Quote :

"so, do nothing?"

....because whenever there's a problem, the government should do something.

How's this for doing something:
1) People and businesses remain free from paternalistic legislation
2) Some choose to eat unhealthily and many of them die decades too early
3) Others see this happen and it motivates them to learn about healthy eating
4) Still others see this happen, but don't care -- choosing to eat unhealthily despite the risk
5) In the end, some will always choose to be unhealthy, but we'll all have the educated choice
[6) Crazies on the left will forever claim that people are incapable of making choices in the face of advertising ]



This deserves repeating:

Quote :

"so, 'screw our country', that's what you're saying?"

Quote :

"More like screw the people who screw themselves."

1/13/2010 12:35:54 PM

^&^^good posts.

And I've have to say that a lot of these problems could be avoided with better education as well as upbringing (being taught personal responsibility).

1/13/2010 12:47:26 PM

Quote :

"1) People and businesses remain free from paternalistic legislation 2) Some choose to eat unhealthily and many of them die decades too early 3) Others see this happen and it motivates them to learn about healthy eating 4) Still others see this happen, but don't care -- choosing to eat unhealthily despite the risk 5) In the end, some will always choose to be unhealthy, but we'll all have the educated choice [6) Crazies on the left will forever claim that people are incapable of making choices in the face of advertising"

Counterpoint: Cigarette companies.

[Edited on January 13, 2010 at 12:56 PM. Reason : ]

1/13/2010 12:56:22 PM

If me eating near other people made food go into their mouth, I might welcome comparisons between cigarette regulation and food regulation. Also, you must eat food.

1/13/2010 1:08:23 PM

It was well known that cigarettes caused cancer. The cigarette companies still did some horrible shit to keep people addicted. They denied it until the government stepped in and said "We're going to fuck you up."

1/13/2010 1:16:04 PM

anyone with half a brain should know that putting SMOKE in your lungs multiple times a day can't be good for you

1/13/2010 1:32:43 PM

Anyone with half a brain should know that putting TRANS FATS in your stomach multiple times a day can't be good for you

1/13/2010 1:56:53 PM

^ Given that the major source of trans fats and the only place where transfats are now regulated is in fast food, I would say that yes, anyone with half a brain could have told you that a diet consisting primarily of fast foods is bad for you.

I mean, we can go on and on all day about how evil corporations are forcing innocent unsuspecting Americans to do unhealthy things, but at the end of the day, all of these things boil down to simple things anyone can tell you:

Smoke is bad for your health, regardless of what's burning.

Eating whole meals consisting of nothing but processed meat products and fried foods is unhealthy for you.

The simple fact is, people know these things, but they choose to do them anyway. And make no mistake about it, you can whine all you want about how nothing you can get at McDonalds is under 300 calories, but in the end, you chose to walk into the McDonalds, and voluntarily exchange your money for something you knew was unhealthy.

1/13/2010 3:12:06 PM

Obesity rates idle as most of us are already fat
January 13, 2010

Quote :

"America's rapid rise in obesity appears to have leveled off, with new government figures showing no significant increase in a decade."

http://news.mobile.msn.com/en-us/articles.aspx?aid=34832702&afid=1

1/13/2010 3:13:17 PM

1/13/2010 3:21:51 PM

^ So, the science claiming "no significant increase in a decade" in obesity is wrong?

1/13/2010 3:35:40 PM

Feel free to post the rest of your article.

Quote :

"But there's little reason to cheer. More than two-thirds of adults and almost a third of children are overweight, and there are no signs of improvement. Experts say they're not sure whether the lull in the battle of the bulge can be attributed to more awareness and better diets - or whether society has simply reached a maximum level of tubbiness. "Maybe in this environment, this is as overweight as we'll get," said Gary Foster, director of the Temple University Center for Obesity Research and Education. Not only are the vast majority of adults - 68 percent - overweight, 34 percent are obese; and 17 percent of children are obese. Even the youngest Americans are affected - 10 percent of babies and toddlers are precariously heavy."

You're such a deceitful mother fucker, hooksaw.

1/13/2010 3:45:33 PM

^ Um. . .I linked to the entire article for all to read. I simply posted the excerpt I wanted to emphasize--as I and others here often do. And the obesity-related fact that I posted hasn't changed one bit as a result of your name-calling.

So, what's your beef? Have you been checked for rabies lately?

1/13/2010 3:52:14 PM

This issue is not due to a lack of individual self-discipline, self-control, personal responsibility, or any other term we use to describe the timeless and enduring fallibility of man.

