Quote :

"And the fact that you can just rattle this stuff off with a straight face leaves me totally at a loss for words."

Thank god.

11/5/2008 1:25:56 PM

Quote :

"Welcome to the U.S.S.A. at least i hope not"

god you people are fucking retarded

11/5/2008 1:27:00 PM

Shrike,

I found some: your frantic support for a winning political candidate is leading you to ill considered conclusions about both Obama and America's standing in the world.

Or if you want to keep it pithy: Welcome to "Hack-town". Population: You.

Yah, sorry to be a buzz kill homes, but not everything changes on election night (you'll realize that after you've been through a couple). Obama has a lot of work ahead of him to fix the mess that Bush made. I sincerely hope he makes good.

[Edited on November 5, 2008 at 1:42 PM. Reason : ``]

11/5/2008 1:42:09 PM

Quote :

"My first main thought was to note how gracefully republicans lose...democrats should really learn a lesson from that..."

You call this losing gracefully?

Between socks``, beergotlife, and all the other people on facebook, this is far from a "graceful" defeat on the side of the supporters.

Considering the huge margin Obama won by, even if there was voter fraud, it wouldn't affect the outcome.

11/5/2008 1:49:46 PM

I thought that was in reference to the politicians, not supporters

11/5/2008 1:56:40 PM

Gore had good reason to hold out. I don't recall Kerry bitching about stuff, he conceded pretty quickly.

McCain, to me, looked like he gave up about a week ago, so i'm sure he's been prepared for this alread.y

11/5/2008 1:58:14 PM

^Actually, that's pretty accurate.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/167581/page/2

Quote :

"On the Sunday night before the last debate, McCain's core group of advisers—Steve Schmidt, Rick Davis, adman Fred Davis, strategist Greg Strimple, pollster Bill McInturff and strategy director Sarah Simmons—met to decide whether to tell McCain that the race was effectively over, that he no longer had a chance to win. The consensus in the room was no, not yet, not while he still had "a pulse.""

..

lol Socks``, you're not a buzzkill. You're a joke and watching you pour your bitter tears all over this thread just adds to the feeling of satisfaction from last night.

You don't think last night changed anything? Fine, I guess you felt the same way in 2000 and especially 2004. Go read some of the reactions coming out of Europe, Asia, and the Middle East after Bush won re-election. I happen to remember them quite clearly. Then read the reactions to last night. Read quotes from their leaders. The way the world looks at the United States has fundamentally changed overnight. The fact that McCain supporters like yourself don't understand that, and Obama supporters do, makes it all the more clearer why the election was so lopsided.

Meanwhile, as more votes trickle in, Obama's lead in the popular vote has inched towards 7%. Go ahead and move the goalposts some more.

[Edited on November 5, 2008 at 2:18 PM. Reason : :]

11/5/2008 2:15:26 PM

moron,

haha. Like I said, anyone playing the Obama-supporter buzz-kill is called a "sore loser".

In fact, I have not said anything about Obama all day. All I have done is pour cold water on the self-congratulation of a few TWWers.

"Man, ain't it great that we were smart enough to vote for a man that won in a 5 point LANDSLIDE and has already become a WORLD LEADER in only 24 hours!?!?!" Hehehe.

See? You really don't have anything to bitch about. So don't get so excited, Susan. You might soak through your pretty pink panties while you're work, and I wouldn't want want that.

[Edited on November 5, 2008 at 2:16 PM. Reason : ``]

11/5/2008 2:16:10 PM

Quote :

"The way the world looks at the United States has fundamentally changed overnight."

-Shrike

moron, see? Tell me that just isn't too precious. I remember remarks quite like these after Bush won in 2000. He was going to bring a "new tone" to Washington. The world wasn't going to laugh at our sex-driven commander and chief because we elected a man with "honor and integrity".

I doubt anyone aside from me and Joe and Hookshaw remember that far back, but you can google it if you like.

Trust me, kids. If you're lucky, you'll get perspective with age. Then you can get into grad school and come back and haunt all the true-believeing youngins.

[Edited on November 5, 2008 at 2:21 PM. Reason : ``]

11/5/2008 2:19:40 PM

^

11/5/2008 2:24:58 PM

I didn't vote but I was happy. Time for some serious change.

