well, considering the only reason Israel exsists in the middle of a bunch of fucking Arab nations is because of religious zealotry to begin with......

1/9/2009 10:10:20 AM

I dont know about that...essentially, didnt the Brits establish it after WWII? the Jews had just been massacred...maybe that counts to your point, although not the manner you mean. its not like terrorist groups of Jews started killing Arabs to gain a homeland.

1/9/2009 10:33:28 AM

The Palestinians could've solved the whole thing years ago with simple peaceful protests and civil disobedience. How they couldn't look at the Indians and the manner in which they threw off the British yoke and not see that it works is beyond me.

1/9/2009 11:40:38 AM

the reason why it's "beyond you" is apparent from the ignorance in your post: you dont have a goddamned clue as to what youre talking about.

1/9/2009 11:47:16 AM

1/9/2009 11:48:28 AM

i'm glad you can't come up with a coherent response, because you're first post was so full of stupid i aint got time to school you on that one, let alone anything else that might dribble from your feeble brain.

1/9/2009 12:00:37 PM

1/9/2009 12:13:15 PM

Oy.

1/9/2009 12:27:28 PM

Quote :

"I dont know about that...essentially, didnt the Brits establish it after WWII? the Jews had just been massacred...maybe that counts to your point, although not the manner you mean. its not like terrorist groups of Jews started killing Arabs to gain a homeland."

that wasn't my point. Going beyond the political creation of Israel after WWII, the whole reason for the existance of a state of Israel at all is because of 3000 year old Biblical prophecies.

And the whole reason Jews and Muslims continue to fight over that otherwise insignificant piece of land is because they both think it was, literally, promised to them by God. God said that the "sons of Abraham" shall inhabit the Holy Land, or Israel. In one respect, both the Jews and Muslims are right, because both of their religions descended from the sons of Abraham. Paradoxically, they both think the other is mistaken, though, and doesn't belong there, and will find until the "end of times" until the other side has given up or is dead.

So, back to the original point - yes, all the fighting is because of "fanatical religious maniacs", on both sides.

1/9/2009 1:36:49 PM

Here you go, DaBird, from that elusive source of information, wikipedia:

Quote :

"Its popularity stems in part from its welfare and social services to Palestinians in the occupied territories, including school and hospital construction. The group devotes much of its estimated $70 million annual budget to an extensive social services network, running many relief and education programs, and funds schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues. According to the Israeli scholar Reuven Paz "approximately 90 percent of the organization's work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities"."

---

Quote :

"Going beyond the political creation of Israel after WWII, the whole reason for the existance of a state of Israel at all is because of 3000 year old Biblical prophecies."

I don't buy it. Palestine had a substantial and growing Jewish population for decades before the creation of Israel. They went there because they had figured out that they needed a place to gather together to hopefully one day be the majority in their own country. And in selecting Palestine as a site, I suspect it had far more to do with history (well, this is where we started out, let's move back) than with prophecy.

Quote :

"So, back to the original point - yes, all the fighting is because of "fanatical religious maniacs", on both sides."

The irony of this statement being that the most "fanatical" orthodox Jews are the only ones in the country that don't have to join the military. I suspect that for the vast majority of Israelis the question is one of individual and national/ethnic survival rather than religious triumph.

1/9/2009 2:04:22 PM

Quote :

"The irony of this statement being that the most "fanatical" orthodox Jews are the only ones in the country that don't have to join the military. I suspect that for the vast majority of Israelis the question is one of individual and national/ethnic survival rather than religious triumph."

In fairness however, this same exempt group is the most militant group of settlers - i.e., look at the settlements in the West Bank, for instance. Much of the population is in fact religious extremists - ones who have actually turned quite militant when settlements have been ordered to be torn down, and have even put up unauthorized settlements in Palestine.

It's far from the whole of the issue, but the fact remains that settler land grabs have been a major sticking point in peace negotiations.

1/9/2009 2:10:30 PM

In actuality, the overwhelming majority of Israelis aren't religious in the slightest.

Hence my consistent struggle to get people to understand that this fight nor any other that came in the 60 years before it has anything to do with religion.

[Edited on January 9, 2009 at 3:43 PM. Reason : -]

1/9/2009 3:42:05 PM

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2009/01/tiny_crowd_shows_up_for_sadris.asp

Quote :

"Yet the Sadrists could only net 2,000 people to protest the hated Jews and Americans as the Israelis are in the midst of an operation in Gaza. If you want an indication of the decline of the Sadrist movement (and not to mention the relative apathy in Baghdad over the plight of the Palestinians, but that's another story), then look no further than the number of protesters the Sadrists could draw."

