those guys actually do have things in common...political or not...most people have SOME things in common

except for Wright and Obama...that is the one exception

6/11/2008 4:58:47 PM

there are actually lots of ideas that wright has that are pretty good.

unfortunately some of his other ideas aren't all that palatable to most of the country (and some are just stupid and tinfoil hattish)

6/11/2008 5:01:07 PM

so is Wright a racist or not? you were quick to interrupt my point earlier to mention that my assertion of Wright being a racist was both "stupid and unfounded" without giving any further thought to my actual question...care to elaborate now?

6/11/2008 5:10:33 PM

oh actually i had a response to that and then saw that you had responded to a different question and didn't actually post it.

yes, some of what wright has said is racist. but more of the brand of racism that just reinforces that races are homogeneous. he is also very suspicious of the gov't (sometimes to a terrible fault). this kinda makes sense considering the age in which he grew up and the tuskegee experiments and all, but it is still mostly stupid and wrong.

and the "stupid and unfounded" part was saying that there was any evidence to link the racist things that wright has said with anything that obama has said or done

[Edited on June 11, 2008 at 5:14 PM. Reason : .]

6/11/2008 5:13:39 PM

my only point is that theres a double standard...and i'm not talking about comparing bush to mccain...i'll concede that any politician to politician associations are fair game

but i dont know how anyone could not recognize a double standard in which bush and cheney get labelled a certain way because they have done business with oil companies, but obama is immune from any suspicion even though he has "done business" with a racist who clearly has some things he strongly dislikes about the country?

you'll see more and more of these double standards over the next few months, and the next few years if Obama gets elected...the same things that people criticized Bush over will get turned around and Obama will get criticized over them...just like Clinton before Bush, and Bush before Clinton...the key is being able to see the double standards instead of ignoring them just because they might make your preferred candidate seem less than perfect (see Boone)

6/11/2008 5:16:33 PM

well the halliburton connection is simple: the us military and state dept. have HUGE no-bid contracts with halliburton

6/11/2008 5:19:40 PM

That relationship has existed for a long time. No one here has been able to produce any data indicating that Halliburton received a higher percentage of contracts under the current administration.

6/11/2008 5:21:51 PM

and it's not a question of the % of contracts, it's a question of motivation for going into iraq, which obviously HUGELY profited halliburton

[Edited on June 11, 2008 at 5:24 PM. Reason : .]

6/11/2008 5:23:34 PM

What other companies are capable of such large scale and rapid mobilization that already have the security clearances to operate in hostile regions? its not like you can afford to rebuild a country by having months and months of permitting and bidding processes as if you were just building a skyscraper in Indiana...time is of the essence

I'd also be curious to see similar graphs for other companies, since I'm sure they all went up in 2003 as we went into Iraq

6/11/2008 5:27:19 PM

Yes, it is a question of percentage. I can think of many companies that have made money of off the Iraq war. Hell, I've made money off of it by investing in the stock of those companies.

There aren't terribly many companies in Halliburton's sector, I'd like to see information showing that an unfair number of contracts were given to them instead of to their competitors.

6/11/2008 5:30:14 PM

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/06/by_the_numbers.html

i liked this article

6/12/2008 5:02:20 AM

These guys were always chilling together.

And I randomly choose for their common bond to be hairstyles.

Clearly they had similar hairstyles.

I mean, they hung out all the time. That's all the evidence I need.



These guys, too. Their random similarity is their fashion sensibilities.

This game it fun-- I take two people who associate with each other, and then randomly assign the attributes of one to the other, regardless of evidence.

I could do this all day.

I might, in fact.


Tree: "BUT BOONE, all these guys do have something in common!"

But the fun comes when you selectively assign attributes. For example-- I'd be rather fair to assume that Obama shared a religious view here and there with Wright. I'm sure you could find evidence of that somewhere.

The fun comes in when you randomly select attributes that bolster your world view, without any regards to evidence!




[Edited on June 12, 2008 at 7:54 AM. Reason : fun times!]

6/12/2008 7:45:43 AM

Bono is such a douche

6/12/2008 8:43:43 AM

And the douchiness has nothing to do with his association with Bush.

6/12/2008 8:46:39 AM

with my experiences ive discovered douches hang out together.

