-4- for the Communists supporting the desecration amendment... 

6/29/2006 12:30:51 PM

Quote :

"Please explain to me how having limits on campaign contributions some how limits a person's freedom of expression."

Quote :

"But you are expressing yourself when you donate."

Please explain to me how limiting how much of a flag you can burn somehow limits a person's freedom of expression?

Because you are expressing yourself when you burn a square inch of the flag

6/29/2006 12:34:11 PM

this has got to be one of the most ridiculous camparisons ive ever read.

6/29/2006 12:36:02 PM

Quote :

"kinda like how you claimed being able to donate some amount of money to a campaign is expressing yourself even though there are LEGAL limits of how much you can donate"

Ok. Well prove me wrong. Show me how having a limit equates to not being able to express yourself at all.

I mean, even if you could only gave a nickel to President Bush, it would indicate you supported the man right?

6/29/2006 12:36:31 PM

well then whats the problem with being able to burn a single thread of a flag but not being able to burn a whole flag?

i mean, burning the single thread would indicate you were upset at the govt right?

6/29/2006 12:37:48 PM

No it wouldn't. Burning a single thread of a flag could have a completely different symbolic meaning then burning the entire thing.

Listen, you have no point. You don't know what you're talking about. And now, you seem to lack a basic comprehension of how symbolism works. I'm not going to argue in circles and fine points with you while we iron out all the ideosyncrasies of American Law. If you can't make understand how burning Old Glory is different then Campaign finance reform, then you and I have no further discussion on this matter.

/Peace.

6/29/2006 12:41:54 PM

if you dont want the examples you use shot down, dont use those examples

6/29/2006 1:47:36 PM

^^ if you won't let me win, then I'm just gonna leave, cause I'm tired of getting thoroughly owned by you

6/29/2006 10:06:53 PM

I haven't read all 4 pages- but this is stupid... What American thinks it is ok to burn a flag? what catholic thinks it's ok to burn a bible?

Would it be ok if i were to get a statue of martin luther kingm dows it in gasoline, light it on fire and then destroy it with a sledge hammer because i am white and have freedom of speach?

no way- i'd be in jail

(i'm really not racist, just an example)

6/29/2006 10:13:02 PM

that is the dumbest thing i've read all day.

6/29/2006 10:30:38 PM

that is the dumbest thing i've read all day.

6/29/2006 10:39:05 PM

^^ is this a statue you personally own, or one that the city put up in rememberance? I don't think anyone is saying it is ok to steal flags and burn them, or even to burn them on other people's private property. I don't think most people think flag burning is an ok thing either, but it is free speech, and is a non-harmful form of it. If I hate the government, and have a flag that I bought and feel the need to burn it in my driveway (assuming there is no law against controlled fires in my driveway), then who am I harming? If I hate religion, any religion, I see no reason why I couldn't burn the book that the religion covets. Do I think these are smart ways to show my discontent, fuck no, nobody cares what a flag/book burner has to say, but is it free speech and upheld by the constitution? You're god damn right it is.

6/29/2006 10:43:04 PM

this thread is everything that's wrong with stupid

6/29/2006 11:18:59 PM

Quote :

"Would it be ok if i were to get a statue of martin luther kingm dows it in gasoline, light it on fire and then destroy it with a sledge hammer because i am white and have freedom of speach?"

I'm sure there's a law about fires or something, but other than that, fuck yeah, you can buy yourself a statue of Martin Luther King Jr. and do whatever you fucking want with it.

In fact, I'm sure it's already been done.

6/30/2006 4:14:07 PM

my point is that: People don't generally burn flags in the privacy of their own home. people don't just get angry, go in their garage and light one up. Usually they do it as a public demonstration. If i were to get a rally together with a bunch of people and do that shit in public with news cameras watching there would be legal procedings to follow.

I personally feal that if it is ok for someone to burn a flag (god this is a dumb statement).... if it is ok for someone to burn a flag in public then it should be legal for any american to walk up, jack them in the face, and whip their ass to get the point across.

it is silly to argue things that are upheld by the constitution. back in the days when it was made it gave the right to carry arms- any schmoe on the street could cary a gun and if there was conflict shoot someone. is someone desecrated the flag that was treason (of some sort) and would get their asses hanged or beat to shit over it.