1/9/2009 5:19:33 PM

The Palestinian bomb vs. Israeli bomb photos miss the point of terrorism (as a tactic, not a pejorative) which is to use terror as a weapon. The minimal accuracy of Palestinian rockets adds to the erratic and random nature of their violence. The Israeli strikes are, generally, more precise, if the firepower itself is overwhelming. This isn't to justify one or the other, just to point out the irrelevance of the comparison.


On another note: Apparently the one of the videos of the 12 year old being killed by the Israeli rocket was a complete fraud: http://hotair.com/archives/2009/01/08/cnn-stung-by-fake-atrocity-video/

1/9/2009 8:27:14 PM

^ wow, they must have Obama's internet team working for them

I'm a little bit surprised at the perspicacity they have for using technology though. But I guess it's more affordable than buying a tank.

1/9/2009 8:43:35 PM

Asymmetrical warfare at its finest. I don't deny they're smart to use it, but I prefer information to misinformation.

1/9/2009 8:50:41 PM

I think you mean disinformation.

1/10/2009 7:03:44 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/11/iran.israel.nuclear/index.html

Now israel wants to attack Iran and wants us to help them

1/11/2009 9:57:43 PM

1/11/2009 10:04:10 PM

That cnn report has no sources other than another reporter...and he doesn't state his own sources on the matter.

1/12/2009 4:45:17 PM

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j_suGvYgZ4hwcMplsjmGbnqpmHJAD95LNB200

Israel bans their own Arab citizens from running in elections.

They are taking a couple step backwards to South Africa-esque Apartheid laws here, it seems like...

1/12/2009 5:26:01 PM

Taking?

Israel IS an Apartheid-state, inherently racist and exclusivist.

Do we need such regimes in the world in this day and age? How is it tolerated protected and showered with greenbacks???

1/12/2009 6:19:05 PM

Quote :

"Israel bans their own Arab citizens from running in elections."

-moron

Quote :

"The decision does not affect Arab lawmakers in predominantly Jewish parties or the country's communist party, which has a mixed list of Arab and Jewish candidates. Roughly one-fifth of Israel's 7 million citizens are Arabs. Israeli Arabs enjoy full citizenship rights, but have suffered from discrimination and poverty for decades."

-moron's article

It's a dick move on Israel's part, sure, but don't outright lie about it. It was a ban on political parties, not on individuals or races being represented in government.

[Edited on January 12, 2009 at 6:26 PM. Reason : ]

1/12/2009 6:25:38 PM

^ calling it a dick move is a gross understatement, at least viewing it in the context of American society.

They're essentially saying Arabs can only assemble in Israel if they have a Jew approve them first.

1/12/2009 7:32:19 PM

^
Try reading what you are commenting on:

Quote :

"It was a ban on political parties, not on individuals or races being represented in government."

When a political party straight out says that the country they are supposed to represent in parliament doesn't have a right to exist, then why should they be able to run? You can't run for an office for a country when you don't recognize its existence. If I start calling the east coast of the US property of England and found a political party based on that principle, no one would ever put us on a ballot.

The Arab citizens within all the other 30 or so political parties Israel has to offer can still run, many of them do, and many of them win. Much more than African-American and Hispanic politicians do when they run for US Congress.

1/12/2009 8:16:02 PM

^ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7825032.stm

The AP article didn't note it, but this article seems to indicate they banned 2 particular parties.

No article i've read has confirmed whether the 2 parties banned actually supported terrorism or not, and I haven't seen any statements from the Israelis about what exactly they have done that supports terrorism.

However, if the members were legally elected, it seems strange they can just eject them with impunity. IF they did something wrong, arrest them and charge them.

[Edited on January 12, 2009 at 8:51 PM. Reason : ]

1/12/2009 8:41:47 PM

The lesson here is that if you can prove that moron is a bald-faced liar, he will retort that you are guilty of "understatement."

Really?

Really???

1/13/2009 12:37:55 AM

I'm not a "liar", the initial AP article was devoid of critical information.

I will admit though that my previous statement was based on flawed information, and I retract it.

1/13/2009 12:39:54 AM

Unless the article that you posted changed in the 40 minutes between your posting and my response, then either you:

1) Fail at reading comprehension

or

2) Lied

But alright, I'll give it the benefit of the doubt for the moment and assume that it did change. If that's the case, the whole question really rests on the question of whether or not this, from your last article, is accurate:

Quote :

"the two Arab parties supported terrorism and "did not recognise Israel's existence as a Jewish and democratic state"

If they do, in fact, support terrorism, then they're the kind of political party that many countries in the Western world would outlaw -- if, perhaps, not the United States. Their recognition of Israel as a "Jewish state" is another matter, but the first part is enough unto itself.

