Quote :

"Um, men are needed guy. So go ahead and sign up. I'm not saying military service should be a litmus test for office, nor should it preclude someone from holding an opinion, but I can assure you that the ground forces of the United States military are stretched rather thin. "

who said they were not stretched thin? I would agree that they are. however, because the AP runs articles once a week on military recruiting goals being missed does not mean they need every able-bodied man to run down and sign up immediately. if that happened, there would be a huge glut in the economy of talented workers going overseas and would hurt us locally and nationally.

my going down and signing up today is not prudent (and believe me, I have almost done it a number times and even talked to Duke about it over PM) - I am almost 27 years old and our military needs a better strategy to finish the job in Iraq...not more boots. our soldiers are not being overwelmed by a large force. our strategy is what was the problem (and it seems to be doing better now).

but yes. I will go and sign up the day that I will do more good overseas than I do at home. I do not believe that time is now. if WWIII starts, I will sign up before they draft me. You can believe that and keep this to call me out on it if/when it happens.

1/9/2008 11:30:08 AM

Quote :

""If Iran is SUCH a threat to world peace and economic stability surely a bunch of our allies will be ready to invade also! I mean we saved the world by conquering the evil Iraq empire. I think its about time for Europe, Saudi Arabia, and Japan to start pulling their weight in removing the worlds demonic leaders.""

I agree. I hate how it is deemed by the international community that the US/UK are to police the world. When we do act, it is critized as too much (Iraq for example). When we do not act, it is critized as not enough (Somalia, Africa, etc...).

They do need to start pulling their own weight and in light of the elections in France, I think some countries are starting to come around to that fact.

1/9/2008 11:34:01 AM

Quote :

"who said they were not stretched thin? I would agree that they are. however, because the AP runs articles once a week on military recruiting goals being missed does not mean they need every able-bodied man to run down and sign up immediately."

I didn't say every able-bodied male. I believe the words I used were, "I'm sick of all these goddamned armchair warriors talking about, "we need to invade this" or "you don't show weakness here" when they have no intetions themselves of bearing any of the burden of "protecting the nation."

Quote :

"I am almost 27 years old and our military needs a better strategy to finish the job in Iraq...not more boots."

Not sure why your age matters.

That being said, occupation requires boots, not just a "strategy". I'm a much bigger fan of the current Petraeus model than I have been of any prior model, but the fact of the matter is that we continue to neglect Afghanistan for the more pressing issue of Iraq. There is a reason most of the southern provinces of Afghanistan have been ceeded to the Taliban. Granted, they are the responsibility of the European nations, but there is no doubt that more American Soldiers and Marines could shift that balance.

A stable Pakistan would be easier to facilitate with a stable Afghani / Pakistani border, which doesn't exist at the moment.

1/9/2008 11:36:17 AM

double post

[Edited on January 9, 2008 at 11:50 AM. Reason : .]

1/9/2008 11:41:22 AM

Quote :

"Not sure why your age matters. That being said, occupation requires boots, not just a "strategy". I'm a much bigger fan of the current Petraeus model than I have been of any prior model, but the fact of the matter is that we continue to neglect Afghanistan for the more pressing issue of Iraq. There is a reason most of the southern provinces of Afghanistan have been ceeded to the Taliban. Granted, they are the responsibility of the European nations, but there is no doubt that more American Soldiers and Marines could shift that balance. A stable Pakistan would be easier to facilitate with a stable Afghani / Pakistani border, which doesn't exist at the moment."

of course my age matters. it matters both in my career here at home and any one I would persue in the military. I would be an old SOB 2nd LT. my direct superiors would all be younger than I. I would probably be promoted slowly and be making at 31 what most officers make at 25. volunteering today would directly effect my career at home and cause me thousands of dollars in potential earnings as the prime of my career would be pushed back by the length of my service. that said, I will go before they draft me if I am needed. the draft would not be necessary.

as far as the boots go, the added boots they need for occupation are coming from native Iraqi people themselves. currently, we are not adding to the troop numbers by significant amounts. we are in the process of a gradual reduction and while that reduction can not be measured on a straight line, it is going on.

I agree on Pakistan and Afghanistan. The biggest mistake we made was trying to do too much at once between Afghanistan and Iraq. We needed to focus our efforts.

