Quote :

"i'm glad you brought this up. This is just more evidence that you a) don't know shit about macs and b) don't know shit about macs... therefore anything you say should just be ignored. "

This is true. OS X has tons of shortcuts (probably more than Windows) and they're more consistent and logical (99% of the time anyway).

10/16/2008 1:40:15 AM

I knew noen was going to come in here with some Microshaft BS.

10/16/2008 2:13:41 AM

OK I CANT RESIST ANYMORE

Quote :

" Noen All American 26204 Posts user info edit post If you want to talk about new and different, I guarantee you that Microsoft creates more NEW technology in a year than Apple has in it's existance. Apple does not do "completely new and different things". They are not an early adopter company or technology leaders. They are ecosystem builders. They are incredible at putting together the right mix of technologies and services into a closed-loop system and selling it to consumer markets. "

Noen, please watch this video.

Someone please embed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZrr7AZ9nCY

Then go to this link: http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM.Tech.Q2.07/BE8D0C58-313E-453E-9E8B-D443BE6E1DDE.html

and skip down to the paragraph "Prior Art? Pfft! "

[Edited on October 16, 2008 at 2:21 AM. Reason : ITS A BIG ASS TABLE]

[Edited on October 16, 2008 at 2:25 AM. Reason : AND A FRAUD]

10/16/2008 2:19:14 AM

Quote :

"Apple will grow in proportion with the size of the markets they are in. But, unless they open their ecosystem (white box OSX, Apps, and or hardware), there isn't much room for crazy growth, because the life-cycles of their products are too short and their price places them out of the reach of most consumers. That is speaking about Mac sales, to be clear. The jury is still out on the iPhone. "

well apparently Apple is growing just fine without your 2 cents. Interesting. But I suppose Microsoft should get some credit. If it wasn't for Vista things could be different.


"Remember all that money you spent on iTunes? Now you can do it again for your table!"

hahaha...that is pretty cool but it looks like a blown up iPhone that costs $10,000.

[Edited on October 16, 2008 at 2:22 AM. Reason : .]

10/16/2008 2:19:16 AM

thanks to all the douches who completely ruined this thread

10/16/2008 6:16:06 AM

I thought I contributed a hearty lol with my post ^^^

10/16/2008 6:18:31 AM

Quote :

"no right mouse button = failure. end of story. You can come up with as many defenses of the gimmick two finger + click system as you want, but it still just a gimmick. The reason every single mac users in history goes and buys a third party mouse is because the default offering is garbage. "

ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE: Of the handful of Mac users I know, two have purchased an external mouse - me and agentlion. The rest are either using the MM or just using the trackpad and don't care for an external mouse.

Quote :

"The context menu is a requirement for usability, even more so on the mac than that PC because the mac's keyboard shortcuts are severely limited."

It's hard to imagine someone being more wrong than this.
Your first statement there is one of the reasons Apple still insists on shipping one-button mice. In Apple view, the contextual menu should NEVER be a requirement for usability. It might be okay for shortcuts, but it should never, never, never ever be REQUIRED. Every single function MUST be included in the menus. Some Windows developers rely on the contextual menu as a crutch. Apple does not agree with this stance.

10/16/2008 7:51:04 AM

Quote :

"This is true. OS X has tons of shortcuts (probably more than Windows) and they're more consistent and logical (99% of the time anyway)."

Too bad the symbols next to them make no sense whatsoever, except for the one on the Apple key.

[Edited on October 16, 2008 at 9:53 AM. Reason : .]

10/16/2008 9:53:27 AM

here's a great photo-comparison of the previous Macbook Pro and the new MBP designs
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/10/16/high_quality_unboxing_photos_late_2008_15_macbook_pro.html

I have the previous, early 08, MBP and I still find myself marveling at how beautiful it is sometimes, but the author of that column is right - compared to the new MBP, the old one is down right clumsy. Glad they were able to get rid of the plastic edges

10/16/2008 10:01:04 AM

i went to the apple store today and played with one, was pretty nice of course

the trackpad was fun to play with, didn't feel awkward without a button at all. the multi-finger swipes were fun, and pretty useful. the four finger swipe to do expose was great. i did notice a couple times that even though the trackpad was huge, sometimes i'd start doing a 4 finger swipe and one of my fingers would hit slightly hit the edge, and it'd do 3 finger swipe action. i'm sure you'd get used to where the edges are to avoid them after using it a while. otherwise it was a very nice experience

10/16/2008 1:36:28 PM

Quote :

