If they bomb went off, why would they wake up on the island?

Oh, and the bomb isn't going off.

5/7/2009 7:39:30 AM

Quote :

"I was disappointed in how clueless Alpert was, both in 1977 and 2008. He doesn't seem to know WTF is going on, no matter what year he's in. And we've been thinking he was some kind of all-knowing messenger this whole time."

I can sort of agree here, but the only news I heard of it being Alpert-centric was from this thread. I never read spoilers or new episode teasers and as such don't set up expectations for myself. If you build something up enough, its going to let you down. As for him being an all knowing messenger I believe we all assumed this due to his foresight, but it, much like that of elloise, was only a product of what those from the future had told him. to me it was pretty revealing about his character to see he is as clueless as everyone, despite his old age.

Quote :

"I'm dissatisfied with this clear-as-day time travel paradox."

I can sort of see where you're coming from but I think we have to accept that the events are part of an eternal loop. This applies to both the miles/dad/boat and the locke/alpert/bleed-out scenarios. mile's dad had always sent his family off the island and reasonably its because the future losties always told him that he needed to. same with locke. alpert always came to stop him because another version oof locke was always there to give him the message to do so.

Quote :

"I'll be beyond pissed off if that's what happens. Especially if the only explanation we get for it is, "People are the variables""

i don't think you have anything to worry about here. alpert mentioned that he did recognize the people from the photograph. he only met jack when they were going after the bomb. alpert also said he watched them all die. i can only imagine its due to the events unfolding at hand. the bomb will not go off.

5/7/2009 9:26:42 AM

Quote :

"No, I mean future John saving past John from bleeding out."

this particular time-travel loop is no different than any of the other loops that have occurred, where the actions of the time-traveling Losties lead directly or indirectly to events that will occur in their own [future, measured by years / past, measured by their own lives]. Just because this particular loop involved future Locke saving past Locke doesn't make it any different.

5/7/2009 9:33:36 AM

^yeah, I agree. I'm having trouble understanding, well, why some folks are having trouble understanding. I actually really like the way they're handling time travel and I think they've AVOIDED creating a Paradox (so far). It all has made sense and been easy to follow.

I'm also a member of the "whatever happened, happened" camp, and I hope that Daniel's "variable, we can change things" nonsense was without merit, b/c that would piss me right off. Just my $.02

[Edited on May 7, 2009 at 10:31 AM. Reason : .]

5/7/2009 10:29:47 AM

Quote :

"I actually really like the way they're handling time travel and I think they've AVOIDED creating a Paradox (so far)"

But they haven't avoided creating paradoxes. John/Alpert/bullet = paradox, Miles/Chang/sub = paradox

I can actually live with that, though.

The problem is that by trying to "reset" time and erase the past three years, they erase the need to ever reset time in the first place. That's the kind of paradox that's really bugging me and why I think the writers won't let that happen.

5/7/2009 10:41:52 AM

^^ i'm a little amazed that people are still having trouble with that as well. This has been addressed repeatedly; What happens has already happened and what happened is going to happen.

There is the whole "people are the variables" thing, but nobody knows if Daniel was right, if it was a pseudo-red herring, or maybe we are misinterpreting what he meant exactly*.


Lumex, it seems you accept that someone can go to the past and cause something to happen, but don't seem to be able to accept that someone came from the future and caused something to happen to begin with? Which is actually incorrect in this situation anyway. John did not travel back in time to save himself.

When we first saw this event some time ago, it was then Shot John's personal present (the world's future to him since he was jumping around with the flashes), but it was Resurrected John's present. It was always Resurrected John, told by "the island" when to do it, that brought Richard to help.

Nobody, that we know of yet, has gone to the past and actually saved themselves, anyone else, nor have they changed anything that we know of*. Although, they're trying that now. While Jack and them are trying to change things by setting the bomb off (which I don't think will happen, exactly*), I think ultimately it may be Eloise, Whidmore.. and maybe some other people who are trying to change things*.

*I'll share my crackpot theory/ies later.


^, I think it's only a paradox if the person specifically comes/goes back to change something that already happened. John has always sent richard to save himself and Chang has always met mils and evacuated people. They haven't changed anything as far we know.

[Edited on May 7, 2009 at 10:46 AM. Reason : ^^ and response to ^]

5/7/2009 10:44:36 AM

dub

[Edited on May 7, 2009 at 10:52 AM. Reason : ]

5/7/2009 10:51:13 AM

Quote :

"Chang has always met mils and evacuated people"

Yeah, but Chang saved Baby Miles because Old Miles told him to.

Old Miles would not be there had he not been saved as a baby. He created a situation (saving himself) that allowed him to later create that exact situation.

I understand that what happened, happened; Old Miles was always there, I get that. But it's a time loop no matter how you shake it.

Just like Locke telling Alpert when he was going to be born, or to pull the bullet out of his leg.

Like I said, I can deal with these kinds of loops, it's the bomb/variable idea that's absurd.

