Are you sure it would be 8-6?

The guys I know that work in medium-to-large firms are pulling at least 12 hour days.

10/18/2011 2:34:43 PM

^

It varies. A kid I went to law school works for them and is swamped one week and goes in for half days on Fridays for others. I would not mind 50-55 hr weeks with the occasional 60+ sprinkled in there every now and then.

10/18/2011 2:42:14 PM

Nobody can really make that decision for you jbrick83

You have to factor in the personal costs and your mental fitness to endure a couple more years of risk to obtain a salary you could obtain now.

It seems from my understanding (and I could be wrong), that the benefits seem to favor accepting their offer and aligning yourself with this firm.

I am in a similar position where I gave up a salary and a job I loved to go back to school to become a surgeon. But, this is what I feel like I've been "called" to do. So, I'm going for it with everything I've got.

I hope everything turns out well for you. Best wishes.

10/19/2011 11:47:15 AM

Quote :

"Anybody here working for a medium/large firm? I hung my own shingle about 6 months ago and things are going well, but inconsistent. I can crush it one month and then it's crickets chirping the next months. I know it's suppose to take a little while (especially in this economy) to build that consistent client base, but I'm extremely impatient. Opposing counsel in a small lawsuit I was involved with was impressed with how I handled my client's case and they've asked me if I would be interested in joining their firm (20 attorneys split between 3 offices). I'm extremely torn just thinking about it. The positives and negatives are pretty apparent. Immediate salary from them would probably double what I'm making right now...but I'm pretty confident I could reach that income as a solo attorney in 5 years, 7 years tops (every young solo guy I've met has hit that level in that amount of time). With big law firm I wouldn't have to worry about all the little shit (I have no secretary or paralegal) and it would be CONSISTENT (I capitalize that word because it's very important). After years of bartending crazy hours while in law school and while getting this firm started, I'd love to have a consistent Mon-Fri, 8-6pm job. I've been pretty excited about my current endeavor...but I also wasn't expecting this opportunity with a great firm to come along. Thoughts from people with experience with the big firms?"

stay solo if you can, man.

are you part of an office share, by chance? if not, consider looking for one.

i may know of one right now if you're in Raleigh. you'll be killing it in a few years and maintain that autonomy you have now. with an office share, you could split the costs of support staff and also get some work kicked to you from the guys who are already established in the office share.

11/4/2011 8:11:58 PM

^ I'm in Charleston.

Quote :

"are you part of an office share, by chance? if not, consider looking for one."

I'm in an office by myself...but my overhead is pretty low. I have a ridiculous location on King St in Charleston and I only pay $450 a month for a pretty big office. Only "utilities" I have are $20 a month for a phone line, $7/month to fax through email, and $30/month for a virtual secretary.


I thought the option for the larger firm had disappeared, but I just got a call to set up an interview on Friday. I should be happy to possibly have the option, but my stomach is churning thinking about making this decision.

11/7/2011 1:44:51 PM

Anybody have any experience interviewing with big firms? I've honestly never been to a serious job interview. First attorney I worked for was a friend and the second one pretty much hired me before I met him (through email). That interview was more of a formality.

I plan on researching the firm and make sure I know all about them. After that, just be able to talk about all of my work experiences. I don't know what else I should expect.

11/8/2011 10:56:12 AM

Yeah, I interviewed with pretty much all biglaw during this most recent OCI session, and one of the places I'll be working this summer is McDermott Will & Emory in D.C., which has over a thousand attorneys.

The thing they really want to know is whether you'll be a good fit for their culture and climate. I am on the Student Faculty Recruitment Committee at Wake, and we are interviewing potential faculty members now, and it's the exact same as the callbacks I went on, so I imagine even though you're technically a lateral hire it will run the same way. I think the legal hiring process is pretty much the same at every firm.

They'll bounce you off half a dozen or so different people, who will each spend some time talking with you. In the alternative, I did have one firm where they all sat around a conference table and we chatted, but that was via Skype, so it was an exception.

If they are bringing you in, then you have likely passed the hurdle of whether or not you have the credentials to merit working at their firm. The key is that if they are going to be working with you on a regular basis, they want to know how you will mesh with other employees, what your long term goals are, and whether that is a fit with their expectations. I think the thing you can most focus on is just being yourself. I have done plenty of research on individuals that were interviewing me, memorizing their background histories and publications, major cases, etc., but in the end, I had the best results when I treated it like an opportunity to really ask the questions I had about them.

