That wouldn't make much difference to me. It's only a matter of whether he responded to a threat or attack.

[Edited on December 5, 2007 at 5:11 PM. Reason : 4]

12/5/2007 5:11:15 PM

yeah jwb plenty of people have a problem with anybody ever getting "vigilante justice" by way of a gun for stealing property and not killing/raping/etc...even if old dude's own house was getting robbed and not his neighbors

12/5/2007 5:13:46 PM

^^^ It's still not clear if they were even in his own yard. This idea doesn't seem to matter under Texas law, but it's relevant to some of the opinions here.

In the 911 call, after he shot the guy, he tells the 911 operator that one guy is down the street and the other guy is "in the front yard over there."

[Edited on December 5, 2007 at 5:14 PM. Reason : ]

12/5/2007 5:13:55 PM

^^i realize that, but i don't think anyone in this thread has specifically come out and said they're against defending yourself if someone busts up in your house.

so i'm confused as to why the situation keeps being framed as if that's what happened

that's all im sayin

12/5/2007 5:16:46 PM

there is plenty of "missing" evidence from the reports linked in this thread where people on both sides of the issue are able to assume what fits their own opinions

12/5/2007 5:18:42 PM

^ yeah, i'm pretty sure I noted the lack of publicly available evidence back on page 1.

12/5/2007 5:23:46 PM

Quote :

"He seemed to want official sanction for confronting the burglars."

Or he wanted to give the police a chance to take care of it, like we're always told the police will. He knew his rights, if he wanted to kill someone he would have just gone out there and shot them.

Quote :

"I say it does exactly that. Otherwise, the distinction between violent and non-violent crimes becomes meaningless."

So if I kidnap you, but don't hurt you, that's not a violent crime?

If I take you hostage in the process of robbing a bank, that's not a violent crime unless I cause you bodily harm?

Is purposefully setting fire to your house not a violent crime as long as you're not home?

What if I shoot your dog?

Quote :

"The right not to be shot, if want to call it that, doesn't depend on any society or laws. It's a natural one."

The right not to have the fruits of your labor stolen from you doesn't depend on any society or laws. It's a natural one.

Quote :

"so burglary should be punishable by death"

If you happen to be unlucky enough yes. By CHOOSING to be a burglar, you are CHOOSING to risk your life so that you may violate someone else's life. Like I said, the occupational hazard of being a thief is surviving long enough to make it to court.

Quote :

"remember, this guy's house wasn't being robbed."

I say it shouldn't matter. If you're justified in using deadly force for yourself, you should be able to use it for others who are otherwise unable to. Crime is crime is crime, and the police are simply citizens paid to enforce the law all the time. It is the duty of the people to uphold the laws of society, especially when the police are unable or unwilling to do so.

12/5/2007 5:30:48 PM

He should be punished for this but not a full sentence though, maybe some psychiatric evaluation and some weekend nights in jail. Like said before we dont want robbers to think they have the green light and no one will defend their stuff due to legal reprucustions. But my opinion on this is that he was stupid to take the lives of two men over property, especially someone elses property when he was told repeatly not to in a explicit manner by 911. The guys an idiot and whoever thinks that it appears he gave warning first or that the robbers walked up to him are being ridiculous. No ones stupid enough to walk up to a shotgun, get real. We'll just have to wait till we get some concrete facts though, but as it is now his case doesn't look good.

Let gets something straight here. I'm not anti-gun or anti-self defense, but I wouldn't want this guy living near me. For example, lets say you have kids and they could even be white for this matter (I'm white by the way). They're playing in the backyard and you're not there at the time. One of the kids throws something over the fence and goes over to retrieve it. You go outside and ask where he is and then all of a sudden you here a loud boom. Of course he wasn't robbing anything but you just lost you son due to some trigger happy buffoon.[/example] Its the act of killing thats I'm against here, he could have shot those burglars in the legs or ass, but no, he wasted them with only a few seconds notice.

12/5/2007 5:42:34 PM

i don't know, i just can't get down with vigilante justice. call me crazy

12/5/2007 5:43:16 PM

I guess criminals have the right to not get shot or beat up for breaking the law unless its by someone wearing a badge. Law abiding citizens have the right to call 911 and pray that the police roll in before the criminals leave with all their valuable right GoldenViper???

