the ironic part (i guess it's ironic) is that the same people (myself included) that have been saying all along that these guys were innocent until PROVEN guilty by a court of law, are ready to proverbally string up this girl now, even though she should be assumed innocent until proven guilty by a court of law as well.

4/11/2006 2:54:07 AM

Quote :

"It's just a sad situation all around. If the attorney's correct, then this woman just made it 100 times harder for a woman who's really been sexually assaulted to come forward...essentially placing the burden of proof in rape cases on the victim."

I agree with the first part but...

wtf? that is where it should be.

unless we go ahead and toss out that whole innocent until proven guilty thing.

[Edited on April 11, 2006 at 3:29 AM. Reason : ]

4/11/2006 3:27:38 AM

I dont know much about this case, only what i've heard from people talking about it.

IT's my understanding that no rape occured but that they had to wait for a DNA test to come back to prove it. All because they didnt have a rape kit on hand.

It is my firm believe that i could look at that strippers vagina and determine if she had been raped by 3 men. I wouldnt even need a rape kit.

Not only does a vagina look different after sex period but there are certain patterns of injury to the vaginal area in cases of rape that are different then from rough sex.

I just think they would've stopped this shit before it became a scandal if they would've used their heads about it.

4/11/2006 4:12:15 AM

Quote :

"You obviously don't read the paper that often. Every other month, I'm reading about how poorly black students are doing compared to other students. And they even include bar graphs just in case the disparity isn't clear enough for you."

Don't go touting some BS statement like that. The newspaper isn't your the most reliable/unbiased source of information. Graphs of any sort are wonderfully deceptive because they are so easily manipulated. If you want to have a serious discussion about education gaps, start another thread on it.

Updates:
http://www.wral.com/news/8600601/detail.html

Quote :

"DA Plans To Proceed With Case Despite No DNA Matches RALEIGH, N.C. -- Durham County District Attorney Mike Nifong said he plans to move forward with his case against three members of Duke University's men's lacrosse team despite DNA results that do not match evidence collected from a woman who says the athletes raped her. [...] "No DNA material from any young man tested was present on the body of this complaining woman, not present within her body, not present on the surface of her body and not present on any of her belongings," Smith said in a prepared statement. The alleged victim told Durham police that on the night of March 13, she was gang-raped, beaten and sodomized for 30 minutes. No one has been charged yet in connection with the rape allegations, but Nifong has said previously that charges could come this week, despite what DNA test results reveal. [...] Tough questions, he said, need to be asked, adding that the question of sexual assault was not one of them. Nifong, however, has said he could look at other evidence collected in the police investigation, including the alleged victim's statement to police, as well as an emergency-room nurse's findings that the woman had injuries, signs and symptoms consistent with rape. [...] Knudsen said it might ultimately be up to a grand jury to decide if the district attorney can proceed with the case. Legally, he said, a person could be tried and convicted based upon the uncorroborated testimony of a crime victim. "Most of the time, juries like to have some pretty strong corroborative evidence and they may have a hard time finding any in this case," he said. [...] Duke University spokesman John Burness released the following statement Monday afternoon: "As both President (Richard) Brodhead and I have said repeatedly over the past few weeks, we have to have confidence that the police investigation will ultimately reveal the truth. While the allegations in this case are extremely serious, it is important to remember that no one has been charged and that in our system of law people are presumed innocent until proven guilty." The university has been criticized by the community for its seemingly slow response to the rape allegations. In the past two weeks, however, Brodhead has suspended both the lacrosse team's season and all associated activities. Lacrosse athlete Ryan McFadyen was also suspended after Durham police released a search warrant last week that includes an e-mail, believed to be from McFadyen, that talks about plans for another party and killing and skinning dancers. On the same day that the e-mail surfaced, Duke men's lacrosse coach Mike Pressler resigned his post. Brodhead also formed committees to probe the culture of the lacrosse team and the issue of race relations at Duke. "

4/11/2006 6:33:45 AM

^Yeah, I heard about that on NPR this morning. They interviewed someone from Duke and someone from NCCU. One Duke student said they should drop the case while the other said that maybe the DA had some other evidence or reason to believe the girl was raped, and if there was more evidence to be gathered they should do so. The NCCU student basically said "I don't believe that DNA BS".

