You are quick to judge what they don't and do have...I've lived in countries that don't have all the freedoms of the US and you know what? Life was still just as great and I was still free to call bush a moron.

I was free to practice my religion, free to live my life just as I am here although a little better since we had no taxes. Do I care if I can't call the ruler a moron? no, because they weren't, and even if they were, it still wouldn't matter.

[Edited on September 25, 2007 at 12:46 PM. Reason : .]

9/25/2007 12:44:26 PM

wow, you were free to call bush a moron when you were living in other countries, what a great story

were you ever a student in iran and then the president shut down the university? that sounds like it would be great...hey have you ever wanted to go to a soccer game in iran with your wife only to find out that...women arent allowed at sporting events...oh well sucks for her...at least you can call bush a moron!

9/25/2007 12:48:04 PM

Quote :

"were you ever a student in iran and then the president shut down the university?"

source??

Quote :

"women arent allowed at sporting events"

From my basic understanding of Islamic culture many men there consider this a good thing. who are we to delegate or judge another cultures society.

[Edited on September 25, 2007 at 12:54 PM. Reason : l]

9/25/2007 12:54:19 PM

Quote :

"were you ever a student in iran and then the president shut down the university? that sounds like it would be great...hey have you ever wanted to go to a soccer game in iran with your wife only to find out that...women arent allowed at sporting events...oh well sucks for her...at least you can call bush a moron!"

This isn't just the government, this is a religious thing...completely different, you don't understand it because A) you are atheist? (i'm assuming) B) you live in the US

yes it sucks for women, but thats at the route of their religion. Some islamic countries chose to follow it right down to the dotted i's and crossed t's and others are more open minded like the West.

9/25/2007 12:57:04 PM

Quote :

"who are we to delegate or judge another cultures society."

you sure do seem to care a lot about the rest of the world's perspective on the United States to not care one bit that women are treated like shit in Iran

Quote :

"source??"

Quote :

"In 2006, the Ahmadinejad government reportedly forced numerous Iranian scientists and University professors to resign or to retire. It has been referred to as "second cultural revolution" after the Islamic Cultural Revolution earlier.[65][66] The policy has been said to replace old professors with younger ones.[67] Some university professors received letters indicating their early retirement unexpectedly.[68] In November 2006, 53 university professors had to retire from Iran University of Science and Technology.[69]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadinejad

^i'm not an atheist

[Edited on September 25, 2007 at 12:58 PM. Reason : .]

9/25/2007 12:58:05 PM

Quote :

"you sure do seem to care a lot about the rest of the world's perspective on the United States to not care one bit that women are treated like shit in Iran"

Are you not free to practice your religion anyway you chose in the United States? Just because you chose to be godless doesn't give you the right to dictate that way of life on everyone else.

9/25/2007 1:00:18 PM

Quote :

"You can either quote where I've said this or you can just keep making stuff up based on your prejudicial assumptions of my character. "

quote of the day.

9/25/2007 1:01:27 PM

^^then how come you are so qualified to dictate what happens in the US and judge all the US's policies? probably because you're an elitist hypocrite

oh btw, in the united states, females are also allowed to practice any religion they want to...they can also go out in public with more than their eyes and ankles showing...they can do a whole lot of other things that women are denied the right to do in a number of middle eastern countries

[Edited on September 25, 2007 at 1:04 PM. Reason : .]

9/25/2007 1:03:05 PM

I don't dictate anything about the US. I do defend what it stands for even though currently its strayed from that path.

Quote :

"oh btw, in the united states, females are also allowed to practice religion...they can also go out in public with more than their eyes and ankles showing...they can do a whole lot of other things that women are denied the right to do in a number of middle eastern countries"

DUDE how many times do we have to say it! It's their religion! damn man...its no different then Saudi Arabia, probably a little lax compared because ALL women don't have to be covered from head to toe including foreigners.

[Edited on September 25, 2007 at 1:05 PM. Reason : fda]

9/25/2007 1:04:06 PM

Quote :

"They are as much an extension of Iran as the Talaban was an extension of the US during the cold war....but this is based purely on speculation from the US government."

The Taliban was a creation of the Pakistanis and didn't exist until after the Cold War. Thats like saying that communist Vietnam is an extension of the US because of WWII support against the Japanese.

9/25/2007 1:04:15 PM

^^so whats wrong with me defending something crazy like women having basic civil rights in other countries?

you're best defense seems to be "thats their religion"...that is a weak defense...hey how come they blew up people in a marketplace? oh dont worry about that, thats just their religion

[Edited on September 25, 2007 at 1:06 PM. Reason : ^^]

9/25/2007 1:04:33 PM

^^^wrong, the same people that became the Taliban are the same people the United States armed and trained to fight the Soviets. Those people didn't just 'disappear' and in came the Taliban.

