Quote :

" agree that moving on is the goal but there should be special treatment to get the black people out of poverty and shame if you did something wrong to someone wouldnt you give them some kind of special treatment without letting them do something wrong so i guess this lady should be punished without special treatment but there should be some special treatment somewhere"

WHAT PLANET ARE YOU FROM?

6/29/2006 3:18:16 PM

this thread got even MORE retarded

wow

6/29/2006 3:34:03 PM

Quote :

"A shopper charged with second-degree murder in connection with an argument that ended another woman's life will face no additional jail time after she accepted a plea deal on Monday."

there was no trial, no evidence, just a plea.

Quote :

"Arnold, who was initially charged with assault with serious injury, did spend three days in jail after returning to Raleigh to face the second-degree murder charge."

6/29/2006 6:45:28 PM

a better article

Quote :

"RALEIGH - A Georgia woman whose shove at a discount clothing store in April led to a Smithfield woman's death and a murder charge pleaded guilty this week to involuntary manslaughter. Kimberly Laverne Arnold, 40, of Powder Springs, Ga., was sentenced to two years supervised probation, 200 hours of community service and three days in jail, which she served after her arrest. Superior Court Judge Leon Stanback suspended a prison term of 16 to 20 months and transferred Arnold's probation to Georgia. Arnold also was ordered to pay $35,000 in restitution to the family of Gina B. Loeh, who lived in Smithfield. She could have received as much as 5 years in prison. In April, Arnold and Loeh, 52, got into a fight about who was next in the cashier line at the Ross Dress for Less near Triangle Town Center in North Raleigh. The argument escalated into name-calling and resumed when the women exited the store. In the parking lot, Arnold shoved Loeh, who was in poor health. Loeh sustained a head injury when she hit the ground and died a week later. Arnold originally was charged with second-degree murder, but was indicted on manslaughter. Wake First Assistant District Attorney Howard Cummings had asked the judge to give Arnold about a year of prison time. "Pushing [Loeh] down is what caused her death," he said. "It was an intentional act with unintended consequences." Arnold's defense lawyer, Howard Kurtz, said that Stanback noted that his client had led an exemplary life without a single arrest or even a traffic citation. Her case file included more than a dozen letters attesting to her character. "Kim is involved in the PTA, church, coaches kids basketball. She's really a remarkable woman," Kurtz said. "This is one of those situations where she is absolutely devastated by what happened." The incident on April 18 turned ugly on both sides, according to court testimony. Arnold, along with her mother and sister, had approached the cash register at Ross behind a gaggle of people, including Loeh and her daughter, Stephanie. When Arnold's group arrived at the cashier, Loeh accused Arnold of cutting in line. Arnold apologized and offered to let Loeh have her place in line. According to Kurtz, Loeh, who is white, turned to her daughter and made a derogatory comment about Arnold's race and her line-cutting. Arnold, who is black, turned to her mother and asked whether she had heard Loeh correctly. She then insulted Loeh by calling her "cross-eyed" in reference to Loeh's glass eye. Moments later, Arnold left the store with her mother and sister, got into the driver's seat of a red Lincoln Navigator and attempted to drive away. Loeh and her daughter followed Arnold outside. As the Navigator began to leave, Loeh pushed a baby carriage toward the SUV and, according to Kurtz, Loeh shouted the "n-word" at Arnold. Arnold got out of her vehicle, placed both hands on Loeh's shoulders and shoved her. Loeh staggered backwards and fell to the ground, hitting her head. "It was impossible to tell at that point how badly she was injured," Kurtz said. When police arrived, Loeh was conscious enough to deny making the racial slur about Arnold, despite everyone else present agreeing she had uttered it, Kurtz said."

[Edited on June 29, 2006 at 7:00 PM. Reason : k]

6/29/2006 6:56:27 PM

SO WHAT GIVE HER THE CHAIR!!!!!!1

6/29/2006 7:13:37 PM

^^^ I got you, that means the arrest was officially made on Friday, they had 72hrs by NC law to arraign her, which would have been monday. Wonder if they just recently decided to follow through with the murder charges. I wouldn't think they would just let her sit down in GA. for over a month, unless maybe they were already in talks with her lawyer, and maybe that's why they reduced the charges.