1/9/2008 11:50:11 AM

Quote :

"of course my age matters. it matters both in my career here at home and any one I would persue in the military. I would be an old SOB 2nd LT. my direct superiors would all be younger than I. I would probably be promoted slowly and be making at 31 what most officers make at 25. volunteering today would directly effect my career at home and cause me thousands of dollars in potential earnings as the prime of my career would be pushed back by the length of my service."

The 2007-2008 Soldier of the Year is Spc. Heyz T. Seeker. He's 35 and in the 75th Ranger Regiment. Age doesn't seem to be the issue, rather you don't see this work to be important enough for you to actually disrupt your life.

Quote :

"currently, we are not adding to the troop numbers by significant amounts. we are in the process of a gradual reduction and while that reduction can not be measured on a straight line, it is going on."

We're going to pre-surge levels, but below that, our troop levels aren't expected to drop significantly in the next 18 months. Of course, November could change all that.

1/9/2008 11:59:58 AM

Quote :

"It was not clear, however, that the voice was coming from any of the boats"

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/01/09/us.iran/index.html

1/9/2008 12:03:02 PM

where else was it coming from? some transmission from land?

1/9/2008 12:41:51 PM

it was coming from the little men in the radio of course......

1/9/2008 12:42:32 PM

^^ it was a setup. George Bush was saying it. DUH.

1/9/2008 12:43:05 PM

well i'm sure the captain of the navy ship had the cell phone number of random iranian skiff commander on speed dial.

1/9/2008 12:49:06 PM

cell phones are the preferred method of communication on the high seas...they've got so many cell towers underwater

1/9/2008 12:51:48 PM

I think you guys are missing the point. I am not condoning hostile actions of Iran or disagree with the responsibility of Navy Vessels to defend themselves from a potential danger.

The issue is a lot of you guys seem not just unconcerned but almost eager for an excuse to execute military action against Iran in order to initiate a regime change similar to Iran. Without of course weighing the consequences of war or fully understanding our actions that have put us on the "outs" with Iran.

1/9/2008 1:12:45 PM

i'm not eager to go to war but i thought it was funny that the title of that article was " Bush calls Iran 'threat to world peace'"

Iran a threat to world peace? no shit cnn, thanks for telling us what we all already knew

1/9/2008 1:14:59 PM

the article should be titled

"Bush Threat to World Peace"

1/9/2008 1:19:28 PM

the article should be titled "World Peace: an impossible myth that can never ever ever happen, ever"

^get your bush jokes in while you can, only 1 more year!

1/9/2008 1:20:17 PM

Quote :

"The 2007-2008 Soldier of the Year is Spc. Heyz T. Seeker. He's 35 and in the 75th Ranger Regiment. Age doesn't seem to be the issue, rather you don't see this work to be important enough for you to actually disrupt your life. "

So in summary...

I (or anyone else) am not entitled to my opinion as to the aggressiveness of the US military in handling world affairs because I am not willing to drop what I am doing, this instant, and join said military. Although I have stated repeatedly that I would go if called upon by my country (before a draft was instituted) without blinking an eye. It is also irrelevent (to you) that I have 4 family members who served/are serving in Iraq. I also forgot to mention my good friend who was a Marine in Fallujah during the major offensive there 2 years ago...he took 2 rounds in the right collarbone and cannot use his arm anymore. I mention these people not as my proxy but to demonstrate how personal this war is to me even though I do not wear a uniform. I am aware of its consequences.

Therefore, in keeping pace with your stance, a person MUST participate in any action of the government he or she carries an opinion of. Hmm. Interesting concept. Lame, not practical and juvenile as well, but interesting nonetheless.

1/9/2008 1:25:36 PM

Quote :

"Hey, here's an idea. How 'bout you guys just let the Navy worry about it, ok? "

Send 'em all to hell, chembob.

^^ Yeah, "BUSH DID IT!!!1"[/idiocy]

[Edited on January 9, 2008 at 1:38 PM. Reason : .]

1/9/2008 1:37:39 PM

Quote :

"I (or anyone else) am not entitled to my opinion as to the aggressiveness of the US military in handling world affairs because I am not willing to drop what I am doing, this instant, and join said military . . . Although I have stated repeatedly that I would go if called upon by my country (before a draft was instituted) without blinking an eye."

