Part I

Quote :

"stategrad100 Veteran 126 Posts user info edit post JCASHFAN, How are you on TWW in Iraq? Are they not censoring what you post? 7/31/2006 4:38:30 AM "

There are two parts to this answer. First, have been on mid-tour leave for the past two weeks (and the next 6 hours, currently in the ATL airport), so it wasn't an issue at all here. You'll know when I'm posting from Iraq because my post times will be 3am (11am Iraq time) or whatnot when most of you are asleep. Second, no they do not censor what I type. Yes TWW and other sites are blocked at times on Government computers (for bandwith, as much as anything else, and thus not around the clock) but the Iraqi run internet cafes as well as what is known as SPAWAR connections are not censored (except for porn). Some places will shut down all outgoing internet traffic immediately after a significant event, (the whole names witheld until family notification thing), but that is usually 24 hours at most. In that sense, it is really no different than a normal workplace.

Part II

Quote :

"0EPII1 All American 12502 Posts user info edit post Quote : "Finally, your perspective on the world changes drastically when you realize that the IED that just blew up 10 feet from your truck was no accident, and that someone, who you have never met, hates you so badly that he wants you dead." Ummm, maybe, just maybe, because you are a foreign soldier invading his country? OMG HOW CAN SOMEONE HATE ME SO BADLY... I AM GOING TO CRY... I AM ONLY HERE TO HELP HIM... AND I NEVER EVEN MET HIM... 7/31/2006 5:35:56 AM "

OEP, do not take me for some naive little do-gooder blindly stumbling my way through the desert surprised at my reception. While no expert on Iraq, I have read a decent amount on Arab cuture and am fully cognizant of how we are viewed by a wide spectrum of Iraqis. Quite frankly, I respect the insurgents for their ingenuity and zeal (if not their principles) and would likely be one of them were I a native born Iraqi. That being said, understanding the theory of why someone might hate you (justifiable or not) changes nothing about the impact of that kind of event. Your weak sarcasm shows more about your ignorant assumptions about me than anything else.

[Edited on July 31, 2006 at 1:00 PM. Reason : .]

7/31/2006 12:59:36 PM

Quote :

"Our troops don't even have the right to free speech, they are told to censor what they say to the media."

Well no shit. Is it not obvious to you why this is the case?

Quote :

"It has also been investigated that a lot of people in the armed forces are recruited despite the fact that they never graduated from college, have severe drug and alcohol abuse histories, as well as criminals backgrounds."

well, first of all, it's not like you're the scum of society because you never graduated from COLLEGE.

in addition, if you have much of a drug or alcohol USAGE history, much less ABUSE history, it will make it tough for you to get into the military, and impossible to do it as an officer (at least in the Marines, if you've done anything more than smoke pot a few times).

Quote :

"People in our armed forces get a kick out of killing people, disrespect locals as well as their culture, and not to mention the most recent case of a soldier who helped kill a family so he could rape their daughter."

Well, on that first point, you're right. I didn't sign up for college money. I didn't sign up to see the world. I didn't sign up to learn some skill that I could use in the civilian world.

I signed up to kill people who have it coming to them. I signed up pre-Sept 11...the only things on the horizon were Bosnia and Africa (Rwanda/Sudan). At the time, we were mostly concerned with stopping genocides, and the approach I favored (and still do) is killing the people who are doing it. A second concern was also providing aid in Somalia. I remember talking to a Marine SSgt (supply man) who said that was by far the most rewarding thing he'd done in his career (both giving food and water to those in need and buttstroking those who were trying to strongarm supplies from others. he said that he went home with blood on the stock of his rifle pretty much every day for that reason)

Of course, there are a lot of shitheads in Iraq and Afghanistan who need to be killed, too, so regardless of whether or not we should be in either place and how the plans have been implemented, I'm still all about blowing up people who are trying to blow up innocents.

so yes, in that respect, a lot of us "get a kick out of killing people."

Quote :

"unfortunately, there are too many bad apples that have set poor examples for others, and their poor decision are exposed. If only people could see the good things that Americans do, instead of the bad, but our media is set on making everything look horrible."

I don't disagree with any of this, but I work with sailors, airmen, and Marines every day (no soldiers), and on the whole, they are remarkably impressive. Yes, 19 year old males--particularly not college educated ones--do dumb things, but for their demographic, on the whole, they are incredible.