Like, you have expressed a fair number of concerns over the last few posts...I would be frank about those concerns, and ask what individual associates and partners think about them. Ask them if they are satisfied with their work, and the amount of freedom they have. Ask about their schedules. Ask about whatever is important to you long term. You are interviewing them for a good fit as much as anything else. I see too many folks who look at these interviews as just an opportunity to sell yourself to get the job no matter what, but don't forget that this is your chance to see if this firm is really worth you leaving behind your independent practice.

(Oh, and just to add my opinion on the staying solo or working for a firm choice...I think you should definitely work for a firm, even a small one. In teaching, we were always encouraged to borrow from more experienced teachers, and don't try to reinvent the wheel on everything. The firm will have a lot of people who can mentor you, who can show you the basic forms to use, who can save you lots of time on figuring every little thing out yourself. In the end, if you really want to be independent, you can take that experience from 3-5 years working as part of a firm and branch out on your own. I see a lot of solo practitioners who take forever to get going because they spend so much time learning basic techniques and methods on their own, instead of benefiting from others who have blazed the trail before them. At the very least, try to hook up with a mentor in the legal community you are in. Just my two cents, though.)

[Edited on November 8, 2011 at 1:43 PM. Reason : d]

11/8/2011 1:39:02 PM

So... I'm getting my LLM in Taxation next year.

1/30/2012 7:28:46 PM

Where at

1/30/2012 10:32:39 PM

[redacted]

[Edited on January 31, 2012 at 8:30 AM. Reason : ]

1/31/2012 8:30:21 AM

I thought you hated law school and didn't want to be a lawyer?

1/31/2012 8:46:52 AM

No, I did hate law school for a little, but I never said I didn't want to be a lawyer. I had a bad experience with a legal clinic. I actually enjoyed my first 2 years, but this 7-credit clinic consumed my life and I was forced to work with some very unpleasant people for an extensive period of time.

This semester I'm spending most of my time at this pretty awesome internship doing work that I actually enjoy. I'll make a good career out of it.

1/31/2012 9:41:44 AM

Quote :

"I feel like shit, and law school sucks. 1L FTL. "

Quote :

"I wish I didn't have to come up with a different reason every day why I shouldn't just drop out of law school. I'm so bored with my fucking life right now. I'm half way through, but I'm already over it. Next year I won't get my merit scholarship no matter how well I do, and I've finished my core classes... This shit just sucks now. I even picked up a fucking x-game to try to make my life more interesting. I go snowboarding twice a week. I'm still always bored though. "

Quote :

"^ Yeah, ever since I registered with the LSAC to take the LSAT and paid all those fees, I got the feeling that I was getting had by a racket. That's all it is, a fuckin racket."

Quote :

"My friends studying for the bar are all going nuts. I'm not going to take it. I'm going to graduate from law school then become a famous rapper and just make my money that way."

Quote :

"I fucking hate fucking law school so fucking much."

Quote :

"I'm a 3rd year, I'm going to follow through. I can't say what I don't like about it, but it isn't the subject matter or the difficulty. It's certain people in power..."

Just saying....


Glad you've gotten over that though. I wasn't the biggest fan of law school either and was indifferent towards becoming a lawyer (still am...at being one). But you gotta do something I guess!! Good luck with the LLM. I definitely couldn't do it. No mas escuela!

1/31/2012 10:30:12 AM

hahaha, well I'm still going full steam ahead on my path to becoming a rapper!

1/31/2012 10:36:47 AM

i've got a really tough decision to make for this summer

i'm pretty sure i'm going to get offered at least one of the two internships i interviewed for this week, one with the General Assembly Research Division and one with the DOJ Education Section. I also got offered the NC Justice Academy but thats geographically difficult.

2/18/2012 4:16:28 PM

What do you want to do when you get out? Because the general presumption is that if you do well over your 2L summer, that will in large part determine where you work after graduation.

I know it's different with firms and internships, but the connections are similar. Also, which do you think you have a better chance of scoring a post grad job with?

