Of course, the same would go for anyone screaming "Dey tuk urr land!"

No native Palestinian has any more right to that land than any native Israeli.

7/17/2006 7:18:24 PM

Many Israelis weren't born there, though, and many Palestinians are refugees.

7/17/2006 7:24:25 PM

If only the UN had existed during our civil war...

7/17/2006 7:25:12 PM

some would say that "might makes right" in terms of land...you set up somewhere...you establish a nation...you defend it...ya know...i dont know

all i know is israel is not leaving so the morons who think they should just pack it up and go can just get over it...that will never happen

7/17/2006 7:26:17 PM

Quote :

"I will lay down fifty dollars right now that says Protostar does not think North America, in its entirity, should be given back to the Indians."

I'm actually totally down for this.

GTFO!

Now...where's that peace pipe?

7/17/2006 7:36:54 PM

We all understand that 6 million+ people aren't going to up and leave, no one is seriously suggesting that.

7/17/2006 7:38:12 PM

the real issue here is...

how can we use this event to further our anti-UN cause/get mad at France?

7/17/2006 7:38:33 PM

and ban gay marriage and flag burning

YEE HAWWW!

[Edited on July 17, 2006 at 7:39 PM. Reason : .]

7/17/2006 7:39:15 PM

AHA, Waluigi cracks me up.

7/17/2006 7:39:40 PM

^^actually, youre spot on

that IS what congress is discussing this week!

7/17/2006 7:41:26 PM

i know

7/17/2006 7:42:30 PM

hey at least congress is doing somethin.. i guess they all finally got back from their monthly vacations

7/17/2006 7:44:17 PM

I'd rather them do nothing than do retarded, regressive, de-evolution, cro-magnon shit like they are doing.

7/17/2006 7:45:49 PM

that's your opinion, i'd prefer gay marriages were banned, but thats for another thread altogether that im sure someone knows has been made and has saved the link just so they can post about it

[Edited on July 17, 2006 at 7:48 PM. Reason : ]

7/17/2006 7:48:15 PM

Quote :

"that's your opinion, i'd prefer gay marriages social conservatism was banned"

7/17/2006 8:54:03 PM

Quote :

"No native Palestinian has any more right to that land than any native Israeli."

Actually, I'd be willing to say that at least some of the Palestinians had land in Israel. Certainly some palestinians are children of people who had land taken away for the formation of Israel. I'd say that gives them more of a right to claim that land as theirs than it does native americans today to do so or for blacks in america to demand "reparations."

7/17/2006 8:54:44 PM

Quote :

"some would say that "might makes right" in terms of land"

Might makes right does it? So what happens when the US/Israel aren't so mighty anymore?

7/17/2006 9:05:33 PM

idk about israel but i dont see the u.s. losing too much position anytime soon

7/17/2006 9:06:56 PM

^^ Do you really think that Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, etc. would let up if the United States or Israel lost their power? What makes you think that they'd back off? Our prowess didn't prevent 9/11, the bombing of the USS Cole, the embassy bombings, et. al.

I can't even fathom to imagine just how bad it would be here if the United States didn't have the resources to fight the war on terror.

7/17/2006 9:11:58 PM

Quote :

"I will lay down fifty dollars right now that says Protostar does not think North America, in its entirity, should be given back to the Indians."

Thats a difficult question to answer. I personally would see nothing wrong with it, seeing how the US government broke treaty after treaty with them. But moving nearly 300 million people would be nearly impossible, as opposed to moving the amount of people in Israel and returning the land to the Palestinians. Make no mistake, it will happen sooner or later.

7/17/2006 9:14:20 PM

Quote :

"Do you really think that Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, etc. would let up if the United States or Israel lost their power? What makes you think that they'd back off?"

yes. I don't buy all this "they hate us for our culture crap" the the fearmongoring RW spews out to rally the sheep. They hate us for our support of Israel and our constant meddling in their affairs (supporting dictators and such).

Quote :

"I can't even fathom to imagine just how bad it would be here if the United States didn't have the resources to fight the war on terror."

