People have a hard time being objective when a white player is involved and thats all there is to it.


Jason Kidd was a better PG in his prime than Steve Nash. That is absolutely inarguable. Jason Kidd rarely got any attention as an MVP candidate.


Wait a second. Kobe scored SIXTY and they won by two and you're trying to tell me that without Kobe they would have won anyway? Are you kidding? Without Kobe they probably lose that game by ~20 points.

Smush Parker wasn't even a free agent he was on fucking waivers. The pre-Lebron Cleveland Cavs (i.e. the worst team in the league) outright WAIVED him. I mean give me a break.

Luke Walton wasn't what you call "sought after" in the draft.

Kwame Brown was dismissed from a team that drafted him #1 OVERALL in the NBA draft. Do you know how bad you have to be to be dismissed from a team who's other options at Center are Brendan Haywood and Etan Thomas?

Odom is a solid player but he's inconsistent and has never been a winner anywhere he's been because of his less than stellar effort.

Who exactly are you referring to as a good player on the Lakers? Sasha Vujacic???

3/23/2007 1:21:10 PM

comparing kobe to vick is obsurd

3/23/2007 1:22:23 PM

I wrote:

Quote :

"Kobe is becoming the Vick of the NBA on this board. When they win, its Kobe. When they lose, its the rest of the team. "

You guys responded:

Quote :

"holler back when Vick scores the 2nd most points in a single game in league history or whatever equivalent stat you want to use"

and

Quote :

"comparing kobe to vick is obsurd"

Do you guys even read before you post? At what point did I even discuss stats?

3/23/2007 3:28:48 PM

without Kobe, the Lakers are at the top of the lottery

he is a legit MVP front-runner

3/23/2007 3:34:00 PM

^^i was simply pointing out how that statement didnt specifically apply to my views cause I personally think Vick is a great athlete and not a great passing quarterback...I think Kobe is a great basketball player, maybe the best in the league, and not a great rape-getter-away-wither

Kobe >>>>>>>>>>> Vick (when comparing them as players in their own individual sport)

3/23/2007 3:45:25 PM

^I don't disagree with any of that. My whole point is that scoring 60 doesn't necessarily mean he's making the team better. If he scored 60 to knock the Mavs out of the playoffs, then he's the MVP. But scoring 60 and only beating the Grizzlies by 2 when they should win by 20 isn't as impressive.

[Edited on March 23, 2007 at 3:56 PM. Reason : ^]

[Edited on March 23, 2007 at 3:57 PM. Reason : I'm still impressed.]

3/23/2007 3:56:08 PM

Let's not forget the fact that Steve Nash does nothing on the defensive end of the floor. If you wanna compare stats, don't even include Steve Nash's scoring because anytime he's guarding a competent scorer, it's a mismatch and the other guy goes off so his scoring essentially just breaks even. He also can't rebound worth a shit, when is the last time he had a triple double? Jason Kidd has had 10 this season and you want to tell me Steve Nash is far and away the best point guard in the league and somehow deserving of the MVP? What a joke.

Kobe, on the other hand, is well known for wanting to go at the opposing teams best scorer and very often shuts them down. I remember that game against the Jazz where Kobe scored 30 points in the 3rd quarter while simultaneously holding Andre Kirilenko to 0 points, a guy who is well known for being a mismatch against anyone that defends him. Steve Nash could never do that. Kobe is also a much better rebounder, especially in the paint.

Look, I like Steve Nash, he's a fun player to watch and the Suns wouldn't be half as awesome without him, but this MVP shit has got to stop. It should be a 2-man race between Dirk and Kobe (LeBron sucked for too long a stretch this season to be considered).

3/23/2007 3:57:16 PM

Kobe is the M.O.P. for sure

3/23/2007 4:04:42 PM

I'm not blowing nash either. But he can shoot and Kidd can't.

A couple things to add:
1) Being on a contender gives you the nod, imo (Nash, Dirk)
2) Not being a rapist of white women and elbower of white guys helps.

