I picked up some KFT today - hoping for a bounce back tomorrow.

9/8/2009 9:29:14 PM

Any thoughts on the upcoming A123 ipo?

9/9/2009 11:52:37 AM

Contemplating ERY

9/9/2009 12:21:30 PM

wow, i am speechless at this point. i basically went 100% short with my free cash last week after we dumped almost 200 points on strong volume (on wednesday). i really thought that day was the beginning of a trend reversal. what a mistake that has been. i can't believe the market just tossed that day aside and kept moving up from there. i finally covered most of my positions today. something is going on here that no one seems to understand, and i am not going to try to get in the way of it again.

i keep telling myself to volume is too light but until sellers start to grow a pair there is no stopping the bull.

9/10/2009 4:13:18 PM

^ I also expected a pullback this week. So I did not pull the trigger on ETFC, which is up a little over 10% since last week.

well, i'm just glad i didn't lose any money.

9/10/2009 4:21:42 PM

Picked up some YUM and MCD this week. Just some large cap companies that I plan to sit on for a while and likely won't see any major drops if theres a pullback.

Any good gold stocks besides IAU and GLD? I spent all afternoon yesterday looking at those and all I came up with UGL and GDX, neither of which I'm crazy about, though GDX had some decent option premiums for a non-leveraged ETF.

9/10/2009 4:37:55 PM

Here is kind of an interesting little correlation, basic on Google Domestic Trends [tip to CalcluatedRiskBlog where I got the general idea]

This link: http://www.google.com/finance?q=GOOGLEINDEX_US:INVEST is an graph of google trends for investment based keywords...if you compare it to .INX that will overlay the S&P 500 index.

I'm not sure how strong the correlation is, but there seems to be a trend that as the interest in investment keywords declines, the index is generally increasing, and when the interest increases, shortly afterwards the index starts declining (especially true as the trends good above and below the 20% line).

It is a kind of throw-away analysis, I know, but this data would tend to suggest, one, we are near a local maximum in the index (unless investment trends breaks below the -20% line significantly for the first time), two, that we might expect to see a sharp uptick in the search trendline shortly before the index begins a decline, and three, how steep and high the search trendline increases will likely determine the extent of the fall.

9/10/2009 4:40:59 PM

Ummm, hmmm. All the way until the economy blew up, the search index was mostly bouncing around between +-20%. I'd call all this noise. When the economy blew up, everyone and their brother was on the internet consuming the media and worried about their investments. Then again in March when it seemed like we were looking into the abyss people were frantically consuming as much info as they could about the state of things. At this point, we were all more or less tapped out on consuming info about the economy. Couple that with the summer and it's no real surprise that since March the invest trend is down so much.

You have to download the data to see the dates, but look at the date things really start to jump off

20-Sep-08	0	0	0	1.74	0
19-Sep-08	0	0	0	1.68	0
18-Sep-08	0	0	0	1.54	0
17-Sep-08	0	0	0	1.39	0
16-Sep-08	0	0	0	1.26	0
15-Sep-08	0	0	0	1.14	0
14-Sep-08	0	0	0	1	0

9/10/2009 5:48:52 PM

that's the day i turned 30

coincidence?

I THINK NOT!

it marked the end of an era

9/11/2009 1:41:38 AM

God damn, I tried to sell both front month and October puts on ERY and neither of them filled. What I get for being greedy over .05. I did pick up some Oct 11 UNG puts and those are up 15% at the moment.

9/11/2009 12:42:54 PM

I'm up 33% on UNG, greedy or no?

Sold.

[Edited on September 11, 2009 at 1:51 PM. Reason : .]

9/11/2009 1:49:49 PM

VG-vonage may be up to something, up 15 cents today
a buyout potential, i'd put a little money there just in case

[Edited on September 11, 2009 at 2:08 PM. Reason : /]

9/11/2009 2:07:54 PM

VRMLQ is up over 2500% today

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/US-Food-and-Drug-prnews-3297696975.html?x=0&.v=1

Quote :

"MADISON, N.J. and FREMONT, Calif., Sept. 11 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) today cleared the OVA1(TM) Test, the first blood test that, prior to surgery, can help physicians determine if a woman is at risk for a malignant pelvic mass. OVA1 is the first FDA-cleared laboratory test that can indicate the likelihood of ovarian cancer with high sensitivity prior to biopsy or exploratory surgery, even if radiological test results fail to indicate malignancy. The test was developed by Vermillion, Inc. (OTC: VRMLQ.PK - News), a molecular diagnostics company, in cooperation with Quest Diagnostics (NYSE: DGX - News), the world's leading provider of cancer diagnostics. Quest Diagnostics, which is a long-time investor in research and development of the OVA1 technology, has exclusive rights to offer the test to the clinical reference laboratory market in the U.S. for three years."