12/5/2007 5:49:01 PM

^^ I can, if it's me doing it, but I just can't trust other people

The only solution is to treat everyone as untrustworthy, when it comes to taking other peoples' lives.

^ you pointed out earlier that "burden of proof is on the state b.c you are innocent until proven guilty as it should be." Does this not apply to the criminals as well?

Also, no one is saying criminals have a right not to get shot. It's ridiculous to assume that. People are saying you don't have the right to kill someone (or 2 people even) unless you prove you had a good reason to do it.

[Edited on December 5, 2007 at 5:53 PM. Reason : ]

12/5/2007 5:49:05 PM

I do not think the two guys breaking into a house from the back and walking out front with bags of loot and a 42" HDTV were the moving guys

Lets all forget that these thugs were stealing $1000's in property and from what I have heard would have gotten away had it not been for the neighbor. Let's just cry that two people got shot

[Edited on December 5, 2007 at 5:54 PM. Reason : aa]

12/5/2007 5:53:43 PM

^ well, how do you translate what you think in to a policy that can be implemented legally?

Can I shoot some strangers near my house and claim I saw them stealing stuff and get off? Obviously not. Without an investigation, this is might as well what this guy tells the judge or the cops.

You're letting your emotion get in the way. No one is saying that the criminals should have gotten away or were in the right, at all. They are saying that Horn can't just be let off the hook for killing 2 people for stealing from his neighbor, unless it can be established legally that he didn't in fact do anything wrong.

[Edited on December 5, 2007 at 5:58 PM. Reason : ]

12/5/2007 5:56:10 PM

Quote :

"So if I kidnap you, but don't hurt you, that's not a violent crime?"

I'd say that's violent. Certainly a use of force against a person. Nothing like burglary.

Quote :

"If I take you hostage in the process of robbing a bank, that's not a violent crime unless I cause you bodily harm?"

See above. Using force against a person is violent. By itself, burglary only involves property. Despite what you might like to think, you are separable from your belongings.

Quote :

"Is purposefully setting fire to your house not a violent crime as long as you're not home?"

No, probably not. However, it would be if a person were endangered.

Quote :

"What if I shoot your dog?"

Violence against an animal, obviously.

Quote :

"The right not to have the fruits of your labor stolen from you doesn't depend on any society or laws. It's a natural one."

Sure. Let's go overthrow capitalism together. That aside, I generally agree, but it depends. I don't see much wrong with stealing an unused high-definition television from a millionaire who has dozens of the things. However, I would condemn stealing the same millionaire's personal computer.

Quote :

"I guess criminals have the right to not get shot or beat up for breaking the law unless its by someone wearing a badge. Law abiding citizens have the right to call 911 and pray that the police roll in before the criminals leave with all their valuable right GoldenViper???"

I don't even think we should have police.

12/5/2007 8:54:32 PM

At most if the court finds that the guy maliciously attacked the 2 burglars w/o being threatened he should get manslaughter. A conviction of 2nd degree murder would be a green light for future criminals and takes the power out of the peoples hands to help make their community safer. Honestly, with the neighbors not home I would not risk my life for their home entertainment system. My power to the guy for taking a stand against all those that think they can get by in life living like their favorite gangster rapper.

12/5/2007 9:44:33 PM

Quote :

"For example, lets say you have kids and they could even be white for this matter (I'm white by the way). They're playing in the backyard and you're not there at the time. One of the kids throws something over the fence and goes over to retrieve it. You go outside and ask where he is and then all of a sudden you here a loud boom. Of course he wasn't robbing anything but you just lost you son due to some trigger happy buffoon"

Do you often live in fear that your neighbors are homicidal maniacs?

And aside from that, if they clear Horn 100% perfectly legal, and give him a medal of honor, that still doesn't change the legality of your example. It's illegal to shoot random people not comitting crimes in the first place. Furthermore, perhaps you should teach your kids to knock on the neighbor's door before entering their property. You know, proper manners and such.

Quote :

" he could have shot those burglars in the legs or ass, but no, he wasted them with only a few seconds notice. "

And when he misses because he's aiming at a smaller moving target and the spread shots richochet off the rocks in the yard and blow away some kid a block over? If you're going to shoot, you shoot center mass and you shoot till they stop. Anything else is dangerous and illegal in most states.