11/5/2008 2:24:59 PM

Quote :

"moron, haha. Like I said, anyone playing the Obama-supporter buzz-kill is called a "sore loser"."

You won't catch me saying that, but you DO realize this is part of the game don't you? The right did the same thing in 2000 and 2004, and people on your side are saying even NOW "if they democrats had lost they would be sore losers", so right is STILL trying to claim the democrats are sore losers.

Quote :

""The way the world looks at the United States has fundamentally changed overnight." -Shrike moron, see? Tell me that just isn't too precious. I remember remarks quite like these after Bush won in 2000. He was going to bring a "new tone" to Washington. The world wasn't going to laugh at our sex-driven commander and chief because we elected a man with "honor and integrity"."

Shrike may have overstated things a tad bit originally, but that quote is fundamentally accurate.

Obama's change isn't in his proposed policies, it's what it says about the American PEOPLE, from the perspective of the rest of the world. You don't think foreigners see Americans as arrogant, ignorant douchbags who hate non-Americans (or non-whites even)?

Now, it's a lot harder for the muslim world to claim we want their destruction just because they're muslim, when WE elected a president with a muslim father AND one of OUR (historically oppressed) minority groups. That sends the message that we don't hate their skin color or their culture, when we make our policies, even if we make a mistake, we really are hoping for the best for ourselves AND the world too.

You're extremely naive if you don't see how this changes our disposition for the better on the negotiating table. Foreigner leaders of our "enemies" are going to be able to take Obama seriously when he says he understand their position, but they need to see ours.

Quote :

"I doubt anyone aside from me and Joe and Hookshaw remember that far back, but you can google it if you like. Trust me, kids. If you're lucky, you'll get perspective with age. Then you can get into grad school and come back and haunt all the true-believeing youngins."

LOL

11/5/2008 2:49:50 PM

Quote :

"Shrike may have overstated things a tad bit originally, but that quote is fundamentally accurate. Obama's change isn't in his proposed policies, it's what it says about the American PEOPLE, from the perspective of the rest of the world."

Hahah golly. Saying that the world has a "new perspective on the US" because it has elected a black man isn't the same as being a world leader. If anything, it says more about the American People than it does about Barack Obama himself. Like I said, being just elected, Obama has had no chance to demonstrate his abilities in getting things done with other nations.

IOW: Your argument should be that Obama's election is a positive symbol to the rest of the world. I can agree with that. But you simply cannot support saying that Obama is an accomplished or great world leader. It's too early.

The sooner you ladies fall out of this fit, the better.

11/5/2008 3:02:11 PM

People say that our country has advanced morally in electing a black man President. But part of that advancement is developing the maturity to reject such a candidate based on the issues.

People say that his election will effectively end the idea that racism holds one back. Why? Why didn't his nomination end that idea, having come from nowhere and beaten the most powerful political machine in the Democratic party?

People say that his election will invigorate the American spirit the way no single policy change could. That the symbolism will re-ignite the American dream. But the dream never excluded one's individual qualifications or the hard-nosed reality of the world; it just embodies the idea that one can develop individually and overcome.

I find a lot to like in Barack Obama as a person but am afraid we as an electorate have rubber stamped him into office. He is the first black president. He is also a young man with little experience in national politics, and he now directly controls one of the world's largest nuclear arsenals. Among other things.

In addition he believes in imposing the power of the state on our most productive citizens, at the worst possible time economically. Such logic runs directly counter to the American dream that propelled him to victory.

There is a very fine line between a politician who is merely symbolic while maintaining effective statesmanship ... and a demagogue who rides the popular sentiment, the base feelings we all have, to power.

I feel we have elected the latter; the burden of proof is now directly on Barack Obama to prove me wrong. I am just hoping for the best.

11/5/2008 3:11:17 PM

Quote :

"I remember remarks quite like these after Bush won in 2000. He was going to bring a "new tone" to Washington."

And Bush didn't significantly change a number of things, for better or for worse? Please.


And there you go making appeals to age again, just like your mentor. A) I remember quite well, thank you. B) I don't think one should take any pride in being old and on an internet forum.

11/5/2008 3:41:54 PM

Watching socks flail about turning into hooksaw part 2 is pretty funny. You're better than that.