Either way the dead woman was fucking stupid for what she did. And this woman is stupid for getting out of her car once she was already in it.

6/29/2006 8:38:50 PM

So do you think they'll both go to hell? Loeh had hatred in her heart and lied about calling the black lady a nigger. The other cunt dropped this bitch on her head and killed her, whether it happened immediately or not, she did it, which is a sin too. Better start praying or they are gonna be fighting each other in checkout lines for all eternity in hell.

6/29/2006 10:24:02 PM

no because hell doesn't exist

6/29/2006 11:08:42 PM

This situation is so close to drunk driving. If someone was driving drunk (intentional) and hit an old woman in a car (unintentional), and she died (unintentional)-the person would spend time in prison-no questions asked! This lady almost eft but decided to get out of her car WITH THE INTENTION OF PUSHING THE OLD WOMAN (intentional) after arguing with the old woman, and she died (unintentional).
I don't see why you people can't all agree that the sentence is unfair! The woman knew exactly what she was doing and all she had to do was keep driving, but no-she stopped and got out of the vehicle and bullied the old woman, resulting in her death.

6/30/2006 12:17:29 AM

blind lady didn't shover her to start anything... you walk away from words.. if you can't, you should pay the consequences, i don't care what color you are... to not have at least a year of jail time is pathetic... how does someone reported to have such great character get so mad at some old blind bat to actually shove her, i mean really...

PC bull crap

6/30/2006 12:56:20 AM

PUT HER TO DEATH

6/30/2006 1:56:12 AM

I stand corrected,

Edited for truth:

Quote :

"Morale of the story: Never piss off old white ladies and shopping black ladies (intentionally or unintentionally) "

6/30/2006 7:14:10 AM

is pleaded a word?

and i like the drunk driving analogy. very apt. regardless of the (un)intended ramifications of your actions, your actions are intentional.

6/30/2006 8:38:34 AM

This is a fine example of the individual vs. collective rights mentioned in http://www.thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=416236

6/30/2006 8:48:15 AM

Well, I think the article on this page tells a more detailed story than the first article. She should have walked away, but I think the $35,000 is a adequate penalty.

I still think bridget is fucked up for acting like the real victim of this story is Arnold. She chose to push the old woman, plain and simple.

6/30/2006 10:16:09 AM

In any dispute involving race, Bridget will defend the black person. It's a given.

It's best just to ignore her when talking about race because she's irrational.

6/30/2006 10:50:07 AM

But, anyway, I actually have quite a bit of sympathy for Adolph Hitler. Can you imagine that? You're just out leading Germany, things go wrong, you lose your temper, and BAM you've got millions of stranger's blood on your hands.

i think thats what bridget said, i cant recall

6/30/2006 12:06:09 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

thread over. tree, you finally killed it for good

NOTHING TO SEE HERE

[Edited on June 30, 2006 at 1:00 PM. Reason : .]

6/30/2006 12:58:30 PM

ahaha wtf...Godwin's Law?

6/30/2006 12:59:37 PM

shouldnt be allowed to just walk free when you intentionally commit to an act of violence that results in someone's death

6/30/2006 1:00:29 PM

^^^i think thats your longest post of the 4-page thread

6/30/2006 1:08:49 PM

okay

6/30/2006 1:28:57 PM

I still say that the worst punishment was living with what she did and that a short prison term would've done little to appease the blind woman's family or somehow rehabilitate the black woman.

IIRC, there was a case in which a cop ran a red light and killed a kid in Durham. The cop also didn't do time for his offense, despite being guilty of involuntary manslaughter. The two situations are fairly comparable.

6/30/2006 4:02:43 PM

Quote :

"Jere: I still think bridget is fucked up for acting like the real victim of this story is Arnold. She chose to push the old woman, plain and simple."

I expressed sympathy for her. I never once said she was the "real victim."

Quote :

"Prawn Star: In any dispute involving race, Bridget will defend the black person. It's a given. It's best just to ignore her when talking about race because she's irrational."

Yeah, it totally annoys me how she's always defending civil rights and shit.

Quote :

"FitchNCSU: Uh, you're wrong. TreeTwista10 is right. Give it up."

