OK, well my point was that pulling out now is absolutely the wrong decision.

However, I do agree with your other point. Just because we have a draft would not lessen the wars we are involved in. I don't even think the government would attempt to reinstate a draft though because as it has been said repeatedly, it is political suicide and unnecessary right now.

[Edited on June 28, 2004 at 1:41 PM. Reason : .]

6/28/2004 1:41:08 PM

Out of curiosity, was what the article said about Canada signing some agreement with the US about the border true?

6/28/2004 1:46:29 PM

Quote :

"leaving Iraq completely would not be helpful to the situation. Security is necessary there til they get off their feet."

US soldiers aren't providing security, they're providing targets. The continued presence of foreign conquerers is just providing fuel for the fire and escalating the conflict. There is nothing productive they can now accomplish by being there.

6/28/2004 1:49:19 PM

^ I am sorry, but there is very little iraqi military and insufficient policing force. If we leave there will be completely insufficient security forces. If I am wrong please explain how they will police things?

6/28/2004 2:03:58 PM

Quote :

"Out of curiosity, was what the article said about Canada signing some agreement with the US about the border true? "

yeah, far as i can tell, you can't escape to anywhere in north america when it comes to the draft. mexico, us, and canada all agreed that the us could pursue draft dodgers.

6/28/2004 2:50:03 PM

A draft would end Republican control of the government if the left finally grew a pair of balls.

Nobody will implement this unless there is no other feasible way of maintaining military security.

6/28/2004 3:53:26 PM

I almost hate to do to this but, what do you military men on here make of this: http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/06/29/iraq.reserves.ap/index.html

6/29/2004 1:51:01 PM

Looks like its for supoprt roles.

6/29/2004 2:00:17 PM

this is the same article Shrike posted....more evidence the military is
severely strained and is now implementing de facto drafts by forcing people to serve
in the military longer than they agreed to:

Quote :

"Army Plans Involuntary Call-Up of Thousands By Will Dunham WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Army is planning an involuntary mobilization of thousands of reserve troops to maintain adequate force levels in Iraq and Afghanistan, defense officials said on Monday. The move -- involving the seldom-tapped Individual Ready Reserve -- represents the latest evidence of the strain being placed on the U.S. military, particularly the Army, by operations in those two countries. http://news.myway.com/top/article/id/264835|top|06-28-2004::23:24|reuters.html"

[Edited on June 29, 2004 at 6:46 PM. Reason : ..]

6/29/2004 6:44:15 PM

Quote :

"more evidence the military is severely strained and is now implementing de facto drafts by forcing people to serve in the military longer than they agreed to"

that is incorrect. if they had read the contract when they joined the military, they would have seen that they are obligated to be subject to a mandatory call-up for several years after their official military service committment has been fulfilled.

not a de facto draft. more like, "contract that both parties agreed to being implemented"

6/29/2004 6:50:43 PM

i understand your reluctance to answer my challenge

6/30/2004 4:51:50 PM

^ Hard for others to argue with a logical answer. I agree with your assessment on the situation.

[Edited on June 30, 2004 at 4:53 PM. Reason : ,.]

6/30/2004 4:52:47 PM

Quote :

" The Army is preparing to notify about 5,600 retired and discharged soldiers who are not members of the National Guard or Reserve that they will be involuntarily recalled to active duty for possible service in Iraq or Afghanistan, Army officials said Tuesday. "

Whoever wrote this needs to check their sources. You have not retired nor been discharged if you are a member of the IRR (Individual Ready Reserve). You do not receive your discharge until that eight years has pasted since you signed your FIRST contract. Never known anyone able to retire after less than eight years of military pay.

More scare tactics from certain parties beating the drum for a draft.

7/2/2004 2:32:44 AM

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE

reinstate the draft

it would:
make people pay attention
make people vote
make the military a better place

7/31/2004 1:00:31 AM

Quote :

"make the military a better place"

What...the...fuck? Please what is your logic behind this? Enlisted and Commisioned Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen do not want to serve with draftees and people who don't want to be there.