Quote :

"They are saying that Horn can't just be let off the hook for killing 2 people for stealing from his neighbor, unless it can be established legally that he didn't in fact do anything wrong. "

No no no, you've got it all wrong. Horn is off the hook unless it can be PROVEN legally that he didn't have a right to shoot. Very different concept.

Quote :

"See above. Using force against a person is violent. "

I'm not using force against a person, just locking the door and not letting you leave.

Quote :

"Despite what you might like to think, you are separable from your belongings. "

You are seperable from your hand too.

Quote :

"No, probably not."

Burnign down your house isn't a violent crime? You're serious aren't you?

Quote :

"Violence against an animal, obviously. "

Your dog is property just like your couch.

Quote :

"I don't see much wrong with stealing an unused high-definition television from a millionaire who has dozens of the things."

And this is where we fundamentaly disagree. You believe it's ok to comit crimes.

Quote :

"I don't even think we should have police. "

So how do you keep law and order? Clearly the people won't, or we wouldn't be having this discussion right now, because the two choir boys wouldn't have violated other people's natural rights.

12/6/2007 7:00:44 PM

Quote :

"And when he misses because he's aiming at a smaller moving target and the spread shots richochet off the rocks in the yard and blow away some kid a block over? If you're going to shoot, you shoot center mass and you shoot till they stop. Anything else is dangerous and illegal in most states."

Given current tech levels, this is quite correct. As I said before, why do people keep repeating this flawed argument? I guess we do agree on a few things.

Quote :

"I'm not using force against a person, just locking the door and not letting you leave."

How do you stop me without using force? Obviously, there are gradients. If you simply lock me in my room, I wouldn't consider that very violent.

Quote :

"You are seperable from your hand too."

Now you're just trolling me. In the vast majority of cases, property isn't anything like a hand. Removing a hand nearly always causes severe physical and emotional trauma. Removing a high-definition TV causes severe emotional harm at worst.

Quote :

"Burnign down your house isn't a violent crime? You're serious aren't you?"

Assuming no one could reasonably be expected to be harmed by the flames, yes. It's still a horrible thing to do in most cases.

Quote :

"Your dog is property just like your couch."

I don't necessarily accept that. Even if it is property, it's also a living creature. Your TV is not. If were, there's no guarantee it wouldn't prefer being in the burglar's hands.

Quote :

"And this is where we fundamentaly disagree. You believe it's ok to comit crimes."

Or I believe such things aren't crimes. Take your pick. I'm sure you accept certain things I consider criminal.

Quote :

"So how do you keep law and order? Clearly the people won't, or we wouldn't be having this discussion right now, because the two choir boys wouldn't have violated other people's natural rights."

I gave a few suggestions in an earlier post. Treat the "criminals" as human beings. Show them how they've harmed others. Perhaps come to compromise. Reject all forms of domination, oppression, and hierarchy.

In extreme cases, communities might decide to exile and isolate the worst offenders. In freer society, I doubt this would happen often.

12/6/2007 7:23:42 PM

I believe GoldenViper is suffering what i like to call pussitis.

Quote :

""I don't see much wrong with stealing an unused high-definition television from a millionaire who has dozens of the things.""

Dude, I am not want of those people who buy into the Red-Scare or discredit gov't who decide to institute socialist republics but you sound like a straight up communist Marxist style. Either that or you lack any sense of morality and do not see a problem committing crimes.

12/6/2007 7:50:58 PM

Quote :

"How do you stop me without using force? Obviously, there are gradients. If you simply lock me in my room, I wouldn't consider that very violent. "

I'm just locking the door and not letting you get past me to the lock. Of course if you try to force me out of the way, I'll use force or shoot you, but even you said:

Quote :

"You should only use a gun to defend yourself or others from death or injury."

I wasn't using violence, your shoving escalated it to violence and I'm now just defending myself.

Quote :

" Removing a high-definition TV causes severe emotional harm at worst."

So severe emotional harm is ok as long as I don't physically hurt you? Like I said, for most burglary victims, it isn't the stuff, it's the feeling of being violated.

Quote :

"I don't necessarily accept that. Even if it is property, it's also a living creature."

So is my house plant.

Quote :

"If were, there's no guarantee it wouldn't prefer being in the burglar's hands. "

There's no guarantee my child wouldn't like living with the guy trying to kidnap him either (stockholm syndrome anyone?) but I'm still going to shoot the guy trying to take him.