Looks like this case is far from over and it has shed any pretense of being about rape. Now it's almost entirely about race relations. Congrats to those that brought race into the equation. I hate to say it but I have the impression that even if the LAX squad are 100% innocent the team, Duke, and any white person that doesn't feel that they are guilty will be labeled racist... or worse yet, there will be riots in the streets after an innocent verdict.

Then again, they could be guilty. I'm just saying that I am surprised that the DNA evidence didn't qualm the "guilty until proven innocent" mentality.

4/11/2006 7:46:04 AM

I heard on the radio that the DA is up for election next month. I wonder what the race make-up of his district is....

4/11/2006 8:01:21 AM

^ lol its durham, but this case does go through, her name gets released to the public doesn't, think some of the lacrosse players will sue?

[Edited on April 11, 2006 at 8:50 AM. Reason : a]

4/11/2006 8:47:04 AM

(long rant)

I seriously hate how everything becomes racial the minute a black person is involved. All we (anybody, not just whites) hear about is how we should all be treated equal and we are all the same, which I agree with, but the minute anything happens it's RACISM!

All these people are protesting and flaming the LAX team before any REAL evidence was obtained. Of course there's the evidence about the bruises on the body, the signs of vaginal 'abuse', the broken fingernails, the crying in the parking lot, and the 911 call. Well, pretty much all of those have been questioned due to inconsistencies.

The defense attornies have pictures that show bruises on the body of the stripper before she claims she was raped. Yes, I agree the time stamps could be wrong but from what I gathered these pictures were taken while she was dancing. Do you really think if she was raped she would still be dancing. AFter all, she ran out of the house and left her money, a shoe, etc.

The signs of 'vaginal abuse' could have easily been from having sex before she went to the party. She's a stripper...any chance she might have gone to another gig before the LAX party where she might have made some extra money on the side doing 'favors'? Or she could have had sex with her boyfriend right before she danced.

The broken fingernails in the bathroom are still questionable. But after there was no DNA found on the fingernails it seems to me that she took them off personally or they fell off. If someone rapes you, let alone 3 people rape you, you are going to be fighting and scratching which would leave DNA underneath the fingernails. Whose to say that she wasn't in the bathroom getting dressed, undressed, ready for the show and her nails broke off on her clothes or her weave.

Both the crying in the parking lot and the 911 calls are already being questioned by the police because of inconsistencies in the story.

I by no means am saying that they are automatically 100% innocent because of the DNA results. But these LAX players should be given the benefit of the doubt now that it's been proven that there was no DNA from any of the players on or in the strippers body. These players should have been given the benefit of the doubt from the beginning based on being innocent until proven guilty!!!

The problem is the moment a black woman made these allegations against a bunch of white guys it immediately became a black/white situation. How can we get away from racism if black people call out racism every chance they get (ex. congresswoman saying she was racially profiled).

If the DNA results came back positive then everybody would want to castrate the players. Even the DA said the DNA results would rule out the innocent and show the guilty parties. Well, now that the DNA results are back and he was wrong he's changing his mind and saying that DNA tests don't prove everything and he has other evidence. If the DNA tests were positive every black person in America would be screaming RAPE..just look at the DNA results. Since the results came back negative they have to come up with other bullshit.

The DA came out from the beginning, along with just about the entire community, accusing these players of rape. They protested and held vigils at the house, they suspended the teams season, caused the coach to resign, suspended players from the university, ruined quite a few peoples lives (this will follow them everywhere forever), and all but convicted them of rape based on one person (stripper) accusations. The fact that she had a criminal history didn't even make a difference. Everyone was jumping at the chance of convicting a bunch of rich white people from Duke.

As far as the national coverage....it sucks. It has definitely brought to attention an underlying problem of racial tension and racial issues in Durham but anyone from NC knew that was a problem anyway. The dumbass people like Nancy Grace are so one-sided that even after the DNA reports came back negative they refused to believe the LAX players could be innocent. At least Larry King had people arguing both sides.

To sum it up -- it really just sucks that this whole thing has turned into a racial issue instead of a rape. If it was black on black or white on white then it wouldn't have been all over the news. Instead it turned into rich, elitist white kids from Duke raping a poor black girl from Durham. The DNA results being negative should relieve a lot of the stress and pressure on the situation but instead it's just causing people to make different excuses. If the results were positive then no matter what other evidence was found they would be guilty just because of the DNA! They still could be found guilty based on other evidence and if they are guilty then everyone involved should suffer the consequences. The problem is they are already being treated as if they were found guilty.