6/30/2006 4:30:01 PM

Quote :

"back in the days when it was made it gave the right to carry arms- any schmoe on the street could cary a gun and if there was conflict shoot someone. is someone desecrated the flag that was treason (of some sort) and would get their asses hanged or beat to shit over it."

uh, no

6/30/2006 4:31:41 PM

^^you're full of shit.

you wouldn't be going to court for burning a statue because it's mlk. you might be charged for burning something in public when that's not allowed. but there's not a "you can't burn the image of a civil rights leader" law.

[Edited on June 30, 2006 at 4:32 PM. Reason : ^^]

6/30/2006 4:31:48 PM

yeah- it was a dumb statement

i guess i will leave it at:

Burning flags is fuckin shitty, anyone who lives in the US and does it should be beaten and imprisoned- burning a flag even if it is your own has the same moral standard as vandaliving the lincoln memorial or pissing on the vietnam vets wall. I hate the government stepping on our constitutional toes but this is kosher in my eyes

6/30/2006 5:33:11 PM

Quote :

"Burning flags is fuckin shitty, anyone who lives in the US and does it should be beaten and imprisoned- burning a flag even if it is your own has the same moral standard as vandaliving the lincoln memorial or pissing on the vietnam vets wall."

You're basing that on what the flag symbolizes to you, but the flag can mean a lot of things to a lot of different people...don't forget that.

6/30/2006 6:00:40 PM

your property means something entirely different to me than what it does to you. Therefor I can go do whatever the fuck I want to do to it.

6/30/2006 6:10:18 PM

^ridiculous analogy...I'm not even gonna give you a "nice try" on that one.

6/30/2006 6:33:05 PM

the lunacy of the analogy is fitting for the lunacy of the assertion it references

6/30/2006 6:43:21 PM

No, it's not.

If you the view the flag as symbolizing everything that is great about the US, then yeah, you're gonna think it's "fuckin shitty" to burn it. But if it symbolizes something else to you, something negative perhaps, you're likely not gonna give two shits if someone torches it. That's all I said, and there's nothing to argue with in that.

Get it?

6/30/2006 7:14:48 PM

burn, bitches!

6/30/2006 7:24:23 PM

sure there is- If you don't like america then get the fuck out! Don't stay here and burn flags. shit

6/30/2006 7:24:37 PM

^I hate that "argument" because it doesn't make sense in any perspective.

We have the right to assemble. You're suggesting that, if someone doesn't like America (whatever that means), they should "get the fuck out" and not bother with assembly, and that's foolishness.

And that "get the fuck out" attitude actually discredits the US.

[Edited on June 30, 2006 at 7:34 PM. Reason : sss]

6/30/2006 7:32:11 PM

exactly, if you don't like something you should go away and ignore it and don't try to change it because that is how we progress as a people

6/30/2006 7:39:57 PM

there is a difference between an intelligent, peacefull movement for change and burning a US flag. If there is something you don't like about our country then there are many ways for you to be heard, make a difference etc... There is nothing wrong with a group of individuals trying to make a change, that is how America has become what it is and how it will change for the better inthe future. What purpose or should i say what being accomplished in a positive fashion to move forward with burning a flag?,

Oh shit, she burned a flag- we better ban abortion, help the homeless, lower gas prices, and end inflation. that makes sense

6/30/2006 7:46:24 PM

So one second it's this:

Quote :

"ncemt_03: sure there is- If you don't like america then get the fuck out! Don't stay here and burn flags. shit"

And then after being challenged, it's this:

Quote :

"ncemt_03: there is a difference between an intelligent, peacefull movement for change and burning a US flag. If there is something you don't like about our country then there are many ways for you to be heard, make a difference etc... There is nothing wrong with a group of individuals trying to make a change, that is how America has become what it is and how it will change for the better inthe future. What purpose or should i say what being accomplished in a positive fashion to move forward with burning a flag?, Oh shit, she burned a flag- we better ban abortion, help the homeless, lower gas prices, and end inflation. that makes sense"

And nobody is saying that burning the flag is a super effective way to protest or bring about change.

[Edited on June 30, 2006 at 7:53 PM. Reason : sss]

6/30/2006 7:52:05 PM

If you don't like freedom of speech then get the fuck out!