2/19/2012 4:53:52 AM

Also, which one will afford you the better opportunity to learn new things and get more experiences. If all you do with one is drafting, and another gives you the opportunity to do other things, like hearings, depositions, etc., you may want the one that gives you more experience.

But, in the end, you're expecting to be offered 2 jobs, which is more than what most of your classmates can say. So, in that sense, you can't exactly go wrong here.

2/19/2012 9:02:45 AM

The DOJ section is run like a firm - they handle all the litigation for the university system and k-12 boards so i wouldn't be researching issues, she said they would give me a case and say "we want to argue this here, make the argument in a pleading or motion" and then there is occasional policy discussion and meetings to attend - they also handle criminal appeals every now and then

The General Assembly is obviously all research (which is what I do now and enjoy) and it was said it was much more informal and email/in-person based discussion. I have alot more personal interest in gaining insight in what the legislature is educated on and how I can help.

I have no idea which one has more "job opportunity" attached but if i had to guess I would say DOJ, at least directly, while General Assembly is more "connections opportunity".

2/19/2012 12:38:02 PM

I'd go with DOJ then. Also,

http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html

2/19/2012 3:21:36 PM

reddit has convinced me that there are certain common mistakes in grammar that should be left to evolve into their intended meaning

i'm more concerned that i have fellow students and teachers that can't spell past a 6th grade level

2/19/2012 4:09:15 PM

Take DOJ because I want to work for the General Assembly.

2/19/2012 11:32:31 PM

nice, just got offer call from DOJ - i like that Friday-Monday turnaround time, who says govt is slow

2/20/2012 2:20:54 PM

Sweet. I had to decide between state+local and federal for my tax internship this spring. I chose state+local and I love it.

Time to make connections!

2/21/2012 11:34:55 AM

I'm trying to weigh the decision of going to law school. (Words).

Ok so I got into Campbell Law (only school I applied to because I like Raleigh and my LSAT was only a 150). I got a $7,500 a year scholarship.

In undergrad, law school was all I wanted to do. I had that bad LSAT score and even after taking a prep course, it doesn't look like I'm going to be able to bring it up much. Reasoning and reading I did very well with. The games, not so much. Out of undergrad I only got into Charlotte and Central's night program (which I probably should have done). Got wait listed at South Carolina and William and Mary (what a tease). Had a 150 and a 3.77 (political science) when I applied. Good work experience and a year and a half internship with a small firm in Raleigh.

I decided to wait and take some grad courses and really enjoyed them. Ended up getting into the MIS program at State and found that it was impractical in a lot of ways, so I declared a dual master's with the MPA and finish in May - both degrees in two years with graduate certificate in public policy, spanish, and I may test in French too. I have a good job working at State (non-student job that could become permanent, but right now is a contract because our grant is up for renewal from the DOD).

I really want to go to law school, and I think I would make a very good attorney but I'm concerned with the financial commitment. Right now I'm 60k in the hole and figure another 78k for tuition over three years plus, what, another $15,000 a year in living expenses? Making my debt without interest added in at about $183,000 is it normal to have that much coming out of law school? If you add in the opportunity costs - I could probably earn around 50k a year starting out full time, so adding another $150,000 I could have made working to that puts it up to $333k....

Is the law market even worth it to enter into with all of these considerations? i.e. do you think my current degrees in the long run - say 10-20 years - will end up netting more than I could have made if I had just walked with these master's?

thanks in advance to anyone that read all this and has any helpful advice.

3/15/2012 2:17:58 PM

^ It's a personal decision. So if that's what you want to do, do it. Do you know what you want to do with your law degree (like specific area of law?)? If it's technical, you might even look into an LLM afterwards, which would only up the loan amount.

On the surface, I would tell you not to do it. NC is ridiculously saturated with attorneys and it's only gotten worse with the two new law schools. Campbell isn't a bad law school despite it's "tier", and it's well respected in NC where everybody went there and you have connections....but not outside of it. So you're more than likely stuck in NC.

But that is a shit ton of money. Mine is probably a third of that, I make decent money (after opening my own firm with limited job openings in this shitty economy), and that loan payment every month is a pain in the ass.

If you know you're going to be that big in the hole, I would have a good idea/plan on what kind of job you're going to get when you get out.