If it ends up that they are found not guilty then the stripper should be held liable for all the money spent on this case. She should be held personally liable for all the horrible attention she has brought to Durham and she should be charged for lying to the police. I hope they sue her ass for everything she has if they are found innocent.

Oh yeah...are all the people that protested and accused the team of rape and racism going to apologize? NO, they are going to make up some stupid excuses of why they got off --> rich, white kids get away with everything...right?

/long rant

[Edited on April 11, 2006 at 9:26 AM. Reason : nobody is going to read my long ass rant anyway]

[Edited on April 11, 2006 at 9:31 AM. Reason : ?>]

4/11/2006 9:25:49 AM

^^^ I heard that on NPR too. Although it sounds like the NCCU students are going to believe that those kids are guilty no matter what.

4/11/2006 9:29:03 AM

i just can't stop thinking of the irony here. duke, a prestigious and mostly white university located in DURHAM, mostly black community.

4/11/2006 9:32:46 AM

Quote :

"^^^ I heard that on NPR too. Although it sounds like the NCCU students are going to believe that those kids are guilty no matter what."

Yep, because it's a black girl (from a predominately (sp) black college) saying she was raped by a bunch of white guys (from a predominately rich, private white college).

4/11/2006 9:32:53 AM

Innocent until proven guilty is just a suggestion in America, been that way for many many years unfortunately.

4/11/2006 9:45:20 AM

Quote :

"Innocent until proven guilty is just a suggestion in America, been that way for many many years unfortunately."

Yep, it seems to be a case by case thing which is sad!

4/11/2006 9:55:33 AM

In any case involving personal attack, being innocent until proven guilty also implies that the victim is lying and thus assuming this girl is lying until then. That doesnt seem right either. Ive seen just as many people assume they were innocent as assumed they were guilty without really just setting and waiting and seeing what the evidence was. Fewer people, at least on this board, just seem to take a "wait and see" position, which is more the idea behind "innocent until proven guilty".

Also, I think anyone who says "this is going to follow them the rest of their lives" and all that is really just being overdramatic. People will remember this shit in the near future, but over the course of the next year or two, people will forget about it. They may remember it if someone brings it up, but it wont be a big issue. It will fade into obscurity. And unless one of the players comes up and says "Oh yeah I was on that LAX team that got accused of raping that girl", then nobody will fucking know who they are or care. It surely wont affect them for the rest of their lives. Its a stupid thing to say.

4/11/2006 10:23:31 AM

^ Your telling me if you were accused of gangrape that received national attention that it wouldn't follow you around and affect you for the rest of your life?

4/11/2006 10:37:55 AM

Coolguy1335 - reporting live from NCCU where a Forum to discuss the events is being held shortly.

4/11/2006 10:48:18 AM

Nancy Grace was really pissing me off last night too. Hell, I don't know what happened in this case, and neither does she, but I at least concede that there's a possibility these guys are innocent. And they certainly shouldn't be judged until they are proven guilty. All that know it all bitch is trying to do is prove how unreliable DNA can be and how they obviously did it b/c she ran out and blah blah. She attacked anyone on her show who didn't support everything she said, even somewhat to Kevin Miller from WPTF, who is a really stand up guy.

4/11/2006 10:52:21 AM

Didn't know Nifong would be here, but he is.

4/11/2006 10:57:52 AM

it's like a reverse OJ trial, instead of using DNA to convict a black man, it's using DNA to prove the innocence of some white men.

IRONY!

4/11/2006 11:00:56 AM

Quote :

"My presence here means that this case is not going away "

--Applause---

- Mike Nifong

4/11/2006 11:04:43 AM

Forum can be watched live on http://www.wral.com/news/8617662/detail.html

...and of course...they are saying if it was a different girl from a different school that wasn't black and the players were not white and not from Duke then they'd be in jail.

SURPRISE! They are pulling out the RACE CARD AGAIN!!!

Why is the focus being put on RACE and not RAPE!!!

The whole forum has been questions about RACE...not rape.

[Edited on April 11, 2006 at 11:29 AM. Reason : ?]

[Edited on April 11, 2006 at 11:44 AM. Reason : !]

4/11/2006 11:27:36 AM

This last dumbass lady tried to say Duke Univ. hospital tainted the evidence because they are affiliated with the university. Come on...a place like Duke Univ. hospital is going to risk their reputation to cover a LAX team?