No, I'm right. TreeTwista10 keeps calling her a murderer. I point out that she's not so he posts a quote where the Loeh's death is referred to as a homocide. I explain that homocide is not always murder. He posts a quote where it says she was charged with second-degree murder. I explain that she pled to manslaughter, which is not murder. NOT MURDER. NOT MURDER. NOT MURDER. It's not that hard to understand, FitchNCSU, and you should have read the thread because everybody but TreeTwista10 agrees that this is not a case of murder. Nice job on attaching yourself to the wrong side of a bullshit argument.


Now, folks, I have to add a couple more things...Loeh was not old and Arnold wasn't "bullying" anybody. Quit saying that.

Also, to all the people advocating self-control and "walking away," good for you. You're absolutely right. Our prisons hold quite a few people who have no self-control, who do whatever they want regardless of how those actions might affect other people. Many of them have rap sheets that require a ream of paper to print: burglary, arson, rape, assault, DUI, etc...

Kimberly Arnold doesn't have a rap sheet like that, does she? But some of you are ready to pin her as an out-of-control one woman scourge on society who belongs in prison.

[Edited on June 30, 2006 at 4:06 PM. Reason : sss]

6/30/2006 4:04:36 PM

the fact that the only defense you have for your comments earlier is the semantics of killing vs. murder vs. homicide shows you're reaching pretty far

6/30/2006 4:28:45 PM

^Reaching pretty far for what???

And the only reason I kept having to explain the difference between all those things is because you kept using the terms incorrectly.

6/30/2006 4:34:05 PM

Quote :

"FitchNCSU, and you should have read the thread because everybody but TreeTwista10 agrees that this is not a case of murder. Nice job on attaching yourself to the wrong side of a bullshit argument."

I don't feel like reading the entire thread, everyone's comment, and all the bullshit in it. Sorry. She was charged with murder. Whatever. Ms. Arnold took another life because she had to be a bad-ass. Ms. Arnold deserves some prison time because she killed another person. OK?

If anything, this statement is what got me questioning your rationale:

Quote :

"But, anyway, I actually have quite a bit of sympathy for Kimberly Arnold. Can you imagine that? You're just out shopping, things go wrong, you lose your temper, and BAM you've got a stranger's blood on your hands."

You make it seem as if you are insinuating that losing one's temper is excusable.

So you will sympathize with me if I punch out or push a blind and beligerent black guy for calling me a cracker if I am just "minding my own business" while shopping. And he dies... so you'll feel some sympathy for ME then?

From the news article:

Quote :

"Arnold, who is black, turned to her mother and asked whether she had heard Loeh correctly. She then insulted Loeh by calling her "cross-eyed" in reference to Loeh's glass eye. Moments later, Arnold left the store with her mother and sister, got into the driver's seat of a red Lincoln Navigator and attempted to drive away. Loeh and her daughter followed Arnold outside. As the Navigator began to leave, Loeh pushed a baby carriage toward the SUV and, according to Kurtz, Loeh shouted the "n-word" at Arnold. Arnold got out of her vehicle, placed both hands on Loeh's shoulders and shoved her. Loeh staggered backwards and fell to the ground, hitting her head."

So she gets out the Navigator and pushes the crazy blind woman who is pushing a baby carriage. Sounds like someone has sort of complex of being a bad-ass. A perfect candidate for prison.

[Edited on June 30, 2006 at 5:06 PM. Reason : :]

6/30/2006 5:01:15 PM

Quote :

"^Reaching pretty far for what??? And the only reason I kept having to explain the difference between all those things is because you kept using the terms incorrectly."

you're defending a woman who killed another woman because you think manslaughter and murder are completely different

and before you point out that they are completely different...think about this

whats the difference in murder and manslaughter to Gina Loeh?

she's DEAD either way and its COMPLETELY THE FAULT of kimberly arnold, who you "have quite a bit of sympathy for"

6/30/2006 5:07:31 PM

Quote :

"FitchNCSU: I don't feel like reading the entire thread, everyone's comment, and all the bullshit in it. Sorry. She was charged with murder. Whatever. Ms. Arnold took another life because she had to be a bad-ass. Ms. Arnold deserves some prison time because she killed another person. OK?"