3/23/2007 4:05:18 PM

3/23/2007 4:14:09 PM

Quote :

"Let's not forget the fact that Steve Nash does nothing on the defensive end of the floor. If you wanna compare stats, don't even include Steve Nash's scoring because anytime he's guarding a competent scorer, it's a mismatch and the other guy goes off so his scoring essentially just breaks even. He also can't rebound worth a shit, when is the last time he had a triple double? Jason Kidd has had 10 this season and you want to tell me Steve Nash is far and away the best point guard in the league and somehow deserving of the MVP? What a joke. Kobe, on the other hand, is well known for wanting to go at the opposing teams best scorer and very often shuts them down. I remember that game against the Jazz where Kobe scored 30 points in the 3rd quarter while simultaneously holding Andre Kirilenko to 0 points, a guy who is well known for being a mismatch against anyone that defends him. Steve Nash could never do that. Kobe is also a much better rebounder, especially in the paint. Look, I like Steve Nash, he's a fun player to watch and the Suns wouldn't be half as awesome without him, but this MVP shit has got to stop. It should be a 2-man race between Dirk and Kobe (LeBron sucked for too long a stretch this season to be considered)."

This post is 100% on the money. He's just not as much of a dickhead as I am so no one is going to take issue with it.

It's refreshing to see someone else understands basketball.

3/23/2007 4:47:45 PM

Quote :

"It's refreshing to see someone else understands basketball."

But certainly not basketball awards or any team awards in competitive sports. hesimans, MVPs, Naismith awards all go to great players on great teams, end of story

3/23/2007 5:08:34 PM

Jason Kidd was better in his prime than Steve Nash...Kidd was an mvp candidate when Duncan won (2001, I believe). Jason Kidd is one of the best pgs ever. He can guard three positions on the floor and has led his team in rebounding.

BUT, Nash is somehow underrated on defense. He's not a good defender, but he's an awesome team defender and isn' near as bad in isolation situations as many would have you believe. Nash is one of the best shooters in the league, which doesn't quite make up for his defense or rebounding, but it does make him much more valuable on the offensive end than Kidd.

If Nash deserved the award the last two years, then he certainly does this year. But I think the only reason he won the last two years is because he's short white. Not because people are racist.....people root for the underdog

3/23/2007 6:33:59 PM

^^^ orrrrrrrrrrr maybe it's that your credibility took a torpedo to the grill when you defended Vick so adamantly.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you on this subject and many others, but the Vick fiasco was/is kinda backbreaking.

3/23/2007 7:19:30 PM

Quote :

"Kobe is becoming the Vick of the NBA on this board. When they win, its Kobe. When they lose, its the rest of the team."

If a guy scores half his team's points, then, um... who am I supposed to give credit to?

Meanwhile the Falcons can win a 9-6 field goal showdown and it's Vick this, that, and the third.

3/23/2007 7:23:47 PM

27 pts at the half.

3/23/2007 8:21:32 PM

10 more in the first 4 min...37 now

3/23/2007 8:40:39 PM

and 50 again

3/23/2007 9:49:34 PM

it's official, he's an even bigger ballhog than we ever thought

3/23/2007 10:13:25 PM

i dont care, nobody can win it three times in a row. Nash should not win it. that is some bull shit. jordan didnt even win it three times. even if talent level is down, no one should win it three times, let alone three times in row.

3/23/2007 10:57:25 PM

Quote :

"nobody can win it three times in a row."

3/23/2007 11:50:03 PM

So, what you peeps are smackin is...nash shouldn't win it solely for the reason that he has won it twice already? nothing else? that's still saying that nash is the best inadvertently, if you agree or not.

3/23/2007 11:57:35 PM

No, Nash shouldn't win it because he is still not the best.

He's playing better than he has the past two years, but he didn't deserve it those years either.

[Edited on March 24, 2007 at 12:03 AM. Reason : Plus he's Canadian. F Canada!]

3/24/2007 12:03:32 AM

Nash is the best. Just b/c you can score 50+ pts does not mean you are the best. Especially when your team isn't winning. Or even contenders for that matter. Stop your whinning. Learn something about sports for a change.

Quote :

"he didn't deserve it those years either."

well...me and the people who distributed the trophy disagreed with you. Fact.


2-love against Nash haters!


[Edited on March 24, 2007 at 12:13 AM. Reason : /]

3/24/2007 12:08:56 AM

They ARE winning when he scores 50. the the past 4 games Kobe has scored 50 (something only he and Wilt Chamberlain have ever done), and they have won all 4.

And MVP awards don't always go to the best or most deserving player, unless you think Jason White was the best football player in college the year he won it.

3/24/2007 12:16:24 AM

Im sorry, beating teams like Memphis, portland, and the timberwolves do NOT impress me. Those are some of the worst teams in the league. You want to make your argument based on that then be my guest.