7/31/2004 1:05:43 AM

i will never fight for democrats or republicans

7/31/2004 1:39:56 AM

Wonderful....and that contributes how? People don't join the military and take an oath to protect the Democrats or fight to the death for the Republicans. Join the military to fight for the country and defend it.

7/31/2004 1:47:12 AM

it would make the military better because we are stretched thin right now in terms of job-manning, because God-forbid someone should raise your taxes to make life in the military more attractive

7/31/2004 2:47:41 AM

Quote :

"Enlisted and Commisioned Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen "

ummm, ahem!

forgetting something?

7/31/2004 3:38:16 AM

Quote :

"reinstate the draft it would: make people pay attention make people vote make the military a better place"

That's dumb. Maybe we should start randomely killing people on the streets too, I mean, after all, it'll make them appreciate life more.

Dumbass.

Well, at least it will hasten the day of revolution if they're dumb enough to reinstate the draft. That's the only silver lining I can see.

7/31/2004 7:44:52 AM

Quote :

""Enlisted and Commisioned Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen " ummm, ahem! forgetting something?"

Oh yeah! Warrant Officers!

7/31/2004 10:53:40 AM

ahhh, yeah! can't forget them! warrant officers are definitely cool.

hahahahahaha

7/31/2004 11:22:31 AM

I'm not forgetting anyone Duke. Marines never draft.. to do so would ruin the image of what the Marines are.

But I'll rephrase

None of the current Airmen, Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, or Coastguardsmen, enlisted or commisioned, want to serve with people who were drafted.

[Edited on July 31, 2004 at 12:51 PM. Reason : a]

7/31/2004 12:41:34 PM

if drafted, i'd go

7/31/2004 1:06:55 PM

Unfourently your response isn't typical. You get people like Excoriator who say shit like

Quote :

"If I'm drafted and you're in the US military, it may be wise to kill me straightaway when the gunfire starts because i'm gonna do everything I can to sabatoge my captors - it is my right and obligation to do so as a free man."

But thankfully, thats treason, and treason is a captial crime punishable by death. But still, I'd rather not have anyone in the field who would endanger the lives of current servicemen and myself once I commision.

7/31/2004 1:18:21 PM

Quote :

"But thankfully, thats treason, and treason is a captial crime punishable by death."

I'd rather die fighting my real oppressors right here at home or even be executed by them, instead of dying as their slave, doing their bidding in some foreign land, killing people who have never done shit to me. Live free or die are words to live by, not some idle musing.

7/31/2004 3:25:56 PM

Freedom isn't free.

Besides Excoriator said he would sabatoge US equipment if ever drafted...do you condone such actions? So if some soldier during WW2 decided to take out Eishenhower....thats be perfectly ok with you?

If you are drafted, it is your duty to do everything you can for the US military, maybe a non-combantant position, but still you still go.

This is why an any current military serviceman would never want to serve with a draftee

Quote :

"I'd rather die fighting my real oppressors"

thats funny btw.

[Edited on July 31, 2004 at 4:01 PM. Reason : s]

7/31/2004 3:51:49 PM

Quote :

"Freedom isn't free"

Yes it is. I want you to explain how our freedom is under attack from a country that requires military intervention and a draft. Because i keep hearing this from the Right as an excuse to make liberals and anti-war people look soft on terrorism and anti-american.

Our freedoms were fought for and died for by some of this nation's greatest men and women. Our founding fathers, the civil warriors, and WWII Vets. All of which are in my opinion being trampled over for this war over Iraq and the War on Terror.

7/31/2004 5:05:21 PM

The cost of freedom for any current citizen is obeying the laws of this country. If the draft is passed, then it is law. If you get drafted it is your obligation as a citizen to serve this country. I for one, pray we never draft. Protest the draft, vote against the draft, vote against people who support the draft....its all up to you. However, if you get drafted..serve. In the meantime, comments like "I'd rather take arms against the gov't then be drafted" do jack shit except make people angry.

Am I against the draft? Hell yes, I'd rather not serve with a draftee

Do I think if the draft is instated people need to serve? Yes. You don't have to fight, there are thousands of non-combat positions available, you won't be dying for your country but you still will be serving.