3/15/2012 3:00:48 PM

my dad is a commercial real estate developer so he wants me to go the real estate law route so I can help with him and use his connections when he retires to do development of my own.

I also have the cliche vision of battling it out in court and criminal seems the must fun/interesting. I know hardly any cases go to trial but I was thinking JAG or the DA for a few years to get that 60,000 towards student loan debt. If I went with JAG I'd try to go Naval in that recruitment program they have where you apply at the end of 1L. I could possibly do maritime law or something after leaving that, or at least have some good experience.

Campbell's trust and wealth management dual degree (3 years total for both) also looks appealing. One of my best friends is sitting for his CFP and he's probably the best salesman I've ever seen. just ridiculously motivated - he's aggressive and shameless as well - and we've joked about starting a wealth management firm one day, but it could be a real possibility.

also, I'm from Raleigh and love it here and have no intention of leaving really.

[Edited on March 15, 2012 at 3:30 PM. Reason : .]

3/15/2012 3:29:25 PM

Just to let you know...JAG and DA are pretty tough to get into. Not trying to deter you, just letting you know that you will have to work your ass off to get those kind of jobs.

The Real Estate thing is a good idea. Wish I had gotten into it a little while I was in law school, but had a friend doing and it looked boring as fuck. Which it is...but if you have a few ins and can get a lot of closings, it's decent money. It also gives you an inside track on good investments.

3/15/2012 3:36:12 PM

I keep looking at law school, again, and again. Someone please talk me out of this!

I keep looking at jd mba, and jd mac programs, in addition to the wealth/estate planning stuff (like ^^), and real estate law (like ^^).

Someone please talk me out of this!

3/15/2012 3:55:19 PM

The market is far too saturated as it is.

3/15/2012 4:20:26 PM

i would wait until you see the outcomes from some of these law school lawsuits. maybe something will change (probably not).

also just for some perspective - my LSAT would have gotten me into top 30 - my GPA would have gotten me an application for McDonald's - My GPA in law school is the same - I had 2 years work experience - I got no scholarship (where I attend) - I have 2 summer jobs while most of my classmates don't have 1 - up eyeballs in debt

and i wouldnt change a thing (other than demand for a scholarship which many people at my school did when they were accepted - they negotiated their own)

3/15/2012 5:00:45 PM

^^^I'll help you guys a little on the real estate stuff...

Unless you've got a really good in....those guys aren't hiring. And it's worse than the other areas of law.

My roommate in law school clerked at the biggest real estate law firm in Charleston for three years. All the new associates back then were getting 60/70K jobs right out of law school and he was set to do the same. The bubble burst, economy went in the shitter, and he was dropped to 50k, then 45k, and then 40k just a year into the firm. Next thing you know he's only commission on what he collects (not even what he bills). He can't cover his school loans (probably a combined 125k from undergrad/grad/law school) and daily living expenses. Luckily he met, got pregnant, and married a Physician's Assistant who made bank. They moved and he got out of real estate law and is in bumfuck SC working in litigation making a little bit better money.

So the guys who have been in real estate law are being very stingy right now. They're not teaching any young guys how to do they're job because it's slim pickings and they don't want anybody undercutting them.

So if you've got a connection, take it. But I wouldn't go into law school right now thinking that real estate was a good option.

3/15/2012 6:44:36 PM

do you get pigeonholed based on your concentration? if I take elective in real estate does that mean I'll be screwed trying to get a job in criminal? or are general areas like family law, criminal, employment, basic contracts, etc. kind of covered by the jd in general? I see how it helps but is it the same as a major in college or is your concentration like a minor?

3/16/2012 2:39:20 AM

^Not at all. Its even less than a "concentration" in undergrad. You're first year of law school you don't even get to pick classes. Its all required. I would say 2nd year is like 80% "pre-scheduled" (maybe 100%, but you at least get to pick when you take them). 3rd year you finally get to pick some classes, but its really difficult to "concentrate". You'll probably get to take 2 classes that are specific to an area of law, but some only one (I remember there only being one advanced family law class).

What matters more than classes are the jobs you get during the summer (or even during the year). If you want to do real estate, then try and clerk for a real estate firm during the summer. You don't graduate knowing how to practice law anyways. Probably my biggest gripe about law school. A lot of money to pay for a degree that doesn't really teach you how to do your profession.