You're entitled to whatever opinion you chose. My opinion is that you're a hypocrite when you say you'll join if the nation needs you, when it clearly needs Soldiers, and you don't join. Your reasoning for not going was filled with first person pronouns about how much it would suck for you. I knew plenty of guys in college who said "oh I'll join if we ever go to war" but September 11th happens and they're still making high 5 figures bilking people out of their land rights in Oklahoma. Making hyperbole out of my statements doesn't make them wrong, and no you don't have to participate in every aspect of government when you have an opinion; but this isn't a farm bill or a research contract, this is life and death.

Congratulations, you have friends and family that serve. I respect them, and I'll give you credit for the fact that they give you a better perspective than a large number of Americans who weigh in on these issues, but the fact remains that you don't think that this threat is "big and bad" enough for you to lay aside your personal comfort to do something about it.

[Edited on January 9, 2008 at 1:40 PM. Reason : ^ I gave you a shout-out big guy . . . don't let it go unnoticed. ]

1/9/2008 1:37:44 PM

the military doesnt clearly need every able-bodied male to sign up tomorrow. if you are arguing that, you lost. if they did, they would require it. some branches missing recruiting goals and hypothetical engagement scenarios in which we cannot man an invasion force does not equal desperately needing soldiers. it means that IF a certain chain of events were to take place, there would be a need for an influx of manpower. those events take place, I am there. if our government decides that Iran or N Korea (or anyone else) is a threat to our national security and they need a new crop of men to join I will be the first in line.

so again, your argument is:

Quote :

"Lame, not practical and juvenile"

at best. because I am willing to join when it is necessary that I do. before that, I am not. ever think that maybe I dont think Iraq is where we should be? would it not also counter your argument if I were to join before the action is taken that I support?

1/9/2008 2:01:51 PM

Quote :

"the military doesnt clearly need every able-bodied male to sign up tomorrow."

Never argued that, I've corrected you twice on this, I'm not doing it again.

Quote :

"some branches missing recruiting goals and hypothetical engagement scenarios in which we cannot man an invasion force does not equal desperately needing soldiers."

When the branch missing its recruiting goal is shouldering the lions share of operations (by overall numbers) in Iraq it changes the picture significantly. GEN Casey, Army Chief of Staff, Colin Powell, and numerous other senior military officers have said that the Army is at, if not already past, its breaking point. The divorce rate in both the Army and the Marine Corps are at their highest in 12 years. The Army just offered a $35k bonus for Army officers in certain specialties to extend for three years, they fell well short of their goal.

Are you arguing that it is sound military policy to over-extend the military but not go about trying to fix it until the last minute?

More to the point, I'm not directing my comments at a hypothetical, I'm directing my comments at those who want to make an invasion of Iran a very real thing. These are the men I'm calling out as hypocrites.

Quote :

"ever think that maybe I dont think Iraq is where we should be?"

Nothing you've said implies that you might take this position, so no. I'll grant you that your ground would become firmer if this were the case, but it still smacks of back-pedaling.

Quote :

"if our government decides that Iran or N Korea (or anyone else) is a threat to our national security and they need a new crop of men to join I will be the first in line."

You mean if they institute a draft. Army bonuses are at all time-highs, the need exists, you're just dodging the issue until you're essentially compelled to join.

1/9/2008 2:25:56 PM

Quote :

"the military doesnt clearly need every able-bodied male to sign up tomorrow. if you are arguing that, you lost. if they did, they would require it."

The military can't institute a draft, it has to be a congressional thing, so therefore, with this congress and this president, you won't see a draft even if the military desperately needed it.

1/9/2008 2:31:22 PM

Quote :

"When the branch missing its recruiting goal is shouldering the lions share of operations (by overall numbers) in Iraq it changes the picture significantly. GEN Casey, Army Chief of Staff, Colin Powell, and numerous other senior military officers have said that the Army is at, if not already past, its breaking point. The divorce rate in both the Army and the Marine Corps are at their highest in 12 years. The Army just offered a $35k bonus for Army officers in certain specialties to extend for three years, they fell well short of their goal. Are you arguing that it is sound military policy to over-extend the military but not go about trying to fix it until the last minute? More to the point, I'm not directing my comments at a hypothetical, I'm directing my comments at those who want to make an invasion of Iran a very real thing. These are the men I'm calling out as hypocrites."