"sometimes i'd start doing a 4 finger swipe and one of my fingers would hit slightly hit the edge, and it'd do 3 finger swipe action. i'm sure you'd get used to where the edges are"

one thing I've noticed about my MBP is that no matter how tightly I hold two fingers together, it always correctly recognizes it as two fingers and not one, even if there is barely any space between the tips of my fingers. I suspect the same thing would be true with 3 and 4 fingers - you can put your fingertips very closely together and it will still know how many fingers you're using

10/16/2008 1:42:34 PM

right, but my 4th finger would slightly slide off the trackpad, and it would do whatever 3 finger swipe does instead of what i was expecting, a 4 finger swipe. i don't blame the machine, it's doing what it's supposed to. i would just have to learn mentally where the trackpad bounds were so i don't accidentally do the wrong swipe

1 vs 2 finger click seemed to work great though

[Edited on October 16, 2008 at 1:59 PM. Reason : or maybe i should expect the trackpad to be smarter, i dunno.]

10/16/2008 1:58:22 PM

I was a die hard Thinkpad user (for portables) until 2001, and swore by the trackpoint. I used to build my own machines, run multiple flavors of Windows, Linux and OSX. Starting with my first powerbook laptop, I slowly started making the switch towards OSX, and by06 I only had Apples. I tried a couple of Thinkpads again recently, but the current crop of trackpads from Apple work better for me. I use lots of keyboard shortcuts, and double tap/right click stuff. I do have an external Logitech mouse, but I don't use it unless I'm working on the desk...

Anyway, I don't really need another new Apple, but I must say the new designs get lots of cookie points from me for being machined aluminum, that's just cool.

10/16/2008 2:11:22 PM

i really really don't like the black keys

10/16/2008 2:19:54 PM

This is how I feel about the new MBP:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6SAvHWzhOQ

I'd like Apple's ideas about simplicity a whole lot more if the rest of the computer industry would use the same standard, problem is they don't.

10/16/2008 3:29:13 PM

Quote :

"Then go to this link: http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM.Tech.Q2.07/BE8D0C58-313E-453E-9E8B-D443BE6E1DDE.html and skip down to the paragraph "Prior Art? Pfft! " ... ITS A BIG ASS TABLE ... AND A FRAUD"

Let's see, the beginning of that article he posted the year over year "failings". Half of them are major industry-wide successes (Media Center, Xbox, Xbox360, Tablet PCs, Vista). And you are being retarded about Surface. It was NEVER intended for consumers. Ever. Never. It's a commercial and industrial use device.

The HARDWARE of Surface is not proprietary or new, and never has claimed to be. It doesn't use Apple's technology because NO ONE CAN, it's patented and not licensed externally (yet). The research of Surface and it's innovations are all in the software, which does a lot more because Surface can SEE the things touching it and react to them.

And very few MSR projects ever see the public eye. Most are kept trade secret, rather than open patents. Just to give you an idea, at the MSR tradeshow this year there were over 200 booths. That's 200 presentable, ongoing, major areas of research. More reference for you

Quote :

""Remember all that money you spent on iTunes? Now you can do it again for your table!" hahaha...that is pretty cool but it looks like a blown up iPhone that costs $10,000."

Except the iPhone doesn't do 99% of what Surface is used for. Everything the iPhone can do, Surface can. And guess what technology will be in Windows 7?

10/16/2008 4:06:44 PM

agentlion: Dude thanks for the pics! It already looked sexy, but that REALLY shows how much better the casing is now. Looks like it's time to start saving and make a trip down to the apple store to see about the heat

FYI for all you tards who think I'm some Apple hater, the new MacBooks are BAD ASS, well spec'd and price competitive for the market. I own (and LOVE) my Mac Mini, except for the #@($*&% keyboard differences (using a Logitech slim keyboard)

10/16/2008 4:10:07 PM

I'm thinking of selling my current Macbook Pro to move down to a Macbook. Just built a PC and don't need as much power in my mobile machine and would like a smaller one.

PM if you are interested in 2.16 MBP with 256mb X1600

10/16/2008 5:10:00 PM

Quote :

"The HARDWARE of Surface is not proprietary or new, and never has claimed to be. It doesn't use Apple's technology because NO ONE CAN, it's patented and not licensed externally (yet). The research of Surface and it's innovations are all in the software, which does a lot more because Surface can SEE the things touching it and react to them."

Hey dipshit,

Surface is a ripoff and a fraud. Its not a touch screen table. It uses 5 cameras under a glass countertop.