Why? Because it would force the US to treat people as equals instead of using them, tossing them aside, and then crying bitch when their stupidity comes and bites them in the ass? Because it would force the US to focus on its own short comings instead of meddling in everyone elses affairs? So sad.

7/17/2006 9:18:12 PM

Quote :

"yes. I don't buy all this "they hate us for our culture crap" the the fearmongoring RW spews out to rally the sheep. They hate us for our support of Israel and our constant meddling in their affairs (supporting dictators and such)."

Then you haven't been paying attention to what at Al Qaeda has been saying for years.

Israel is an ally. The United States has always come to the aid of their allies such as Great Britain, Kuwait, even France and Russia during WWII, because it serves a mutual purpose. That's how diplomacy works. I fail to see how allowing a whole nation to be eradicated because of their religion is a sound foreign policy move, futhermore I fail to see how it wouldn't do anything but encourage more attacks if the United States makes such a weak and misguided move.

What you conveniently ignore is that the United States has sent billions in financial aid to the middle eastern arab nations and other places around the world, but we're the bad guys for playing by the diplomatic rules that every nation pursues in its foreign policy.

With regards to meddling in their affairs, are you saying that the US should have stood idly by while, for instance, the former Soviet Union gobbled up the rest of the world by setting up their own puppet dictators? The United States has acted in its best interests, the world and its technology have made the days of isolationism obscelete.

Quote :

"Why? Because it would force the US to treat people as equals instead of using them, tossing them aside, and then crying bitch when their stupidity comes and bites them in the ass?"

Stupidity is ignoring what is going on outside of our borders as if sticking your head in the sand will solve all of our problems.

Hindsight is always 20/20. It's nice to be able to sit and pontificate as if your snide remarks could change what seemed like good diplomatic sense 10, 20 or even 30 plus years ago.

Do you not think that Al Qaeda isn't pitting the 2 factions of islam against one another? I fail to see how you can attack the United States and their motives but totally ignore the motives of others.

[Edited on July 17, 2006 at 9:37 PM. Reason : more]

7/17/2006 9:34:47 PM

Quote :

"The United States has acted in its best interests, the world and its technology have made the days of isolationism obscelete suicidal."

7/17/2006 9:44:34 PM

Quote :

"Then you haven't been paying attention to what at Al Qaeda has been saying for years."

Al Qaeda is a product of the US government. Osama Bin Laden and those like him were funded/trained by the US government (CIA) to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan.

Quote :

"Israel is an ally."

Says who? The government? Fuck the government. Israel has been nothing except a liability ever since it was created. It has done and can do nothing for the US. Had it not been for the US, Israel would have been crushed long ago.

Quote :

"I fail to see how allowing a whole nation to be eradicated because of their religion is a sound foreign policy move, futhermore I fail to see how it wouldn't do anything but encourage more attacks if the United States makes such a weak and misguided move."

It has nothing to do with their religion. Stop trying to turn this into a "You hate the Jews" debate. I have no problem with the Jews, but I have a big problem with them sitting on land that isn't theirs. The US should have never stepped in and funded/supported Israel in anyway. The only reason it did, is because Israel serves as a proxy, military outpost to keep the reat of the ME in line to help keep that oil flowing. It has nothing to do with the US caring about the Jews. Thats just the lie they tell Americans to get people to rally around this senseless policy.

Quote :

"What you conveniently ignore is that the United States has sent billions in financial aid to the middle eastern arab nations and other places around the world, but we're the bad guys for playing by the diplomatic rules that every nation pursues in its foreign policy."

Should have never sent foreign aid to anyone. I support cutting foreign aid to all nations, including Israel. I support spending American taxpayer dollars in America.

Quote :

"With regards to meddling in their affairs, are you saying that the US should have stood idly by while, for instance, the former Soviet Union gobbled up the rest of the world by setting up their own puppet dictators? "

Whats worse, the Soviet Union doing that or the United States? I guess it just depends on your point of view, cause I see no difference as innocent people suffer and die at any rate.

Quote :

"The United States has acted in its best interests, the world and its technology have made the days of isolationism obscelete."

But what are the US's "best interests"? Are they the best interests of Americans, or corporations? How do I as an American citizen benefit from the war in Iraq? How do I as an American citizen benefit from supporting Israel?