Alas, someone got caught up in the spin machine of the republican campaign and now being spat out, now can't seem to take it. I don't have much sympathy for you.

11/5/2008 3:42:06 PM

Kainen,

Please. I am and always have been an independent centrist. The only thing different this election is that the centrist wasn't a Democrat. The fact that you can't stand intellectual discent is exactly why I ride you Obamanauts so hard.

But I really think you red-meat base-progressive types will be ones that lose on this election.

Obama may have run as a progressive, but he has recruited a good number of smart centrists to his campaign.

Jason Furman has, in the past, proposed making health care reforms very similar to those outlined by John McCain. Alan Goolsbee is Univ. of Chicago economist that supports free-trade. Robert Rubin is a former investment banker and alumnist of the Clinton admin.

If he is as smart as everyone says he is, he will listen to these men and govern from the middle in a bi-partisan fashion, just like Bill Clinton did. This is even more likely considering that Democrats don't have a super-majority in the Senate and we are racking up financial obligations that will constrain Obama's domestic policy.

I hate to tell you, but you will soon be feeling the edge of the Obama flip-flop sword. He's already all but said that he isn't going to renegotiate NAFTA. He has indeed already said he isn't going to oppose off-shore drilling. What's next?

My predictions: His middle class tax cuts will either be much smaller or temporary (short-term stimulus). He will not pull out all combat troops in 16 months (Just ask Obama's former foreign policy adviser Samantha Power or military leaders that are skeptical such a deadline could be feasible even if we tried it). His health care package will be much more modest and will not come even close to universal coverage (wouldn't it be great if he listened to Furman and picked up McCain's policy??). He will not tax "windfall profits" of Oil Companies. I also fully expect him to embrace market-based reforms in environmental policy (if he was nervous about creating mandates for health care, how do you think he will feel about mandating efficiency and emissions standards??).

Change is coming. But with any luck, and some help from smart advisers, this will be Third-way Centrist Change. MARKET BASED CHANGE. Progressive dreams will continue to go unfulfilled as Obama embraces globalization and expanding markets. THAT'S the kinda change Obama will bring.

At least that's what I like to think. It will be so glorious to see the left-wing of the Democratic Party totally ignored in odd-numbered years. Just like they were in the 1990's under BC. SUCK IT UP KAINEN!! The Progressive Movement is Intellectually Dead. Bush revived it for 2008, but Bush-hatred won't last forever. People will want results and the '60s and '70's tell us that progressive ideas don't stand up very well to most metrics.

[Edited on November 5, 2008 at 4:28 PM. Reason : ``]

11/5/2008 4:15:22 PM

So you just argued that Obama wasn't centrist in your first paragraph, and in the rest of your post you continue to argue why he is centrist? Wtf?

11/5/2008 4:19:35 PM

^ More accurately, I argue that Obama is actually a centrist that ran as a progressive. That's why I didn't support him. But Obama has already flip-flopped on dozens of major issues during his time as Senator (he used to support staying in Iraq, he used to oppose off-shore drilling, etc etc).

I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think that he will flip-flop again. And I don't think you progressives will like it.

I may not have voted for the man, but if he shapes up like I HOPE, then he will do just fine as President.

[Edited on November 5, 2008 at 4:41 PM. Reason : ``]

11/5/2008 4:26:59 PM

Thank God that Obama is not gonna get a Supermajority in the Senate. There needs to be some checks and balances to his power. We saw what happened the last time we gave a President a blank check, and it wasn't pretty.

I really hope that idiot Al Franken doesn't win in the Minnesota recount.

11/5/2008 4:46:34 PM

Quote :

"If anything, it says more about the American People than it does about Barack Obama himself. "

Yeah, that's exactly what I was saying.

And Obama is what has allowed this change in perception of America/Americans.

Quote :

"He is the first black president. He is also a young man with little experience in national politics, and he now directly controls one of the world's largest nuclear arsenals. Among other things."

I can pretty much guarantee that Obama doesn't judge himself based on being "the first [half]black president." Really, being the "first black president" is nothing more than a very superficial label, and Obama knows this, because he's obviously use to being looked at this way.