Lets digg in to this since I know youll take the bait and are just to dumb to conceed that its a shit product:

Quote :

" Gizmodo, Engadget: Uncritical of the Empire's New Clothes. Gizmodo said Microsoft’s Surface “looks pretty neat,” based on a video demo that showed, among other things, how Bill Gates could use Surface for “ordering and paying for food using credit cards.” Ryan Block of Engadget similarly wrote, “damned if this wasn't one of the coolest technology demoes we've seen in long while -- bugs and all.” Amazing stuff, but how does Surface deal with credit cards? The demo given by Gates on NBC’s Today Show inexplicably shows Gates placing credit cards on the Surface and using a finger control to set a desired gratuity amount. However, there is no actual way for Surface to deal with the card; the demo was not just faked, but absurd on its face. Why will nobody point this out? Surface can only recognize objects tagged with a “domino” barcode, and Microsoft only chose to give it the ability to distinguish between 256 different items. Presumably, most casinos or hotels would deal with more cards than that. Surface doesn't read the card number via its cameras either; the cards are left face up in the demo anyway. Further, why would I want my credit card lying out in the open? To allow identity thieves to take a snapshot with a camera phone while I buy drinks? Does Microsoft ever consider the security implications for its marketing driven product visions? And how tacky is it to dial up a tip in public anyway? Elsewhere, Microsoft points out that some systems will have a conventional card swipe reader--they are built to order for each client. That being the case, why present a fake demonstration of something that makes no sense? And why do Gizmodo and Engadget fall for such a ridiculous ploy? At least NBC is a Microsoft partner. It would have been more impressive had Gates placed his credit card on his forehead in a Karnak The Magnificent gesture and told his Today Show host that Surface used ESP to calculate a the tip by reading his mind. It would have been just as honest, and no doubt the Today Show, Gizmodo, and Engadget would have bought it. Perhaps Gates just has no sense of humor. Or perhaps he’s smart enough to only play his shell game with the truly gullible. "

And the big WHAMMY from: http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/surface.ars

Quote :

" Unlike most touch screens, Surface does not use heat or pressure sensors to indicate when someone has touched the screen. Instead, five tiny cameras take snapshots of the surface many times a second, similar to how an optical mouse works, but on a larger scale. This allows Surface to capture many simultaneous touches and makes it easier to track movement, although the disadvantage is that the system cannot (at the moment) sense pressure. Five cameras mounted beneath the table read objects and touches on the acrylic surface above, which is flooded with near-infrared light to make such touches easier to pick out. The cameras can read a nearly infinite number of simultaneous touches and are limited only by processing power. Right now, Surface is optimized for 52 touches, or enough for four people to use all 10 fingers at once and still have 12 objects sitting on the table. (For more on the camera system and hardware, check out our launch coverage of the system). "

Noen just an FYI, youre gonna lose this debate so just give up now.

10/16/2008 5:23:29 PM

Quote :

"Surface is a ripoff and a fraud. Its not a touch screen table. It uses 5 cameras under a glass countertop."

5 cameras under a glass countertop = touchscreen table

I don't know who you're quoting there, but the uniqueness of surface IS in the software, as the person you quoted noted.

The table is completely irrelevant. The only reason that surface is even a table is because technology is not really where it needs to be for Surface to be anything other than a table, yet.

The credit card thing was likely faked, but that functionality can be mimicked with RFID based credit cards anyway.

For a good long while too, there's been DIY instructions on how to build touch tables (just search google for frustrated total internal reflection table DIY), and there's been opensource software that used touchtables. MS obviously didn't invent this (but IIRC, the hired one of the first people researching this technology), but they did create a good first step in multitouch based software.

And frankly, you sound like kind of an idiot shouting about it being a fraud and a ripoff.

[Edited on October 16, 2008 at 5:42 PM. Reason : ]

10/16/2008 5:29:17 PM

^Thank you moron, you just summed up the response I was typing out.

Using a different methodology does not mean it's not a touch screen. Capacitive and Resistance touchscreens are also "not touch screens" by your definition.

And it's apparent you've never actually seen or used on. Because the thing is sick, and the software for it reaches so far beyond any other multi-touch interface I've ever used (I own an iPhone too) it's not even comparable.

10/16/2008 5:38:10 PM

A touchscreen table is indicative of a pressure sensored device which surface is not.

Surface fails in that category. Its a fraud and a fake, and completely impractical no matter what company is buying it and for what reason they are implementing it.

FAIL.