Quote :

"The only group threatening any of my freedoms in recent memory is the United States' Congress."

Yeah, Congress is a disgrace.

Quote :

"ANYONE who has worked extensively with Soldiers will know that your average E-4 on the ground, be he an Army Specialist, a Marine Lance Corporal is neither a dogmatic, simplistic, baby killing rapist nor a blind patriot eager to give up his life to defend ourselves from the terrorist horde. He is generally a realist, who may or may not understand how we got into Iraq (do any of us really beyond hyperactive conspiracy theorists?) nor is he particularly excited about being there, but for whatever reason, he chose the military and is going to do his job, because that is the right thing to do. He does not enjoy killing, but will do it when he has to (and only a small percent will ever have to) and may or may not feel remorse. It does not mean he does not care about human life, but he will do what he has to do in order to protect the man to his left and his right. They are the real reasons he fights, not politics. He is not there to make political decisions or to justify a particular party's platform; he is there to execute the LAWFUL orders of his superiors. That being said, as Soldiers they AND THEIR LEADERSHIP must also be held up to the harsh light of scrutiny and disciplined accordingly when they exceed their charge and commit acts inconsistent with the values of professional warriors and the citizens of the United States who they represent. Many may disagree with the concept of military force, I respect your beliefs if they are passionately held and well thought out. Many may disagree with the use of military force in this particular engagement; speak your mind for that is what this country is all about. However, do NOT do the Marines, Sailors, Airmen, and Soldiers . . . MY Soldiers, the disrespect of attempting to use them as a political football. They know the realities of life and death far more than many of you ever do and for that much, they deserve that respect, not as two dimensional projections of your personal feelings about politics, but as flawed human beings (as we all are) doing a difficult job to the best of their abilities."

Well said on all accounts.

with the addition that I truly believe that a fair number of combat-MOS Marines truly enjoy killing certain people in certain circumstances.

Quote :

"your argument fails right here. just becuase it is currently lawful does not make it right."

i don't see how it fails.

Quote :

"sounds like youre the one invoking politics. last i checked, president bush uses the troops as political background/stagery just about every week."

where did he say anything about President Bush or even his own personal thoughts about our foreign policy?

Quote :

"Most americans agree that the war was a mistake. Oh and the soldier who doesnt know why they are killing is gonna be judged very harshly by his Christian God."

his entire point is that most soldiers/Marines are not mindless, killing robots. you aren't giving them enough credit.

they're not all macro level foreign policy experts, but on a micro level, they're a lot sharper than you think.

Quote :

"we also agree there are people in iraq who dont understand why we are there, aka, people who just like to kill."

re: He is generally a realist, who may or may not understand how we got into Iraq

That's what I was just getting at--LCpl Jones may not be up to the task of being a foreign policy advisor, but the odds are pretty damned good that (to use the example of a young Marine i just read about who was recently killed in Iraq) he's proud when he makes a difficult shot to kill an insurgent who's holding a gun to a child's head, using him as a human shield.

7/31/2006 1:07:04 PM

gg

7/31/2006 1:13:25 PM

Quote :

"I truly believe that a fair number of combat-MOS Marines truly enjoy killing certain people in certain circumstances."

told ya

Quote :

"i don't see how it fails."

Then ill be more clear. Actions are not right becuase they are lawful, they are right, becuase they are right, which includes actions both lawful and unlawful.

Quote :

"where did he say anything about President Bush or even his own personal thoughts about our foreign policy?"

he said people are using the troops as political football. and bush does.

Quote :

"his entire point is that most soldiers/Marines are not mindless, killing robots. you aren't giving them enough credit."

you missed my entire point. unless you fully understand why you are killing someone, youre doing something morally wrong. if you were given false reasons to kill someone AND you KNOW those reasons are false yet you chose to deny recognition of those reasons, you are doing something morally wrong.

[Edited on July 31, 2006 at 2:42 PM. Reason : 24]

7/31/2006 2:41:35 PM

^In most combat encounters involving American troops, much like police officers, there are rules of engagement that usually specify a level of threat to the military unit or individual. In most cases this means waiting to get fired upon before returning punishment. If I am being shot at I'll be damned if I don't "fully understand" why I am killing the bastard. You seem to forget that these idiots are on the offensive.