And he's really not that young, and I think people have been grossly underestimating his experience. He has literally spent his entire life in politics, thinking about things in a political way, and he clearly knows how to work within political systems.

All the "experience" in the world can't prepare someone for being in charge of "the world's largest nuclear arsenal."

[Edited on November 5, 2008 at 4:51 PM. Reason : ]

11/5/2008 4:47:46 PM

PS* Why does everyone pick on hooksaw? He has a short-fuse sure. But he's actually a pretty nice guy.

PPS* moron And I can agree with that much softer statement. I could not agree with Shrike's sillier statement about Obama being a better world leader than Bush before even being sworn into office. There is no way to know how Obama will do until, um, he's actually President.

[Edited on November 5, 2008 at 4:52 PM. Reason : ``]

11/5/2008 4:49:01 PM

I hope so socks, I'm not really a progressive so I'm not sure where you get that.

Yeah I'm for single payer (so is Krugman and other people I highly respect last I checked), and I support doing away with Bush's tax plan, and I don't want to continue an aggressive foreign policy stance....but I also don't care about drilling, I want nuclear, I actually like the idea of a fair tax plan, things like that. I am extremely socially liberal though.

I've always nailed Obama for being an extremely calculating and shrewd guy and politician. But I liked that about him. I have no doubt he went to secure the left to get to where he is now but all along was more of a centrist guy. This isn't news to me. I like him because it's not just about being president for him, I think he's extremely intelligent (Nader had one word to describe Obama last week - "clever") and I think what drives him is to make his mark on history and become one of the more legendary presidents. Whether he gets there or not is another matter but I think that's his aim, and he can't do that being a blazing ass liberal. If I didn't think he aspired to that higher ideal I wouldn't have voted for him.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - I voted competency over ideology. That being said, ideologically speaking I don't care for McCain anyway, but even if I did I'd take Obama's competence.

(By the way, the current popular vote tally is 53%-46%. )

[Edited on November 5, 2008 at 5:01 PM. Reason : - ]

11/5/2008 4:59:29 PM

First reactions from around the world:

Quote :

"In a night of near-unanimous praise and congratulation for Barack Obama on his US election victory it was, unexpectedly, the current occupant of the White House who expressed himself in the simplest, most memorable terms. "What an awesome night for you, your family and your supporters," George Bush said. "You are about to go on one of the great journeys of life. Congratulations and go enjoy yourself." Elsewhere, the vast majority of world leaders welcomed Obama's win as a landmark moment for both the US and the wider world, while warning of the challenges the new president will face once in office. A couple were less enthusiastic – Iraq's foreign minister, Hoshyar Zebari, noted that the new president "will not have the same enthusiasm and momentum for this situation (in Iraq)" as did Bush – while Sudan was distinctly underwhelmed. "When it comes to foreign policy there is no difference between the Republicans and the Democrats," said Ali Al-Sadig, a spokesman for the country's foreign ministry. Otherwise, world leaders were queuing up to offer their support. Gordon Brown praised Obama's "inspirational campaign". José Manuel Barroso, the president of the European commission, congratulated Obama, saying it was "time for a renewed commitment between Europe and the United States of America". Angela Merkel, Germany's chancellor, echoed this idea, saying she was "convinced that Europe and the United States will work closely and in a spirit of mutual trust together to confront new dangers and risks and will seize the opportunities presented by our global world". Nicolas Sarkozy, France's president, was more effusive still, despite his ostensible ideological differences as a conservative. "With the world in turmoil and doubt, the American people, faithful to the values that have always defined America's identity, have expressed with force their faith in progress and the future," he said. Asia's two emerging world powers offered their congratulations, although China was typically muted. The country's president, Hu Jintao, said he hoped to "continuously strengthen dialogue and exchanges between our two countries". India's prime minister, Manmohan Singh, was more effusive, saying Obama's "extraordinary journey to the White House will inspire people not only in your country but also around the world". In the Middle East, both sides appeared more focused on arguing for continued support. Israel "expects close strategic cooperation with the new administration", said Tzipi Livni, leader of the country's governing Kadima party. An aide to the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, meanwhile said he hoped the "two-state vision will be transferred from a vision to a realistic track immediately". Elsewhere in the region, Iranian politicians were as much celebrating the end of Bush's presidency as welcoming his successor. "Obama's victory is ... evidence that Bush's policies have failed," one prominent MP, Gholam Ali Haddad-Adel, said. "Americans have no option but to change their policies to save themselves from the quagmire Bush has created for them." Afghanistan and Pakistan, who will remain key strategic allies for Obama, were more fulsome. The election "marks a new chapter in the remarkable history of the United States", Pakistan's prime minister, Yousaf Raza Gilani said. The Afghan president, Hamid Karzai, said meanwhile that he wanted to "applaud the American people for their great decision". Away from the presidential palaces, there was some more personal jubilation. Obama's relatives in Kenya erupted in cheers and singing in the western village of Kogelo, where the president-elect's late father was born, as victory was confirmed. There was similar celebration in Obama, a small coastal town in southern Japan which has spent the past few weeks cheering on its namesake and acquiring a small measure of global fame in the process. "I really think this is going to change the world," said Akihiko Mukohama, the signer of a band performing at a party held the mark the election, wearing an "I Love Obama" T-shirt."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/barackobama-uselections2008