Quote :

"Or I believe such things aren't crimes. Take your pick. I'm sure you accept certain things I consider criminal. "

You believe that theft isn't theft if there's enough of the items to steal. So it's ok if I steal an apple from the guy with the cart of apples, but it's not ok if I take it from the homeless guy down the street.

Quote :

"Treat the "criminals" as human beings."

They are. Until they decide to not treat me like a human being.

Quote :

"Show them how they've harmed others."

I will. They take from me, I'll take their life. Then they'll know the pain of someone taking something from them. Of course if you like, I'm also happy to make them a slave at minimum wage until they've paid off all the damages and loss they've called and earned enough to cover any insurance increases for the rest of my life. Then they will see how they've harmed me.

Quote :

"Perhaps come to compromise."

We've already reached a compromise. Leave my shit alone and I won't shoot you.

Quote :

"Reject all forms of domination, oppression, and hierarchy."

This from the guy who just said:

Quote :

"I don't see much wrong with stealing an unused high-definition television from a millionaire who has dozens of the things"

Sounds like a hierarchy to me, the more stuff you have, the less rights to it you have.

Quote :

"In extreme cases, communities might decide to exile and isolate the worst offenders."

You mean like a prison? And how do you determine the worst offenders? Perhaps with a judge or a court? And how to you compel someone who is an offender to show up at court so that they may be judged and defend themselves? How do you force them into exile and isolation when it's determined that's what they need? Perhaps with a group of citizens trained to apprehend and detain such people? What might you call them? Police perhaps?

12/6/2007 7:54:55 PM

Heres the 911 tape, it starts getting interesting in the 5:00 minute mark, he specifically says "I'm gonna kill 'em" at the 6:06 mark, before he has even left the house.

[Edited on December 6, 2007 at 7:58 PM. Reason : .]

12/6/2007 7:58:00 PM

GoldenViper is a future omaha mall shooting guy

12/6/2007 8:18:58 PM

Quote :

"I'm just locking the door and not letting you get past me to the lock. Of course if you try to force me out of the way, I'll use force or shoot you, but even you said"

Obviously, it depends on the circumstances. In this context, it would clearly be immoral to shoot someone for trying to push or squeeze past a person preventing him or her from leaving a structure. Pushing or squeezing past some isn't typically considered violence. That type of thing happens in crowds all the time.

Quote :

"So severe emotional harm is ok as long as I don't physically hurt you? Like I said, for most burglary victims, it isn't the stuff, it's the feeling of being violated."

Severe harm can be caused my all manner of things. However, as I said, I generally consider breaking into a person's home quite unacceptable. That doesn't make it violent.

Quote :

"You believe that theft isn't theft if there's enough of the items to steal. So it's ok if I steal an apple from the guy with the cart of apples, but it's not ok if I take it from the homeless guy down the street."

It's not the ideal solution in any case. Whenever possible, you should deal openly and honestly with your comrades. However, if one person has all the apples and he or she won't give you any, you probably should start stealing.

Quote :

"Of course if you like, I'm also happy to make them a slave at minimum wage until they've paid off all the damages and loss they've called and earned enough to cover any insurance increases for the rest of my life. Then they will see how they've harmed me."

I'd go about things the opposite way. I don't care what a person has done. He or she should be treated with dignity. He or she should atone for the harm without being treated as slave or anything similarly degrading.

Quote :

"Sounds like a hierarchy to me, the more stuff you have, the less rights to it you have."

How is that a hierarchy? Everyone should have a roughly similar amount of stuff. Everyone has the right to the stuff he or his regularly uses. No one has any claim over hoarded, unused possessions.

Quote :

"You mean like a prison? And how do you determine the worst offenders? Perhaps with a judge or a court? And how to you compel someone who is an offender to show up at court so that they may be judged and defend themselves? How do you force them into exile and isolation when it's determined that's what they need? Perhaps with a group of citizens trained to apprehend and detain such people? What might you call them? Police perhaps?"

Yes, loosely equivalent structures might appears from time to time. However, current American prisons and police are both antithetical to freedom.

Quote :

"GoldenViper is a future omaha mall shooting guy"

No, I don't think so. I plan on living forever. Why would I throw my life away?