5/7/2009 10:52:40 AM

Quote :

"nor have they changed anything that we know of"

that sums it up and is why i suggest there have been no paradoxes

5/7/2009 10:54:51 AM

Quote :

"But they haven't avoided creating paradoxes. John/Alpert/bullet = paradox, Miles/Chang/sub = paradox"

that's not so much a paradox as it is an internally consistent time-loop. There is nothing in any of these actions that prevent or change a past or future action.


A true paradox would be if Daniel went into the camp and shot Eloise. That way, Daniel would never be born, then he could not go back and shoot Eloise --> paradox

Or if future-Miles, for some reason, killed baby-Miles. Then, future-Miles would cease to exist and could not kill baby-Miles --> paradox

5/7/2009 11:09:23 AM

Yeah, paradox was the wrong term.

I tried to quietly fix that in my last post.

5/7/2009 11:11:46 AM

^^Exactly. Ref: "The Grandfather Paradox." Everything we've seen to date only strengthens what we've been led to believe: that whatever happened, happened. It's my opinion that all of this "variable" and "we can change things" nonsense is just to make us doubt, and that all this stuff that Jack is doing to try to change things will actually end up causing whatever it is that shaped the story as we know it. Jack thinks it's his destiny to change things, when actually it's his "destiny" or "purpose" to simply execute what has always happend.

Just like how Sayid tried to change things by killing Ben, which directly resulted in Ben being taken to the Others and presumabely shaped into who he became. Without that, who knows what could've happend.

Just like how Daniel tried to change things by approaching the Others, which directly resulted in his death at the hands of his own mother, which from previous episodes we learned had always happened.

One last thought... What does Jack think will happen to him and the rest of the castaways if he were actually able to change things. He says they'll go back to normal, but how? Is he assuming there will be a flash and that he'll get magically zapped into the future with all new memories of "normal" life and no recollection of the island? Lame.

[Edited on May 7, 2009 at 11:23 AM. Reason : extra ^ b/c I'm too damn long winded]

5/7/2009 11:21:34 AM

^^ right - well, in that case, this is nothing new. We started dealing with time-loops at the beginning of this season. We've discovered that nearly everythign that has happened on the island is somehow related to the time-traveling Losties, and therefore they're all part of the giant time-loop.

Just with the past couple episodes have we seen the time travelers interact directly, or closely, with themselves or their parents. Maybe instinctually this seems like it would create more of a paradox-situation, but logically, it is no different than anything else that has happened this season.

[Edited on May 7, 2009 at 11:28 AM. Reason : .]

5/7/2009 11:26:15 AM

Quote :

"What does Jack think will happen to him and the rest of the castaways if he were actually able to change things. He says they'll go back to normal, but how? Is he assuming there will be a flash and that he'll get magically zapped into the future with all new memories of "normal" life and no recollection of the island? Lame."

Yes, incredibly lame. He's on this mission to detonate the bomb now because of a 30-second conversation with a wacky physicist. None of it makes sense at all and I really hope for the sake of the show that bomb does not go off.

5/7/2009 11:26:57 AM

yeah, it's definitely a loop.

I don't like the "people are variables" in the way it's being looked at now either. Hopefully, it's either intended to cause doubt as spydyrwyr said or it was intentionally vague.

With the vague comment, I think there's another way to look at it (with some assumptions about Daniel's intentions) that may make more sense, specifically considering some stuff from previous episodes/seasons. At least as far as fictional time-travel goes. But i want to at least make sure i have my Lost facts straight before spouting it off and making myself look like a complete jackass. which may happen anyhow.

5/7/2009 11:27:11 AM

i'm ready for the season finale.

think we will find out who jacob is?

5/7/2009 11:44:15 AM

HA

5/7/2009 11:46:16 AM

i dont know if this was mentioned previously, but all the dharma people are wiped out somehow right? so was it jack who killed them all while trying to prevent everything from happening? the preview showed him charging in and shooting, i couldn't tell if he had people with him. i dunno

5/7/2009 11:48:13 AM

that could have been a clip from last weeks, and the purge was much later in time, as is made clear by ben's age.

5/7/2009 11:53:20 AM

All the other paradox's are ambiguous at best. John's is the only one that is a clear-cut, isolated loop with no outside influence.

Miles isnt the catalyst to saving his own life. There are other factors. He didn't need to be there for his father to send them off the island.

5/7/2009 1:01:20 PM

lol at Chang's mind game with Hurley

5/7/2009 1:26:07 PM

If Ben made Jacob up so he could do what he wanted, I hope Locke kills Ben in front of everyone.

5/7/2009 1:53:31 PM

Ben didn't invent Jacob, he just never actually spoke with him.

Or so we've been lead to believe.

5/7/2009 2:15:00 PM

Quote :

"But it's a time loop no matter how you shake it."

What reason would they have for taking the losties back 30 years other than to make timeloops?

Hurley also saw someone in jacob's cabin. Maybe John meant 'kill' him as in prove to everyone that he didn't exist in the way that richard and ben led them to believe.