[Edited on July 31, 2006 at 3:18 PM. Reason : .]

7/31/2006 3:17:45 PM

Quote :

"You seem to forget that these idiots are on the offensive."

right so if another country invades the US, and drives their armed vehicles down your street, when you fire on them, YOU ARE ON THE OFFENSIVE? was that suppose to be a joke?

7/31/2006 7:45:17 PM

Quote :

"they are right, becuase they are right"

hahah we're not even going down that road.

7/31/2006 7:56:29 PM

while your point is quite arguable, that's not what he's getting at.

he's saying that you don't have to be a great philosopher to justify shooting someone who shot at you first.

again, micro, not macro.

7/31/2006 7:57:05 PM

By invading Iraq, we've shot first.

7/31/2006 7:58:38 PM

Micro kicks ass. I find it simplifies my life tremendously. No homo. You should all try it.

7/31/2006 8:06:40 PM

dear people we pay you to fight wars
gg for fighting wars

now... where is my pat on the back for designing industrial hvac systems

7/31/2006 8:13:25 PM

JCASHFAN, I think theDuke866 outranks you

8/1/2006 12:14:00 AM

Do y'all thank miners too?

8/1/2006 12:51:52 AM

I just thanked one

8/1/2006 12:54:01 AM

Quote :

"By invading Iraq, we've shot first."

you are either too stupid to understand or are else unwilling to respond to my point.

[Edited on August 1, 2006 at 1:36 AM. Reason : ^^^nah, looks like he's a Capt to me. I pin on 1st Lt at the end of this month.]

8/1/2006 1:35:13 AM

yea sadam was a real threat with his dirt pile and army that we tore thru in 14 days.

[Edited on August 1, 2006 at 9:13 AM. Reason : 234]

8/1/2006 9:10:29 AM

well, if you think he was weak then take a look at the Iraqi civilians he brutalized. That's who he was the biggest threat to. In a global sense he was also a major threat as a harborer and aide to the cowards that ran planes into our shit.

8/1/2006 9:16:48 AM

Quote :

"Bombings and shootings across Iraq killed at least 58 people today"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1834982,00.html

Yes becuase our actions prevented brutal violence in iraq.

8/1/2006 12:08:24 PM

You're right.

Before we showed up the Sunnis and Shiites held hands and sang while the Kurds smacked a tamborine, all this while the Turks and Assyrians were giggling while they play-wrestled in milk and honey.

Then we whispered evils in their ears that got them thinking, "suicide bombers are the coolest"

Get real.

Iraq was a perfect storm of age-old civilizations all claiming to be holier than the others long before we ever got there and violence was rampant, but we didn't care then because the media didn't care then. Now since there is a domestic political agenda at stake, the media bombard us daily with mass number of casualties.

Saddam Hussein was an equal opportunity murderer. What made him worse--or better depending on how you look at it--than Hitler was that he had no prejudice in who he killed, his own people included. Those he didn't kill, he kept in constant fear to maintain his lordship.

So, now these morons are going to keep killing each other until their leaders convince them that the new Iraqi government will work under compromise.

8/1/2006 12:57:36 PM

Quote :

"What made him worse--or better depending on how you look at it--than Hitler"

yeah.....

i enjoy knowing that those I argue against cant go 3 posts without invoking hitler

8/1/2006 1:12:56 PM

your last comment proves two things:

1) Nothing--I haven't used Hitler in any other post that I can ever remember.

2) You are unable to respond with any level of substance so you once again try to attack the most trivial piece of my post.

[Edited on August 1, 2006 at 1:24 PM. Reason : other...dont be a smart ass]

8/1/2006 1:20:13 PM

perhaps reading your own words will jog your memory

...but i suppose that something that hitler would say

8/1/2006 1:22:55 PM

as long as we are going to be petty with forgetting to type words...

you forgot 'is'

that 'is' something that hitler would say

8/1/2006 1:28:36 PM

hitler told me youd say that

8/1/2006 1:29:09 PM

Come on man, don't completely throw away the legitimacy of all your posts in this thread by stooping down to that level. Compose a worthy comment that counters the statement I made. Otherwise, everyone here will just think you got outdone. Isn't that the foundation of debate?

8/1/2006 1:32:18 PM

To be honest, I listen to the senior officer in the room. JCASHFAN is a captain, so he must know a thing or two about the military.