6/12/2008 8:47:21 AM

again

Quote :

" and it's not a question of the % of contracts, it's a question of motivation for going into iraq,"

i'm not saying that we shouldn't have necessarily used halliburton, i'm saying that halliburton obviously greatly benefited from the iraq war happening, and it just so happened someone very close to them had a big hand in making the iraq war happen.

6/12/2008 11:22:10 AM

http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/12/news/economy/president_poll/index.htm?cnn=yes

Quote :

"Voters favor Obama's economic policy - poll Democratic presidential candidate holds slight edge over GOP rival McCain on key election issue."

Who the hell are they polling welfare moms that are sitting at home at 3pm to answer cnn polls, when they should be at work???

Who the fuck else than liberals and ignorant poor people who lack any grasp on how the economy works favor Obama's policy.

Obama's Plan

-Increase taxes on theRich upper middle class families, professionals, or thrifty individuals that made smarter economic decisions over the years.

- Create $50 Billion more in "stimulus" money to hand out as rebate checks and put toward entitlement spending.

- Force the entire labor force to subsidize healthcare for irresponsible parents who are not providing necessities for their children i.e. healthcare insurance.

- Create windfall taxes on oil companies more for doing their job. (When he should be opening up the AWNR and creating favorable tax policies that encourage people to utilize alternative energy methods for more fuel efficient cars.)

- Increase the income cap that is taxed for social security. Thus forcing those who likely will never need social security to fund all the individuals who make poor financial decisions, neglecting to save for their own retirement.

This plan sounds great if I am an unambitious/lazy/unintelligent American who is making $9/hour working at the laundromat. How wonderful if more successful people then me had to pay more taxes to help increasingly subsidize my standard of living.

[Edited on June 12, 2008 at 1:07 PM. Reason : l]

[Edited on June 12, 2008 at 1:20 PM. Reason : l]

6/12/2008 1:04:30 PM

Let me feign outrage at your caricaturization of his economic policies.

6/12/2008 1:08:51 PM

good summary HUR.

Sarijoul. Do you think we invade Iraq without 9/11?

6/12/2008 1:14:21 PM

Quote :

"good summary HUR."

Now I understand why you don't have an issue with Fox News. You think caricatures of policies like HUR's, with no solid facts behind them are good summaries? Agree with them or not, what you just said was a good summary had very little ties to reality.

6/12/2008 1:29:02 PM

you must have not read the link

6/12/2008 1:42:51 PM

Monky, what did he post that was inaccurate in your opinion? If you think the only people paying more in taxes under Obama with his spending proposals are people making over 250k, youve got some serious issues.

There is a behavior called burrowing. I see many on here display it. Its best summed up by the phrase, "My mind is made up, dont confuse me with facts."

We all have our biases, but ignoring facts is dangerous.

Do you really feel that raising the taxes on gas will lower prices? One "golden rule" is that if you want LESS of something you tax it MORE.

6/12/2008 2:49:45 PM

There two links were posted in another thread along with a chart:

http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/11/news/economy/candidates_taxproposals_tpc/index.htm
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/jun2008/db20080611_220050.htm?chan=rss_topStories_ssi_5

It is clear from those studies that people making less than 100k actually save more money under Obama's plans than McCain's. If you make more than that the difference is marginal until you go above 230k.

As far as HUR's post, here goes:

Quote :

"Increase taxes on theRich upper middle class families, professionals, or thrifty individuals that made smarter economic decisions over the years."

This smacks of economic elitism and really tears at me. To say that poor people are poor just because they haven't made smart economic decisions is wrong.

Quote :

" - Force the entire labor force to subsidize healthcare for irresponsible parents who are not providing necessities for their children i.e. healthcare insurance. "

Yes, once again we see that universal healthcare only benefits irresponsible people. Right? I guess that means you won't get healthcare if everyone else in the country does? Get over yourself and contribute to society.

Quote :

"When he should be opening up the AWNR and creating favorable tax policies that encourage people to utilize alternative energy methods for more fuel efficient cars."

Why try to increase supply for something that we need to run away from as quickly as possible? Your statement reads something like, "Give michael jackson some more children to sleep with while lining up younger looking adults in the hope that he'll transfer to them willingly."

Quote :

"Increase the income cap that is taxed for social security. Thus forcing those who likely will never need social security to fund all the individuals who make poor financial decisions, neglecting to save for their own retirement."