I understand your point. Your point is those who feel the need for war should participate. I do not disagree. Old white men in Congress who have never been in the military and whose families are not in harms way often look at war in a very detached manner.

My point is while I am not in the military now, I would join if I were called to do so. I am not a drum beater who is not willing to do the heavy lifting. I am not willing to join now within a flawed occupation with no direction. There is a difference in the circumstances that anyone can see here. Army bonuses and divorce rates are not my motivations.

further, it should be no shocker that it is more difficult to recruit and retain to an all volunteer force in a time of conflict. this will always be the case. of course it is not sound military policy to fix a problem later that you know you have now. the Marines have only minor problems. the Navy has no shortages of manpower. the Air Force is offering early discharges and closing bases all over the country. it is a matter of perspective. the Army IS suffering numbers-wise. however it was not built to be an occupation force and that application is what is wearing on it. not heavy casualties or the ability to wage war. you say need. I say they have been misused. there is a huge difference there.

nowhere in this thread have I called for an invasion of Iran. I did say they shouldve blown those little boats to pieces and that the idiots on them are lucky to still be in one piece.

Quote :

"You mean if they institute a draft. Army bonuses are at all time-highs, the need exists, you're just dodging the issue until you're essentially compelled to join. "

compelled is correct. I dont give a shit about bonuses. I am not compelled to join an occupation force. I am compelled to defend my family. what if I joined a branch that was not the Army and not in need? Do I have a lesser opinion than if I did join the Army?

[Edited on January 9, 2008 at 3:29 PM. Reason : . ]

1/9/2008 3:27:13 PM

Quote :

"World Peace: an impossible myth that can never ever ever happen, ever"

i'll agree to this. doesn't mean we need to be the focal point of every modern conflict.

1/9/2008 3:41:09 PM

Quote :

"So you're denying the Cole was destroyed?"

Umm, yeah, I'm going to deny that it was destroyed. Bombed and Crippled in Aden, yes. Destroyed, No.

1/9/2008 4:03:16 PM

Quote :

""World Peace: an impossible myth that can never ever ever happen, ever""

Why not?

Don't assume things will stay the same.

World peace doesn't violate any laws of physics.

1/9/2008 4:28:14 PM

world peace violates laws of human nature

its cute when people think perfect utopias are possible though

1/9/2008 5:17:52 PM

Do you believe human nature is static?

Anyways, I'm off to convince California to declare war on Nevada.

Peace isn't possible, folks! It's only a matter of time...

1/9/2008 6:04:35 PM

naivety ftl

1/9/2008 6:08:51 PM

Quote :

"naivety ftl"

Agreed.

Saying peace is impossible makes about as much sense as saying heavier-than-air flight is impossible.

1/9/2008 6:18:13 PM

Quote :

"My point is while I am not in the military now, I would join if I were called to do so. I am not a drum beater who is not willing to do the heavy lifting. I am not willing to join now within a flawed occupation with no direction. There is a difference in the circumstances that anyone can see here. Army bonuses and divorce rates are not my motivations."

Now, if you'd said this in the beginning we wouldn't have gone through all this You just picked up where Oeuvre left off and I figured you were defending him.

As far as recruitment levels, of course the Navy and the Air Force have no issues, with few exceptions they're not being truly sent into harms way. The Marines will (probably) never have problems on account of their outstanding brand management and the simple fact that they have fewer slots to fill. The Army, however, is the nations primary land warfare component and is in pretty bad shape, so you see where I'm coming from when I argue that you can't simply say that "oh well, only the Army is having trouble meeting recruiting goals."

Quote :

"what if I joined a branch that was not the Army and not in need? Do I have a lesser opinion than if I did join the Army?"

No, I don't have a problem with anyone who serves in some component, or even an organization like the Peace Corps, anything to further our relations (with good will or force) with the world. I do feel however, that the nation (at least in my estimation) has gone from one where personal sacrifice and service was expected at some point in life to one where we're all out to get ours while the getting is good. This isn't healthy for any society and to take that to the extreme, that is profiting off war as the military industrial complex and many in the government have, is . . . well fuck it's beyond words for me.