Give me a break! These people are reaching for answers!

4/11/2006 11:41:28 AM

damn i cant believe that lady just asked why the girl wasnt FLOWN OUT TO A UNC HOSPITAL instead of being seen at Duke where there could be a conflict of interest and the evidence could have been tampered with

4/11/2006 11:41:51 AM

Yep, that's what I was talking about ^^! She showed her true ignorance!

4/11/2006 11:45:06 AM

i kind of understand some of what they were saying, but their attitudes about the situation are not helping at all

[Edited on April 11, 2006 at 11:49 AM. Reason : v]

4/11/2006 11:46:04 AM

duke hospital does suck though

p.s. i am moving my voter registration back to durham so i can not vote for mike nifong, and i even know the nifongs

4/11/2006 11:49:33 AM

Quote :

"duke hospital does suck though"

That's your opinion...and I have no experience with Duke so I have no opinion on it. I do know that they are known for their expertise and one of the best hospitals in the country.

The woman said that she should have been flown to UNC or Wake hospitals instead of Duke because of the affiliation with the university. She then continued to say that the DNA tests and evidence were tainted and tampered with. She even questioned who took the rape kit to the police. She really showed her true ignorance and made an ass of herself.

Nifong even said her information was wrong and she was the type of person that was causing this investigation to receive such negative publicity.

It seemed that every person that went up there said something about the poor black school/students compared to the rich white school/students. That's not the issue...the issue is rape. Whether she is black or white and whether the players were black or white, rape is rape. If the evidence proves she was raped then everyone involved should be held responsible. If the evidence proves she wasn't raped then she needs to be held liable for the waste of time, the bad attention, and dragging the players and the university through the mud. Even if the evidence does show that she wasn't raped it isn't going to matter...in the minds of everyone at that forum the players are guilty anyway. But in my opinion they are seen as guilty because they are white, not because of the evidence!

[Edited on April 11, 2006 at 11:57 AM. Reason : /./.]

4/11/2006 11:54:48 AM

Quote :

"I do know that they are known for their expertise and one of the best hospitals in the country."

thats for like cardiac stuff, fertility clinic, etc...
not the general emergency room

but it doesnt really matter, im just bitter at duke hospital

4/11/2006 12:00:53 PM

i know race SHOULD not be the issue here, but if a black dude was identified as a rapist (they did imply at this forum that 3 had been identified), with this same amount of evidence as in this case (which really is not a lot), he would have at least been arrested. at least that is my opinion. i just can't wait until it actually is proven that she was not raped. i don't think they did it. but if they did, they deserve a harsh punishment.


[Edited on April 11, 2006 at 12:03 PM. Reason : d]

4/11/2006 12:02:53 PM

I don't watch the news, who the hell is Nancy Grace?

4/11/2006 12:05:22 PM

i'm offsetting the Duke Hospital sucks opinion.

i've been in remission from leukemia for 18 years and that is all thanks to the doctors and treatment at duke hospital...

this whole case is a mess though.

4/11/2006 12:05:43 PM

Of course everyone realizes that by this point if the court finds the LAX players innocent there will still be civil unrest and outcries of injustice, racism, maybe riots. It really doesn't matter if they didn't do it at this point.

Way to go on turning this into a race issue.

In a strange reversal of roles a stripper has an entire community on their knees.

[Edited on April 11, 2006 at 12:19 PM. Reason : -]

4/11/2006 12:11:11 PM

Nancy Grace is an over-dramatic, one-side of the story bitch that does a news show on CNN. She likes to emphasize every 3rd syllable.



http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/nancy.grace/

[Edited on April 11, 2006 at 12:13 PM. Reason : ;]

4/11/2006 12:13:15 PM

The sides on this case are so deeply divided that they probably won't let a little thing like the truth get in the way of the proceedings. To me, this case seems to follow the same general track of the Tawana Brawley rape hoax of the 1980's. To me it seems that their might have been a lack of discretion by the Duke team in having the party, but there was no rape. It seems pretty evident that the community and students at NCCU are so resentful of privileged, elite college students that no amount of evidence to the contrary will dissuade them otherwise. They want them to be guilty, regardless if a crime was committed or not.