[Edited on December 6, 2007 at 8:24 PM. Reason : futurism]

12/6/2007 8:21:05 PM

Quote :

"I'd go about things the opposite way. I don't care what a person has done. He or she should be treated with dignity. He or she should atone for the harm without being treated as slave or anything similarly degrading. Quote : "Sounds like a hierarchy to me, the more stuff you have, the less rights to it you have." How is that a hierarchy? Everyone should have a roughly similar amount of stuff. Everyone has the right to the stuff he or his regularly uses. No one has any claim over hoarded, unused possessions."

this guy is an absolute joke. Are you for real dude???? Well damn I will vote you for president. With you way of thinking; I can sit on my couch all day eating chettos and still be entitled to the same amount as the entrepreneur who through hard work and innovation turns his company into a major corporation.

I heard Kim Jong-il was taking applications for young American males to come live a utopian equal life in N. Korea. You should feel in paradise b.c unless you are part of the few ruling elite will live in harmony with roughly the same economic state as your peers.

12/6/2007 8:30:57 PM

Quote :

"this guy is an absolute joke. Are you for real dude????"

Absolutely.

Quote :

"With you way of thinking; I can sit on my couch all day eating chettos and still be entitled to the same amount as the entrepreneur who through hard work and innovation turns his company into a major corporation."

No, not quite like that. If you find a cache of unused snacks, I imagine you could eat them. However, your comrades might become rather cross with you if only consume and never produce. Ideally, however, food would be plentiful enough that folks would be willing to feed even the resolutely lazy.

12/6/2007 8:44:13 PM

Where the fuck are all these hard-working, innovative entrepeneurs?

There's this large population of mystery men that you boys like to beatify, then gratify yourselves to.

What about the people who work hard at regular jobs?

Are they not worth masturbating to?

[Edited on December 6, 2007 at 8:47 PM. Reason : ?]

12/6/2007 8:44:48 PM

Entrepreneurs often let their money do the work for them.

That's capitalism.

12/6/2007 8:49:12 PM

Quote :

"In this context, it would clearly be immoral to shoot someone for trying to push or squeeze past a person preventing him or her from leaving a structure."

But I could use force to push you back, I don't have to shoot you, but since you are using force on me, I'm allowed to use force on you.

Quote :

"Severe harm can be caused my all manner of things."

But as long as it isn't physical harm, it's not violence?

Quote :

"Whenever possible, you should deal openly and honestly with your comrades."

And if they refuse to deal openly and honestly with you? Like say waiting until you're not around and smashing your window and taking the things you worked for?

Quote :

"However, if one person has all the apples and he or she won't give you any, you probably should start stealing."

Or you know, grow your own.

Besides, why should they give you any apples?

Your mentality is the exact same one that theives use.

Quote :

"I don't care what a person has done. He or she should be treated with dignity. He or she should atone for the harm without being treated as slave or anything similarly degrading. "

How are they going to know the pain they've cause without being degraded the same way they did me? By taking what I have worked to have as their own without providing any fair and agreed upon compensation, they have made me their slave. To show them the pain they have caused, it's only fair to make them a slave long enough to earn back what they have stolen.

Quote :

"How is that a hierarchy? Everyone should have a roughly similar amount of stuff. Everyone has the right to the stuff he or his regularly uses. No one has any claim over hoarded, unused possessions. "

Right, so if you have something that you don't use often enough (as defined by the theif) you are of a lower class and undeserving of the protections of law.

Quote :

"Yes, loosely equivalent structures might appears from time to time. However, current American prisons and police are both antithetical to freedom."

Right, but you didn't say you were opposed to the american police system, you said you were opposed to police in general.

Quote :

"However, your comrades might become rather cross with you if only consume and never produce."

And when they get irate enough to decide that it's time you do something or they cut you off what then?

Quote :

"Ideally, however, food would be plentiful enough that folks would be willing to feed even the resolutely lazy. "

And if there isn't? People will only produce enough to support themselves. You can't force them to produce for those who won't contribute. If you and I are alive, and you need 4 apples to survive, you will work to ensure that you always have 4 apples. I on the other hand, refuse to work, you give me 4 apples every day because your tree produces 8. Then one day, a natural disaster occurs, and your tree only produces 4 apples. Under your system, I have the right to take my 4 apples from you because you have all the apples and you won't give me any.