Quote :

"Stupidity is ignoring what is going on outside of our borders as if sticking your head in the sand will solve all of our problems."

Agreed, but sticking your head in other people's business simply because you're "bigger" and "badder" is not the way to go. And thats whats causing these problems, American interventionalism.

Quote :

"Hindsight is always 20/20. It's nice to be able to sit and pontificate as if your snide remarks could change what seemed like good diplomatic sense 10, 20 or even 30 plus years ago."

Agreed, but since the US government is pursuing the same idiotic policies it was 10, 20, and 30 years ago my comments/remarks apply today.

Quote :

"Do you not think that Al Qaeda isn't pitting the 2 factions of islam against one another? I fail to see how you can attack the United States and their motives but totally ignore the motives of others."

I don't ignore the motives of others, I simply believe that the US antagonizes the people with their interventionalist policies. Stop supporting Israel and GTFO of the ME and 95% of this anti-Americanism would simply disapper. Let it be said, that this anti-American attitude spreads far wider than the ME. Most of the world holds a negative view of America, thats to this fool in the White House.

7/17/2006 9:59:57 PM

^Protostar you make some very good points

7/17/2006 10:09:04 PM

^Thank you. I try.

7/17/2006 10:12:06 PM

thats nice...the two most idiotic people in this thread congratulating each other...well done guys

7/17/2006 10:56:40 PM

Quote :

"Al Qaeda is a product of the US government. Osama Bin Laden and those like him were funded/trained by the US government (CIA) to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan."

The ideals and hatred that fuel Al Qaeda are not a product of the US government. Shifting allegiences in the foreign policy game happens all the time and isn't unique to Al Qaeda's betrayal to those who initially trained them.

Quote :

"Says who? The government? Fuck the government. Israel has been nothing except a liability ever since it was created. It has done and can do nothing for the US. Had it not been for the US, Israel would have been crushed long ago."

Well, given that the government creates policy, and its policy towards Israel has been the same in Republican and Democratic administrations alike, it seems like the government is saying fuck you.

Israel is the most trustworthy ally in the middle east. And given their strategic location, they do serve a great purpose for the United States and its interests.

Quote :

" Stop trying to turn this into a "You hate the Jews" debate. I have no problem with the Jews, but I have a big problem with them sitting on land that isn't theirs. The US should have never stepped in and funded/supported Israel in anyway"

Then take up your problem with the organization that created Israel - the United Nations.

Again, Israel is the most trustworthy and sane ally in the region and they serve a great strategic purpose.

Ignoring the racist overtones of Iran and their puppets in Syria and Lebanon might be convenient but is far from the truth. If Israel was a Muslim nation do you think that they'd be targeted and hated like they are right now?

Quote :

"Should have never sent foreign aid to anyone. I support cutting foreign aid to all nations, including Israel. I support spending American taxpayer dollars in America."

The money sent abroad is nothing compared to the taxpayer dollars spent in America. So if the United States ended its humanitarian benevolence don't you think that would create an even bigger backlash? For as much as the Palestinians, for example, hate the US and Israel, they depend exclusely on humanitarian funding from both nations.

It seems to me that you'd create an even bigger vacuum of hatred towards the United States if we decided to ignore the plights of the rest of the world.

Quote :

"Whats worse, the Soviet Union doing that or the United States? I guess it just depends on your point of view, cause I see no difference as innocent people suffer and die at any rate."

Clearly the country that supports and promotes basic human freedoms is as bad as one that utilized bloodshed and the oppression of the masses in order to protect the people from themselves.

Stalin killed 20 million innocent people during his reign in Soviet Russia, and who knows how many more in his iron curtain satellite nations across the world. Sure, the United States' policy has been flawed in the past by promoting anybody that would stick up against the USSR no matter what, but comparing our policy to that of the USSR shows a lack of knowledge of the evils of communism and those who have used it to kill and torture untold millions during the 20th century.

Quote :

"But what are the US's "best interests"? Are they the best interests of Americans, or corporations? How do I as an American citizen benefit from the war in Iraq? How do I as an American citizen benefit from supporting Israel?"

