Quote :

""The Air is just too limited of a target audience... it really is not a remotely practical solution for 99% of the population.""

you know percentage wise he's pretty close

a) you have to have a computer other than the "Mac Air" alone (to install apps, use cd/dvd)
b) you have to have a wireless router
c) when traveling you have to either use a flash drive or lug around a cd/dvd burner which costs you another $99, and kind of defeats the purpose of being lightweight and portable if you have to chug this thing around.

all it is is a big wireless PDA with a full-size keyboard and with a bigger screen

has no real multimedia merit whatsoever, no movies, no games, nothing cpu intensive, but that's what they are going for

it's target? lightweight, ultraportable, small, used for productivity apps (word, power point), wireless internet, email, playing music and that's about it. but for business travelers, this is about all they need. i agree with Noen, the one thing they missed was the price point, it's a very niche market and people though in the market of having the smallest lightest laptop possible will gladly pay the premium.

personally i'd rather have an ASUS eeePC to do these basic functions at 1/4 the cost

[Edited on January 17, 2008 at 5:51 PM. Reason : .]

1/17/2008 5:48:00 PM

Quote :

"a) you have to have a computer other than the "Mac Air" alone (to install apps, use cd/dvd) b) you have to have a wireless router"

This is not a problem for most people, really.

1/17/2008 6:03:36 PM

like i mentioned on the last page, I would only consider the Macbook Air as a "companion" or secondary computer. If I had the money, i actually would gladly use an iMac or Macbook Pro as a primary computer, then have a MB Air as a portable that I would just keep mirrored to my primary machine

1/17/2008 6:08:00 PM

^i think that's the point, it was never designed to be a primary computer

1/17/2008 6:16:39 PM

Quote :

"if you want a valid car comparision comparing a pc to a mac is like comparing a BMW to the same BMW with a 50% markup."

not really.

this is definitely a companion computer, at least in my eyes. i'm more with agentlion on this one

not having a cd/dvd drive is the part that loses me. at this point it just doesn't make sense for software, etc. they'd sell more if they had a drive, i think

[Edited on January 17, 2008 at 6:21 PM. Reason : ]

1/17/2008 6:20:11 PM

^^ yeah, maybe that is/was Apple's intention, but they would never market it as such, and therefore people will, and may be somewhat justified, complain that it does just not have the feature set to serve as your only computer.

I mean, imagine the backlash from the press and consumers if Steve Jobs just came out and said - "The Macbook Air is a wonderful second computer. We expect you to buy one of our more mainstream models, then spend another $1800 for a companion, portable computer".
You think people are complaining now? Jobs would be eviscerated for even suggesting that it is Apple's "expectation" that you use the Air as a 2nd computer.

[Edited on January 17, 2008 at 6:21 PM. Reason : .]

1/17/2008 6:20:57 PM

Quote :

"not having a cd/dvd drive is the part that loses me. at this point it just doesn't make sense for software, etc. they'd sell more if they had a drive, i think"

just the fact that it's missing the drive might be a stopping point, but how often do you use your drive to install software any more? Besides OS X (which comes installed), what do you need a CD for to install? CDs are nice for application suites like iWork, but even those can be downloaded and activated with an electronic key. I don't know if I have a single piece of software on my Mac that I didn't (or can't) download

1/17/2008 6:23:42 PM

^^ Yeah, exactly.

It's a fine companion computer, but not much more, which is why I don't think people will feel it's worth 1800, despite being a good product. hence people calling it the Cube 2.

Which was an excellent design, but for the price, not appealing to most customers.

[Edited on January 17, 2008 at 6:25 PM. Reason : ]

1/17/2008 6:25:24 PM

just imagine how much business they're going to rake in when people realize the only way to watch movies on this thing is to rent/download them from itunes... what a great business plan!

1/17/2008 6:59:43 PM

Quote :

"Wow, so now we cannot even wish they made something different? I thought the whole point was to "think different" and not just "think about only those things which Apple tells you to think about". I anted Apple to go the route I mentioned because I think it would do more to force the hand of other manufacturers. The Air is just too limited of a target audience... it really is not a remotely practical solution for 99% of the population. I really wanted a iPhone-on-steroids tablet (minus the phone part), some new displays, and a more complete home theater PC. These are things that I do want and Apple is the company that push the creativity and attention to those avenues. Being happy with everything they put out is not going to encourage "bigger and better" development. Quit telling me to be a fucking sheep."

first, think different is one thing and bitch is another. You say you want xyz and you won't buy it until it has xyz. A year down the road xyz is added and according to you, you will buy it. But no, thats not good enough because now you've added abc and won't buy it until abc is built in. You're just bitching for the sake of bitching. You will never buy any electornic with your way of thinking because its never good enough.