[Edited on September 11, 2009 at 4:03 PM. Reason : close]

9/11/2009 3:32:20 PM

i bet those 30 employees are having a baller party tonight.

9/11/2009 3:45:52 PM

Why on earth would you be short when we are on the verge of unprecedented once in a lifetime inflation? You absolutely must be leveraged long or in super high beta stocks just to offset the dollar collapse were experiencing

9/11/2009 4:38:59 PM

OK, so I have a Roth IRA full of index funds, a brokerage account with stocks (generally LTBH and for the purpose of retirement savings, but I do keep $10k worth of "play" money in there to make short term trades with, and I don't consider this long term savings...it's money to have fun with).

I also have a significant sum put away in a money market account. This was a good solution a couple of years ago, as it was a secure way to get a 4%+ return, but that's not really the case at the moment. I'm probably going to open a second Scottrade account to keep my trading money in (just to make it easier to keep those two pots of money seperate), and I've thought about buying a bunch of big dividend paying stocks with most of the money that's currently sitting in the MMA.

Any thoughts?

9/11/2009 6:30:32 PM

I did something similar and set up another account with another bank and transferred in a number of bank stocks as well as some dividend paying funds like ETJ, ETV, ETW, TIP as well as 5 mutual funds that I can't recall off the top of my head. At the time I told the broker that I didn't plan on touching those for at least 4 or 5 years if not longer and to go with B shares on all of the mutual funds (I think only 2 of them had up front fees).

I had DRIPs set up on all of those so the dividends will be reinvested and they'll grow with time and so far they're all doing well. Since inception last December the account is up about 27% and (as of today) is within a few hundred dollars of topping the amount that I was hoping to break by the end of the year.

9/11/2009 7:28:48 PM

Quote :

"Why on earth would you be short when we are on the verge of unprecedented once in a lifetime inflation? You absolutely must be leveraged long or in super high beta stocks just to offset the dollar collapse were experiencing"

Inflation simply won't happen in the face of credit destruction and banks unwillingness to lend. There is a chance that our Fed will be too late to remove liquidity facilities and we'll see a small bout of nasty inflation, but so long as credit continues to contract, all this gold bug and inflation talk is retardo. Look for the dollar to bottom in the next couple months.

9/11/2009 7:39:07 PM

Another meh day.

I sold Oct 15 calls on all of my GE a few weeks back when it was in the mid-13s. Of course its hovering at 15 now.

Anyone else think that gold might be overhyped right now?

9/14/2009 2:04:33 PM

I sold Oct 10 puts on SRS back when it was at like 14 for a mere 30c. So, it's a race between now and expiration day as I think the market is still in retardo mode and someone is plowing sidelined cash into it at every pullback (just like today). Apparently, talk of protectionist measures really isn't bad for the economy, it just gives a ready place to hop in on a 1% discount. Rofl.

9/14/2009 2:49:02 PM

Within 200 bucks of being back to even after that massive debacle that was last year haha

9/14/2009 4:27:09 PM

This is aggravating. I've tried to pick up a few leveraged ETFs over the past week or so and every time the order goes to execute I get a message saying that I have to sign a form with Fidelity to trade that specific fund.

They must have put in some new procedures after some idiots complained about losing their shirts with FAS or something.

9/14/2009 4:53:50 PM

^yeah, leveraged ETF's have been a wealth destruction machine this and last year
the warning label is a good idea in my opinon

9/14/2009 5:22:19 PM

Yeah, I'm familiar with all of that. I took a pretty good hit with them before I figured out a good option strategy to play the volatility with the financial funds.

It's just alarming because its so indicative of individual investors not looking before they leap. Also I don't like paperwork.