Quote :

"Where the fuck are all these hard-working, innovative entrepeneurs? There's this large population of mystery men that you boys like to beatify, then gratify yourselves to. What about the people who work hard at regular jobs? "

Just because the majority of the population prefers the safety of working for another as opposed to the risk of working for themselves doesn't mean there aren't enterpeneurs making life better for all of us.

Quote :

"Entrepreneurs often let their money do the work for them. That's capitalism. "

Right, they pay the people who don't produce for themselves so that they may purchase from those who do produce. In this way societies have worked for years. Don't let the inclusion of money confuse you, it's still trade. In the end, I still can make apples, and you still can make clothes. In exchange for you making me some clothes, I will make you some apples. You seem to want to propose a society in which Bridget, can come by and take clothes from you and apples from me and give neither of us anything in return because she "deserves" it.

12/6/2007 9:32:02 PM

GoldenViper would feel out home here

12/6/2007 9:56:57 PM

Quote :

"But as long as it isn't physical harm, it's not violence?"

Pretty much. What do you think violence means? I'll grant that the word can include emotional harm and so on. However, in this context, we should define it more strictly. If crimes against property are violent crimes, what isn't a violent crime? Traditionally, property crimes are excluded from the category. (Except for robbery, of course, but that involves at the threat of physical harm.)

Quote :

"Besides, why should they give you any apples?"

Why should they have all the apples?

Quote :

"How are they going to know the pain they've cause without being degraded the same way they did me?"

Both empathy and reason could do it.

Quote :

"Right, so if you have something that you don't use often enough (as defined by the theif) you are of a lower class and undeserving of the protections of law."

In the society I envision, there is no law.

Anyways, imagine a country in which one man owns all the land. By your logic, he suddenly becomes lower class if someone ignores his supposed property rights and squats on the land. In reality, equality has increased. Now two people, instead of one, have the land they need to live comfortably.

Why should anyone have a claim over object he doesn't personally use?

Quote :

"Right, but you didn't say you were opposed to the american police system, you said you were opposed to police in general."

I am. If community considered some sort of police force necessary, it should exist as briefly as possible. It wouldn't be much like our police. Members wouldn't be superior to everyone else.

Quote :

"And when they get irate enough to decide that it's time you do something or they cut you off what then?"

You might have to fend for yourself.

Quote :

"And if there isn't?"

Something has already gone wrong. We current produce and waste vast quantities of basic necessities. It's poor organization. In a freer society, for example, people would be able to scavenge from dumpsters without being harassed by both police and civilians.

Quote :

"People will only produce enough to support themselves."

I don't know about that.

Quote :

"You can't force them to produce for those who won't contribute."

Agreed.

Quote :

"Under your system, I have the right to take my 4 apples from you because you have all the apples and you won't give me any."

That sounds intuitively immoral to me. Of course, in this situation, only one person can survive, so there's no good solution.

Quote :

"In the end, I still can make apples, and you still can make clothes. In exchange for you making me some clothes, I will make you some apples."

Or, with capitalism, I buy a factory and find some people to work in it. Because I own this factory, I'm somehow entitled to claim 40% of what it produces and split the remaining 60% amongst the many workers. On the other hand, if they ran the factory themselves, they could divide everything evenly.

Quote :

"You seem to want to propose a society in which Bridget, can come by and take clothes from you and apples from me and give neither of us anything in return because she "deserves" it."

If we have a surplus of those things, sure. However, if want to hoard and she wants to take, that's not a healthy community. I bet we could come to a better arrangement.

By the way, I'd prefer this flag:



[Edited on December 6, 2007 at 10:16 PM. Reason : flag]

12/6/2007 10:13:48 PM

yeah i figured communist or anarchist. The problem though since it is anarchist you approve; in a anarchist society Mr. Horn would shoot the burglars and not have to account to anyone. We would hope that he did this justifiably but their would be no system to decide right or wrong.

12/7/2007 1:11:53 AM

He would have to account to the community. Each of his comrades would have to decide whether he had acted appropriately. As in our society, I imagine there would be public debate about the issue.

12/7/2007 1:19:26 AM

Comrad! For Mother Russia.

Dude communism did not work the revolution is over.

12/7/2007 1:37:53 AM

Communism and anarchy are drastically different.