1/13/2009 12:48:33 AM

Quote :

"If they did something wrong, arrest them and charge them."

Do you doubt though that there is a significant amount of racism from both sides, that helps fuel this conflic?

[Edited on January 13, 2009 at 12:53 AM. Reason : ]

1/13/2009 12:52:17 AM

Well, I think it's fair to say there's a gray area between "existing arrestable offense" and "potential to do great harm if put in a position of power."

1/13/2009 12:54:10 AM

The second article Another article I read somewhere indicates the Israeli supreme court is likely to overturn the vote, which to me indicates they knew from the beginning this was theatrics (for what purpose, i'm not sure... possible to dishearten their arab populace???).

If they were legally and justly elected, it's irrelevant what you perceive their potential to be, if they haven't done anything that you can arrest them for. If they do indeed support terrorism, that's treason isn't it?


[Edited on January 13, 2009 at 1:03 AM. Reason : here -> http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054903.html]

1/13/2009 12:58:30 AM

As I've said before, there's no more racism than there is in the US against blacks and hispanics.

1/13/2009 2:13:34 AM

I just sent this in to the Technician in hopes that it gets printed in Wednesday's forum, and its pretty much a summary of how I feel overall about the conversation in this thread. Today's focus articles from the Arab girls really pissed me off.

"It infuriates me every time I hear Palestinian sympathizers use the terms "Genocide," "Holocaust," and "Apartheid" when talking about the actions of Israel. A genocide is the extermination of an entire group. If this was the goal of Israel, they could have easily done it already. You want to know the difference between the Holocaust and the current situations? There weren't groups of Jews firing 30 missiles and rockets per day into German civilian settlements, and today there are not lines of Palestinians awaiting the gas chambers. And apartheid? How can you say you want your own independent country if you are demanding constant access into neighboring territory? Apartheid is the separation of people according to race or ethnicity, but what is happening here is an actual separation of Palestine from Israel. Isn't that what is wanted, a seperate state? The US fence on the Mexican border is no different. These words are used by those who are more interested in making Israel look worse than actually improving the situation of the Palestinian people. Also, the constant reminder of the death numbers is only a distraction from what is really going on. Just because so few Israelis have died in comparison to the other side doesn't mean that their people are suffering any less.

The Israelis are not after the Palestinian people, only the few bad eggs who decide to ruin it for everyone else.
Why are so many people still dying then? Because Hamas being the cowards that they are decide to hide themselves in highly populated civilian areas. This asymmetrical warfare of hiding missiles inside of mosques and firing off mortar next to school buildings makes these places targets. Why isn't Israel stopping the air strikes to let in humanitarian aid? Because when they agreed to a 24-hour cease-fire for exactly that cause, Hamas continued to launch missiles into cities 30 miles away. All Hamas needs to do is stop the attacks and work out a diplomatic solution with Israel, but all they care about is death and destruction. If you really care about Palestine and its people, then stop spreading hate towards Israel and demand that Hamas takes responsibility and stops putting innocent people in danger."

1/13/2009 2:16:51 AM

Quote :

"Do you doubt though that there is a significant amount of racism from both sides, that helps fuel this conflic?"

I think there is racism and it certainly doesn't help, but I don't think it's a driving factor. It's not so much that one race views the other as inferior or evil, it's that each group believes that its existence as a cultural/national entity is at stake.

Quote :

"If they were legally and justly elected, it's irrelevant what you perceive their potential to be, if they haven't done anything that you can arrest them for. If they do indeed support terrorism, that's treason isn't it?"

Treason has a legal definition, and Israel's version is not something I'm familiar with.

As for the rest...well, I said it was a dick move. In the grand scheme of the region's dick moves, it doesn't really register as all that important, especially given that, as you say, it seems to be a publicity stunt with slim chances of becoming official.

However, as I said, there is similar precedent in the Western world, where various forms of fascist and national socialist parties are outlawed, even when they're not affiliated with other crimes or terrorism.

1/13/2009 3:25:21 AM

The article TKE-Teg posted is so true. I love how the anti-Israel protesters in this country use this incident as an excuse to let their true antisemitic colors shine. Calling for the mass extermination of Jews because you have a problem with Israel is like calling for the genocide of all blacks because you are pissed off at Zimbabwe.