9/14/2009 5:26:25 PM

Quote :

"This is aggravating. I've tried to pick up a few leveraged ETFs over the past week or so and every time the order goes to execute I get a message saying that I have to sign a form with Fidelity to trade that specific fund. They must have put in some new procedures after some idiots complained about losing their shirts with FAS or something."

I follow Tim Knight on his blog Slope of Hope. He got a letter from his 401k manager saying they were stopping all transaction on inverse and leveraged ETFs. It took him hours and various forms to sign just to SELL his positions he had.

Yesterday, UBS had a recall on IYR for everyone who had borrowed to short. On options expiration week...it's like, they are trying to play games with the stock prices or something, I'm shocked. I've never seen behavior like this out of Wall Street.

So far, I've seen SRS touch 10.04 and saw my 95% gains I had last week in the Sept 10s go to 0% and now it's back at 30%. Gonna be a wild rest of the week.

9/15/2009 10:10:24 AM

Lawyers are lining up left and right to sue the shit out of all the brokerage firms for allowing investors to hold these leveraged ETF's in retirement accounts. They are trying to protect their nutsacs

9/15/2009 8:44:04 PM

Man, SRS beasting me again. I've managed to turn a 70% up trade into a 110% down trade thanks to pure unadulterated greed and abject stupidity over that last 5-10c. That takes real talent. It's a damn good thing I'll be employed in less than a month and will ignore the stockgambling market for awhile.

9/16/2009 11:35:24 AM

Inflation won't happen? I disagree for obvious reasons. Gold keeps going higher, much higher.

Inflation is already beginning to build and we are 12 months away from raising interest rates

9/16/2009 11:38:56 AM

If only I said inflation won't happen .

Read it again

Quote :

"Inflation simply won't happen in the face of credit destruction and banks unwillingness to lend. "

If you do enough reading, you'll see that just about everyone that has an opinion on the matter is in agreement that the Fed is nearly powerless in the short term to defeat deflation. We have avoided a liquidity trap thanks to monumental QE that we've done, but the QE in total value is still small to the credit destruction. Coupled with no willingness to lend and the mechanism, backed by mathematics, simply isn't there to lead to inflation. If you want, I can probably produce 5-10 links to all sorts of sources from bloggers to economists who cover both ends of the political spectrum are in general agreement on this topic.

In the long term and if the debt is defaulted on and we begin returning to organic growth, if the Fed doesn't remove the liquidity measures in a timely fashion then the inflation absolutely could get nasty. This won't happen in the next 12 months. The gold prices you are seeing is the tail end of a commodity driven pump.

For decades, private citizens of China couldn't have gold and (if I'm not mistaken) other precious metals in their possession. Recently, the govt did a 180 on this and is encouraging it's citizens to hoard gold and other precious metals.

Btw, a call of raising of rates in a 12 month timeframe that are sitting at 0% isn't exactly going out on a limb there pal.

9/16/2009 11:56:15 AM

Well, GE can blow me.

9/16/2009 1:14:06 PM

You think that is bad, I bought 200 shares position in CAL, Continental fucking Airlines, on July 1 at 9.22 and immediately sold Sept 9s for 1.20 on them. This was supposed to be a basic income generator on one of the better airline stocks out there. But it's an airline stock, how do they make money in a crappy economy with oil trading at 70? It's only trading up about 80% since I bought into it. I made a 200 on the calls and missed out on the rest of the $1300 move in that stock.

You have to be impressed with the Fed and the powers that be who have

1) Orchestrated such a powerful and unrelenting move up, nearly as fast and strong as the fall (something that just doesn't happen)
2) Will probably keep the next fall from happening as quickly as the first through some unprecedented mechanisms.

It's pretty scary to think of how much control they have over the market when it isn't behaving normally. Look at how low the volume is

http://slopeofhope.com/2009/09/dr-strangebear.html

No sellers, anywhere? I've read in some other places that the HFT algorithms are self enforcing in a way that it takes an insanely low amount of money to push the market higher.

9/16/2009 1:38:27 PM

^ do you think this is increasing the chances of a 1987 event?

9/16/2009 8:10:47 PM

No one knows. There are a million theories out there. It's like the Depression, it's like 87 (btw, I assume you're talking about this http://www.zerohedge.com/article/problem-competing-views%E2%80%A6 )

Ritholtz said we might only be in the 6th or 7th inning of this rally. Tim Knight has been saying for months that 1088/1100 were targets for this rally.