LOL! Yes, all of those faceless fat rich white guys in their smoke-filled backrooms control the United States and love war, death, Jews, and destruction!11!!!

The last time I checked, corporations do not vote. People do. Blaming everything on corporations is nothing more than intellectual laziness and sounds a lot like another guy who blamed a group of people for his country's downfall.

Quote :

"Agreed, but sticking your head in other people's business simply because you're "bigger" and "badder" is not the way to go. And thats whats causing these problems, American interventionalism."

Ah, the convenience of thinking that if we just ignore our problems they will all go away. I've got news for ya...the United States isn't a 4 year old kid and terrorists are not the imaginary boogeyman under the bed.

What's causing these problems are oppressive muslim regimes who thrive on hatred and keeping their people ignorant by feeding them the same propaganda day in and day out by tightly regulating and even banning basic rights of speech and the press. Have a stubbed toe? Blame Israel!!1!! Have a headache? Blame the United States and their evil rock and roll!11!! Mad because you're dirt poor? It's not the fault of your leaders who graft every cent that is meant to go to you the people, it's those dirty Jews and their greed for money and land11!!!!

Quote :

"I don't ignore the motives of others, I simply believe that the US antagonizes the people with their interventionalist policies. Stop supporting Israel and GTFO of the ME and 95% of this anti-Americanism would simply disapper. Let it be said, that this anti-American attitude spreads far wider than the ME. Most of the world holds a negative view of America, thats to this fool in the White House."

You're doing nothing but making excuses for deadly behavior. Hatred for the US is a lot deeper than our supposed arrogance and cockiness in foreign policy.

I really don't care what the rest of the world thinks about the United States. Most of the rest of the world is little more than a dung heap and run by your typical run of the mill socialists who use their governments to oppress their people and line their pockets.

[Edited on July 17, 2006 at 11:02 PM. Reason : ]

7/17/2006 11:00:17 PM

^exactly

7/17/2006 11:45:20 PM

*sigh* This is going to be my last reply before I retire for the night.

Quote :

"The ideals and hatred that fuel Al Qaeda are not a product of the US government. Shifting allegiences in the foreign policy game happens all the time and isn't unique to Al Qaeda's betrayal to those who initially trained them."

Actually they are. Once Osama and his buddies realized that the US was no better than the Soviet Union as far as intervening the ME was concerned, they turned on them. Who could blame them? Noone likes being used. Something the US government and America in general refuses to realize.

Quote :

"Well, given that the government creates policy, and its policy towards Israel has been the same in Republican and Democratic administrations alike, it seems like the government is saying fuck you."

Lol, it wouldn't be the first time. Still doesn't change the fact that our support of Israel has been an albotross around our neck ever since it began. How many towers must fall before this country realizes that?

Quote :

"Israel is the most trustworthy ally in the middle east. And given their strategic location, they do serve a great purpose for the United States and its interests."

What are these interests you keep speaking of? Do elaborate.

Quote :

"Then take up your problem with the organization that created Israel - the United Nations."

And who is biggest supportor of the UN (money-wise)? And who was the biggest supporter of the creation of Israel?

Quote :

"Again, Israel is the most trustworthy and sane ally in the region and they serve a great strategic purpose."

What purpose do they serve other than sitting on stolen land, antagonizing the rest of the ME, and a bottomless money pit into which the US throws our taxpayer dollars?

Quote :

"Ignoring the racist overtones of Iran and their puppets in Syria and Lebanon might be convenient but is far from the truth. If Israel was a Muslim nation do you think that they'd be targeted and hated like they are right now?"

Again, you're trying to turn this into a "But they hate the Jews" debate. The Arabs originally had no problem with the Jews immigrating there, problems began to start when they realized that the Jews wanted to form a state there and planned to remove them from their land in doing so. That would make me pretty damn mad as well.

Quote :

"The money sent abroad is nothing compared to the taxpayer dollars spent in America."

No money should be spent abroad. Last time I checked, I paid taxes to the United States federal government. not some country in Africa. Not some country in Europe. And not Israel. If I wanted to pay taxes to any of those governments, I would move there.