Live with what we have now and look forward for the future.

and your sheep comment is older than the earth. Sheep is hating on something because everyone else does too. Windows sucks i'm going to be a rebel and use linux! you and every other asshat out there.

Quote :

" Being happy with everything they put out is not going to encourage "bigger and better" development."

yeah ok...who here is happy with everything they put out? certainly not me. I only buy what I'm happy with and that would be a Macbook Pro and an iPhone. I didn't buy a macbook because its a useless POS thats not much smaller than a macbook pro and looks like ass minus all the performance. Now a macbook air is a step in the right direction because its significantly smaller than my macbook pro and it would be extremely mobile. do i care about the other 99%? no because i'm only interested in what suits me. Just like everyone else out there. If it doesn't work for you don't buy it. But don't knock it because it doesn't work for you.

Also i don't have an apple tv because again, thats another useless pos. But now with the movie rentals i'm more interested in an apple tv then i was before...still i probably won't buy one until they add more functionality to it.

So next time before you call someone a sheep think again.

oh and a iMac because its replaced my desktop and takes up less space, makes less noise and puts out a lot less heat.

[Edited on January 17, 2008 at 7:06 PM. Reason : .]

1/17/2008 7:00:54 PM

I barely use my cd/dvd drive on my laptop. When I was in high school with my dell latitude 400, I just housed 2 batteries and no optical drive. If I wanted to play something or run a cd, I just plop it in a network accessible optical drive from my main desktop at the time.

A coworker of mine, whose a product manager, says it's really targeting internet cafer's in large metropolitan areas or business elitists. He's considering of getting to compliment his macbook pro. He travels from the states to UK and China a lot so having something that small is ideal for him. Even my boss, VP of marketing, commends the product and is also thinking of getting it for ease and convenience.

1/17/2008 8:10:16 PM

Quote :

"c) when traveling you have to either use a flash drive or lug around a cd/dvd burner which costs you another $99, and kind of defeats the purpose of being lightweight and portable if you have to chug this thing around."

The USB cd/dvd drive they sell (bus powered) is a lot cheaper than the ones lenovo sells with there's. Most of the highest-rated and most popular ultralites don't have built in optical drives. The Lifebook from fujitsu and X60 series lenovo laptops come to mind.

Just looked it up and the targus ones that you can get for the x60's (or any other pc ultralite) run for about 180 for the combo drive versions and over 250 for the dvd burners. Bus powered optical drives are crazy expensive, so that 100 dollar one they sell is a fairly good deal.

[Edited on January 17, 2008 at 9:28 PM. Reason : ]

1/17/2008 9:17:24 PM

i bought an x41t without a drive

networked storage and optical drives work just as well

1/17/2008 9:50:35 PM

other than installing applications...when do you ever really need to use a disc? If i'm traveling I rip any DVD i might want to watch to my iPhone/iTunes so i don't have to lug around discs. Music = mp3's and transferring data = flash drives.

1/17/2008 11:43:02 PM

Plus using an optical drive on the go absolutely kills your battery.

1/18/2008 9:32:20 AM

good demonstration of the Air's multi-touch trackpad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0s_yV5N35aA

1/18/2008 11:33:49 AM

I'd rather buy a happy meal than get a Mac.

1/18/2008 11:38:46 AM

watch your mouth, I'm a happy meal fanboy.

1/18/2008 12:26:09 PM

Quote :

"other than installing applications...when do you ever really need to use a disc? "

like I said earlier, how many applications do you actually have on your computer that you didn't/can't download instead.

Same thing happened back when the original iMac came out without a floppy drive. OMG THERE'S NO FLOPPY DRIVE HOW CAN YOU SURVIVE!!!

now, obviously this is a bit different, in that floppies were arguably on their way out back then (even though they remained in PCs, mostly as useless space fillers, for years), and I don't think the Macbook Air is going to usher in an optical-driveless era. But, with nearly all software available for download and movies and tv available for purchase or rental by download, an optical drive is no longer a "must have" for most computers

1/18/2008 1:27:46 PM

I love how you guys, especially moron and Prospero, project your needs onto every product and assume that is the market.