I'm not sure if I have been claiming it in here or on the trading site I use but I think we're going to need some sort of catalyst to trigger a selloff event. That could come in the form of

A) Government making an unexpected change of course (ie raise rates)
B) An unexpected large bank failure or failure of a sovereign
C) Really nasty earnings misses

I put the odds of A really low as they realize deflation is still a real concern and won't touch rates for awhile. B is certainly a possibility as central bankers in other nations aren't as clever or have the resources that we do to keep the charade up for as long as we can. As for C, I think economists are clever as hell and purposefully set the bar low as hell last quarter, and will do so for another quarter, maybe two.

During this time we'll see the same teeny corrections we saw in August and a couple weeks ago and earnings beating the still low expectations. At some point, starting probably with Q1 estimates, we'll start getting misses as the already baked in GDP and earnings expectations for next year start to look like pipe dreams as economist get ahead of themselves again. Above all, the jobs have to start coming back so that consumers can spend as they are 70% of our economy.

Looking at this chart:

I think it's perfectly plausible to think this recession will trace a line somewhere below the tech crash line for the next year or two once reality sets in. It's absolutely ludicrous to think the current economy is better off now barely 6 months after the lows than the tech crash recovery 2.5 years later.


This is my amateur opinion.

9/16/2009 9:34:29 PM

We have passed the 38.2% fibonacci retracement and are headed to 1120 if you look at 2007 high to 2009 low

but if you look at 99 high to 2002 low we are hitting 38.2 retracement right at 1068
so this is a key place but if it breaks through we got more rally to see

9/16/2009 11:38:59 PM

Oh, so markets move only to fibonacci levels now?

Btw, how is that 100k free money working out for you? Did you load up on more DRV with it?

[Edited on September 16, 2009 at 11:40 PM. Reason : .]

9/16/2009 11:39:53 PM

^^^ while I agree that A,B, or C could trigger an event, I also wonder if we couldn't just be hit by it through a sort of popping of the bubble.

If we agree that the stock market is over-valued, both by over-enthusiastic expectations and also market manipulation, than basically what we are saying is that there is a stock bubble, and I don't know that there has to be a major catalyst for that to burst. I could see a situation of diminishing returns where we sort of reach a tipping point.

If we start to get a substantial move downward, will there be much in the way of support? Are legitimate actors waiting for a pullback to get into the market? I am not sure that there are.

I have a vision of the 6 income earner who has been out of work, but has been recording substantial gains in the last 6 months in equities. If we get a hit to equity confidence, how much incentive will there be for that person to begin to liquidate (and is this even a common circumstance)...

9/17/2009 12:24:45 AM

Quote :

"That could come in the form of A) Government making an unexpected change of course (ie raise rates) B) An unexpected large bank failure or failure of a sovereign C) Really nasty earnings misses"

I see another possibility in the FASB actually returning us to the world of real-life accounting and forcing off-balance sheet assets back onto the balance sheet of the mother company. This starts Jan 2010 and the fdic is seeking comments now as to how to handle the matter of increase capital requirements due to this change.

The more I think about it the less chance I think this would have some big eureka moment for the market but perhaps more of a long slow decline if we haven't started that before Jan.

9/17/2009 9:08:36 AM

Quote :

"If we agree that the stock market is over-valued, both by over-enthusiastic expectations and also market manipulation, than basically what we are saying is that there is a stock bubble, and I don't know that there has to be a major catalyst for that to burst. I could see a situation of diminishing returns where we sort of reach a tipping point."

The thing is, the FED has a larger balance sheet than anyone else in the game, meaning they'll keep manipulating as long as they think it will take. And all we have to do is look at Japan for how well that worked, along the same lines

Quote :

"I see another possibility in the FASB actually returning us to the world of real-life accounting and forcing off-balance sheet assets back onto the balance sheet of the mother company. This starts Jan 2010 and the fdic is seeking comments now as to how to handle the matter of increase capital requirements due to this change."