6/30/2006 7:57:40 PM

Quote :

"nobody is saying that burning the flag is a super effective way to protest or bring about change."

not only is it not super effective it is most certainly anti-productive and uneffective

6/30/2006 8:03:51 PM

Lots of methods of protest are not productive and end up hurting the cause. That alone is not reason to throw away a constitutional right.

6/30/2006 8:05:51 PM

still your right to do it though. Defend all free speech, not just what you agree with.

[Edited on June 30, 2006 at 8:06 PM. Reason : eeeeeee]

6/30/2006 8:06:22 PM

ya free speech is cool and all but don't say anything i don't like or i'll hurt you

6/30/2006 8:15:00 PM

i will prerequify this statement with i do not believe "right of free speach" should be thrown out. But our free speach right are already tainted. You CANNOT just say whatever you want without being punished in america anymore....you plain out can't. If i am in the road and a police officer is on the other side and i yell out "I HATE COPS THEY ARE ALL PIGS" i go to jail. If you walk around with a shirt that says "kill all of the niggers, spics, and jews" you go to jail. there are a million different examples how our right are infringed and for the most part they are for the greater good as would a flag burning amendment. Half of our constitutional rights are not followed out and observed in the same way they were years ago- Nearly every single right we "have" does not truly belong to us.

for the record:
A) I do not want my constitutional rights stripped of me
B) I am not a fan of government and do not condone many of their actions and policies
C) I do not feal that all cops are pigs or that african americans, latin americans, or the jewish community should be killed.

6/30/2006 8:27:18 PM

^You're not a native, are you? Speach, speach, feal? There's no way English is your first language.

Quote :

"ncemt_03: i will prerequify this statement with i do not believe "right of free speach" should be thrown out. But our free speach right are already tainted. You CANNOT just say whatever you want without being punished in america anymore....you plain out can't. If i am in the road and a police officer is on the other side and i yell out "I HATE COPS THEY ARE ALL PIGS" i go to jail (1). If you walk around with a shirt that says "kill all of the niggers, spics, and jews" you go to jail (2). there are a million different examples how our right are infringed (3) and for the most part they are for the greater good as would a flag burning amendment (5). Half of our constitutional rights are not followed out and observed in the same way they were years ago (4)- Nearly every single right we "have" does not truly belong to us."

1. Yes, you can call cops pigs and say you hate them to their face.
2. Yes, you can wear a shirt that says "kill all of the niggers, spics, and jews."
3. No, there are not a million different examples of how our rights are infringed upon. A million? Really, guy?
4. The fact that some of our rights have already been trampled is no reason to allow that trend to continue.
5. Explain how flag-burning is contrary to the greater good.

[Edited on June 30, 2006 at 8:38 PM. Reason : V]

6/30/2006 8:36:29 PM

you wouldn't be arrested for wearing that shirt, you might get your ass beat, but not arrested. You would only get arrested for yelling that you hate cops under the idea that you were provoking the officer, which may or may not be against the law. Either way, since you believe we are losing so many of our constitutional rights, you think it would be a good idea to introduce a bill that restricted the rights of the people even more? I think not.

^ beat me to it in a nutshell.

[Edited on June 30, 2006 at 8:37 PM. Reason : ]

6/30/2006 8:36:33 PM

^^Burning a flag is like spitting in the face of America as a nation...Would you not concider that this type of action is debilitating (check my spelling for me ) to our country? if any asshole can burn our national symbol in front of the whitehouse what does that tell terrorists about how much we are willing to take?

not to be juvenile, but i will take a bet with any person on here for $100 that if a group of us gather on hilsborough and march down the streets singing a song about hating cops, calling them names, and killing minorities that we WILL wind up in jail

any takers?

I do aslo understand that my stanpoints/positions on this topic are not even close to intelectual and that you all are much wittier and well versed than i may be but the moral of the story is that it is now ok to burn an American flag. It is wrong! and of all the things that i believe our country does wrong I do feal that they, as our governing body may do what is in the best interest of the population. Flag burning is not in the best interest if the nation

Amend 1:

Quote :

"the right of the people peaceably toassemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Peaceably:

Inclined or disposed to peace; promoting calm:.
2. Peaceful; undisturbed.

i might just give up...i probably should huh?

6/30/2006 9:04:53 PM

Burning a flag is so violent and all.