1/9/2008 6:18:24 PM

world peace is a nice dream but its just that, a dream

1/9/2008 7:06:45 PM

it's even more far-fetched than a dream

1/9/2008 7:15:24 PM

What magically makes the world different from a country?

Is peace within the United States similarly impossible?

1/9/2008 7:24:56 PM

^ Cue "Imagine," control room.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jEOkxRLzBf0

1/10/2008 12:14:19 AM

I'm amused by how y'all apparently realize you can't support your assertion that world peace is impossible.

"GAH, DIRTY HIPPIE! STOP ATTACKING OUR CHERISHED BELIEFS!"

1/10/2008 12:28:28 AM

i'll admit world peace is possible as soon as you admit that iraq might still have WMDs

and "cherished beliefs"? is that what people call common sense nowadays?

1/10/2008 12:31:22 AM

^^ It's also possible that the sun could stop shining tomorrow--but it's not likely.

1/10/2008 12:37:56 AM

Quote :

"i'll admit world peace is possible as soon as you admit that iraq might still have WMDs"

It's possible, sure. However, the WMD question is considerably more limited than the matter of world peace. The future is a hell of a lot bigger than Iraq.

Quote :

"and "cherished beliefs"? is that what people call common sense nowadays?"

Common sense could indeed be called a cherished belief.

Quote :

"^^ It's also possible that the sun could stop shining tomorrow--but it's not likely."

Is it possible? Perhaps by quantum weirdness or alien intervention.

[Edited on January 10, 2008 at 12:40 AM. Reason : hippie]

1/10/2008 12:38:12 AM

how bout this

world peace is extremely and very very very highly unlikely to happen not only in our lifetimes, but ever

1/10/2008 12:47:59 AM

I don't agree with that either.

I don't know about you, but I don't plan on dying any time soon.

And who knows what will happen after the Singularity?

1/10/2008 12:56:59 AM

i dont plan on dying either but just because there is relative peace in north carolina right now doesnt mean 7 billion people will someday all get along

are muslims and jews gonna be friends one day cause clearly thats one of many conflicts that would have to be resolved in order to have world peace

1/10/2008 1:01:42 AM

Quote :

"are muslims and jews everyone else gonna be friends one day cause clearly thats one of many conflicts that would have to be resolved in order to have world peace"

1/10/2008 9:23:41 AM

the iranians released their tape and version of events

1/10/2008 10:30:44 AM

^
Sean Penn directed it.

1/10/2008 10:40:14 AM

^ LOL, nice

1/10/2008 10:46:05 AM

Quote :

"But any ship, no matter how large could potentially be a threat to US warships. "

Its a common occurrence while fishing offshore to hear US Warships alerting the fleet to their presence. I also had the pleasure of hearing a warship threaten a fishing vessel for about an hour to alter course or 'defensive action would be taken' despite the fact that nobody posed a real threat.

1/10/2008 10:59:35 AM

^ Why did it take an hour? When the U.S. Navy warns a vessel to move away, it should immediately do so or explain why it cannot. How are the sailors to know whether a vessel is a threat or not--particularly when it won't comply?

1/10/2008 11:24:12 AM

Quote :

"I'm sick of all these goddamned armchair warriors talking about, "we need to invade this" or "you don't show weakness here" when they have no intetions themselves of bearing any of the burden of "protecting the nation.""

Hell yeah! I'm also pretty fucking tired of all this goddamned loveseat fire chiefs talking about, "we need firefighters" and "boy it would be good if we could put out this fire," when they have no intentions of taking on the burden of a firefighter to "please, God, put out this fire, it's burning all around me"

And I've had it absolutely up to here with these recliner superintendents talking about, "we need more teachers" and "kids can't read," when not a damn one of them has any intention to get certified in teaching to bear the burden of "educating the youth"

[Edited on January 10, 2008 at 11:47 AM. Reason : I also toyed with "futon police commissioner" and "papazan secretary of state"]

1/10/2008 11:46:21 AM

Don't you know that unless you have had direct experience in the field of topic, then you may have no opinion whatsoever on it?

Only women who have had abortions can talk about abortion.

1/10/2008 11:52:09 AM