10/16/2008 5:55:38 PM

Quote :

"A touchscreen table is indicative of a pressure sensored device which surface is not. "

are you serious? it says it's TOUCHscreen table...as in a screen, that you can touch. let me say this again. it says you interact with it by TOUCHING it..

no where does touchscreen table in any way at all make me think it has to be pressure sensitive. all i give a damn is if i touch it, it knows what I'm touching and acts accordingly. i think it does in fact do that.

hell, while we're talking about it, my iphone says it has a touchscreen.. it isn't pressure sensitive either in anyway. did they lie about that one too?

[Edited on October 16, 2008 at 7:07 PM. Reason : asdf]

10/16/2008 7:07:12 PM

MOST touch-sensitive devices on the market aren't pressure sensitive.

The main pressure sensitive devices are those Wacom tables, and ironically, they won't work if you just touch them.

10/16/2008 7:22:28 PM

^ which is a good thing so you can rest your hand on the surface

10/16/2008 7:33:09 PM

Quote :

"A touchscreen table is indicative of a pressure sensored device which surface is not."

The only TOUCH display device I've seen that IS pressure sensitive was thepatent Apple filed for a next generation touch screen with pressure sensitivity which, to my knowledge, hasn't been put into any of their devices to date.

^ and ^^ Damn near every trackpad made for the last 10 years has been pressure sensitive (on PC laptops anyway). Just not displays. I don't know if the new trackpads on MacBooks are or not.

[Edited on October 16, 2008 at 7:37 PM. Reason : .]

10/16/2008 7:34:58 PM

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM.Tech.Q2.07/BE8D0C58-313E-453E-9E8B-D443BE6E1DDE.html


Scroll down to the bottom of the post for REAL touch screen devices.

10/16/2008 7:41:47 PM

^None of those are pressure sensitive. The MIT lava lamp demo simulates pressure by how LONG you leave your fingers in a single spot. So, fail again.

10/16/2008 7:48:44 PM

noen 3

wut 0

10/16/2008 7:51:51 PM

wut

10/16/2008 7:55:03 PM

i disagree

10/16/2008 7:59:10 PM

Quote :

"Damn near every trackpad made for the last 10 years has been pressure sensitive (on PC laptops anyway). "

que?

Trackpads aren't sensing pressure. They "pretend" they're sensing pressure by correlating a higher capacitance to a higher pressure, but this is because they're assuming your finger flattening out as you press harder is higher pressure. If you have just fat fingers, it has to be re-calibrated for your fat fingers. And the touchpads aren't sensitive enough anyway to be usefully pressure sensitive. If you're thinking about what I think you're thinking about, if you look at the Synaptics utility that shows pressure, if you just take 2 fingers and lightly touch your touchpad, it'll think you're using more pressure.

10/16/2008 8:06:12 PM

on topic though...

Quote :

"The multitouch is great, and having no button is so much better than the one big button before. There's an option to map the bottom right corner as right click, so you basically have a 2 button trackpad."

- http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8300945231/m/859003705931

I never thought to use corner tapping in this way.

10/16/2008 8:23:22 PM

well after reading through 4 pages of pissing contests over mouse buttons and touchscreen semantics, i pose a new question, on a more basic premise.... for the normal consumer.

Is this the machine I want to buy for my next computer? Is this the notebook that'll get me to switch?

As a background, I haven't used a mac exclusively since... oh the mid/late 90s powermac days so I know a ton has changed.

Needs:
-Looking to replace clunky desktop, it's old, loud, and doesn't quite fit into my current lifestyle. I live in a very open studio-type place now, and use the kitchen table as a main workspace. you can imagine why a desktop is a bit of an eyesore
-can handle any game i want
-capacity to handle a larger monitor/multiple if possible. i run 4 lcds now. you all know how spoiled you get, fast. I'd like to maintain a quasi docking station setup on the table still, mount a few screens on the wall and keep an external mouse near by. It seems to me that you can port to the larger lcd, but that thing's kinda pricey.. ahah
-I also use the computer as a main entertainment source, not necessary video, but music is playing ~95% of the time I'm home. Playing isnt the issue, that's basic. but quality hardware and connectivity to external stereo. Although I could see my next computer being a video source. I've got a 2005ish model 56"hdtv with hdmi, so not having hdmi ports is kinda a detractor i guess.. not sure what other solutions there are out there, never researched it.
-boot camp.



the concept of the new trackpad is fascinating to me. I haven't tried it out yet, but plan to when i get back to the states next week, assuming that some stores will have models to play with.

Keep in mind I'm completely unfamiliar with os, and associated software.

The cost is a detractor, so I need some justification to go with this over an alternative.

At this point, is this notebook my best choice?