Quote :

"So if the United States ended its humanitarian benevolence don't you think that would create an even bigger backlash?"

Why does this matter to me? The US would be taking care of the US just like it should be doing. And other countries could take care of their business in peace. People tending to other people's businesses instead of their own is a huge problem in this world.

Quote :

"For as much as the Palestinians, for example, hate the US and Israel, they depend exclusely on humanitarian funding from both nations."

Israels money = US money, so it really is redundant to put Israel in there. If Israel didn't exist, no money to the Palestinians would be needed. Not to mention its sort of hard to get your shit together when your constantly being shot at/blown up by the idiots next door.

Quote :

"It seems to me that you'd create an even bigger vacuum of hatred towards the United States if we decided to ignore the plights of the rest of the world."

The world's sentiments would then be irrelevant and unjustified, as we would be taking care of our own. I also love it how conservatives are oh so willing to sacrifice our monies/lives for people abroad, but never blink twice about neglecting/oppressing those here at home.

Quote :

"Clearly the country that supports and promotes basic human freedoms is as bad as one that utilized bloodshed and the oppression of the masses in order to protect the people from themselves."

How can you support basic human freedoms when you support dictators who violate said freedoms? Hyprocrite much?

Quote :

"Stalin killed 20 million innocent people during his reign in Soviet Russia, and who knows how many more in his iron curtain satellite nations across the world."

And yet he was our ally during WWII.

Quote :

"Sure, the United States' policy has been flawed in the past by promoting anybody that would stick up against the USSR no matter what, but comparing our policy to that of the USSR shows a lack of knowledge of the evils of communism and those who have used it to kill and torture untold millions during the 20th century."

Our policy was the exact same as the USSRs: Support anyone who opposes the other (US, or vice versa).

Quote :

"The last time I checked, corporations do not vote. People do. Blaming everything on corporations is nothing more than intellectual laziness and sounds a lot like another guy who blamed a group of people for his country's downfall."

Corporations don't have to vote. They spend billions each year on lobbying efforts on Congress. Why do you think they are doing this, for shits and giggles? No, they are trying (and in most cases suceeding) to get laws passed in their favor. Votes mean very little, its who has the most money who wins.

Quote :

"the United States isn't a 4 year old kid and terrorists are not the imaginary boogeyman under the bed."

Like I said, the US government created the terrorists we are facing today. I say we fix this by drastically altering our foreign policy and then cleaning shop in Washington (on BOTH sides).

Quote :

"What's causing these problems are oppressive muslim regimes who thrive on hatred and keeping their people ignorant by feeding them the same propaganda day in and day out by tightly regulating and even banning basic rights of speech and the press. Have a stubbed toe? Blame Israel!!1!! Have a headache? Blame the United States and their evil rock and roll!11!! Mad because you're dirt poor? It's not the fault of your leaders who graft every cent that is meant to go to you the people, it's those dirty Jews and their greed for money and land11!!!!"

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. And the US gives the more and more ammo all the time when we have our soldiers over there raping 15 year old girls and executing entire families. When we support a nation whose foundation rests on stolen landi, we give them ammunition. I don't blame them for spreading hate and anger towards the US and Israel. Wouldn't you hate a nation that constantly meddles in your affairs?

Quote :

"You're doing nothing but making excuses for deadly behavior. Hatred for the US is a lot deeper than our supposed arrogance and cockiness in foreign policy."

Not really. I'm outlining the causes for this deadly behavior and the solutions to them.

Quote :

"exactly"

Relevance? Anything of importance to add?

7/18/2006 12:31:10 AM

Quote :

"What purpose do they serve other than sitting on stolen land"

holy crap...as soon as i got to this i just stopped reading your stupid post....this is the dumbest argument i have ever heard....some of the things you say (very few) make sense...but when you make this the crux of your arguement you lose every bit of whatever credibility you might have had

7/18/2006 12:33:53 AM

^^now he is an anti-jew

7/18/2006 12:36:18 AM

he has been anti-jew for a long time

7/18/2006 12:37:13 AM

I just wish that everything could get settled soon, but there is still something to worry about since the muslims have too much hate for the jews and the west. In the quran, it tells them to spread their religion in any way and that includes killing. That is why it is important to defeat these extremists and weaken them, but they aren't doing that by bombing all of Lebanon, places that have nothing to do with Hezbollah resulting in the death of many innocent people.