This thing hits its target, plain and simple. Apple laptop buyers are not power users. This device is to extend casual stylish electronics from the ipod touch and iphone to a notebook.

It can use an external dvd drive, which is all anyone needs. I might have used a dvdrom on a computer 2 or 3 times for non-burning in the last five years. maybe.

It will sell, but its not going to be the ipod of laptops market-share wise, and its not intended to be

1/18/2008 1:49:17 PM

Quote :

"like I said earlier, how many applications do you actually have on your computer that you didn't/can't download instead. Same thing happened back when the original iMac came out without a floppy drive. OMG THERE'S NO FLOPPY DRIVE HOW CAN YOU SURVIVE!!! now, obviously this is a bit different, in that floppies were arguably on their way out back then (even though they remained in PCs, mostly as useless space fillers, for years), and I don't think the Macbook Air is going to usher in an optical-driveless era. But, with nearly all software available for download and movies and tv available for purchase or rental by download, an optical drive is no longer a "must have" for most computers"

I only mentioned apps because of the occasional user that needs to install their copy of Office Student Teacher off of the discs.

1/18/2008 1:54:24 PM

Quote :

"I love how you guys, especially moron and Prospero, project your needs onto every product and assume that is the market."

yeah, the same argument could be made against tech columnists and pundits who go on and on about lack of expandability or user-accessible battery, blah blah blah.

Guess what - nobody except for geeks give a shit about swapping batteries, replacing hard drives, and upgrading RAM on laptops, and the Air is obviously not targeted for geeks, at least not as primary machines.

I mean, my wife's MacBook has a removable battery and hard drive. whopp-de-freaking-doo. She doesn't give a shit if she can replace the battery. What do 95% of computer buyers do when their battery or hard drive dies anyway? They take it to the store for repair! And once it's at the store, what the fuck do you care if the technicians have to take the case apart to get to the internals?

1/18/2008 2:53:38 PM

Quote :

"has no real multimedia merit whatsoever, no movies, no games, nothing cpu intensive, but that's what they are going for"

Wait you can't even play movies on it?

1/18/2008 3:18:01 PM

rented ones you download you can, but how bout all those DVD's you own?

Quote :

"I love how you guys, especially moron and Prospero, project your needs onto every product and assume that is the market."

i never said anything about it not working for the market it was intended for, i said that the market was too narrow

Quote :

"Guess what - nobody except for geeks give a shit about swapping batteries, replacing hard drives, and upgrading RAM on laptops"

i hate to say it but that's bullshit, my DAD of all people who can barely use his iPod, asks me about swapping his laptop hard drive, memory and battery for his old laptop

[Edited on January 18, 2008 at 3:25 PM. Reason : .]

1/18/2008 3:21:16 PM

i don't think the business laptop user is all that narrow

[Edited on January 18, 2008 at 3:25 PM. Reason : you edited]

1/18/2008 3:24:19 PM

well when you have a company that can support and pay for these laptops, then it's a no-brainer

1/18/2008 3:27:07 PM

Quote :

"i hate to say it but that's bullshit, my DAD of all people who can barely use his iPod, asks me about swapping his laptop hard drive, memory and battery for his old laptop"

wow, outstanding. Do you have any more anecdotal evidence you would like to use against common statistics?
seriously - most people don't even know the difference between a hard drive and memory, and wouldn't even begin to think of replacing a laptop battery themselves

1/18/2008 3:30:58 PM

i'm using the same evidence you did...

Quote :

"I mean, my wife's MacBook has a removable battery and hard drive. whopp-de-freaking-doo. She doesn't give a shit if she can replace the battery."

i mean come on, they have the mac book pro for performance related functions, the mac book for the average user, the mac air perfectly fits in with their product-line i think it's a perfect compliment

Quote :

"it's target? lightweight, ultraportable, small, used for productivity apps (word, power point), wireless internet, email, playing music and that's about it. but for business travelers, this is about all they need"

[Edited on January 18, 2008 at 3:40 PM. Reason : .]

1/18/2008 3:32:13 PM

Quote :

"most people don't even know the difference between a hard drive and memory, and wouldn't even begin to think of replacing a laptop battery themselves"

My mom really had no idea about what the best upgrade was for the HD or Ram on her mac book pro so we went into the apple store and the guy told us a bunch of people ask about upgrading the ram/HD in apple laptops, and what he usually does is refer them to crucial.com instead of going through apple because it's cheaper. In fact most people i know with apple laptops have upgraded either the ram or HD.