The food industry is motivated by profits, like all capitalist firms. It is important to note here though that the food companies (like the drug companies) are different from other firms in that they affect our health. For instance, if you get tricked into buying a pair of poorly made shoes that you don't even need, and they fall apart after a week of wear, you've been ripped off to the tune of, say, forty bucks. On the other hand, if you're served large portions of barely labelled "processed food product," you've been ripped off at the expense of your health.

Right now, I'm not drawing any conclusions about food legislation one way or another. I'm just saying that if you're going to include yourself in this debate, you must acknowledge the unique nature of food firms and get over the idea that this whole mess is because millions of people were raised wrong or some such bullshit.

1/13/2010 4:05:31 PM

Quote :

"This issue is not due to a lack of individual self-discipline, self-control, personal responsibility, or any other term we use to describe the timeless and enduring fallibility of man."

lmao

1/13/2010 4:09:49 PM

Quote :

"^ Um. . .I linked to the entire article for all to read. I simply posted the excerpt I wanted to emphasize--as I and others here often do. And the obesity-related fact that I posted hasn't changed one bit as a result of your name-calling. So, what's your beef? Have you been checked for rabies lately?"

Much like the corporations you're defending, you were being intentionally misleading. Lying by omission is still lying.

1/13/2010 4:13:55 PM

Quote :

"The food industry is motivated by profits, like all capitalist firms. It is important to note here though that the food companies (like the drug companies) are different from other firms in that they affect our health. For instance, if you get tricked into buying a pair of poorly made shoes that you don't even need, and they fall apart after a week of wear, you've been ripped off to the tune of, say, forty bucks. On the other hand, if you're served large portions of barely labelled "processed food product," you've been ripped off at the expense of your health."

Who is holding a gun to my head telling me to buy large portions of food? Who is holding a gun to my head telling me to eat all of the large portion that I purchased?

For that matter, who is holding a gun to my head telling me to buy shoes I don't need?

1/13/2010 4:18:51 PM

That's not the point. The point is that they deliberately target minorities with cheap shitty food that leads to obesity, early onset diabetes, and heart failure.

1/13/2010 4:23:55 PM

^its easier for these bums to put the responsibility on somebody else.

1/13/2010 4:28:10 PM

^You have to relinquish that attitude if you want to study/discuss/debate this topic in a serious way.

It is not that simple. We are making discoveries all the time that explain the obesity epidemic well beyond "bums don't got no responsibility!"

1/13/2010 4:35:55 PM

So it's marketing then? Not only should business not serve fatty foods, but they shouldn't market them either? What the fuck do you want restaurants to do exactly? Dole out government approved food pellets that offer the precise amount of nutrition as prescribed by the director-general of the food administration?

"Minorities" have as much willpower as non-"minorities" and therefore have as much personal responsibility. I see tons of ads for new cars and shit directly targeted to affluent white people such as myself but somehow I don't put myself in a shit-ton of debt buying a car I don't need.

It is not McDonald's fault that the average lower-income person has become too lazy to cook a meal or that parents have gotten too lax to force their children to sit down to a meal or exercise. And it's not up to the government to fix this problem. If people want to be fat and lazy, let them.

Stop supporting people that cause their own sickness and the problem will correct itself, not that I'm totally convinced that there's a problem.

[Edited on January 13, 2010 at 4:38 PM. Reason : .]

1/13/2010 4:36:45 PM

Look, if your kid gets early onset diabetes and obesity due to your negligence by not giving them a healthy diet and ignoring the blatant truth of the nutrition content of fast food, you should not only have your children taken away from you, but you should be thrown in jail.

There, I said it.

[Edited on January 13, 2010 at 4:40 PM. Reason : ^ ]

1/13/2010 4:39:53 PM

Indeed.

Is it mcDonald's fault or the parents'?

1/13/2010 4:44:03 PM

McDonalds for marketing shit it knows leads to heart disease without warning people.

Parents for knowing that it does and being too lazy to educate their kids or serve them healthy food.

Honestly I'd be fine with the same thing that happened to tobacco. Put warnings on food, clearly marked calorie and fat amounts, and require educational commercials be shown.

[Edited on January 13, 2010 at 4:45 PM. Reason : ]

1/13/2010 4:45:19 PM

Quote :

"Who is holding a gun to my head telling me to buy large portions of food? Who is holding a gun to my head telling me to eat all of the large portion that I purchased? For that matter, who is holding a gun to my head telling me to buy shoes I don't need?"