11/5/2008 4:59:59 PM

Quote :

"I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think that he will flip-flop again. And I don't think you progressives will like it."

This seems likely. Needless to say, we radicals will do more than pout. Even a liberal agenda wouldn't be enough. Middle-of-the-road policy gets us angry. Some of my comrades are already planning black bloc antics.

11/5/2008 5:02:28 PM

Quote :

"I like him because it's not just about being president for him, I think he's extremely intelligent (Nader had one word to describe Obama last week - "clever") and I think what drives him is to make his mark on history and become one of the more legendary presidents."

I wouldn't go that far. His entire career has been about seeking higher and higher office. Aside from that, it's hard to find an issue that "cared about" enough to go out on a limb for it.

I think you're right that he wants to make his mark on history, but I suspect it's for purely egotistical reasons (what's bigger than President? GREAT President!). And like you said, there is no way he will be able to do that by towing the progressive line.

It's my hope that his narcissism delivers us a new centrist dawn after a radical conservative night.

So even though my take on him is more cynnical, it sounds like we're in agreement. I can't wait until Jan. Now I'm kinda jazzed. Progressives are totally going to eat the dust once more.

11/5/2008 5:09:01 PM

Obama didn't really flip-flop on oil drilling and NAFTA.

As he said...

"You can't always get the ideal solution, but you can get a better solution."

[Edited on November 5, 2008 at 5:11 PM. Reason : ]

11/5/2008 5:10:07 PM

^ haha alright true-believer. He never flip-flopped, he compromised. haha.

Here's hoping he compromises his way 2 miles from the progressives that elected him!

[Edited on November 5, 2008 at 5:18 PM. Reason : hawhawhahaw]

11/5/2008 5:12:53 PM

I'm relieved by the return of intellectual curiosity to the White House. That during policy discussions, our head of state will often be the smartest person in the room. That his message will appeal not to our worst fears, but to our greatest ambitions.

I'd describe myself as cautiously optimistic.

11/5/2008 5:44:00 PM

Celebrate his victory if you will, but people that are crowning him for a second term before he even enters office make me

11/5/2008 6:21:06 PM

Quote :

"^ haha alright true-believer. He never flip-flopped, he compromised. haha. "

No, he didn't compromise either.

FOr the things you mentioned at least, he phrased his position in a way that mught have suggested a position, but didn't commit to it. He gave himself plausible deniability. This is called campaigning.

McCain did the same thing, but McCain's problem was the lack of a single message to base his positions off of, vs. Obama's message being championing for the middle class.

His "country first" thing is too worn out thanks to 9/11.

[Edited on November 5, 2008 at 6:26 PM. Reason : ]

11/5/2008 6:25:40 PM

Yeah, Obama definitely used the class-warfare card, and it worked well with the economic catastrophe that most people blamed on Wall Street executives.

I really hope that his populist message is another empty campaign promise, because the last thing we need right now is a tax increase on job creators (businesses and investors) when our economy is in the shitter.

[Edited on November 5, 2008 at 6:33 PM. Reason : 2]

11/5/2008 6:32:52 PM

People would have a job if they werent all outsources overseas.