[Edited on January 18, 2008 at 3:43 PM. Reason : .]

1/18/2008 3:39:24 PM

ok, for anyone worried about the MBA battery, it looks like it is fairly easily replaceable, if not swappable.
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/01/18/sources_macbook_air_battery_replacements_take_only_minutes.html

1/18/2008 4:48:58 PM

very nice

1/18/2008 4:54:01 PM

I've never replaced a rechargeable battery in any device I own, between a laptop, cell phone, and iPod.

1/18/2008 5:00:54 PM

^I've replace an iPod battery, cell phone battery, and quite a few batteries among multiple laptops.

Here's the biggest advantage to having a quickly swappable laptop battery in a laptop ... you can use it for twice as long between recharges by carrying an extra battery! This is helpful on long flights or trips where you may not have an ability to recharge. It's really not a difficult concept.

1/18/2008 5:07:10 PM

This could be viable in the next few years. 40 Hour long batteries, who'd need to change them out, unless you plan on taking a trip to the moon?

http://www.dailytech.com/Stanford+Researchers+Build+Lithiumion+Battery+Using+Silicon/article10088.htm

Btw Prospero, just because you're dad wants to upgrade his storage, doesn't mean he will ultimately do it himself. He'll get someone who knows how to do it, like you, or pay money for a tech to do it. There ergo showing that a geek would still be doing the replacing, that means you. :p

But it is becoming a trend that regular computer users are upgrading themselves or learning how to. We've all be absorbed into a very technological society and besides, users see it as saving money rather then paying someone else to do a very simple task. I've seen many people refer to PC tech's as just another "plummer" fixing something that goes wrong.

[Edited on January 18, 2008 at 6:14 PM. Reason : ]

1/18/2008 6:10:58 PM

Quote :

"Btw Prospero, just because you're dad wants to upgrade his storage, doesn't mean he will ultimately do it himself. He'll get someone who knows how to do it, like you, or pay money for a tech to do it. There ergo showing that a geek would still be doing the replacing, that means you."

but the issue isn't an issue if you can't physically do it. most people i know want to be able to do it or at least "have it done" that was the point... i'd gather most people don't want to throw away an $1800 computer every 2 years because the li-ion battery died or only holds a charge for 30 min... and who the heck do you know can't swap out a battery? most have just a little tab for it, slide, pull, remove, push new one in til it clicks.

[Edited on January 18, 2008 at 6:38 PM. Reason : .]

1/18/2008 6:33:52 PM

Quote :

"and who the heck do you know can't swap out a battery? most have just a little tab for it, slide, pull, remove, push new one in til it clicks."

Non-user replaceable batteries means just that. A large percentage of people won't be willing to change out the batteries themselves either because of time constraint, lack of knowledge, fear of fucking something up, or void their warranty. Even if it only takes a tech 3 mins to change it out doesn't mean the user can.

In general terms, if it requires a screw driver, most people won't screw around with it. Push tabs, latches or thumb screws usually indicate user-replacement is intuitive (not always though, I've seen some pretty difficult products for the end-user that used these methods. More so in the medical industry, but people in that market segment tend to be techs anyhow.)


Think in terms of servicing a car. Say doing a motor swap (in simplicity form). To a tech, that's just a day's work. To a enthusiast, that could be a few days. To a typical driver that doesn't know anything about the car, it could take him a year. This is just an example and time frame shouldn't be taken as fact.

1/18/2008 7:08:10 PM

i think you're wrong there, a battery swap ain't even close to an engine swap, when i think engine swap i think cpu swap.

not many laptops i've seen require screwdrivers to remove them, i think you're thinking hard drive / memory, i mean isn't that the point of a laptop is to be portable = away from a plug... surely there are business laptop users that use multiple batteries and hot swap them on a regular basis

1/18/2008 7:16:14 PM

Battery Swap is like an oil change or Flat tire change. Its easy but not everyone does it for themselves

1/18/2008 7:17:25 PM

On the contrary, a battery swap is more like changing your wiper blades ... unclip and slide off old blade then slide on new blade until it clicks, vs, depress button and slide out old battery then slide in new battery until it clicks.