^because its not your right to deny a nation its right to practice their religion freely! Who are you to change the works of their prophet?

I don't agree with it but I know enough to respect it.

^thats called terrorism and fanatics. Which i'm sure you already know exist in most religions. They are also not the only people who blow up marketplaces. Thats just piss poor on your part

and religion isn't a poor defense, thats what it is.

[Edited on September 25, 2007 at 1:09 PM. Reason : .]

9/25/2007 1:06:14 PM

Playing Devils Advocate I am sure the average Iranian looks in shock of our loose wild women going around getting drunk in public, spreading their legs to random guys they make at the bar, couples have extramarital affairs, etc

I get the impression that Tree has not been out of the country and thus does not understand the concept that cultures vary across the world.

9/25/2007 1:11:00 PM

Quote :

"because its not your a nation's right to deny a nation its people their right to practice their religion freely!"

There, I fixed it for you.

Quote :

"Playing Devils Advocate I am sure the average Iranian looks in shock of our loose wild women going around getting drunk in public, spreading their legs to random guys they make at the bar, couples have extramarital affairs, etc"

You're absolutely right, except for the fact that from what I've read, there really isn't an "average" Iranian. There is also a fairly strong and growing anti-Islamicist (not anti-Islamic) movement within Iran. The problem is the religious leaders in charge whose power is based on the adherance to a strict Islamic code that many Iranians find disagreeable.

[Edited on September 25, 2007 at 1:13 PM. Reason : .]

9/25/2007 1:11:23 PM

how am i denying any nation the right to do anything? i'm simply pointing out how ass backwards some societies in the middle east are...they're shutting down universities, denying womens and gays rights, etc...and you dont have a problem with that? you love to talk about all the things you hate in the United States...you have no problem doing that...but when I even mention how fucked up things are in Iran you get all defensive and say "its their religion?" WEAK

how come you go on and on and on about how Bush is an idiot for not wanting gay marriage to be legal...on and on and on about how much of an ignorant redneck he is...but Iran's leader says they dont have gays and oh well, thats their religion!


^^i've been to a few continents myself moron

Quote :

"I am sure the average Iranian looks in shock of our loose wild women going around getting drunk in public, spreading their legs to random guys they make at the bar, couples have extramarital affairs, etc "

i'm sure the average Iranian doesnt see that since the government censors it

you guys are ridiculous

[Edited on September 25, 2007 at 1:12 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on September 25, 2007 at 1:14 PM. Reason : .]

9/25/2007 1:11:44 PM

^^^^ Wrong. The US didn't train anyone. They gave weapons and cash to Pakistani intelligence and let them train and arm insurgents as they saw fit. Following the war infighting broke out between competing warlords because of the power vacuum created by the Soviet withdrawal. The Pakistanis wanted to create some sort of order across their border so they organized and armed some Pashtuns and sent them back into Afghanistan.

9/25/2007 1:13:00 PM

This debate is pointless.

Turn on CNN.

Watch how well imposing our values (however right they are) on another culture works.

9/25/2007 1:13:30 PM

This is a complete waste of time...I'm getting back to work.

9/25/2007 1:14:32 PM

more like complete pwnage of you ignorant hypocrites

9/25/2007 1:14:50 PM

^^ I forgot to call you out on this one:

Quote :

"I've lived in countries that don't have all the freedoms of the US and you know what? Life was still just as great and I was still free to call bush a moron."

Because criticizing the United States is soooo controversial in the rest of the world.

[Edited on September 25, 2007 at 1:16 PM. Reason : .]

9/25/2007 1:16:40 PM

^^That was the first time I posted in this thread, so whatever.

But just so you know, you're advocating imperialism.

[Edited on September 25, 2007 at 1:17 PM. Reason : .]

9/25/2007 1:17:31 PM

its funny to see all the people who would normally be preaching about how much the constitution and our rights are the most important thing...how those trump any type of security...how freedom is the most important thing and how people like Bush are so evil for Patriot Act, etc...how people should be free to be gay or straight...to use free speech at universities, etc

but then when a truly evil leader...one who denies the most basic civil rights to his people, let alone being able to freely criticize the leader...one who has no gays...who truly is for censorship...who shuts down univerisities...who censors speech on their television broadcasts, etc...he gets the free pass because we want to hear both sides of the story!

9/25/2007 1:21:54 PM

How in the holy hell is criticizing a foreign head of state the same thing as advocating imperialism?

9/25/2007 1:22:08 PM

Quote :

"but then when a truly evil leader"

before i go, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH WOW! smoke weed much?

9/25/2007 1:25:24 PM

wow, what a great insightful comment

HE'S NOT EVIL, THATS JUST THEIR RELIGION! WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE THEIR SOCIETY!