Hezbollah is doing the same, but their weapons are just inaccurate along with the idea that they want to hurt any jew in any way. The Israelis are choosing their exact targets and are just hurting us all over.

Remember, Lebanon basically has no word or power over Hezbollah.

7/18/2006 12:46:18 AM

that's why we're allies with israel... because basically most of the middle east... aka muslims... hate the west... which translates to the U.S.

7/18/2006 12:52:12 AM

ok...we actually probably agree on this alot more than we would like to admit.

i understand why israel reacts the way it does. every time they relax someone starts blowing themselves up in crowded market places and how is israel to differentiate between arabs who want to see them wiped off the planet and arabs who dont?? but i also understand why so many arabs hate israel (i dont buy the stolen land argument). alot of innocent arabs die as a result of israeli actions and eventually alot of innocent arabs get pissed off to the point where they want to see israel gone too...

still...there are ALOT of innocent arabs who die when this bombing goes on...but there are ALOT of innocent jews who die every time a rocket get shot into israel or when a muslim blows up a bus.... i dont know what the solution is

7/18/2006 12:54:38 AM

^^ exactly, right on, it's not a coincidence that a country so small surrounded by all the muslim extremists is so strong and could probably take on most of them alone.

[Edited on July 18, 2006 at 12:55 AM. Reason : .]

7/18/2006 12:55:13 AM

^^yeah the solution seems to be tough to find. Keep doing what your doing and try to eliminate Hezbollah's power and if Syria or Iran get more involved, then maybe the US will get in eventhough Israel might not need it. Already you got some major arab countries with you (not really, but at least in this case). So keep doing what your doing minus destroying all of Lebanon. Like what they did today, which isn't easy by the way, destroying that Iranian missle that could have reached a 100 miles or so is awesome. Obviously there will be losses, but focus on going full-scale on Hezbollah instead of shooting at the Lebanese army, blowing up areas that have nothing to do with Hezbollah.

7/18/2006 1:01:45 AM

Quote :

"Actually, I'd be willing to say that at least some of the Palestinians had land in Israel. Certainly some palestinians are children of people who had land taken away for the formation of Israel. I'd say that gives them more of a right to claim that land as theirs than it does native americans today to do so or for blacks in america to demand "reparations.""

Sure, some of the older Palestinians may have once owned land in Israel. They, specifically, might be entitled to some kind of reparations. The kids of those people? Hell no. Their case is no different from slave reparations -- a bunch of people who were not alive to be slighted demand something from people who were not alive to slight.

Quote :

"I personally would see nothing wrong with it, seeing how the US government broke treaty after treaty with them."

I thought you were the anti-socialist. The government -- worse, a supernational government -- telling you where to live based on something that neither you, they, nor anybody else had anything to do with would seem counter to your professed philosophy.

Still, though, it's good to know that your values have limits, and that you're willing to abandon them for no better reason than, "Oh, man, this is too hard"

7/18/2006 12:08:49 PM

Quote :

"I thought you were the anti-socialist. The government -- worse, a supernational government -- telling you where to live based on something that neither you, they, nor anybody else had anything to do with would seem counter to your professed philosophy."

Who said anything about a supernational government? If you're speaking of the UN, I made no mention of them in the previous post. I was simply talking about the US honoring the treaties it continously broke with the indigenous peoples on this landmass. I didn't realize that having the US honor its treaties, was somehow socialism.

Quote :

"Still, though, it's good to know that your values have limits, and that you're willing to abandon them for no better reason than, "Oh, man, this is too hard""

My values/philosophies change and adapt over time as I learn more about history and the world around me. I try not to stay static in my beliefs as I could easily come to find out that said beliefs are misguided and wrong.