I'm always amazed at people who don't change wiper blades themselves. I'm always frustrated at people who never get their wiper blades changed. Seriously, you need to see out of the front windshield!

Fwiw, an oil change DOES require some knowledge of what your doing and can be difficult/awkward for some cars, especially newer ones. And you have to dispose of the oil properly, a lot of people don't want the inconvenience. But it is easy, true.

[Edited on January 18, 2008 at 7:23 PM. Reason : /done]

1/18/2008 7:21:09 PM

Jesus Christ people, I was just trying to illustrate the same task to varying skill level in simple terms. Not comparing the idea of the battery swapping is on the same tech level as an engine swap.

Quote :

"not many laptops i've seen require screwdrivers to remove them"

True, but the macbook air isn't like every laptop out there...

Quote :

"Battery Swap is like an oil change or Flat tire change. Its easy but not everyone does it for themselves"

I like that, but since a car has an actually battery, how bout we just compare the idea that changing a battery in a laptop is like changing a battery in a car... :p

Quote :

"a battery swap is more like changing your wiper blades"

I like that comparison too.

1/18/2008 7:31:25 PM

so.... having a non-replaceable battery is like having wiper blades that are permanent, forcing people to buy new cars every 3-6 months (if they choose to be able to drive in the rain)

i know the article above pointed out it can be done, i just liked the analogy, lol

[Edited on January 18, 2008 at 7:39 PM. Reason : .]

1/18/2008 7:39:26 PM

Having it non-user replaceable doesn't mean it'll force the user to get a whole new product, just means you have to pay someone to service it, or require the work to be under warranty (if applicable).

Or... you can drive Ace-Ventura style...

1/18/2008 7:42:22 PM

i did say that at the end of my post. ^nice pic

[Edited on January 18, 2008 at 7:44 PM. Reason : .]

1/18/2008 7:43:36 PM

but it's not really forcing the consumer for a task that can't be done. It's not like they super glue the chassis shut.

I think what most people fear were when they had the same Li-poly battery in the 3rd (was it 3rd gen?) iPod and crapped out just after a year or so. Li-poly batteries weren't really proven techs back then and I think now, they are a bit more advanced then earlier days. They have to be, otherwise products like these will bomb. Even if they were user-replaceable. But, that's speculation. (no flame plz! )

1/18/2008 7:54:04 PM

Quote :

"and who the heck do you know can't swap out a battery? most have just a little tab for it, slide, pull, remove, push new one in til it clicks."

You would be surprised at the number of people who would rather someone else did it for them, "just incase..."

1/18/2008 10:58:25 PM

^I'm continually amazed at how many people I have to show how to replace the battery in a thinkpad. Thinkpads have some of the most easily swapped parts (well the 60 series laptops' memory isn't as accessible) and people still don't want to screw with it.

1/18/2008 11:11:22 PM

haha, I was helping a friend out with his laptop and because it crashed. I told him to unplug the power cable and disconnect the battery. Did that, but when it came time to put the battery back in, he was trying to put it in backwards. I was just standing their looking at him amazed. I mean, he took the out himself... After 30 seconds, I just started laughing my ass off and said "no no, gotta turn it around". Btw, he's an engineer. LOL

[Edited on January 19, 2008 at 2:41 PM. Reason : ]

1/19/2008 2:40:51 PM

Quote :

"shameless plug, we'll be liveblogging it as always http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/15/live-from-macworld-2008-steve-jobs-keynote/"

Apparently, y'all got beat

http://www.digg.com/apple/Two_Part_Timers_Beat_Engadget_and_Gizmodo_s_Keynote_Coverage

1/23/2008 4:12:30 PM

$1800 is a lot of money to spend on a "companion" computer

but then, the kind of person who would purchase the air at that price really has nothing else to do with their money or their time, which is really the group of people apple tries to target - those with large amounts of disposable income and a lack of common sense (because, after all, why buy something with the same lack of features for 25-50% of the cost when you can pay boatloads for "pretty"?)

1/23/2008 4:26:32 PM

Quote :

"but then, the kind of person who would purchase the air at that price really has nothing else to do with their money or their time, which is really the group of people apple tries to target - those with large amounts of disposable income and a lack of common sense (because, after all, why buy something with the same lack of features for 25-50% of the cost when you can pay boatloads for "pretty"?) "

LOL, bitter much?

1/23/2008 4:40:29 PM