These guys aren't stupid. Even if congress forces some sort of audit, the banks and the Fed will have Obamas balls in a vice over the economy and they'll figure out some way to delay it or obfuscate the results. This is about time and the hope that they can take the pressure off the banks long enough that the market will return to some sort of normalcy and they can then begin quietly shrinking their balance sheet by marking losses slowly over time. There is no way in hell they bring mark to market rules back into vogue in any meaningful way as it will certainly wipe out big banks instantly.

Quote :

"If we start to get a substantial move downward, will there be much in the way of support? Are legitimate actors waiting for a pullback to get into the market? I am not sure that there are."

We already had 2 attempts at a correction in the past month and it was immediately met with a bid after a couple of days. Fund managers with performance anxiety saw both of them as great opportunities to get in and I think this might continue to happen until we get real evidence (earnings misses, definite downticks in whatever nascent recoveries we thought we were seeing) that we have a long way to go before we get out of the woods.

Quote :

"The more I think about it the less chance I think this would have some big eureka moment for the market but perhaps more of a long slow decline if we haven't started that before Jan."

This is the camp I'm in. The easy money was made up and down and the Fed is now wise to the fragility of the system. I've been making reasonable small gains in the past week (outside of SRS) by just switching my brain off and going with the flow, both up and down.

9/17/2009 9:40:18 AM

Quote :

"There is no way in hell they bring mark to market rules back into vogue in any meaningful way as it will certainly wipe out big banks instantly"

Oh no doubt. This wasn't about bringing back m2m however. It's about preventing companies from hiding assets of balance sheet. I don't know the details of those assets or whatever reason financial companies are lobbying so hard against this because even if they did, they could just mark them to whatever fantasy value they liked anyways.

9/17/2009 11:20:26 AM

True, good point. In fact, it seems like they are doing these sorts of games already

http://www.google.com/reader/view/?tab=my#stream/feed%2Fhttp%3A%2F%2Fmarket-ticker.denninger.net%2Ffeeds%2Findex.rss2

And I'm drawing a blank now, but there is a UK bank that announced in the past couple of days that they are selling their toxic assets to a hedge fund managed by former employees presumably so they can book the conforming and cash flow part of the portfolio without having to mark the value of the assets which would no doubt hamper their capital ratios.

I love how we allowed banks to use models that were fantasy and there hasn't been anyone insisting on coming up with a new model or doing the no doubt tedious work to figure out just how much the properties are worth. Some of the prices homes in the worst bubble areas sold for won't return to those values for a generation.

9/17/2009 12:19:49 PM

that blog reads like a hooksaw thread man. quote bold link...quote bold link

9/17/2009 12:31:20 PM

That guy reads like hooksaw. Very blustery and outraged. He makes great points, supported by evidence, and even does quite a bit of his own analysis (unlike hooksaw, actually). But he's been calling for a market dislocation and blow up for over a year now. It seems like nearly one post a day (at least per week) he is calling for arrests, investigations, and the stopping of whatever it is we are doing or else there is going to be a revolt when the economy melts down.

This is about the only post you need to read to get a good idea of what he is about

http://market-ticker.denninger.net/archives/1439-WARNING-Deflationary-Collapse-Dead-Ahead.html

Quote :

"The fact of the matter is that you have been lied to for the last decade about our economic state, and if we do not divert from the road we are on our economy, our monetary system and our government WILL COLLAPSE. Not "might collapse." Not "might get bad." WILL COLLAPSE. It is a mathematical certainty, and here is the proof."

The good thing about following someone continuously is you get a good idea of what they are about. So I've learned to ignore all this stuff and just look at whatever new nugget of info he posted. From the first link, I get the picture that Wells Fargo is playing fun games with their loans, and thats all I need from that link, not another sermon.

I'm actually very eager to see how this whole crisis shakes out and seeing what he has to say when that Black Swan event never comes.

[Edited on September 17, 2009 at 12:43 PM. Reason : .]

9/17/2009 12:41:10 PM

Btw, I mentioned Chinese stockpiling on the last page

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=a1B_ZBQfii8Q

This is what little bit of 'inflation' (not real inflation but temporary price inflation) we are seeing in the PPI numbers. Chinas stimulus is large compared to GDP (much much larger than our own) and a lot of this money has gone right into the Chinese stock market and commodities, of which our own Wall Streeters have hopped on (is oil demand really double what it was just 6 months ago?) This will be the next bubble to pop.