People can protest all they want, but they still must obey the rules of this country. Our system was made this way so people can change it if they don't like it. So get off your lazy asses and go vote for whatever president, congressman, senator, etc they want to.

But the point still stands, if there is a draft, and you get drafted, you serve. No question.

7/31/2004 5:26:29 PM

I disagree. Congress can raise an army, supply it, and disband it. it cannot however force service by its people into it. thats the whole pretense against monarcy and kingdoms of old which forcefully put military duty on to their people b/c they did not have their support to fight wars.

The price of freedom is to obey the laws of the land. Yes i agree. However no one says the laws of this land are infallible and require strict obedience. Thats why we live here.

7/31/2004 5:44:42 PM

Of course laws can be flawed. This is why we have the system we have, checks and balances, representives who we can elect, the ability to impeach and recall. However, until a law is considered wrong, it must be followed.

7/31/2004 5:49:55 PM

STFU^^

7/31/2004 6:21:24 PM

Conscription is wrong, it is evil, it is immoral, and no person is under any obligation or duty to subject themselves to it or to any other unjust law.

For starters conscription is unconstitutional. The 13th Amendment reads,

Quote :

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

Please note that "punishment for crime" is the only exception made. There is no military necessity clause. Sure, the Constitution says that Congress can raise an army, or call forth the milita, but it doesn't explicitly say that they can impress people into involuntary military service. It does, however, explicitly prohibit involuntary servitude. So if the implied power of the government to enslave its subjects was ever constitutional, that ended with their failure to include conscription provisions in the 13th amendment.

The constitution purports to be "the supreme law of the land." Under the constitution, the draft is a mere userpation, and a criminal aggression, undertaken solely on the personal authority of the members of Congress, and with no color of law or justice. Thus, no one can be obligated to follow the draft, just as no one can be obligated to submit to warrentless searches or surrender their right to keep and bear arms. It is the draft itself which is criminal under "the supreme law of the land", not resistence to it.

In 1804, Justice Marshal wrote in Marbury vs. Madison

Quote :

"Certainly all those who have framed written constitutions contemplate them as forming the fundamental and paramount law of the nation, and consequently the theory of every such government must be, that an act of the legislature, repugnant to the constitution, is void."

Also, the Constitution purports to be a contract between "we the people" and our government, to which we delegate certain authority. But what manner of contract is it, that binds us to terms explicitly forbidden under by it? Or that, having been willfully, systematically and repeatedly violated by one party, is still binding on the other?

But the question of constitutitonality is ultimately a moot one. The only question that matters is the question of justice. Congress could go through all the proper motions, get a constitutional amendment "granting" them absolute power to order summery executions, and then proceed to march all the jews into giant ovens. The fact that they followed proper procedure would not make that action lawful or legal, even if the "supreme law of the land" were to say that it did. That would be an act of naked criminal agression no matter what any mere slip of paper said to the contrary. So it is with the enslavment and attempted murder of millions of Americans, ie. the draft.

bbehe You say that the laws of the land and their makers are under "our" control, and that we can change them at any time. Even if it's true, this matters not. The system is set up to respond to the will of the mob, not to the immutable laws of nature. Truth and justice are not a popularity contest. If the entire country supported the draft, except for me, then they would be no more justified in making me their slave than I would be in making them mine.

I am not a sniveling quisling, bowed low to lick the boots of my masters. Nor am I a mindless automaton, marching uncritically to the beat of their drums. I am me. I live my own life, I make my own judgements, I fight my own battles, and I resent the fact that the majority of my fellows labor under the impression that they own me.

Unlike you, I am willing to draw a line in the sand and tell the world "beyond this line, you do not tread."

The draft is just one of my lines.

[Edited on August 1, 2004 at 11:49 AM. Reason : ']

8/1/2004 11:39:22 AM

Quote :

"No Matter Who Wins in November, Draft Will Return Regardless of the outcome of next November’s presidential election, the federal government will initiate a military draft in 2005, unless there is a dramatic slackening of the need for U.S. troops for the ongoing war in Iraq and for “peacekeeping” duties around the world. Last June, the Senate overwhelmingly passed a bill to increase the size of the Army by 20,000 persons, and a month earlier the House voted to add 30,000 soldiers and 9,000 Marines by 2007. If current trends continue, several military experts have told American Free Press, voluntary enlistments will not even dent the number of troops America will need for its global over-commitments. http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/draft_riots_feared.html"

[Edited on August 9, 2004 at 6:25 PM. Reason : //]

8/9/2004 6:23:46 PM

btw, is it really a draft if its mandatory for everyone?