7/18/2006 7:18:11 PM

Quote :

"Who said anything about a supernational government? If you're speaking of the UN, I made no mention of them in the previous post. I was simply talking about the US honoring the treaties it continously broke with the indigenous peoples on this landmass."

I believe you're missing the point in a wide arc here.

The only way non-indigenous Americans would leave is if forced, just like the only way Israelis will leave is if forced. If you think the Israelis should be forced out, I can't fathom any good reason why you wouldn't want us forced out.

The treaties are irrelevant at any rate. It was similar agreements that created and guaranteed the existence of Israel. Why should we ignore those? We also have strong ties to Israel, codified to at least some extent with treaties, and yet you are screaming from the rooftops for us to break those.

Quote :

"My values/philosophies change and adapt over time as I learn more about history and the world around me."

Now I know you're missing the point. I was pointing out that the only reason you seemed eager to do to Israel what you would not do to the United States is, in your words:

Quote :

"But moving nearly 300 million people would be nearly impossible, as opposed to moving the amount of people in Israel"

So you're a man of your principles unless it is logistically difficult to be. Gotcha.

7/18/2006 8:22:09 PM

Quote :

"Actually they are. Once Osama and his buddies realized that the US was no better than the Soviet Union as far as intervening the ME was concerned, they turned on them. Who could blame them? Noone likes being used. Something the US government and America in general refuses to realize."

This is BS. We have intervened when our national interests were at stake, such as the 1st Gulf War. Remember, Kuwait and the Saudis were our allies and we stood up to defend them against Saddam, which served a dual role with our oil interests.

So it's perfectly fine when Saddam invades other countries? You'd rather have the US sit on the sidelines no matter how important the conflict might be? Ludicrous. This is not how the world works. Every country doesn't keep to itself in this high tech world of ours. Expecting the United States to simply forsake its interests in the name of "minding our own business" is insane because A) the potential devastating economic impact B) it will embolden our enemies C) it will put the United States in a weaker and vulnerable position and D) it IS our business when our national security and interests are at stake.

Quote :

"Lol, it wouldn't be the first time. Still doesn't change the fact that our support of Israel has been an albotross around our neck ever since it began. How many towers must fall before this country realizes that?"

So why did Al Qaeda decide to come after America instead of hated Israel if their hatred squarely based on everything Israel? Our support of Israel is a laundry list of many excuses to hate us and is nothing more than a red herring. If we turn our backs on Israel, then Al Qaeda will be even more demonstrative in obtaining their other goals with regards to the destruction of America. Our most basic of rights is considered a threat to the Al Qaeda/extreme Islamic power structure. Their hate is blind and fanatical. They would just as soon see me dead as they would you, Protostar.

Quote :

"And who is biggest supportor of the UN (money-wise)? And who was the biggest supporter of the creation of Israel?"

The dues that the US pays from time to time is proportional to the amount that this country can give. That doesn't mean that the US necessarily supports the UN because the US and the UN have disagreed plenty of times.

As for the creation of Israel, you'd have to blame the 33 countries that voted to create the current Jewish state. There was a lot of world sympathy for the Jewish people after WWII and the Zionist movement (not salisbury's definition but the true definition which is the creation of a Jewish state in the Middle East) did not start in the US.

Quote :

"What purpose do they serve other than sitting on stolen land, antagonizing the rest of the ME, and a bottomless money pit into which the US throws our taxpayer dollars?"

Stolen land? The land was controlled by the British, and at the recommendation of the United Nations, some of the land was given from the Brits to the Jewish state of Israel. Seems to me that Israel got the land fair and square.

Quote :

"No money should be spent abroad. Last time I checked, I paid taxes to the United States federal government. not some country in Africa. Not some country in Europe. And not Israel. If I wanted to pay taxes to any of those governments, I would move there."

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. It does nothing to change the way our fiscal policy has been used for quite a long time. Sadly, the days of isolationist America are behind us. Your idea does sound nice, like a nice fairy tale before bedtime, but has no basis in today's realistic world.

Quote :

"Why does this matter to me? The US would be taking care of the US just like it should be doing. And other countries could take care of their business in peace. People tending to other people's businesses instead of their own is a huge problem in this world."