9/17/2009 12:51:34 PM

Inflation simply can't happen

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/albert-edwards-global-credit-crunch-not-receding-it-intensifying


This administration is going to feel real stupid looking back at their plan to try and save the banks rather than let the creative destruction happen. Had they done that, the short term pain would have been immense, but we'd be able to get back to real growth relatively quickly. Instead, 3.5 years now when the next election is due, the economy is still going to be in the shitter and people are going to vote like they did last election...for change.

9/17/2009 3:31:07 PM

It's really hard to understand how this is legal, for a company to report an upgraded or positive recommendation while having a material stake or position in what they are recommending.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/goldman-issues-favorable-report-within-20-minutes-palms-earnings-release-and-goldmans-follow

And this little nugget is simply mind blowing

Quote :

"We think the significant QoQ sales decline expected in F2Q is due to the timing of the Pixi launch (which we now expect in November vs. October previously), and declining Palm Pre and Treo Pro sales as those product cycles mature. However, Palm's full year guidance implies a very significant ramp in the February and May quarters, likely driven by the ramp of Pixi at Sprint, Palm Pre at Verizon, and potentially other carriers."

Huh, in paragraph one, the Palm Pre has declining sales which will impact fiscal second quarter growth but then in the next paragraph there will be a ramp in February and May driven by the Pre?

Huh?

Quote :

"Splitting the 5% of equity raised, should provide Goldman with a nice $5 million fee. "

This is part of why innovation in real products in this country is dwindling and it is being poured into the non value add financial innovation world. Goldman gets $5 million for probably a few dozen phone calls to large clients and preparing some paperwork for the additional stock offering. Palm is happy to pay, not the fee for the offering, but for the favorable analysis right about the time they want to do the offering. Somewhere along the way, a few people were incentivized into creating this bullshit. You do that a few ten thousand times and we get nice bubbles that pop.

9/17/2009 9:19:59 PM

i dont even know if this kinda shit goes here but...

i got some IRA with t rowe price and i've put 450 into it so far and its worth 525 right now

Quote :

"Beginning Value (as of 01/15/2009) $50.00 Additions $400.00 Deductions $10.00 Income $3.75 Market Fluctuation $82.21"

[Edited on September 18, 2009 at 4:04 AM. Reason : .]

9/18/2009 4:04:09 AM

I'll be starting with my trading company next week, i guess its still an illusion and none of this is real
and none of the $$$$ i'll be making will be real
i guess if its not real then yall do not need the info on how to do this imaginary trading then....


oh well, i wish i was still working in a cubicle, making $25 dollar bucks an hour, hahahah

9/22/2009 2:49:15 PM

I think it's fairly obvious you troll the entire site in all the sections. You're doing the same here. Because lets be honest, you suck at stock picking. Look at your two recent examples

Quote :

"i've got DRV - real estate short overnight i gotta say im a bit nervous as to the job report tomorrow, long term im sure this stock is solid though 9/3/2009 4:47:07 PM "

You got that one somewhere in the 30-31 range. It's only trading at 17 now.

Quote :

"VG-vonage may be up to something, up 15 cents today a buyout potential, i'd put a little money there just in case 9/11/2009 2:07:54 PM "

The S&P has beaten vonage by 3x since this call.

You also said

Quote :

"i'm not telling anyone until i have secured my spot, but it was recommended by solid traders"

And you have your spot and yet you aren't saying anything.

Look, go run along and keep up the paper trading and pretend you know wtf you're doing. It's painfully obvious you don't, but for your sake, at least it isn't real money you are losing.

9/22/2009 3:04:10 PM

^so if i say im buying DRV a week ago does that mean i'm holding it for a week?
C'mon may, im a trader, i can buy a sell securities 10 to 20 times in a single day

VG was a good bet, i've make over $800 on it in two weeks off of only $2000.00 invested
I dont put all my money in one stock

so you are wrong so far

9/22/2009 3:07:22 PM

Why WOULDN'T you hold it, you said this after all

Quote :

"long term im sure this stock is solid though"

How about you produce one shred of evidence...for ANYTHING.

I see you still skipped on the opportunity to reveal to use this trading house that gives you 100k for a 5k investment.

Btw, just how large is your account again?

[Edited on September 22, 2009 at 3:16 PM. Reason : .]

9/22/2009 3:15:10 PM