We (the suns) beat the best. Our MVP wins the big names. Come again. It's obvious that you cant even begin to compare a Dallas Mav victory over a timberwolves victory in L.A.

[Edited on March 24, 2007 at 12:29 AM. Reason : .]

3/24/2007 12:25:43 AM

Oh, you are a suns fan.

Never mind then, this is a pointless argument.

(like arguing with Earl always is)

3/24/2007 12:28:00 AM

No, it's because you KNOW you have nothing. Your argument is moot. Fact.

your best argument consist of Kobe making 50 pts against the leagues worst teams. And you think that merits MVP?!??!!

[Edited on March 24, 2007 at 12:32 AM. Reason : .]

3/24/2007 12:30:25 AM

look, you're Earl, everyone knows that nothing anyone says or does can prove a point to you.

You just keep thinking Nash is great because he can somehow pass the ball to his incredibly gifted scorers.

And I will keep thinking Kobe is great because he can will his borderline horizon league caliber players to victory on his back.

And you can come back and tell me about how you "victored" over me when they get the MVP wrong again.

3/24/2007 12:37:54 AM

Quote :

"look, you're Earl, everyone knows that nothing anyone says or does can prove a point to you. "

But you don't even HAVE a point. And the fact that someone can score 50pts over a sorry team does not merit a MVP. You lose once again. Nice way to throw in the towell tho. I like how you judge me when you have nothing.

3/24/2007 12:46:59 AM

I've always been sick of everyone praising Kobe for having a lot of points, because anybody can score 50 when they take 80 shots, no matter what their FG% is. But I've actually gotta give him credit this time around. In these last 4 games he's hit right around half his shots, none of the 13 for 39 I'm used to seeing from him.

But it still doesn't take away from the fact that he's a thug for throwing elbows.

3/24/2007 12:53:51 AM

Stop taking credit away from Kobe because they were "sorry teams" It isn't like college, the bad teams aren't that inferior. the gap between good and bad nba teams is slim. What he is doing is fucking historic, if you don't see that, you're an idiot

Nash doesn't have "gifted" scorers on his team. Marion, raja bell, james jones, kurt thomas and even amare are not going to create on their own. they are very far from gift scorers I'm not saying these players aren't good, but the suns live and die with the mvp.

that being said, Dirk will win it this year, even though Kobe deserves it

3/24/2007 1:32:56 AM

I'm not going to give him credit then, because they are "sorry teams". And taking a average of 28 shots a game is historic!!!

Quote :

"the bad teams aren't that inferior"

Dallas to Minnesota is like...

[Edited on March 24, 2007 at 1:40 AM. Reason : .]

3/24/2007 1:38:39 AM

I don't agree with the argument of "If Nash won it the past 2 years, then he deserves it this year."

The MVP is given on a yearly basis so the decision should be based on the current year alone.

Its comparative to the other players in This year.

3/24/2007 2:25:10 AM

Regardless Nash should not win the MVP because he is Canadian, They play hokey

3/24/2007 2:34:06 AM

Year to year is right. This year, he's played even better. He's still just as valuable to his team, and *IF* he deserved it those two years, which is arguable. Then he should easily win it this year.

Dallas is to Minnesota as Carolina is to NCSU.

Shooting 28 times and making 17 of them IS impressive and you're the only person in the world that doesnt see four games of 50 or more as historic... Kobe is clearly one of the greatest players to every play the game. He's at the top of his game right now. The NBA has never seen an offensive player so complete. (excluded Wilt)......even MIchael Jordan wasn't as dynamic of a scorer. Only because Kobe is a better long range shooter. Jordan was still a better player. He was a slighty better defender and had stronger leadership skills. But that isn't the point, MJ isn't an MVP candidate this year.

Earl, it is like you're saying that scoring points doesn't impress you.....but scoring points is a big part of how you win (to win=have more points than the other team).......the Lakers are winning when he's shooing 28 times.

3/24/2007 3:02:09 AM

canadian

3/24/2007 3:03:15 AM

Listen, scoring does impress me. But being able to do it when it matters is even BETTER. Being 37-32 does not impress me. Scoring 30+ pts in a loss is nothing too me. He did that against Dallas, phoenix, cleveland,NY.