I don't have a problem asking the rich to pay a little more to help sustain those people that helped make them rich in the first place.

Quote :

" This plan sounds great if I am an unambitious/lazy/unintelligent American who is making $9/hour working at the laundromat. How wonderful if more successful people then me had to pay more taxes to help increasingly subsidize my standard of living."

This just makes you sound like even more of an ignorant-generalizing dick.

6/12/2008 3:41:53 PM

"poor" people can become wealthy through smart decisions and saving. Do you doubt that? The best way to be wealthy is to work hard and have good spending/saving habits. Youll find that the majority of poor dont.

Some actually consider healthcare a motive to work. It does burn me up when I work to get insurance, have taxes taken out to pay for some who choose not to work.. and they get better coverage. But thats just me being an ass I suppose.

You increase supply to lower costs in the short term. No one is saying not to find ways off of it. The one thing we dont need to do is increase taxes on it.

Quote :

"I don't have a problem asking the rich to pay a little more "

Geez. Thats bc its not your money. You not having a problem to helping yourself to someone else's property is disturbing and unfortunately a growing way of thinking and becoming acceptable. Sad.

I do appreciate you addressing the issues. but what HUR posted is pretty much what he is proposing.. but it just doesnt sound the same without all the fluff in it.

6/12/2008 4:02:06 PM

Quote :

"poor" people can become wealthy through smart decisions and saving"

come on eyedrb that might require foregoing getting the latest blackberry; holding off on that 42" LCD TV purchase; getting a new car instead of a used model, or not buying a handle of hennesey every week. how dare you expect americans to sacrifice discretionary spending in order to save for retirement and pay for health insurance when we have plenty of wealthy americans who can easily pay for everyone else with higher taxes!

6/12/2008 4:19:35 PM

Quote :

"Do you think we invade Iraq without 9/11?"

of course i can't know for sure. but 9/11 whipped people into a bit of a hawkish fervor and certainly made it easier to make the case to most americans. i think though that bush would have probably made the case for an iraq war regardless.

Quote :

"come on eyedrb that might require foregoing getting the latest blackberry; holding off on that 42" LCD TV purchase; getting a new car instead of a used model, or not buying a handle of hennesey every week. how dare you expect americans to sacrifice discretionary spending in order to save for retirement and pay for health insurance when we have plenty of wealthy americans who can easily pay for everyone else with higher taxes!"

i invite you to go into actual POOR person's home. very few of them have anywhere near the luxuries that you're showing here.

[Edited on June 12, 2008 at 4:24 PM. Reason : .]

6/12/2008 4:22:52 PM

I just bought a 42" LCD TV like 2 hours ago what have I done D:

6/12/2008 4:37:05 PM

"Rich people plan for three generations. Poor people plan for saturday night." Gloria Steinem

Sarijoul. Look up the average "poor" person in this country. There is a big list that says most have two cars, cable tvs, cell phones, etc. Live in a house bigger than the average in Europe, etc. Ill find the link if youd like when I have more time.

Sarijoul, well they might have invaded anyways. THere was alot of drum beating by clinton/gore in the years before W even ran. My question to thsoe that think we went to war to profit cheney, bush or his friends is If you believe they invaded for profit, do you believe they did or allowed 9/11 to happen to allow the invasion? I dont think either are case.

sarijoul, you woudl be surprised at the clothes and cars I see that come in on our medicaid day. It will piss you off.

[Edited on June 12, 2008 at 4:45 PM. Reason : .]

6/12/2008 4:43:59 PM

Quote :

"sarijoul, you woudl be surprised at the clothes and cars I see that come in on our medicaid day. It will piss you off."

some of the actual poverty i've seen has pissed me off far more than that would, i'm sure.

6/12/2008 4:48:53 PM

really. Do describe what you've seen. Or PM me with it, since this isnt the thread for it.

6/12/2008 4:50:09 PM

Quote :

"i invite you to go into actual POOR person's home. very few of them have anywhere near the luxuries that you're showing here."

I've been in many. A solid majority of them live up to what HUR and eyedrb have just laid down. Money is very often carelessly spent on luxury items so that the family can tell themselves that they aren't poor and thus remove a lot of the motivation to work hard and save.