11/5/2008 7:46:18 PM

Quote :

"People would have a job if they werent all outsources overseas."

wut?

11/5/2008 7:52:15 PM

As divisive as this election has been, I wonder if Republicans will respond to Obama's presidency a similar way Democrats responded to Bush's presidency?

11/5/2008 8:53:07 PM

if I had gone out like I was planning, I probably would have cried, but since I didn't I was just excited and really happy and didnt get much sleep because of that.

This is a great day for America no matter what party you are and I'm really fucking proud to have Barack Obama as our next president.

11/5/2008 11:07:04 PM

^ At least your profile indicates you're a lady. If I hear one more report of a dude crying, I will piss myself.

That's fucking metro, son.

[Edited on November 5, 2008 at 11:18 PM. Reason : ``]

11/5/2008 11:17:27 PM

I feel disgusted by almost everyone I know who is excited about this

I would not have been excited no matter who won. McCain and Obama advocate different forms of tyranny and neither cares about individual rights.

How can your be happy to have someone run your country who doesn't care about the principles on which this country was founded?

I feel very alienated from a populace that does not care about this.

11/5/2008 11:24:57 PM

^The public barely even realizes just how lucky they are to have individual rights, it's not likely anyone but libertarians will be calling for less government for quite some time.

11/5/2008 11:26:38 PM

tyranny? that's the kind of statement only a US libertarian that has never known true tyranny could write.

11/5/2008 11:29:54 PM

I wouldn't consider either candidate/party as pushing for tyranny in this race, but there's certainly not a mainstream candidate doing anything to move away from it.

11/5/2008 11:34:16 PM

The technical definition of tyranny includes "arbitrary or unrestrained exercise of power; despotic abuse of authority."

I think the EMTALA, which forces hospitals to treat anyone who comes in to the emergency room, is an abuse of authority.

I don't think one couple should pay 110K in taxes and receive the same gov't services as someone who pay 12K in taxes. That is an unrestrained exercise of power IMO.

The fact that gays can't get married and that there are harsher sentences for marijuana possession than murder sometimes are arbitrary abuses of power.

Fuck tyranny in any form and degree.

11/5/2008 11:35:06 PM

Quote :

"there are harsher sentences for marijuana possession than murder sometimes"

Source or citation of such a case? I need more reasons to be outraged at the idiocy demonstrated by elected officials and lawmakers... and the lack of basic decency and common sense demonstrated by the judicial system.

11/5/2008 11:39:00 PM

definitely worried about what will happen next.

11/5/2008 11:40:28 PM

obama will give pardons to every black man in prison

it's the white man's fault, would be perfect

11/5/2008 11:44:13 PM

Thomas Jefferson said, "Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."

Apparently Mr. Nobama has some issues with the authors of the Constitution.

11/5/2008 11:55:42 PM

^ Actually, Mr. Freedom, Thomas Jefferson was in France when the Constitution was being written. He did not help draft that document.

11/6/2008 12:04:23 AM

Quote :

"Apparently Mr. Nobama has some issues with the authors of the Constitution. "

Nobama, and every president within the past 100 years.




[Edited on November 6, 2008 at 12:25 AM. Reason : ]

11/6/2008 12:20:29 AM

Quote :

"I feel very alienated from a populace that does not care about this."

Don't.

There are at least a few more of us. Honkeyball and theDuke866 have what I'd label a "Constitutional conscience."

The core issues you raise are the explicit reasons I voted "No confidence" for President. Each candidate's Senate record included key votes that ran glaringly against the Bill of Rights.

Both voted for FISA, leaving the Fourth Amendment twisting in the wind. And after much fanfare, McCain ultimately voted to declare torture legal; making an anachronism of the Eighth Amendment. How both men found equity purchases of banks within the purview of the Federal government baffles me, too.

[Edited on November 6, 2008 at 12:30 AM. Reason : ...]

11/6/2008 12:21:10 AM

^^ Maybe longer. I wonder how Jefferson would have felt about that statement if it was used in the context of slavery--slaves doing the work that slave owners benefited from.

[Edited on November 6, 2008 at 12:23 AM. Reason : to moron]

11/6/2008 12:22:39 AM