8/9/2004 6:32:17 PM

8/9/2004 8:07:07 PM

if this is true then why can you not find this info from major sources. i am not saying that major players such as NYT or Washingtonpost are any more reliable then the website this is coming from. i am just saying that if it were true wouldnt other places be picking up on it? or is this just a slanted "news organization" writing about things that they want to push with the spin on them that they wany you to see???

8/10/2004 1:50:24 PM

8/10/2004 2:53:17 PM

I personally welcome the draft.

If it's yourself and your children who are at risk not just volunteers, you're bound to think harder before supporting a war.

I for one am looking forward to it

A break from all this school nonsense.

8/10/2004 4:04:06 PM

You'd probably savor life a lot more if snipers were to randomly shoot civilians as they go about their daily lives, does that mean its a good idea?

My point is this, almost everything has pros. However, unless you look as the pros and the cons, you're just a dumbass.

Slavery and mass murder have a lot of cons.

8/10/2004 4:28:25 PM

Condescension will get you everywhere.

Did it occur to you that maybe someone could weigh the pros and cons and still (gasp) disagree with you?

The value placed on a human life in our culture is astounding.

8/10/2004 4:33:20 PM

The draft is slavery
http://www.thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=235983&page=1

8/18/2004 3:43:04 AM

A caller on the Alex Jones show on 8/23/04 stated that he was told by an officer in the National
Guard that the draft boards have been set up in every county in the U.S. and that it is a done
deal that the draft will return sometime after the 2004 election, no matter whether Bush or Kerry
wins. Alex stated that people in the know he has talked to would confirm this.


[Edited on August 23, 2004 at 2:51 PM. Reason : ==]

8/23/2004 2:35:37 PM

my cousin's friend had a roommate who is in the army, and he said that drafts are dumb.

8/23/2004 2:48:34 PM

hey listen, do i have to goto the army if i have a metal rod in my leg?? i really dont give a shit about all this draft crap, but a friend mentioned it.

8/23/2004 3:40:10 PM

If they have a draft will I get free guns that I get to keep after it's over?

8/23/2004 3:43:22 PM

Quote :

"If it's yourself and your children who are at risk not just volunteers, you're bound to think harder before supporting a war. "

horrible and flawed logic. The way this works is that the rich and powerful start wars, and the poor and less powerful fight them. (this, of course, is not 100%, but is mainly true)

that being said, the rich and powerful can always find ways out of a draft or any other military obligations (see many current politicians - clinton, bush jr.)

therefore, regardless of whether the people support a war, they will still be sent to fight it, and a draft means that even those who don't want to fight will be forced to do so

8/23/2004 4:06:56 PM

Quote :

"A caller on the Alex Jones show on 8/23/04 stated that he was told by an officer in the National Guard that the draft boards have been set up in every county in the U.S. and that it is a done deal that the draft will return sometime after the 2004 election, no matter whether Bush or Kerry wins. Alex stated that people in the know he has talked to would confirm this. "

that's bullshit. every county in the US is a lot of fucking counties and this shit would have hit the national news like a comet if it had actually happened

i mean, besides the newsworthiness of the sheer monstrosity of getting such a machine moving once again, consider the highly democratic counties and whether or not they'd be able to keep such a thing a secret knowing that the news would help Kerry immensely.

there's just too many people that are too scattered to be able to keep a secret that huge

8/23/2004 4:28:05 PM

Is this 4 reel?

8/31/2004 2:00:55 PM

is it just me or wouldnt there be a revolution if they tried to bring back the draft???? i mean think how many 18-26 year old people there are in this country. im not saying that all of them would go revolt or anything but there would be a LOT of people upset not to mention all the older people who would be against it anyways

8/31/2004 9:40:16 PM