In any case, there certainly is a double standard here. Israel is attacked and a cease fire is broken by Hamas, but when Israel retaliates they are the bad guys. Thats it, plain and simple

1/13/2009 11:34:02 AM

^ why are you so pro-Israel (legit question. i don't want to read all 4 pages of bickering).

i mean the typical american response is to come to israel's aid and support. do you think that is actually right? why should we even have a dog in this fight anyway? do you think our appropriate role is pro-israel support?

(these are not general questions, i want to know what YOU think)

1/13/2009 11:40:17 AM

^ Did you even read the fucking post you are referring to?

Quote :

"In any case, there certainly is a double standard here. Israel is attacked and a cease fire is broken by Hamas, but when Israel retaliates they are the bad guys. Thats it, plain and simple"

This illustrates his point. He is taking the side of the country that was the victim and decided to retaliate...why is that difficult to understand?

1/13/2009 11:46:38 AM

^ was i talking to you? NO I WASN'T! why is that so difficult to understand?

besides, please try not to be an idiot about this.

but...since you decided to speak up. why don't you tell me YOUR thoughts (this involves not quoting what someone else has already said, and probably doesn't include the use of the victim card--that is the easy way out). why does the U.S. continue to support Israel (because, incase you didn't know, the U.S. is pro-Israel. always. that is like, our thing)? what interests of ours are served by this support? you can give me a historical analysis if you want. that is kindof what i was looking for.

ready, go.

[Edited on January 13, 2009 at 11:54 AM. Reason : .]

1/13/2009 11:53:55 AM

First of all, this is a message board...if you wanted a private conversation you can utilize the PM

MY thoughts are simple. There was a cease fire in effect. Unprovoked, Hamas broke the cease fire by firing rockets into Israel. Israel then responded with the current offensive. I support the right of a country to defend itself and do what is necessary to ensure that the safety of its citizens.

Fin

Unlike you, I have read the 4 pages of this thread. The history is in it, I don't feel a need to summarize it for you.

[Edited on January 13, 2009 at 11:59 AM. Reason : a]

1/13/2009 11:57:30 AM

again you are being kind of ridiculous. its fine if you want to give a simple answer. that says a lot in itself.

i like how you assume i don't know anything about the conflict or its history. i wasn't asking for a summary. since you seem to know it all, i was asking for a historical analysis--your opinion. but you won't give it to me, so that is fine.

i will take your typical, simple answer and file it away. thanks for the input--it was a pretty shocking answer.

1/13/2009 12:02:40 PM

I am in no way trying to say you don't know anything about the conflict and the history... you however, do seem to be saying that to me, while at the same time admitting that you haven't read the thread and the numerous explanations given. I feel no need to rehash many of the points I agree with, simply to justify my own knowledge to you.

And yes, I do feel, having a knowledge of the history, that a large part of the CURRENT issue, can simply be boiled down to the fact that Israel is RETALIATING, and doing what is necessary to ensure rockets will not continue to be shot into their towns. If someone feels that Israel is not justified, than the onus of proving that is on the original aggressor. I have yet to see an argument of why we should all forgive Hamas for breaking the cease fire.

This discussion is about the current front. I'm sure there is a thread out there somewhere devoted to the US Pro Israel Policy. This isn't it.

[Edited on January 13, 2009 at 12:13 PM. Reason : typos]

1/13/2009 12:12:29 PM

.

[Edited on January 13, 2009 at 12:23 PM. Reason : nvm]

1/13/2009 12:14:17 PM

Im not fanatically pro-Israel, but I do support them over Hamas and Hezbollah. I would love to see peace in the region but it wont happen so long as the terrorist organizations keep fucking things up. I am looking at this as objectively as I can through the prism of history and current events.

Its hard to say Israel is wrong for defending its people. And its easy to see why Hamas and the Palestinians are suffering heavy casualties. The article TKE-Teg posted is very insightful. Israel has less civilian casualties because they care for their civilians. They build bomb shelters and sirens to warn people of incoming rockets, and the security at public places is top notch to prevent and reduce casualties from suicide bombings. Hamas on the other hand relishes in the civilian deaths and does nothing to prevent them. Rather, they actively try to put civilians in harms way because they love the propaganda. Hamas could easily build bomb shelters to protect civilians but they would rather build tunnels to smuggle weapons. They cry about the humanitarian crisis, but then use a temporary cease fire intended to allow humanitarian aid in to launch an offensive.