6/12/2008 4:57:50 PM

i present basically the entire town of timmonsville, sc

it is (almost literally) a town of shacks. there are not many flatscreens or new cars to be found here.

there are some areas of raleigh that are bad, but nothing that even approaches this town. it literally depressed me that this sort of poverty persists in this country.

oh, except for the neighborhood of mcmansions on the other side of a lake. that stark contrast almost made it worse

[Edited on June 12, 2008 at 5:05 PM. Reason : .]

6/12/2008 5:04:14 PM

^ I've seen some pretty depressing poverty on reservations out west. You'd be surprised:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_poorest_places_in_the_United_States

How would you explain the poverty in Timmonsville?

[Edited on June 12, 2008 at 5:18 PM. Reason : .]

6/12/2008 5:18:11 PM

Quote :

""poor" people can become wealthy through smart decisions and saving. Do you doubt that? The best way to be wealthy is to work hard and have good spending/saving habits. Youll find that the majority of poor dont."

People either learn these habits from their surroundings or are taught these habits. Most people don't naturally know these things. A person born to a poor family is much less likely to have the framework available to learn these things than someone born in a middle class family.

While there are faults, no legislators sit around thinking "lets give poor people money" they try to think of ways to encourage them to get their own money. You're probably heard the phrase "it takes money to make money" which is generally the case (even in a non-literal sense).

You don't really ever hear the voice of the poor, because they have no way to disseminate it. But if you watch/listen to some of the This American Life radio/tv/podcasts, poor people don't know that they're doing anything wrong, and don't know where to look to find out. At the very least, you must see how in that kind of situation, someone going in their to advise them could be meaingfully helpful. I don't see corporations lining up to do it (because there's no profit, at least not directly), which is why gov. exists.

[Edited on June 12, 2008 at 5:33 PM. Reason : ]

6/12/2008 5:31:30 PM

Quote :

"People either learn these habits from their surroundings or are taught these habits. Most people don't naturally know these things. A person born to a poor family is much less likely to have the framework available to learn these things than someone born in a middle class family. While there are faults, no legislators sit around thinking "lets give poor people money" they try to think of ways to encourage them to get their own money"

So you think when americas poor people received their $600-$1200 rebate checks they used this money to progress their education or invested it into their own/children's future. I have no problem spending money on education and providing opportunities for people in poverty to get their ball rolling. We are however, talking about a totally different issue. Simply subsidizing expenses health/housing/food/retirement or flat out handing people money does not provide the motivation or education for people to better their lives and become less dependant on gov't handouts.

[Edited on June 12, 2008 at 5:42 PM. Reason : l]

[Edited on June 12, 2008 at 5:43 PM. Reason : l]

6/12/2008 5:42:17 PM

I agree completely. I think that the best response is to include a heavy amount of personal finance education into the public school curriculum. I thinks it's just senseless that so many bright kids graduate from high school and immediately spend themselves into substantial debt with predatory credit card offers. As far as adults I would have no objection to some sort of government funded personal finance planning for people below a certain income level.

6/12/2008 5:42:23 PM

Quote :

"So you think when americas poor people received their $600-$1200 rebate checks they used this money to progress their education or invested it into their own/children's future."

These checks went to middle class people too, and are a different issue in general than welfare-type programs.

6/12/2008 5:44:56 PM

^^ out of many of my friends which are either graduated from college or about to graduate; i'd say about half do not have my understanding of managing finances. Just yesterday i had a convo with a friend where i tried to explain how investing in the stock market works and how it is not just random luck like playing the lottery.

^
no doubt; this does not change my point though. i agree with your comment on education. however, i think it is short sighted to beleive that simply providing the bottom quarter of our population with less of a tax burden and more gov't socialized services will spark a lightbulb in their head to be like "ohh now that the US gov't subsidizes my housing and gives me more money for food stamps; i can now go back to school and further my education to become a productive member of community. I will also learn how to responsibly manage my finances.

I honestly think they need to teach personnal financing and more vocational classes in public schools; instead of over-saturating students with crap in order to pass those stupid end-of-year tests. oh boy my congressional district had a 6% increase in reading and math test scores; re-elect me in 08 b.c i proved our students are doing better!

[Edited on June 12, 2008 at 5:51 PM. Reason : l]

6/12/2008 5:45:38 PM

^ I'm the same way. I have friends who can't comprehend why I make a decent amount of money but still make sure that I live on a tight and relatively small budget. In fact, right now I'm wearing a shirt that I found on the irregular rack at J&Rs Tobacco Outlet for $7.