If he can put up impressive stats (not just scoring) against decent teams, you have an argument. But this "wow, he scored 90 against the bobcats" argument is moot. Scoring is not the only thing that merits MVP. If thats the case then C.Anthony is ahead of Kobe since he is the leagues leading scorer. And every year the leading scorer should get the MVP

Nash profits in every category, and adds impressive "wins" to that resume. People just don't want him to win it due to the fact that he won 2 times in a row. That is the only counter-arguent against Nash. If thats the case I would love to see him win it over and over again, because that shows that the system actually works and is not handing out trophies for the sake of. Take your political unsatisfactories elsewhere.

[Edited on March 24, 2007 at 5:25 AM. Reason : .]

3/24/2007 5:22:40 AM

The basis of my argument isn't that Kobe isn't a great player.

If he deserves to win purely off statistics (ie how many points he averages), then what seperates him statistically so far away from players like Nash(or even Dirk et al)?

3/24/2007 5:58:13 AM

And guess what retards?

You know that season where Wilt Chamberlain averaged 50 points a game from 1961-1962?

Do you know who the MVP was that year.....



Bill Russell.

So, please, STFU. It isn't all about scoring. From historical criteria Nash is just as worthy, actually, probably more so than Kobe.

3/24/2007 6:04:42 AM

^ Bill Russell played good defense though.

Nash does not.

By the way, Kobe is the leading scorer, not Carmelo.

3/24/2007 9:22:52 AM

Heh.

Played good defense? Yea.

But he was the player that held the Celtics dynasty together.

3/24/2007 9:30:59 AM

Are you saying that Nash has created some kind of Suns "Dynasty?"

I would like to see them at least make the finals once before we start calling them that.

3/24/2007 9:32:52 AM

Think about it like this.

Nash = Russell
Kobe = Chamberlain

One is an offensively dominant player who can't be stopped and the other is the player whose team is built around him entirely.

Russell had better talent around him and that was usually why he beat out Chamberlain. However, once Chamberlain got older, joined the Lakers, and became more of a role player he won another championship (Kobe's relationship with Shaq).

Nash has the intangibles of a Russell.

I think that it's gonna take Nash finally winning a championship to legitimize this sort of view. I don't think it will be this year with the Mavs being so dominant but the Suns are consistently good enough to win it some time soon.

P.S. If the Lakers end up in a 7 game series versus the Suns then Kobe would HAVE to score a crapload of points for them to have a chance to win. I understand that. That doesn't mean that Nash's burden is any less great.

And Wilt Chamberlain is probably in my top three favorite players of all time so I have nothing against offense.

3/24/2007 9:53:04 AM

93.3% FT
50.7% FG
51.5% 3pt
56.25 points

if he keeps up anything close to those percentages for the rest of the season, no doubt he's deserving of the mvp.

[Edited on March 24, 2007 at 10:09 AM. Reason : ]

3/24/2007 10:08:31 AM

It's very impressive.

That's for damn sure.

3/24/2007 10:21:33 AM

^^and one of the best records in the league. and I'm telling you his defense isn't THAT bad. If you watch, he is literally a coach on the floor, even on the defensive end.

Kobe is one of the best defenders in the league. He does more than score. Comparing him to Melo is idioic. Melo is a poor defender and actually a weak rebounder for his size. They are similar because they both score lots of points and are very clutch.

I personally am not quite sure who should win he mvp, atleast not yet.... If I was making a prediction, it'd be Dirk. Even though I think he benefits from a team that is MUCH Better than the Suns and Lakers lineup.

3/24/2007 10:37:04 AM

I almost want to say that Marion is more important to the Suns than Nash.

I can't find it, but I'd like to see the Suns record when Marion doesn't play.

3/24/2007 10:39:35 AM

I'd like to see that record too.

Marion is valuable. He never has plays called for him, he usually scores on the break and off the glass. His play on defense it what makes him so valuable. But in the Phx attack, he could be replaced much easier than Nash. They need him to play well to win in the playoffs. But his impact on their wins and losses is probably not near as dramatic as Nash.

3/24/2007 11:01:26 AM

No, what you want to see is the suns record without Nash!! Heck, just look at how they're basically lost whenever he goes to the bench.


You know whats funny tho? Kobe just started scoring the numbers like 4 games ago and people are now making the MVP case!! Where has he been all season long? It's funny that he shows up against the worst teams in the league.

[Edited on March 24, 2007 at 11:12 AM. Reason : .]

3/24/2007 11:09:03 AM