If you want to agonize over the minutiae of battlefield stresses and polity, definitely take some time to read Jarhead .

The book includes many segments that were either too complicated or inappropriate to place in film, and the entire book has the feel of the exact dialectic that is taking place in this topic. It's definitely an eye-opener.

[Edited on August 1, 2006 at 2:21 PM. Reason : spelling]

8/1/2006 2:20:05 PM

First off: There is no rank on TWW. A well made point is a well made point and vice versa.

Second: I don't want to get drawn down into an endless discussion of politics. I don't intend to make my opinion of the war in Iraq known on TWW. Find me in 2 1/2 months when I get back if you're really interested.

Last post for this thread: Without rehashing too much of what I said before . . . Soldiers and Marines, to survive, must act swiftly and violently based on what they perceive is the threat. That is what they are trained for. They do not have the luxury of hashing out the moral and political implications of their actions on a college bulletin board before they squeeze the trigger. As long as we deem it necessary to maintain a standing armed forces, we will have to have men and women who subject their personal desires to the (hopefully) collective wisdom of the government which controls them. This does not make them two dimensional mindless automatons. All I ask is that you treat them as the flawed but human beings that they are and realize that it is YOUR responsibility as citizens of the United States to remain politically and socially engaged in the system that sends them into harms way. Do not take what this country is for granted. For all its flaws, the United States and the Enlightenment tradition out of which it grew run counter to almost the entire history of humankind. It is the presence of our Armed Services (deployed or not, misused or not) that secures the rights and liberties of this incredibly fragile experiment we call the United States not the goodwill of those beyond our borders.

[Edited on August 1, 2006 at 4:53 PM. Reason : .]

8/1/2006 4:49:28 PM

Quote :

"As long as we deem it necessary to maintain a standing armed forces, we will have to have men and women who subject their personal desires to the (hopefully) collective wisdom of the government which controls them."

And when that collective wisdom is wrong, those troops go to hell for being killers. If youre going to cede your morality to authority and not your own reason, you get to take responsibility for someone else's mistakes. And any sensible person knows iraq was a mistake.

8/1/2006 4:53:08 PM

I'll stick with what the Captain has to say.

P.S. I think rank and well-made points are entirely mutually exclusive, and I don't mean just on TWW.

[Edited on August 1, 2006 at 5:00 PM. Reason : ]

8/1/2006 4:58:46 PM

Some people just like to be told what to believe.

8/1/2006 5:00:52 PM

Some people just believe they like to be told.

8/1/2006 5:03:28 PM

^^^^ Are you saying Yehya Hassan isnt a sensible person?

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/12/14/sprj.irq.main/index.html

8/1/2006 5:07:01 PM

are you?

8/1/2006 5:11:19 PM

Quote :

"If youre going to cede your morality to authority and not your own reason, you get to take responsibility for someone else's mistakes. And any sensible person knows iraq was a mistake."

so let me get this straight

you're advocating the military (collectively and/or its members) tossing the will of the U.S. Government aside and doing as they see fit?

8/1/2006 11:40:16 PM

My God, in that scenario, soldiers would only fight in wars they believed were just? What a world....

8/1/2006 11:44:43 PM

my God, in that scenario, our country would forfeit civil control of its military.

8/1/2006 11:46:41 PM

No there will always be some people who will believe anything the governemnt tells them.

Bush didnt do shit and cheney dodged the draft all together on five seperate occasions during vietnam -- our fearless leaders seem to not give two shits about the government's demands.

8/1/2006 11:54:19 PM

which is completely irrelevent to the point that i just made

8/2/2006 12:00:39 AM

Josh8315 - I have to compliment you on restating Kant's Democratic Peace Theory.

Of course this being the theory that spreading democracy will lead to peace due to "soldiers having the vote," directly or indirectly, as far as justifying a war is concerned.

On the other hand we have the more centrist view represented by a counter-argument almost reminiscent of something of Hobbes coming from theDuke866 regarding civil control of the military...the order and stability preventing a civil decay is almost most important.

I have bad news, gents, this very argument has raged for hundreds of years and probably won't be resolved any time soon

8/2/2006 12:03:36 AM

Quote :

"Josh8315 - I have to compliment you on restating Kant's Democratic Peace Theory."

ive never read it. this all seems self-evident to me.

8/2/2006 12:05:07 AM