3/16/2012 6:49:28 AM

^This is spot on. You really don't want to overly concentrate in classes, or else you will miss out on taking all your Bar courses, or being well rounded in what you understand.

I will caution anyone who is considering going to law school right now. Take a serious look at your finances, and if you can't get good scholarships, I would wait. As is mentioned, the market is flooded, and most of the class that I graduated with is still not employed. My firm just hired a guy who graduated in 07, and this is his first real job out.

Campbell, is well respected by those who went to Campbell. It is not revered by most other schools graduates, and it's expensive. There are quite a few people saying Charlotte and Campbell need to be closed to "protect the market". If you can't get into Carolina, I urge you to consider cheaper alternatives to Campbell. NCCU is an excellent choice, and you can take a night school option to continue working at the same time. But if you can't get into some place like UNC, you really should consider if it's worth the money.

3/16/2012 7:16:13 AM

^Why should they close Campbell? That place has been around forever and doesn't it now have its campus in Raleigh? I think there should be a law school in every capital city.

If anything, close Charlotte and Elon. I can't believe two more law schools opened in NC. Greedy ass schools.

3/16/2012 8:05:34 AM

and of those: close Charlotte, lol. 900+ more lawyers?! are you kidding me! I can't imagine 1/5 of those can get jobs unless they are outside the state.

also Elon had a meeting last week and just got rid of concentrations, effective immediately. methinks some percentage of the 3L class couldn't graduate without it and so they just threw it out the window. if true, i hate how they coddle sometimes.

[Edited on March 16, 2012 at 8:18 AM. Reason : h]

3/16/2012 8:16:38 AM

I'm not saying they should close Charlotte, but if you are going to shut down law schools in NC, don't shut down one of the most established where the majority of NC attorneys went (they wouldn't let it happen anyways). Close down the most recent that shouldn't have opened in the first place.

Regardless...the bottom line is that NC is way too saturated with attorneys and law schools. If I were thinking about law school right now, knowing what I know, I definitely wouldn't go that route. Maybe wait a few years to see how the market turns around or look somewhere else in the country.

3/16/2012 10:52:18 AM

Yeah, come up to DC! There aren't enough lawyers in DC.

3/16/2012 12:12:56 PM

Quote :

"Regardless...the bottom line is that NC is way too saturated with attorneys and law schools. If I were thinking about law school right now, knowing what I know, I definitely wouldn't go that route. Maybe wait a few years to see how the market turns around or look somewhere else in the country."

Yes, I think that was the point of the discussion. It was the Judge I was speaking to who said shut down Campbell. Their argument was that Elon would take its place, and surpass it in ranking. But, it's not really relevant, because neither is getting shut down. The point is, if you can't compete with the best of the 7+ law schools in the state, then you shouldn't be thinking about law school at this point. The jobs just aren't there, and the debt is crushing, wherever you go, if you don't have scholarships.

3/16/2012 1:38:05 PM

shouldn't be too hard to compete with "not ranked"

3/16/2012 1:51:33 PM

I'm not sure I get your comment? Who isn't ranked?

My "competing" comment was directed at the people who want to go to law schools. If they can't compete with the best students out there, they shouldn't be going to law school, no matter whether they go to Duke, Carolina, Elon or NC Central, because they aren't going to get jobs at the end of their 3 years.

[Edited on March 16, 2012 at 7:16 PM. Reason : ]

3/16/2012 7:14:44 PM

well for one, you really dont know whether you're a "best student" or not until the end of your first year in law school... from there, the caste system sets itself up between the haves and the have-nots.

That said, i find the quitters mentality a little bothersome. If this is what you want to do, don't let anyone get in the way of that. Not the job market, not the name of your school... because ultimately you make your own way regardless of any of that.

3/16/2012 7:32:06 PM

I think if you are asking if law school is the right thing, it probably isn't. There are plenty of reasons not to go to law school, and a lot of people are getting fucked out the door. But for a certain group, it's everything they ever imagined and more.

I never had any doubts about law school, and it was the best career decision I ever made. The doors that will be open to me and the type of life I will have as a result would have been impossible otherwise, regardless of hard work and competency.