So emboldening our enemies by turning our backs on our friends doesn't matter to you? I beg to differ. It has everything to do with the very survival of this nation. It would be nice if every country kept to its own affairs but that isn't going to happen, not in this modern free trade world.

If only Osama had stayed in Saudi Arabia where he belonged instead of sticking his nose into Afghanistan's affairs, and so forth. Your pie in the sky viewpoint goes both ways. Giving the terrorists a pass on this point is nothing more than hypocrisy.

Quote :

"The world's sentiments would then be irrelevant and unjustified, as we would be taking care of our own. I also love it how conservatives are oh so willing to sacrifice our monies/lives for people abroad, but never blink twice about neglecting/oppressing those here at home."

And who are these terribly neglected/oppressed people here at home?

Money/use of force is being used to protect this country from further attacks. The same can be said for our support of Israel.

Quote :

"How can you support basic human freedoms when you support dictators who violate said freedoms? Hyprocrite much?"

Putting our national interests first has always been the top priority, as it was during the Cold War. And it's in our national interest since the collapse of the Soviet Union to support 1st and foremost democracy abroad. There was a time for containment and now it's a time for democratization.

Quote :

"And yet he was our ally during WWII."

Politics, espeically in the realm of foreign policy, makes for strange bedfellows. The nazis were considered a bigger threat than the communists, so we sided with the reds. Sometimes you have to compromise in order to obtain a more important goal.

Quote :

"Corporations don't have to vote. They spend billions each year on lobbying efforts on Congress. Why do you think they are doing this, for shits and giggles? No, they are trying (and in most cases suceeding) to get laws passed in their favor. Votes mean very little, its who has the most money who wins."

Then its your duty to be an informed voter. Who's to say that the interests of corporations do not mirror those of the American people? Lots of average everyday folks work for corporations or those that depend on them. Without corporate America, this country would be nothing. It's our economic prowess and ingenuity that made this country what it is today. Turning on the backbone of our economy is just as suicidal as ignoring our national interests abroad.

As for the most money = wins, that's not always the case. Bigger spenders lose elections all the time.

Quote :

"Like I said, the US government created the terrorists we are facing today. I say we fix this by drastically altering our foreign policy and then cleaning shop in Washington (on BOTH sides)."

Islamic fascism has created the terrorists that we are facing today. Again, forsaking our interests is suicidal.

Quote :

"BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. And the US gives the more and more ammo all the time when we have our soldiers over there raping 15 year old girls and executing entire families. When we support a nation whose foundation rests on stolen landi, we give them ammunition. I don't blame them for spreading hate and anger towards the US and Israel. Wouldn't you hate a nation that constantly meddles in your affairs?"

Yes, and unlike the terrorists who rape and kill and execute, we actually prosecute our violators. If you have been paying attention, you would know that our government does not tolerate the actions of a handful of scum that have sullied their uniform and disgraced their country.

When the affairs of another nation impact the affairs of the United States, then the US has every right to intervene for the sake of its security and interests. Maybe if these other countries didn't include the United States in their affairs then we wouldn't have to "meddle," as you put it.

Quote :

"Not really. I'm outlining the causes for this deadly behavior and the solutions to them. "

Keep on clicking your red shoes, Dorothy, maybe you'll wind up in Kansas one day...



[Edited on July 18, 2006 at 10:01 PM. Reason : ]

7/18/2006 9:38:00 PM

Quote :

"I really don't care what the rest of the world thinks about the United States. Most of the rest of the world is little more than a dung heap and run by your typical run of the mill socialists who use their governments to oppress their people and line their pockets. "

since when was africa the rest of the world?

7/19/2006 11:07:09 PM

The bottom line is this: we can expect little help from the rest of the world more than likely, and we will have to act soon to help israel disarm these terrorists. the attacks on lebanon and areas suspected of hiding terrorists from hezbolla must continue. pretty much everything about this has been summed up by the obvious conservatives (or REALISTS) in this thread.

did anyone else catch how france is once again attempting to stop something that might harm their interest in the region? when will they give it up and realize that they are a Socialist, former empire and have been for a LONG time.

7/19/2006 11:14:18 PM