One of the best experiences I had in high school was the day that our chemistry teacher (who had formerly worked in finance) explained to the class how IRAs, Roth IRAs, 401ks, etc worked. You can take all of the econ classes that you want, but the vast majority of that material has nothing to do with paying your bills and limiting spending.

6/12/2008 5:51:15 PM

don't get me wrong; i spend money on shit that could be considered frivolous spending (going out to eat, brand name clothes, expensive bar tabs on occasion, gas to hit up the beach for a night), however, i do not do it with money i know i need for necessities. As well I know the basics on investing my money and planning.

[Edited on June 12, 2008 at 5:57 PM. Reason : l]

6/12/2008 5:56:51 PM

These guys are agreeing on how awesome it would be if there were a bunch of nukes on Cuba.

6/12/2008 8:25:05 PM

The poor in this country dont have a monopoly on poor spending and saving habits. What I will say that they do have a monopoly on is a sense of entitlment and a general attitude that they have little control over the success in thier lives.

I too feel that financial classes need to be taught in school. I was 28 before I started getting into budgets, saving, and finances. My one saving grace was "learning" that credit card debt was a disaster as I watched my dad go through bankruptcy bc of them. Ive never carried a balance on CC. I try to tell people what all Ive recently learned about savings and spending. Some are ready to hear it, most arent.

I would say that the number one reason, other than spending/saving habits, that poor people remain poor is their attitude and lack of eduction level. THere is a graph showing the lifetime average income of the different levels of education over a lifetime. You double your income by just graduating high school. And the trend continues as they get more education. But to sit around and give constant excuses of why the CANT do anything about thier life or spending is just enabling another generation of dependents in this country.

Quote :

"no legislators sit around thinking "lets give poor people money""

LOL, you ever heard of buying votes? That is exactly what some do. "listen what I can do for you."

Quote :

"You're probably heard the phrase "it takes money to make money" which is generally the case (even in a non-literal sense). "

Funny I was always taught you had to work to make money. Work harder or longer...more money. Amazing magical formula.

6/12/2008 8:41:00 PM

check out pakistan...no matter who wins the durkas hate us

6/13/2008 5:34:55 AM

^ one more reason not to vote for obama.

6/13/2008 9:09:16 AM

Yea, let's further tarnish our image abroad and make it hard to work with the rest of the world. And while more and more people pull out of the dollar we can just sink into sub-mediocrity while Asia and Scandinavia outplay every move we make for the next hundred years.

6/13/2008 9:18:14 AM

^ you're right. We should issue ballots to European countries.

6/13/2008 9:30:56 AM

Quote :

"A new number from the latest Hotline/Diageo poll goes a long way toward dispelling the idea that Barack Obama is leading a seriously divided party. On the contrary, the poll suggests that it's John McCain who has a problem in this regard. The poll, conducted in the wake of Obama's clinching the nomination and including sampling dates from before Hillary Clinton's final concession, found that 68% of Democratic primary voters were satisfied with Obama as the nominee, with 30% preferring someone else. By contrast, only 52% of Republican primary voters were satisfied with John McCain as their nominee, with 45% preferring someone else. And this is despite the fact that McCain sewed up his nomination months ago, while Democratic emotions were still raw when this poll was conducted. "

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/06/poll_dems_satisfied_with_obama.php

6/13/2008 9:36:24 AM

most are poor because they choose to as a result of a collection of the choices made throughout their lives.

THERE ARE OBVIOUSLY SOME EXCEPTIONS, but most had no motivation to educate themselves in school and in life. you have to seek out answers and education in life. you have to make the effort to receive it. it is out there.

that said, our schools do a terrible job in teaching kids how to 'grow up.' Dr. Huggard's personal finance class should be mandatory for every high school senior.

6/13/2008 9:37:59 AM

Obama leads in most polls by 5 - 6 points (after nomination) and was trailing by 1 before the nomination. Historically, bumps between 10 and 12 points were the norm after becoming the presumptive nominee. Obama's was far less and resembles Bob Dole's bump in 1996.

If that's any indication, it may mean good news for McCain... he needs some.

6/13/2008 9:40:40 AM

McCain has a lot of work to do on his base. He def. needs some good luck.

6/13/2008 9:47:41 AM