One thing we're debating is whether or not Arnold deserves prison time. And if you are unwilling to concede the difference between manslaughter and murder, you're not fit for this argument. You should concede that you were wrong when you agreed with TreeTwista10 that this woman is a murderer. And, by the way, how do you know that "she had to be a bad-ass"? Her lack of a criminal record suggests otherwise.

Quote :

"FitchNCSU: If anything, this statement is what got me questioning your rationale:"

My sympathy for a human being makes you question my rationale? What is my rationale here? I've yet to say whether or not I think Arnold deserves jail time. Other users have stated that they think the punishment is fair as it is, but you're not arguing with them. Why is that?

Quote :

"FitchNCSU: You make it seem as if you are insinuating that losing one's temper is excusable."

Muster up some guts and be concise, man...and, no, I don't think losing one's temper is excusable; sometimes it requires punishment, and the question here is whether Kimberly Arnold is being punished enough.

Quote :

"FitchNCSU: So you will sympathize with me if I punch out or push a blind and beligerent black guy for calling me a cracker if I am just "minding my own business" while shopping. And he dies... so you'll feel some sympathy for ME then?"

1. Okay, that's twice now that someone has slipped in the "minding my own business" part as if that's what I'm arguing happened here. I never said that. From page one:

Quote :

"BridgetSPK: ^I never said she was minding her business. I said things went wrong and she lost her temper."

2. And, yes, I would totally have sympathy for you. I'm different. And I'm also a woman (not sure if that matters though).

Quote :

"TreeTwista10: you're defending a woman who killed another woman because you think manslaughter and murder are completely different and before you point out that they are completely different...think about this whats the difference in murder and manslaughter to Gina Loeh? she's DEAD either way and its COMPLETELY THE FAULT of kimberly arnold, who you "have quite a bit of sympathy for""

AHA, so you're switching up the argument. Before, it was "She's a murderer. I don't care what you say or how many times you explain otherwise, she's a murderer!" Now it's "Okay, she's not a murderer but it doesn't matter because she killed someone." It still matters. Nice try at appealing to my emotions though.

6/30/2006 5:51:28 PM

Quote :

" And, by the way, how do you know that "she had to be a bad-ass"? Her lack of a criminal record suggests otherwise."

Never mind that she escalated the situation in the store, she STOPPED her moving car, GOT OUT of the car, PURPOSEFULY went to the woman and PURPOSEFULY shoved her. She was already on the way out and turned arround a came back. As I said before the mitigated minimum sentence is a few months in jail. Nothing in arnold's actions indicates that the sentece should have been mitigated further.

And no, living with the crime is not what I call punishment enough. Every criminal has to live with their crimes. Even the serial killers.

6/30/2006 6:00:13 PM

Quote :

"TreeTwista10, she didn't murder anybody, silly."

Quote :

"A shopper charged with second-degree murder "

Quote :

"A shopper charged with second-degree murder "

Quote :

"A shopper charged with second-degree murder "

Quote :

"A shopper charged with second-degree murder "

Quote :

"A shopper charged with second-degree murder "

she was charged with murder

you're defending her

and you're only argument are the legalities of terms

you're a heartless bitch

6/30/2006 6:03:58 PM

^We've been over this. She wasn't convicted of second-degree murder. She pled to manslaughter and rightfully so.

Quote :

"second–degree murder: a murder that is committed without premeditation but with some intent (as general or transferred intent) or other circumstances not covered by the first-degree murder statute"

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?db=mwlaw&q=murder

Are you suggesting that Arnold intended to kill Loeh?

6/30/2006 6:36:35 PM

she still killed her.

6/30/2006 9:53:38 PM

quit letting the facts get in the way of your feelings

6/30/2006 9:55:58 PM

facts are scary on t-dubb

6/30/2006 10:02:46 PM

thankfully, facts are quite rare on t-dubb, too

6/30/2006 10:03:12 PM

Quote :

"And no, living with the crime is not what I call punishment enough. Every criminal has to live with their crimes. Even the serial killers."

I said it was the worst punishment. She clearly isn't in the same league as serial killer as it's pretty clear that she never intended to kill and she only did it once. There's no doubt in my mind that what she did was wrong, but do you really think the prison system can provide any sort of rehabilitation beyond the knowledge of what she did?