[Edited on September 25, 2007 at 1:26 PM. Reason : .]

9/25/2007 1:25:46 PM

Quote :

"truly evil leader"

lmao hahahahahahahaha

I prefer the Legion of Doom instead of the Axis of Evil

9/25/2007 1:32:13 PM

Golovko, you sir are the biggest fucking idiot on these boards...please go off yourself

9/25/2007 1:37:42 PM

If the president of Iran is truly such a horrible human being then why doesn't the UN, or America arrest him on the spot and put him on trial for his crimes?

The man (for the most part) seems to be working completely within his legal boundaries in Iran. Sure that shit would be illegal as hell here, but the same is true in Iran. You don't have to like the guy, he's obviously a giant douche, but you do have to respect the fact that he is a world leader of a popularly supported government (how popular is not really of consequence when you elect presidents).

The great thing about America is how tolerant we (apparently) are. We let people say the stupidest shit and don't (usually) throw them in jail. (Educated) Holocaust deniers are regularly jailed in Germany which I think is asanine, but again, it's within that countries legal framework.

If you don't ban people like the PM of Germany from coming to the US and speaking anywhere she wants then I have a huge issue with banning the Iranian President from coming here and speaking. Protest all you want, it's your constitutionally guaranteed right, I just hope it doesn't lead to any change which restricts the freedom of thought or speech in our country.

9/25/2007 1:54:02 PM

Quote :

"If the president of Iran is truly such a horrible human being then why doesn't the UN, or America arrest him on the spot and put him on trial for his crimes?"

The United States doesn't have the jurisdiction and the United Nations is full of horrible human beings.

[Edited on September 25, 2007 at 1:57 PM. Reason : ]]

9/25/2007 1:57:21 PM

Obviously someone missed the part in Lethal Weapon 2 about diplomatic immunity.

9/25/2007 1:59:46 PM

Quote :

"you love to talk about all the things you hate in the United States...you have no problem doing that...but when I even mention how fucked up things are in Iran you get all defensive"

As U.S. citizens, we have a right - no less, a responsibility - to criticize our own government's policies.

Both governments engage is the same malignant policies; both governments should be admonished for it.

9/25/2007 2:03:16 PM

Quote :

"The United States doesn't have the jurisdiction and the United Nations is full of horrible human beings."

This has not stopped the US from acting outside of international law before and if he is so horrible then I doubt there would be very much opposition to his arrest and trial.

9/25/2007 2:07:21 PM

Quote :

"why do yall love to hate our freedom to go to war so much? "

-TreeTwista10

9/25/2007 2:13:00 PM

Quote :

"about diplomatic immunity"

Diplomatic immunity applies unless it is someone from the Legion of Doom Axis of Evil



[Edited on September 25, 2007 at 2:16 PM. Reason : l]

9/25/2007 2:14:37 PM

Quote :

"This has not stopped the US from acting outside of international law before and if he is so horrible then I doubt there would be very much opposition to his arrest and trial."

Trooo(ish). But right now the US has spent all of its "goodwill" capital and doesn't really have the diplomatic ability to pull this off.

As J.K. Galbraith once said, "Politics is the art of choosing between the disastrous and the unpalatable." Arresting AJ would be disastrous right now.

9/25/2007 2:23:17 PM

I agree, and I'm honestly not advocating arresting him (though FNC had several people on that were). My point is the guy is a buffoon and letting him do his thing inside the country (as long as it is legal) is not a huge deal like people are making it. If he decides to go to an open forum and be openly questioned by Americans I say more power to him and the people questioning him, he doesn't have the ayatollah backing him up here. The man made himself look stupid when questioned which, I think, is more of a tool that we can use than what he can.


Look world, Iran doesn't have homosexuals, their president said so.

Look world, he's flip-flopping on the Holocaust and Israel.

Everyone will roll their eyes in unison and theres a minute chance that his idiocy will make it back home and make his already shaky support wane even more.

9/25/2007 2:37:02 PM

Quote :

"I've lived in countries that don't have all the freedoms of the US and you know what? Life was still just as great and I was still free to call bush a moron."

did you call out mubarak the last time you were in egypt? freely? on the street?

how about the last time you were in lebanon (one of the more free spots), did you call out any of the pro-syrian government leaders? freely? on the street?

now tell me how a cindy sheehan type would get dealt with in either of those places.

just because you're able to go with the flow as a heterosexual male and not get hassled, doesn't make it a free environment.

[Edited on September 25, 2007 at 2:43 PM. Reason : *]

9/25/2007 2:41:26 PM

Quote :

"If he decides to go to an open forum and be openly questioned by Americans I say more power to him and the people questioning him, he doesn't have the ayatollah backing him up here."