[Edited on May 7, 2009 at 2:33 PM. Reason : more]

5/7/2009 2:24:46 PM

i think Ben is jacob, or he made up jacob...and he's getting ready to be called out...

also...when alpert looked at the photo and said "i watched them die"....i don't know if he directly meant jack, hurley, etc... i think he was referring to the dharma initiative and how he watched them all die when ben purged them

5/7/2009 3:35:13 PM

Swing and a miss, BDub

Swing and a miss

5/7/2009 3:47:07 PM

not really digging where they have taken this the last few weeks

probably the least excited i've ever been about a Lost series finale

5/7/2009 3:49:53 PM

Ben is not jacob.

Remember that the whole reason ben became leader is that Charles said that jacob wanted the ben to kill alex, and ben questioned whether charles was speaking from or for jacob.

I'm pretty sure they also mentioned jacob when kate first brought ben to the others.

5/7/2009 3:49:57 PM

Quote :

"Ben didn't invent Jacob, he just never actually spoke with him. Or so we've been lead to believe."

i think hes spoken with Jacob, just never seen him. Ben wasn't surprised at all last season that Jacob told Locke he had to move the island, he was very surprised however that Locke said he actually saw Jacob

5/7/2009 4:00:39 PM

Not being able to see Jacob wouldn't really mean anything, it's the instructions that matter.

Actually, I don't think anyone has ever seen Jacob.

5/7/2009 4:11:26 PM

Quote :

"Charles said that jacob wanted the ben to kill alex, and ben questioned whether charles was speaking from or for jacob. "

I thought that was the island, not Jacob.

5/7/2009 4:15:50 PM

Quote :

"he was very surprised however that Locke said he actually saw Jacob"

I don't remember Locke ever saying that he had ever seen Jacob. I do remember Ben's "deer-in-the-headlights" look when Locke called Ben out for never having seen Jacob, "you've never seen him... have you?"

^I'm pretty sure Jacob was referenced explicitly by Ben in that scenario.

[Edited on May 7, 2009 at 4:20 PM. Reason : ^]

5/7/2009 4:18:26 PM

I remember ben initially being suprised that John thought he heard jacob say something. at the time i wasn't sure if this was because ben himself couldn't hear anything or that only others could hear him.

5/7/2009 4:42:27 PM

$10 says Vincent is Jacob

5/7/2009 4:52:34 PM

^ well duh, they confirmed that on the last podcast

5/7/2009 5:12:39 PM

Quote :

"lol at Chang's mind game with Hurley"

Who is the President?

Uh, Ok. We're from the future.

I do like that they are tying in things already covered by Back to the Future -- Sawyer telling Juliet they'll bet on the Cowboys to win the Super Bowl or buy Microsoft.

5/8/2009 12:35:59 AM

The funniest part about Chang asking him that is remembering back when they were just showing up to Darmaville and Hurley asked Sawyer who the president was and Sawyer said something like "relax, this isn't a quiz show".

5/8/2009 12:45:04 AM

Hurley brings teh funnay

5/8/2009 12:57:23 AM

^^Ha! I'd forgotten about that. Good catch.

^^^Yep, and remember Hurley looking intensly at his hands and when asked what he was doing he said, "checking to see if I'm fading away," or something like that and referenced Marty McFly or Back to the Future.

5/8/2009 8:37:10 AM

really liking where this is going. The questions Locke asks and the way he has taken command - its almost like he has been reading message boards full of posters who cant stand not knowing about jacob/the island/etc. anymore...

5/8/2009 5:33:02 PM

Quote :

"Then again, I see no connection between Desmond Hume and David Hume what so ever"

which also leads me to wonder how they are going to work desmond back into the equation next season...

5/8/2009 5:40:16 PM

i get the feeling that Sawyer is gonna get offed in the finale

5/8/2009 6:06:47 PM

so, hey....

what about that bounty hunter chick and the other ethnic guy in 2007?

just saying..

5/8/2009 11:30:13 PM

the other ethnic guy, Caesar, got blasted with a shot gun from close range,

5/8/2009 11:37:53 PM

well, I'm hoping they were tossaway characters

but from what I've watched, you never die--for sure--just cause you got shot on the island

also, just as a stupid idea, didn't sawyer name himself after his dad who was a grifter? how old is he again, anyway? it's the grandfather/motorcycle/etc paradox!

nah they'll be back on the island in like minute 4 fasho...

[Edited on May 9, 2009 at 12:29 AM. Reason : .]

5/9/2009 12:28:08 AM

but if you die on the island

you die for realz

5/9/2009 12:29:37 AM

^^he took it from Locke's dad, who conned his mom

5/9/2009 1:07:16 AM

yeah, you're right

my season 3 is rusty

redirect the sub, losties, your execution is waiting!

[Edited on May 9, 2009 at 1:35 AM. Reason : .]

5/9/2009 1:33:35 AM

So, if Daniel dies at the hand of his mom before he was actually born, how does Whidmore hire him to go to the island in 2008?

Is he actually dead?

5/11/2009 11:23:50 AM

he died after he was hired.

5/11/2009 11:25:08 AM