And what about the Durham police officer incident? Here's the link for that by the way:

http://www.wral.com/news/2963453/detail.html

In this case, someone (a cop I might add) also behaved irresponsibly and caused the needless death of a citizen. He also apologized as did Arnold. The differences here is that the parents of the victim agreed to a plea bargain and the officer only gets a $100 fine plus court costs. In this case the family of the victim is seeking payment from the city, not the officer.

In both cases, defendant is at fault and regrets his or her actions. My point isn't so much that Arnold deserved to go free as it is that this sort of thing is not unusual.

6/30/2006 10:13:57 PM

the officer should have gotten time too

6/30/2006 10:20:02 PM

^^Thank you.

Now we can back off the idea that this "light" punishment was so unusual that it had to be racially motivated.

6/30/2006 10:32:55 PM

like i said... i don't care what race anybody was... she should be chillin in joliet

6/30/2006 10:33:49 PM

^You're right, you did, but you fucked it all up with one line...

Quote :

"Fry: blind lady didn't shover her to start anything... you walk away from words.. if you can't, you should pay the consequences, i don't care what color you are... to not have at least a year of jail time is pathetic... how does someone reported to have such great character get so mad at some old blind bat to actually shove her, i mean really... PC bull crap"

"Race doesn't matter, but actually race does matter, and this was obviously racially motivated."

6/30/2006 11:17:02 PM

i didnt say that last line? i dont care what color you are (aka race doesnt matter) somebody explain

[Edited on June 30, 2006 at 11:23 PM. Reason : ]

6/30/2006 11:22:44 PM

Quote :

"Yeah, it totally annoys me how she's always defending civil rights and shit."

I am curious, what civil rights of Arnold were violated?

6/30/2006 11:25:02 PM

^^You did say that last line. That quote is from this page.

I'm really just arguing something rather subtle and close to meaningless...but anyway, you can't claim this:

Quote :

"Fry: like i said... i don't care what race anybody was... she should be chillin in joliet"

After saying this:

Quote :

"Fry: PC bullcrap"

You're saying that you don't care what race anybody was, but really you do care because you think all this was motivated by our desire to be politically correct and be nice to black folks.

^I wasn't referring to this thread. And you guys should really read this thread...you'll see that all I did was express sympathy for the woman, defend that expression of sympathy, and repeatedly explain the difference between murder and manslaughter. I haven't even actually decided how I feel about the punishment.

[Edited on June 30, 2006 at 11:33 PM. Reason : sss]

6/30/2006 11:29:31 PM

just the fact that everybody seems to be all caught up in the racial side of it is PC bullcrap... like her excuse of a racial slur as being part of why she shoved the other lady to begin with... right?

I personnally don't care what race anybody was... i'm saying the care of others is PC crap
by last line i meant the one that you said, that was a misunderstanding, i got it now

[Edited on June 30, 2006 at 11:32 PM. Reason : ]

6/30/2006 11:31:17 PM

^So you think theDuke866 is trying to be politcally correct when he says this:

Quote :

"theDuke866: and no, I don't think the sentence is necessarily light. I don't know what started the argument, but I do know that I've done much worse than shove a couple of people who had it coming. If one of them had died, I wouldn't view it as a murder."

You are trying to reduce it to:

1. You're for prison time for her.

or

2. You're a politcally correct apologist who lets black people get away with everything.

It's not that simple.

6/30/2006 11:38:16 PM

^^^Just checking, because Arnold's civil rights weren't violated. When you explicitly express sympathy for one of the two people involved, it does seem to imply that you feel somewhat less sympathy for the other.

[Edited on June 30, 2006 at 11:40 PM. Reason : ]

6/30/2006 11:40:17 PM

^

Quote :

"BridgetSPK: ^^I didn't say I had no sympathy for the deceased and her family. But I'm not one of those "aww, she's dead...let's pretend she did no wrong" people either."

6/30/2006 11:42:54 PM

I stand corrected. Please accept my sincerest apologies.

6/30/2006 11:46:53 PM

if ur talkin to me bridget... i really dont care what theduke says.. i say the woman deserves prison time for being responsible for a woman's death after her choice to commit physical violence against her and i dont care if she's orange or purple or green or blue or whatever else

6/30/2006 11:48:43 PM