As for the debt, with what you're talking about, you really only have two options, and in all honesty, likely only one realistic option. You can put in your ten years in any public sector job and get your law school debt forgiven (JAG is unattainable now unless you're among the elite because of how many people want in, and they are reducing the numbers anyway. DOJ and USAO are the same. D.A.'s offices pay shit coming out of school and are also generally very competitive, except in smaller communities. Think less 60k and more 40k.), or you can kick ass and get a firm job paying six figures and pay it off that way. But unless you are an excellent law student, that will be almost impossible coming out of Campbell. It's hard anywhere, but that even moreso.

I know a fair number of people here who are not pleased with their choice to go to law school, and I know others who absolutely love it. If you love every minute of it and the career it will entail, then fuck the debt...do it anyway. Finding a job you love is priceless.

(I should be clear the first statement above means that it can be a very hard road, and the only way you should pursue it is if you absolutely are enthralled with the law and your future in it.)

[Edited on March 16, 2012 at 8:02 PM. Reason : wer]

3/16/2012 7:58:48 PM

Quote :

"well for one, you really dont know whether you're a "best student" or not until the end of your first year in law school... from there, the caste system sets itself up between the haves and the have-nots."

I refuse to believe that you don't have an idea on how you will perform ahead of time.

FYI, I graduated top 15% at UNC, excellent resume, and I still got stuck between choosing a job I wanted that paid crap, and a job I wouldn't hate that paid fairly well. Neither was paying enough to write home to Mom about. But one would cover student loan debt, and the other would not.

If law school is what you want to do, by all means, do it. But be prepared that it's not all sunshine and daisies, and unless you are one of the best, AND you have connections, it's going to be a tough path.

I don't regret law school at all, so don't get me wrong, but it's got to be something you're ready to do 100%.

[Edited on March 16, 2012 at 8:08 PM. Reason : ]

3/16/2012 8:05:35 PM

^actually, in my experience almost everyone thinks they are the best when they show up. law school attracts huge egos, and also attracts people who have always been more successful than those around them. it's amazing how before the first semester grades come out (every school is slightly different, some wait to rank until after the first year), everyone is an expert on how to do things properly.

then, after grades and rankings are released, all those people who knew they were going to do really well end up shutting up and not saying a word anymore...it's like crickets.

maybe where you went was different, but that's how it it at Wake.

[Edited on March 16, 2012 at 8:21 PM. Reason : sdf]

3/16/2012 8:12:41 PM

Quote :

"I'm not sure I get your comment? Who isn't ranked? "

Campbell isn't ranked anymore. at least not published. It just went with your comment before, I wasn't meaning it as a dig, but all Elon has to do is get ranked next year (the first year we would be eligible to be ranked).

3/16/2012 8:21:11 PM

Quote :

"maybe where you went was different, but that's how it it at Wake."

Yeah, either it was different when I was at UNC, or I just didn't pay attention to that kind of crap.

3/16/2012 8:36:05 PM

Would it make any difference in getting a public job if I had guaranteed clerkships with the state supreme court? Also, I'll have my MPA and a master of essentially political science, which may help to set me apart somewhat.

If I went the real estate route, my parents do commercial development and, by extension, know pretty much all of the big real estate law people in Raleigh. I know my dad has told me on multiple occasions he could get me several interviews if I went that route.

I've spoken with some Campbell students that are doing the JD/MPA and they said that Campbell's first year is notorious for being absolute hell and that they grade on a strict curve, meaning that people in every class fail. She said that they lost over 40 people from their 1L class because they failed out and that Campbell's average GPA really suffers because of the system, making it nearly impossible (or more impossible) to transfer somewhere.

[Edited on March 17, 2012 at 3:28 PM. Reason : ps - thanks for all the comments thus far, they have been very insightful ]

3/17/2012 3:28:03 PM

If you have a guaranteed clerkship with the State Supreme Court, then you have a huge advantage on the job front. But how in the world do you have a guaranteed clerkship?

3/17/2012 3:51:37 PM

my dad's best friend is a well respected Judge. this was according to him but you never know, it could turn out to be a wash. Also, he's a Republican so he might not have the pull he once did. He's a professor at Campbell also.

3/19/2012 11:55:34 PM