12/7/2007 1:45:25 AM

but what could the community do about it? Anarchy means no government and you yourself said to do away with all hierarchies and opression. So what could they do about it? And what would it matter what they decide? Under the system you're proposing even if they decide to exile him or cut him off, he has the right to just waltz right in and take what he wants because we deserves whatever everyone else has.

12/7/2007 8:06:36 AM

^^ no shit but his ideas concerning property rights could be interpreted as marxist communist ideals

12/7/2007 8:59:09 AM

^^ Social pressure would be the first resort. Despite what you might, force isn't the only why to influence people. I don't believe in severe punishment, and certainly wouldn't advocate it for this man, even assuming the worst.

^ It's all related, as even Wikipedia can tell you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

Note that I'm not necessarily opposed to the milder forms of market anarchism.

12/7/2007 1:27:05 PM

^^ What good is social pressure when they person you're pressuring is already breaking the rules? Whether codified as law, spoken as agreements or unspoken as understandings, society operates on rules, and when someone chooses to live outside those rules they are already not being influenced by social pressure to conform. And in the society you envision, there would be no need to conform because the lazy bum is allowed to steal whatever he wants regardless of society's rules.

12/7/2007 1:52:49 PM

move to Somalia. Anarchy works great there .

Your libertarian-socialist society sounds like the utopian paradise. Until you factor in limitation of resources, natural human competition, greed, and the power vacuum.

If you hate capitalism and authority so much go to Arizona pitch a hut and live in your own little commune.

The communist experiment failed dude; it simply does not work. Lenin's system probably had a lot in common with your ideas. Then you have people like Stalin that were able to work into power and rule with a iron fist. Sure it sounds nice for the avg joe who lacks intelligence, innovation, and/or the assertiveness to become successful in life. Blame the middle and upper classes for your faults and how great would it be to chill on your LaZ-Boy 24/7 and have equal resources as the rest of society.

Your idea of libertarian-socialism really does not fall under true libertarian ideals which i uphold too. Your attempt at providing economic equality in fact actually heavily restricts liberty. A fundamental aspect of libertarianism. Overacheivers, hard workers, or naturally talented individuals have no incentive to excel and no reward for providing greater to society. With out any kind of central structure our society would deteriorate into a network of mafia type institutions to bring about order.

[Edited on December 7, 2007 at 2:06 PM. Reason : a]

12/7/2007 1:53:54 PM

GoldenViper has some completely ridiculous philosophies

12/7/2007 2:00:55 PM

Quote :

"Whether codified as law, spoken as agreements or unspoken as understandings, society operates on rules, and when someone chooses to live outside those rules they are already not being influenced by social pressure to conform."

Not at first, anyway. That doesn't mean the community couldn't convince the person to change. If theft of possessions were a problem, there are a ways protect such objects without force. If the "criminal" used violence, people would defend themselves in kind.

Quote :

"And in the society you envision, there would be no need to conform because the lazy bum is allowed to steal whatever he wants regardless of society's rules."

If the community were rich enough, perhaps. I imagine most communities would have the resources to sustain the resolutely lazy. However, I doubt that'd be a serious problem. Maybe we have difference ideas about human nature, but can't see most people choosing that option. Is work that onerous? When done with equals and without bosses, I doubt it.

Quote :

"If you hate capitalism and authority so much go to Arizona pitch a hut and live in your own little commune."

I might do exactly that. I'm applying to the University of Arizona.

12/7/2007 2:09:21 PM

Does the U. of Arizona give free tuition and equal education to all cause if not its sounds a little too capitalistic for your likes

12/7/2007 2:17:26 PM

Quote :

"there are a ways protect such objects without force"

In your fantasy land I guess people would resolve conflict via kisses, rainbows, and killer jams from your acoustic guitar expressing your displeasure of the thief taking your balls.

Please do not shoot me when you go on your rampage in the brickyard like the VT dude

12/7/2007 2:22:50 PM

I find it hilarious that people are getting so worked up about what GoldenViper just said.

12/7/2007 2:27:26 PM

^ Well, you hire and work with anarchists. You've gotten used to it.

Isn't it terrible how you have to keep us from stealing your shit? If it weren't for the cops and that shotgun in the office...

12/7/2007 2:34:40 PM

Quote :

"Not at first, anyway. That doesn't mean the community couldn't convince the person to change."