4/11/2006 12:27:54 PM

Quote :

"students at NCCU are so resentful of privileged, elite college students that no amount of evidence to the contrary will dissuade them otherwise. They want them to be guilty, regardless if a crime was committed or not."

i wouldnt go that far

thats like saying NCSU students do because Duke whips us at basketball

4/11/2006 12:32:52 PM

So she can’t go out tonight again
Her sister’s sick, she’s gotta baby-sit
Yeah, that sounds like a pretty good excuse

Now you didn’t hear any of this from me
But things aren’t always what they seem
Brace yourself, this may come as a shock to you

Girls lie, too
We don’t care how much money you make
What you drive or what you weigh
Size don’t matter anyway
Girls lie, too
Don’t think you’re the only ones
Who bend and break and stretch it some
We learn from you
Girls lie, too

We can’t wait to hear about your round of golf
We love to see deer heads hanging on the wall
And we like Hooter’s for their hotwings too
Other guys never cross our minds
We don’t wonder what it might be like
How could it be any better than it is with you

(Repeat Chorus)

Yeah, girls lie, too
We always forgive and forget
The cards and flowers you never sent
Will never be brought up again
Girls lie, too
Old gray sweatpants turn us on
We like your friends and we love your mom
And that's the truth
Girls lie, too
Yeah that’s the truth
Girls lie, too

4/11/2006 12:38:31 PM

^^
yes, but we're also not across the street in Durham

It sucks to play second fiddle in your own town

but the problem is more evident with the Durham locals than the NCCU students, although the racial and social bias is extremely evident with the statements of both





[Edited on April 11, 2006 at 12:49 PM. Reason : .]

4/11/2006 12:38:58 PM

If it was a bunch of black students who went to Duke I doubt they woulda been arrested. If they were a bunch of black students at NCCU then probably so.

Do any of the players have any criminal records? If they're otherwise upstanding citizens from upstanding families why arrest them? They're paying $Texas to go to Duke and exams are coming up. I doubt they're a flight risk.

On a different note, without DNA evidence, does the DNA really think he can prove the players' guilt "beyond a shadow of a doubt"? Lack of DNA evidence would personall throw some shadows of doubt my way. Being as objective as possible, unless he has some seriously damning evidence he hasn't yet revealed, I'd have a hard time convicting these guys if I was a juror.

Quote :

"The defense lawyer just needs to stand up in court and be like, "But they are hot as fuck.""

Did no-one else catch that???

[Edited on April 11, 2006 at 12:58 PM. Reason : .]

4/11/2006 12:54:51 PM

Quote :

"It seems pretty evident that the community and students at NCCU are so resentful of privileged, elite college students that no amount of evidence to the contrary will dissuade them otherwise. They want them to be guilty, regardless if a crime was committed or not."

4/11/2006 1:30:44 PM

HAHAHA if she went to Wake ER she would still be waiting!!!!

4/11/2006 1:40:34 PM

Quote :

"On a different note, without DNA evidence, does the DNA really think he can prove the players' guilt "beyond a shadow of a doubt"? "

That is not the legal standard. The legal standard is "beyond a reasonable doubt".

Personally, the fact that there is no DNA evidence, makes the doubt pretty reasonable in my mind. Not guilty.

4/11/2006 2:02:40 PM

Heres the search warrant they had issued btw

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0329061duke1.html

4/11/2006 2:02:42 PM

^^ That's what I meant

4/11/2006 2:04:07 PM

Quote :

"Do any of the players have any criminal records?"

I remember hearing one of the players was in DC facing assault charges for beating up some bum with some lacrosse buddies (from other schools) in Georgetown. Not a sexual assault, but a violent crime nonetheless.

These guys are clearly jerks. However, the question is "are they rapists?"

4/11/2006 2:12:33 PM

It should be clear to any thinking person that this woman is a liar.

And anyone who knowingly gives false testimony to convict someone of a crime ought to get the same punishment that person would have gotten if they had been convicted on that testimony.

So if these guys would have gotten 10 years in prison for the rape - the false accuser ought to get 10 years.

4/11/2006 2:39:00 PM

I just figured in our sue-happy world if they are proven innocent they would just sue the stripper.

4/11/2006 2:59:07 PM

^
what could they sue her for...she probably doesn't have much

4/11/2006 5:05:22 PM

Sue her and have her pay by dancing at their party.

4/11/2006 5:09:10 PM

to bankrupt her

4/11/2006 5:18:04 PM

Quote :

"These guys are clearly jerks."

why in the fuck would you think that? because of all the media attention this false accusation has caused.

4/11/2006 5:30:39 PM