Okay, fine, suppose it's a small portion of "processed food product." It's still bad for your health since it's not food the way we think it is. And a lot of these foods are designed specifically to get you to eat a lot of them. Never mind how they are advertised so aggressively.

And another difference between the food industry and other industries is that you can't see it as a bad product right away. The shoes fall apart. You see this and tell your friends not to buy shoes from that store. They don't. The store shuts down. On the other hand, you walk into a grocery where the vast majority of the products are overprocessed AND are made by a mere handful of large corporations...you pick something out...it's not nutritious, it doesn't satisfy your appetite, and it leads to negative health outcomes...some people don't know that...they can't tell their friends.

They don't realize that their cereal (advertised as vitamin-rich and purchased for that specific reason) is fortified with vitamins that won't even get absorbed...they're trying to be healthy and they still end up eating corn for breakfast and wondering why they're hungry less than an hour later. And you don't have a problem with that? You think it's all their fault?

[Edited on January 13, 2010 at 4:46 PM. Reason : ?]

1/13/2010 4:45:49 PM

Quote :

"On the other hand, if you're served large portions of barely labelled "processed food product," you've been ripped off at the expense of your health. "

And what places do you go to ordering what you think is health food only to be served "barely labelled processed food product"? The simple fact of the matter is that no one walks into McDonalds expecting health food. No one who's primary source of food is burgerking thinks they're getting the best they can get. We've been over this before, if people are honestly concerned about their health and what they're eating, they make their own food, and they stay away from fast food.

Quote :

"That's not the point. The point is that they deliberately target minorities with cheap shitty food that leads to obesity, early onset diabetes, and heart failure."

So what? Are minorities somehow unable to control their urges for overly fattening, fried, highly processed foods? Are they somehow lacking in the ability to put beans or rice in a pot as opposed to handing over their hard earned cash for over priced garbage? Are they genetically predisposed to not being able to put chicken in an oven?

Quote :

"[picture of fat kid at McDonalds"

The funny thing is, that's not a picture from the US

Quote :

"McDonalds for marketing shit it knows leads to heart disease without warning people."

How much more warning do you need? Their packaging says "Now made with real meat!" as if that's something they should be proud of. You walk in the door and you can see right into the kitchen where EVERYTHING is fried is giant vats of oil. And when you get the food and put it on a napkin, you could squeeze enough grease out of the napkin to go 100 miles in your bio fuel car. Also, most of the fast food places do put their calorie and fat amounts right on the wrapping of your food. Turns out, it's not telling people anything they didn't already know.

Quote :

"Okay, fine, suppose it's a small portion of "processed food product." It's still bad for your health since it's not food the way we think it is. And a lot of these foods are designed specifically to get you to eat a lot of them. Never mind how they are advertised so aggressively."

And all of this is irrelevant if instead of driving to your local McDonalds, you got off your ass and through some pasta in a pot and made your own damn food. In the end, it doesn't matter how shitty the food is if you aren't buying it in the first place.

Quote :

"On the other hand, you walk into a grocery where the vast majority of the products are overprocessed AND are made by a mere handful of large corporations...you pick something out...it's not nutritious, it doesn't satisfy your appetite, and it leads to negative health outcomes...some people don't know that...they can't tell their friends."

Every single food product in the store is mandated by law to have an ingredient list. If you can't look at that and tell the difference between "Flour, water, egg, sugar" bread and "Glucose, Highfructose corn syrup, asorbic acid, eye of newt, animal products" bread, then you have some pretty big problems. Further, if the food isn't satisfying you appetite, why do you keep buying it?

Quote :

"And you don't have a problem with that? You think it's all their fault? "

Pretty much. The information is out there and easily available. If you really need someone to walk behind you in the grocery store and tell you to put down the Fruit Loops (which BTW, it may dismay you to find out, do not actually contain fruit) and pick up the rolled oats and apples, then you probably have no business actually living on your own.

1/13/2010 5:34:43 PM

I love how Libertarians excuse childhood diabetes because they want to protect everyone's freedoms.

1/13/2010 5:39:10 PM

If you want to make childhood diabetes illegal, then go ahead, label it child abuse, make it illegal and start arresting parents. Start taking happy meals away from kids at McDonalds. Surely you would step in if you saw some guy beating the shit out of his kid, so start stepping in when you see them forcing big macs down their kids throats. Good luck with that. Just don't try and do an end run around the system.

They really should update the old saying, it should now be:

"The road to hell is paved with the thoughts of children."