And in the mean time, your criminal is leaving easy and free and everyone else is suffering for it.

Quote :

"f theft of possessions were a problem, there are a ways protect such objects without force."

Right, like doors, and locks and windows and alarms and enclosing their belongings in this structure where one would keep their belongings. They could even use that structure as shelter to protect them from the elements. They could call it a house.

Quote :

"If the "criminal" used violence, people would defend themselves in kind. "

Right. Like a shotgun blast center mass.

Quote :

"I imagine most communities would have the resources to sustain the resolutely lazy. "

Where do you propose the community of NYC acquire it's oil from? Or alternatively, what do you do when those resources run out or become scarce?

Quote :

"Maybe we have difference ideas about human nature, but can't see most people choosing that option."

You can't see most people choosing the option to do whatever the hell they want and all of their wants and needs and desires will be fulfilled by "The Community"?

Quote :

"Is work that onerous?"

Yes. Survival is tough. That's why barter and capitalist systems developed, so that the excesses produced by specialization can be used to better everyone's life.

Quote :

"When done with equals and without bosses, I doubt it."

Remember that time is a resource too. The reason you have bosses is to decide how that time should be most effectively used. Sure, everyone might like a good ole fashioned barn raising, but when you need to raise 20 barns and can only do 1 a day, how do you decide who has to wait until the end without some boss or leader?

Quote :

"Isn't it terrible how you have to keep us from stealing your shit? If it weren't for the cops and that shotgun in the office..."

So you're saying the fact that doors are locked, that he could fire you for stealing his shit and that he could have you arrested in no way shape or form effect yours or anyone else's decisions to steal or not steal from him?

[Edited on December 7, 2007 at 2:43 PM. Reason : sdfadsf]

12/7/2007 2:40:59 PM

Quote :

"I find it hilarious that people are getting so worked up about what GoldenViper just said."

well hes saying things to the effect of its ok to steal a HDTV from a millionaire simply because the millionaire is rich...even though its still stealing someone else's property...i find it pathetic that he even believes these things

12/7/2007 2:54:26 PM

Quote :

"And in the mean time, your criminal is leaving easy and free and everyone else is suffering for it."

Maybe. If that's the price of eschewing force and coercion, I can accept it.

Quote :

"Right, like doors, and locks and windows and alarms and enclosing their belongings in this structure where one would keep their belongings."

Yes, though I imagine locks would be unneeded in most egalitarian communities. However, it might be useful for short periods of time in certain places.

Quote :

"Right. Like a shotgun blast center mass."

To prevent injury or death, yes. As I said, if the burglars attack or threatened Horn, he acted reasonably.

Quote :

"Where do you propose the community of NYC acquire it's oil from?"

Trade with other communities, as now. I certainly wouldn't want primitivism or anything similar.

Quote :

"Or alternatively, what do you do when those resources run out or become scarce?"

That would be for the community to decide, eschewing violence and coercion, as always.

Quote :

"You can't see most people choosing the option to do whatever the hell they want and all of their wants and needs and desires will be fulfilled by "The Community"?"

No. People enjoy being productive and creative. They might not work as hard as under capitalism, but I don't believe everyone would become a parasite.

Quote :

"but when you need to raise 20 barns and can only do 1 a day, how do you decide who has to wait until the end without some boss or leader?"

Discussion and consensus, ideally. If that fails, perhaps direct democracy.

Quote :

"well hes saying things to the effect of its ok to steal a HDTV from a millionaire simply because the millionaire is rich...even though its still stealing someone else's property...i find it pathetic that he even believes these things"

What is property? Why does this millionaire have a claim on something he never uses?

[Edited on December 7, 2007 at 2:59 PM. Reason : use]

12/7/2007 2:57:38 PM

Quote :

"Why does this millionaire have a claim on something he never uses?"

Because he bought it with his own money

Thats how things work in the United States

12/7/2007 3:04:07 PM

How did he get this money?

Yes, that is how things work in the US currently. The state enforces these rules.

12/7/2007 3:06:01 PM

how should i know how a hypothetical person that you made up got his money?

you're advocating stealing by trying to cloud the definition of property

i feel like i'm trying to tell a child the difference between right and wrong...that you don't just take things from other people

12/7/2007 3:08:41 PM