I get the feeling that he was willing to speak on a college campus in large part because he thought that dislike of Bush would equate to support for himself and he would gain some fans in the US by showing what a cool dude he is [fail].

9/25/2007 3:16:07 PM

Quote :

"DUDE how many times do we have to say it! It's their religion! damn man...its no different then Saudi Arabia, probably a little lax compared because ALL women don't have to be covered from head to toe including foreigners. "

the point you are missing here is regardless if that woman is a hardcore muslim or not, she still has to cover herself in accordance with the hardliners or she risks being stoned to death in the streets.

9/25/2007 3:24:47 PM

Technically woman are not free to expose their breasts on public beaches or anywhere else due to the religious and/or cultural views of politicians in this country.

So while although not as bad as in Islamic theocratic nations woman are still inhibited in our society and must cover up to a certain degree

[Edited on September 25, 2007 at 3:29 PM. Reason : l]

[Edited on September 25, 2007 at 3:29 PM. Reason : ;]

9/25/2007 3:28:57 PM

^

One time I whipped my cock out in bar and they said that if I did it again I would be arrested. FUCK BUSH.

Epilogue:
I whipped it out again later, but I made sure that none of the bouncers were looking.

9/25/2007 3:33:29 PM

Quote :

" who are we to delegate or judge another cultures society. "

Sentencing people to be executed for homosexuality is morally repugnant. I feel safe in judging that to be a barbaric and archaic practice.

9/25/2007 3:41:44 PM

Quote :

" Sentencing people to be executed for homosexuality is morally repugnant. I feel safe in judging that to be a barbaric and archaic practice."

We had federal and state sodomy laws until very recently. There are also several laws in most states banning oral sex and sex toys.

We may not execute people for these things but they are still on the books and actively (and selectively) used.

9/25/2007 3:44:31 PM

Quote :

"We may not execute people for these things but they are still on the books and actively (and selectively) used."

Translation: We might not execute anyone who is homosexual, but we arrest some of them! We're just as bad!

9/25/2007 3:53:57 PM

Way to put words in my mouth.

My point was to show we're not as 'progressive' as many here would put us. We may not be murdering homosexuals (leave that to backwater rednecks to drag them behind their trucks) but we can't say, 'OH MY, YOU TREAT THEM SO BADLY' with impunity.

9/25/2007 3:57:58 PM

you're seriously continuing to compare arresting people for public acts of sodomy with executing every single homosexual they know about? Are you actually serious?

Quote :

"leave that to backwater rednecks to drag them behind their trucks and the government of iran to execute all of them"

[Edited on September 25, 2007 at 4:00 PM. Reason : .]

9/25/2007 3:59:01 PM

Jesus christ do you not have any reading/interpretation skills?

Quote :

"My point was to show we're not as 'progressive' as many here would put us."

Don't even throw that quote in there like I said that either.

You are proving what an idiot you are by refusing to inject ANY thought into what I'm writing.

9/25/2007 4:01:26 PM

no you're proving you're a much bigger idiot by repeating over and over again "well we might not be executing them but we're not perfect either!"

you're severely downplaying the fact that their government executes any homosexual they know of...state sponsored/supported/ordered executions...of any and all homosexuals

and you're comparing that to a few idiot private citizens' hate crime in america?

what do i need to inject into your writing? i already attempted to tell you how completely different it is for somebody to be arrested for public sodomy, or for somebody to be called a 'fag' on the street or something...or even for a few dumbass backwoods rednecks to commit a hate crime...compared to GOVERNMENT ORDERED EXECUTIONS OF ALL HOMOSEXUALS...no comparison

[Edited on September 25, 2007 at 4:06 PM. Reason : ..]

9/25/2007 4:02:52 PM

No, I think the executions are horrible, and I have never stated otherwise. It's just funny that your 'support' of homosexuals only comes in when they're being slaughtered by a regime that you're trying to pump up support for a war with.

9/25/2007 4:06:09 PM

just cause i think gay sex is disgusting (between men) doesnt mean i think the government should execute all of them ...but rather than spend any fraction of time denouncing iran's president and government for that "policy" you'd rather point out how the USA isnt perfect even though we have a number of states where gay marriage is legal, we have openly gay celebrities, etc...somehow we're not perfect even though our government is pretty damn lenient and you'd rather focus on that more than focus on how a lack of separation of church and state in wonderful iran makes it ok for the government to execute all homosexuals

and i'm not trying to pump up support for any war...im trying to point out how fucked up your best buddy ahmenijad is but you're not listening, apparently cause you're a complete idiot

[Edited on September 25, 2007 at 4:10 PM. Reason : .]

9/25/2007 4:09:43 PM