The world is still an inherently anti semitic place, and that hate is focused on Israel no matter what they do. The protests show that its not just a "pro-Palestinian" motive but also an "anti Jew" as well. All in all I say good for Israel. The Israeli military's motto is "never again", referring to the holocaust, and they make good on that. Israel is not going to lay down and take it without a fight. There have been many instances where Israel has been willing to make peace. They pulled out of Sinai, Golan, Gaza and the West Bank. They have taken down settlements, pissing off their own people...but nothing is good enough. The view of Hamas, and many Arabs and Persians is still that Israel has no right to exist. I mean look at the Iranian presidents comments (cant spell his name). You cant make peace with that which is unreasonable and denies your very existence. Yet still Israel tries, but the world opinion remains against them. I have been to Israel and its a nice place filled with decent normal people who just want this bullshit to end, but it wont so long as the terrorists continue. The world hatred is more anti-Jew then anti-Israel. Israel is like the strong quiet kid on the play ground and Hamas is like the smack talking punk who picks a fight and gets his ass kicked and runs crying to the teacher.

1/13/2009 12:15:51 PM

^ thanks. i knew you would come! i asked you because you always come out to play. even if i disagree with you (i'm not saying i do) you always have good thoughts.

^^^ but this is still kind of relevant to us pro israel policy, no?

^^ i saw that!! would IIIII be oversimplifying it if i said the whole problem was the european colonization of the middle east and africa. probably. but it sounds good.

1/13/2009 12:27:56 PM

I think European colonization of Africa, Asia and the Mid-East has been the cause of lots of war and economic strife, and theoretically could be the start of this mess. Honestly though, if the holocaust had not happened Israel would not exist as it does now. The holocaust was obviously the catalyst which started this whole mess.

1/13/2009 12:34:08 PM

Ok, so say if the Holocaust had still happened, but we put the state of Israel somewhere else. Would we still have this problem?

1/13/2009 12:35:56 PM

say your dad pulled out of your mom.

would you still be posting stupid questions?

1/13/2009 1:15:34 PM

Israel was going to be where it is regardless of the Holocaust. Jews had already two mass migrations there prior to WWII. Israel would have happened anyway, the Holocaust just sped up the process.

And yes, there would still be a problem. They also looked at part of Argentina to make the Jewish homeland. There's no history or purpose to that land from a Jewish context, so why would they go there? Then when the rest of Argentina complains about losing land then there's not as much of a will to fight for it.

[Edited on January 13, 2009 at 2:34 PM. Reason : -]

1/13/2009 2:31:57 PM

Quote :

"Israel has less civilian casualties because they care for their civilians. They build bomb shelters and sirens to warn people of incoming rockets, and the security at public places is top notch to prevent and reduce casualties from suicide bombings."

This isn't entirely fair. Israel has the resources and physical space to build such protection for its citizens. Gaza is not only dirt poor, but it's insanely crowded, more so by a long shot even than Israel. For any shelters it built to be effective, they'd have to be quite large and elaborate.

Quote :

"The world hatred is more anti-Jew then anti-Israel."

This, also, is not really accurate. Iran, for example, has a Jewish population that by most accounts is treated fairly and equally under the law, and who have a strong enough attachment to Iran to stay there in spite of economic incentives from Zionist groups to move to Israel. It's also worth pointing out that a fair number of Jews abroad are fairly anti-Israel.

That all being said, most of your post seems accurate and we are essentially in agreement.

Quote :

"would IIIII be oversimplifying it if i said the whole problem was the european colonization of the middle east and africa. probably."

Maybe not the whole problem, but a very large part of it. The start of European presence in the Middle East after WWI was based on outright lies told to local leaders, whose support in the campaign against the Ottomans we promised to reward with independence. Then England and France split most of the region up along fairly arbitrary lines and kept it for a while, with all sorts of negative consequences, including modern headlines in Iraq and Israel.

Quote :

"Honestly though, if the holocaust had not happened Israel would not exist as it does now."

Ehhhh....maybe. Remember, the British had already promised to create a Jewish homeland in Palestine, and Zionism had been a growing movement for some time. Nazi Germany was not the only place where Jews had a rough go of it. There were pogroms in Eastern Europe and Russia and regular old antisemitism everywhere else, to say nothing of the history that had gone before the 20th century -- not a pleasant one.

Before the Holocaust, Jews had already moved to Palestine in some numbers. They had a promise from the British for a homeland there. The situation today might not be exactly the same, but it could easily be close without a Holocaust.

1/13/2009 2:49:56 PM