advent of SuperPACs. Anyone outside the two major parties is just going to get a full media blackout. The only thing that could turn that is a Ron Paul endorsement. And I can't see him doing that unless he wants to expedite the death of the GOP. I'm not sure about that since he's been so happy to be a Republican for so long.

2/11/2012 3:32:02 PM

I also wouldn't be surprised if, behind the scenes, the GOP leadership offers to give him some podium time, bolster the libertarian planks in the party platform, etc, in exchange for NOT endorsing Johnson.

Quote :

" but until a politician comes along that is a little bit more moderate and not so unforgivingly ideological"

DUKE 2016

"THAT KIND OF PRACTICAL LIBERTARIAN"


[Edited on February 11, 2012 at 3:57 PM. Reason : "FOR AMERICA"]

2/11/2012 3:56:42 PM

While pretty much impossible, it amuses me to think about what would happen if we had an Independent president. No way for a congress person to say "hey, he's a republican/democrat, I'm a democrat/republican, I need to vote against his legislation", hell they might even have to think for themselves on each issue.

2/11/2012 4:40:43 PM

Doug Wead (senior adviser campaign to the Paul campaign) interviewed here on the Rachel Maddow show: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9x28_I9oIVg

The Paul strategy here is to get delegates. While the media isn't reporting on it, Paul is picking up a lot of delegates. Doug Wead indicates that in some cases, verbal memos were spread to not vote for any delegate under age 40, because they knew it would be a Ron Paul supporter. He also speaks about the possibility of a brokered convention.

2/11/2012 5:07:36 PM

Quote :

"The Paul strategy here is to get delegates. While the media isn't reporting on it, Paul is picking up a lot of delegates."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Party_presidential_primaries,_2012#Delegate_allocation_and_process

Delegate Count
Paul: 9
Romney: 91
Santorum: 4
Gingrich: 32

It's wikipedia so I'm not sure how accurate it is, or how up to date it is. But if this is right, he hasn't broken double digits yet on the delegate count, and everyone else combined doesn't even catch up half way to Romney.

2/11/2012 5:14:50 PM

WTH??!!!


http://deadlinelive.info/2012/02/10/rick-santorum-declares-war-on-heavy-metal/

Quote :

"Rick Santorum has been on the offensive lately, but his target has not been Republican frontrunner Mitt Romney or even President Barack Obama. For the past week, Santorum has been using his campaign to take aim at an issue he feels to be the single most dangerous force in America today: Satanism in heavy metal. “If you listen to the radio today, many of these brand new, so-called heavy metal music bands like Black Sabbath, Venom, The WASP and Iron Maiden use satanic imagery to corrupt the minds of young people,” announced Santorum at a 10,000 dollar a plate sock-hop in Valdosta, Georgia on Thursday"

Not sure on this link, has anyone seen this anywhere else, its almost unbelievable to me. If its true he's been campaigning on issues like this then . . . .. . . . . .

[Edited on February 11, 2012 at 5:16 PM. Reason : also lol at calling these bands "brand new"]

2/11/2012 5:15:26 PM

Wait, are you genuinely not sure whether that's for real or not?

2/11/2012 5:18:09 PM

Quote :

"It's wikipedia so I'm not sure how accurate it is, or how up to date it is. But if this is right, he hasn't broken double digits yet on the delegate count, and everyone else combined doesn't even catch up half way to Romney."

If you watch the interview, he explains that. Many of those delegates have not actually been awarded except in the winner takes all states like Florida. In the caucus states, none of the delegates have been awarded.

2/11/2012 5:19:10 PM

^^arguing over abortion and birth control - ok, I don't agree with their stance but sorta understandable where they are coming from

The war on christianity/christmas etc - ehh, I just don't see it but it whips people up so its sorta understandable

Saying "satanism in heavy metal is one of the most dangerous forces in america today"??? I thought a majority of conservatives gave up that fight sometime in the 1980s. How many voters is he planning on winning over with that kind of talk? Plus thats not a website I visit frequently.

I'm really only beginning to realize that there is a huge subset of the American population that is going to have to be dragged, kick and screaming, into the 21st century.

2/11/2012 5:39:48 PM

Quote :

"Filed under Satire"

2/11/2012 5:45:14 PM

exactly, I haven't been able to find the remark on what i would consider a legitimate website yet so I wondering if someone else, who actually cares about the GOP primary, had the scoop.

2/11/2012 5:53:33 PM

It's fake, there's no scoop

2/11/2012 6:34:04 PM

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2012/02/santorum-moves-ahead-in-michigan.html

Quote :

"Rick Santorum's taken a large lead in Michigan's upcoming Republican primary. He's at 39% to 24% for Mitt Romney, 12% for Ron Paul, and 11% for Newt Gingrich."

http://americanresearchgroup.com/pres2012/primary/rep/mi/

Quote :

"Rick Santorum leads the Michigan Republican presidential primary with 33%. Santorum is followed by Mitt Romney with 27%, Newt Gingrich with 21%, and Ron Paul with 12%."

This is very very bad for Willard. Michigan is his home state. Perhaps writing an op-ed titled "Let Detroit go bankrupt" wasn't the smartest thing he ever did.

[Edited on February 13, 2012 at 11:22 AM. Reason : :]

2/13/2012 11:19:41 AM

This is why we're fucked.