10/16/2008 8:38:09 PM

best choice? clearly not

valid choice? probably

10/16/2008 8:45:10 PM

You can have the internal display and a single external display, if you need more than that, you'll have to get an expansion card, which means going with the Pro.

Other than that, the Macbook Pro meets all your other demands. You can easily get DisplayPort->DVI->HDMI adapters to hook to the TV.

And the 9600 should be able to play any game out now acceptably, but obviously won't come close to a desktop with a nicer GPU in it.

10/16/2008 8:47:26 PM

i mean im not a gamer nerd now, but i forsee sc2 swallowing my life

the first one did

10/16/2008 8:48:51 PM

^Won't SC2 run on mac? From my experience since Warcraft III...every Blizzard game can install and run on both PC and Mac with the same install disc.

10/16/2008 8:50:43 PM

Quote :

"And the 9600 should be able to play any game out now acceptably"

Yeah it should play any game on low settings. Newer games like Stalker/FarCry2 will look pretty bad on it, but it's not a gaming laptop or anything.

^Yeah Blizzard is developing it for OSX.

^^^it'd be nice if they came standard with 2 display ports. Dell's usually come with both a VGA, and a DVI. So you have the option for an analog and digital external. Still limited to 2 displays total though. I wonder if you could do 3 considering the new mac book pro has the 2 video cards.

10/17/2008 12:24:57 AM

^i don't think so.


Well i just walked downtown and checked out the new macbooks while i was there. They are indeed quite nice. the old MBP looks a little sloppy side by side. The bases and lids are of course very solid. It closes up very nice and tight and feels like a flat aluminum brick in your hands. really nice. My one gripe w/ the aluminum though is that it has sort of a sparkly/rough sandblasted finish. You can see its texture in the pics above. As it is now its almost like a silver textured spray paint. I'd prefer a raw machined surface.

The touchpad is freaking huge. I have fairly big hands i guess. i'm 6'4 and my hand fit on it with plenty of lateral room to spare. i tried all the new gestures i could think of. the clear desktop and open expose works nice. the four finger lateral swipe to bring up the app selector worked, but not as i thought. I thought the swiping motion would bring up the selector and the swiping would scroll through the app icons. But actually the swipe brings up the selector and it sticks a bit and then you regular one or two (cant remember) scroll through them. this is probably best because you'd run out of lateral room if one swip had to do it all. The texture of the trackpad was slightly sticky. but i did just walk a mile or two from home so maybe it was me. ha.

the MBP had a movie playing on it and it looked awesome. It was fast bright actiony stuff and it was smooth as butter. no motion blurring or trails or anything. It really looked much better than the LCD on this laptop that i'm used to

10/17/2008 1:03:28 AM

no way! new macbooks tomorrow?

10/17/2008 1:10:22 AM

^^you don't think so what?

I mean a 9400 will run the newer games on low settings. I guess i'm simply saying compared to the highest settings it won't look good. But no one buys a mac book pro to play new PC games.

10/17/2008 1:32:34 AM

i meant i don't think so about it running 3 displays using both of the built in vid cards.

It also sucks that the MBPs don't support NVIDIA's "Boost" SLI tech where it can run both cards at once in hybrid SLI. Its one or the other.

10/17/2008 1:44:01 AM

^ That doesn't work because both cards have to be similar in capability.

10/17/2008 10:33:50 AM

Quote :

"raw machined surface"

While that would look cool initially, it wouldn't last. The shot peened surface will hide scratches and discoloration from use much better in the long run.

Nice looking machine.

10/17/2008 5:38:51 PM

^That's why there is anodizing, and powdercoating, and clearcoating. You could pretty easily take a MBP and change the surface to a super-polished one.

10/17/2008 6:11:02 PM

10/17/2008 6:32:18 PM

It's a shame the LCDs used in the macbooks are such low quality. It's very easy to see having owned a macbook pro for 2 years, and even worse side by side in the Apple store.

10/19/2008 2:09:38 AM

welp, just picked up a clearance old MBP base model for a nice deal.

I just set it up and trying to figure all this mac shit out. so far so good. I'm pretty retarded. I d/led Firefox and clicked it. and a little box came up showing me to drag the firefox icon to the Apps icon... ok.. so i dragged it. hah then it copied or something. It also mounted the .dmg file like a drive image or something on the desktop. are all mac install files images?

I don't know wtf i'm doing. I'm trying my very best not to plug a mouse in.

10/19/2008 2:19:41 AM

where'd you get a good deal? i'd be willing to get a last gen mbp for the right price

10/19/2008 2:42:11 AM