[Edited on January 13, 2010 at 5:45 PM. Reason : sadf]

1/13/2010 5:43:51 PM

Who is "excusing" childhood diabetes? Your solution is to force everyone to eat how you want them to eat. That's bullshit. You act as if government can effectively control people's diets, and you're completely willing to hand them the power to do that. Has it ever crossed your mind that they might not make very good decisions, or that they might ban some food that you enjoy somewhere down the road?

1/13/2010 5:44:19 PM

You're right.

I mean, why do we even have the FDA? The government shouldn't restrict my right to take any medications or food, regardless of how they've been tested or their effect on me. MY FREEDOMS are being restricted.

All we need is for people to EDUCATE themselves. We can let the corporations do whatever they want and market their products however they want. If their products cause death, I have the right to choose to take them! Free market rules!

1/13/2010 5:46:37 PM

Why do we have the FDA? That's a pretty good question. They've approved many harmful drugs, and have refused to approve many other drugs that are not harmful at all. It's like people think the FDA has a crystal ball that tells them exactly what is and isn't harmful. They have a terrible track record. Even though you were being facetious, I agree with that sentence completely.

Who said we're going to let the corporations do whatever they want or market however they want? If they're releasing something as food that's toxic, they can be sued for that. If they use false advertising schemes, they can also be sued for that.

You've set up this false choice where it's either "government gets to control what we put in our bodies" or "everyone gets to do whatever they want and no one is punished for anything." I'm advocating something entirely different: people decide what they want to put in their body, whether it's drugs, food, cyanide, or whatever, and if some person (or a company) causes harm to another person through fraud or the use of force, they get punished for it.

[Edited on January 13, 2010 at 5:57 PM. Reason : ]

1/13/2010 5:56:22 PM

^^
That would all work fine, if only the market worked properly -- which it can, if we fix it.

Quote :

"Counterpoint: Cigarette companies."

I was unaware that there were only a handful of food companies that all conspired together to commit fraud. That's really the only issue with cigarettes that matters much, and it is decades out of date -- I mean, today, it'd be nearly impossible to find someone that's unaware of the risks of smoking.

If it's the companies or their actions that you don't like, that's fine -- I don't like them much either.... but free speech and free enterprise are not to blame. Perhaps if we had a working market where boycotts and buycotts actually worked, these large companies that feel like they can just do whatever they want, would wake up to the reality that consumers are [supposed to be] the ones with the power. After the tobacco debacle decades ago, were there a dozen other new tobacco companies that popped up to satisfy the demand for tobacco from non-fraud-committing businesses? No. Corporations enjoy immortality -- we're stuck with the same bullshit companies. THAT, THAT IS THE PROBLEM. After companies put out inappropriate ads targeting children, do we see a dozen other new food companies pop up to satisfy the demand for food from businesses that choose to abstain from inappropriate advertising? No. Corporations enjoy immortality -- our choices are still limited. THAT, THAT IS THE PROBLEM. Fix the market. Give consumers power by fixing the market.

^7

Quote :

"You think it's all their fault?"

All? Perhaps not, but "you liberals" simply have to recognize that it's mostly their fault. Personal responsibility is paramount. (And the parents of children are just as responsible for changing diapers as they are for educating their kids about food choices and health.)

Quote :

"I love how [some] Libertarians [seem to] excuse childhood diabetes because they want to protect everyone's freedoms."

Fixed it.

Quote :

"Look, if your kid gets early onset diabetes and obesity due to your negligence by not giving them a healthy diet and ignoring the blatant truth of the nutrition content of fast food, you should not only have your children taken away from you, but you should be thrown in jail. There, I said it."

I agree. It's ultimately the parents fault, not the unhealthy food advertisers.

[Edited on January 13, 2010 at 6:08 PM. Reason : ]

1/13/2010 5:57:52 PM

Quote :

"Why do we have the FDA? That's a pretty good question."

Are you suggesting that we disband the FDA?

1/13/2010 6:00:21 PM

Yes.

1/13/2010 6:00:34 PM

Quote :

"I was unaware that there were only a handful of food companies that all conspired together to commit fraud."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto

1/13/2010 6:07:45 PM

Quote :

"The funny thing is, that's not a picture from the US"

1337 b4k4 pwnt God

LOL!

Quote :

"Much like the corporations you're defending, you were being intentionally misleading. Lying by omission is still lying."

God

YOU are a liar and a buffoon. So, now it's the fault of the person who posted an article if the viewer was too fucking lazy to click on the posted link and read the article? I think I see a pattern here. . . .