2/13/2012 6:24:25 PM

^ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XubpOWD1o9A

2/13/2012 6:48:01 PM

Yeah, watched that when you posted it before. It's scary as hell and I don't know how we marginalize the fundamentalist faction of voters.

2/13/2012 6:49:49 PM

I think that as Gens X & Y gain more and more influence, that will help a lot and move us much more toward socially moderate and libertarian positions.

In the near term, I don't know of any other solution aside from MAYBE if someone like Santorum got nominated, and then of course made to look ridiculous and absolutely massacred, like Reagan/Mondale-style or worse, in the general election.

2/13/2012 7:41:45 PM

Republicans took a pretty solid loss in '08 and responded by becoming even more radicalized, which got them the House in '10. I don't think they've learned any lessons yet.

In my opinion, if you want to minimize the Christian-right's influence, you need to look at the factors that drive people to those sects. If people flock to religion during times of economic hardship and in the face of decreasing opportunity, then you gotta consider reducing those factors rather than shunning those people.

Venezuela is 96% Catholic, and yet they are not a theocracy. Poverty in Venezuela has actually decreased by about 25% in the past decade. Obviously, Venezuela is a left-wing government, and probably wouldn't fit your libertarian ideal (because any solution would probably require some basic redistribution of wealth -- which I imagine you fundamentally oppose), but the link between poverty and religious radicalism is probably a link that's worthy of inspection.


[Edited on February 13, 2012 at 8:26 PM. Reason : ]

2/13/2012 8:16:41 PM

Quote :

"Yeah, watched that when you posted it before. It's scary as hell and I don't know how we marginalize the fundamentalist faction of voters."

I'm seriously not trying to start a flame war, but did you watch the last part of that video? It's the corporate influence that is destroying politics. Like I said last week, we have to get the money out by any means necessary. They've got us backed into a legal corner with their monopoly on the system. Corruption is affecting Republicans AND Democrats. The only thing that can fix this and turn the momentum is a landmark ruling in the Supreme Court. Overturn Citizens United and start taking the country back.

2/13/2012 9:03:05 PM

^the FreedomWorks dude at about the 13 minute mark flat-out says that they (FreedomWorks) are driving the discussion. They don't even hide it. They're using the religious right as an army to push their agenda, and they're doing it pretty successfully.

2/13/2012 9:20:27 PM

It's almost as if they're sheep. A flock if you will.

2/13/2012 9:36:20 PM

Quote :

"I'm seriously not trying to start a flame war, but did you watch the last part of that video? It's the corporate influence that is destroying politics. Like I said last week, we have to get the money out by any means necessary. They've got us backed into a legal corner with their monopoly on the system. Corruption is affecting Republicans AND Democrats. The only thing that can fix this and turn the momentum is a landmark ruling in the Supreme Court. Overturn Citizens United and start taking the country back."

Citizens United really didn't change anything. Do you think corporatism took root in 2010?

The system is corrupt to the core. Overturning this or that won't make any difference. We need something more like a revolution.

2/13/2012 10:35:30 PM

Citizens United was the deathblow to American democracy, in my opinion.

You're right, it was corrupted and the corporate influence was strong before that, and the country was on the ropes. But that ruling was pretty much the Mortal Combat fatality combo to our liberal democracy. It turned our political system into a fundraising competition. Obama is trying to raise A BILLION fucking dollars for this campaign. It's no coincidence that he's now going to propose lowering the corporate tax rate just days after announcing his SuperPAC. The wants and desires of the citizenry in this country is now completely irrelevant.


[Edited on February 13, 2012 at 10:58 PM. Reason : ]

2/13/2012 10:46:15 PM

Quote :

"But that ruling was pretty much the Mortal Combat fatality combo to our liberal democracy."

This is a crude, but apt analogy.

I think the sad part about Obama signing on to the SuperPAC deal is that he might not even need it to win with the sad state the Republican party is in. Nevertheless, I totally understand why he did it.

PACs already existed and were quite powerful before 2010. But Citizens United allows for unlimited anonymous donations that might as well go directly to the candidates. They're still so new that no one really has an idea what they can get away with but we all saw Gingrich communicating openly with his SuperPAC and others are sure to do the same. The ruling didn't do all that much to change what SuperPACs can actually do to influence an election. It did, however, give massive power to the people controlling and funding those groups. It's a huge win for the corporatocracy and a huge blow to our democracy.

Like you said, we can either start rolling this back or have a revolution. I don't really have time for a revolution right now so maybe we can try the other one first and if it doesn't work then I'll find somewhere to pencil it in.

2/13/2012 11:10:22 PM

Monday: Clean the bathroom
Tuesday: Pay cable bill
Wednesday: Take Timmy to basketball practice
Thursday: Half-priced wings at Applebees
Friday: Movie night overthrow the government.

2/13/2012 11:14:14 PM

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57377175-503544/poll-rick-santorum-takes-slight-lead-in-gop-race/

Santorum takes the GOP lead, lol

gg republicans.

2/14/2012 8:59:09 AM

^
That's just one CBS news poll, but still terrifying.

[Edited on February 14, 2012 at 9:06 AM. Reason : .]

2/14/2012 9:05:57 AM