6/30/2006 9:14:06 PM

Quote :

"ncemt_03: ^^Burning a flag is like spitting in the face of America as a nation..."

Maybe to you...and even if it was...

Quote :

"ncemt_03: Would you not concider that this type of action is debilitating (check my spelling for me ) to our country?"

consider, not concider. Also, feel, not feal.

Quote :

"ncemt_03: if any asshole can burn our national symbol in front of the whitehouse what does that tell terrorists about how much we are willing to take?"

Tell me this is a joke.

Quote :

"ncemt_03: not to be juvenile, but i will take a bet with any person on here for $100 that if a group of us gather on hilsborough and march down the streets singing a song about hating cops, calling them names, and killing minorities that we WILL wind up in jail any takers?"

Get a permit. And I'll take cash, by the way.

Quote :

"ncemt_03: It is wrong! and of all the things that i believe our country does wrong I do feal that they, as our governing body may do what is in the best interest of the population. Flag burning is not in the best interest if the nation"

Prove it.

6/30/2006 9:17:31 PM

why do you hate freedom, bridget

6/30/2006 9:27:52 PM

^^a permit? does it say anywhere in the constitution that in order to demonstrate freedom of speech that it is necesary to obtain a permit?
c'mon-All americans have the freedom to say what they want either in private, public, or demonstration, upheld by the United States Constitution, so long as they obtain a permit to do so. In short speak freely with our permission, in other words- say what we allow you to...


BTW: It is not necessary to correct my spelling- It is actually quite redundant and pointless. whether i can spell well, or have wonderful grammar has no bearing on my standpoint.
also, i don't feal that it is necessary to throw personal shots in...That is the problem with discussing things of this nature. It turns from a discussion to a personal argument.

I didn't post in this thread to throw blows as in chit chat- save that shit for another time

6/30/2006 10:03:37 PM

She might need a permit if they claim it is a parade. Spouting racist babble needs no permit.

6/30/2006 10:23:50 PM

^Yeah, I assumed he wanted to march down the middle of Hillsborough St. or something. But if we're just talking about going for a walk and shouting bullshit at the top of our lungs...that's easy money. ncemt_03, I accept your bet.

And I realize that spelling has nothing to do with an individual's intelligence, but that won't stop me from correcting the glaring errors, particularly when someone asks me to check their spelling.

VI was thinking that too.

[Edited on June 30, 2006 at 10:31 PM. Reason : sss]

6/30/2006 10:29:32 PM

There are already crazy homeless people on that street that shout many of the things you want her to shout.

just fyi

6/30/2006 10:30:47 PM

Quote :

"for the Communists supporting the desecration amendment..."

I think I'll put a stake in the ground as one such Communist who supports the amendment.

In general I am tired of the "unlimited free speech" cabal in the country, the people who wholeheartedly support Fred Phelps's rights to protest at the funerals for AIDS victims and military burials. Enough with the Nazi street marches already.

Banning flag burning -- an act so obviously indecent, no matter how impolite the company -- seems to me a rather easy, symbolic stab at the broader issue of "free speech absolutism." Why should the various states, and the Congress, not be allowed to assert its limitations if the political will exists?

In my mind defining free speech is not a static thing. It's evolutionary -- we as a society have grown into the notion of broad-based free speech rights, and practically everyone accepts them as such. Now we have a foundation for figuring out -- deliberately -- what speech is so indecent that it should not be allowed, as a matter of public decorum and respect. This is a process of maturation for society, not a sudden, reactionary movement as it has been painted.

I think it's a similar process for me personally. I just don't swallow the "chilling effect" argument whole anymore. There are too many holes in it -- would flag-burning, for instance, really succeed in the marketplace for ideas, or is it really just a no-value proposition altogether? I think most reasonable people would choose the latter, and would further opt even to not expose their kids to it on the streets or the media.

Should we ban types of speech willy-nilly? No. But a Constitutional amendment doesn't happen willy-nilly or automatically, in the dead of night.

(I do agree, btw, that desecration is overly broad -- burning the flag is a singular act of speech whereas the flag itself is not a Holy Object. In fact this whole debate would be much more reasonable if flag burning were the sole point of contention ...)

7/2/2006 6:07:49 AM

KKK marches have to get permits.

7/2/2006 6:08:02 PM