1/13/2010 6:09:54 PM

^^^



[Edited on January 13, 2010 at 6:10 PM. Reason : .]

1/13/2010 6:10:07 PM

Quote :

"Monsanto"

Oooooooo, I hate them. They are worse than the tobacco companies. Of course, they never controlled anywhere near all the food sales, nor conspired with nearly every other food producer. (yet? )

1/13/2010 6:11:00 PM

Quote :

"I mean, why do we even have the FDA? The government shouldn't restrict my right to take any medications or food, regardless of how they've been tested or their effect on me. MY FREEDOMS are being restricted. All we need is for people to EDUCATE themselves. We can let the corporations do whatever they want and market their products however they want. If their products cause death, I have the right to choose to take them! Free market rules!"

Counterpoint: Fen-Phen, Processed peanut butter, tomatoes, and that's just recently.

1/13/2010 6:25:16 PM

^ Well they aren't infallible, but it's better than the 1800s where meat workers who fell into rendering vats were left and sold as lard.

1/13/2010 6:31:04 PM

I'm shocked, yes shocked that no one is clamoring for government testing of all electronic consumer devices. Could that be because UL has done such an exemplary job and is now considered the standard for product safety?

I'd much rather have independent labs test and certify food and drug quality and safety than continue to watch as life saving drugs are unnecessarily held up for years and years by the FDA. As much as some of you bitch about the lack of cheap, affordable health care you'd think you'd want to eliminate one of the primary barriers.

I think it would be great if we had no FDA or if the FDA could be held liable for approving a harmful product.

1/13/2010 7:01:20 PM

Quote :

"I'd much rather have independent labs test and certify food and drug quality"

That sounds nice. But the private sector hasn't stepped up to the plate in this area as well as they have with electronics. So...the public sector fills that need.

1/13/2010 9:23:16 PM

^ That might have something to do with the fact that FDA certifications are mandatory, therefore, no room for the private sector. By comparison, UL certification is voluntary. But for what it's worth, I don't think we should dissolve the FDA in its entirety. Rather it should be changed from a regulatory body to an informational body, which does testing and provides certifications but doesn't necessarily restrict.

1/13/2010 11:44:20 PM

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-sci-obesity14-2010jan14,0,6185851.story

Obesity rates have finally started to level off (for the time being).

maybe these food police aren't so bad afterall?

1/14/2010 11:43:38 AM

^
Yeah, and maybe post hoc ergo propter hoc.

1/14/2010 12:18:05 PM

Being being informed about how to lead a healthy lifestyle has little to do with food police. Another thing to consider is that eventually the US population runs out of people that become obese. There's only so many irresponsible, ignorant, genetically susceptible, or uncaring people to be classified as obese. There's bound to be a limit.

I'm not saying you're wrong and I have no proof, but there are a variety of possible reasons. Nonetheless, it is good news.


Slightly OT, but have any of you ppl seen In Bruges? This thread reminds me of the scene when the fat American tourists try to climb a church belltower

1/14/2010 1:02:02 PM

^^^ Obesity rates idle as most of us are already fat
January 13, 2010

Quote :

"America's rapid rise in obesity appears to have leveled off, with new government figures showing no significant increase in a decade."

http://news.mobile.msn.com/en-us/articles.aspx?aid=34832702&afid=1

^^ Yep.



[Edited on January 14, 2010 at 3:59 PM. Reason : I was attacked for posting this--of course.]

1/14/2010 3:58:37 PM

^ i would have never pegged you for a chubby chaser

V you’re right, i did mis-read it… my bad

[Edited on January 14, 2010 at 11:36 PM. Reason : ]

1/14/2010 11:21:15 PM

^lol, huh? Maybe you misread my post?

*scratches head*

1/14/2010 11:23:09 PM

Just FYI:

Kraft and Cadbury Agree on Friendly Merger
January 19, 2010

Quote :

"NEW YORK — After months of fiercely resisting any deal, Cadbury agreed Tuesday to an improved takeover offer from Kraft, worth about $19 billion, to create the world's largest confectioner. Together Kraft, the maker of Oreo cookies and Ritz crackers, and Cadbury, the producer of Trident gum and Dairy Milk chocolates, would have more than $50 billion in annual revenue and a big presence in markets from the United States to India. The deal continues a trend seen over the past decade, in which food companies have sought to gain scale by combining with one another. Most recently, Mars bought the William Wrigley Jr. Co. in 2008 for $23 billion."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/20/business/global/20kraft.html

1/19/2010 6:49:38 AM