no one's rights have been trumped. i have the right to say all sorts of things that would probably get me death threats. but that doesn't mean that i want to say them just to prove that i can. or to make some asinine point about freedom of speech.

and the fact that this is a facebook thing is even more amusing. are you facebook friends with many islamists? then who is actually going to see these drawings?

i think this starts to get at more of a point: how many of you guys are friends / work with muslim people? of those that do know some, would you email this drawing to those people? why or why not?

5/21/2010 9:19:48 AM

I have several muslim friends and co-workers.

Obviously, I would not send them such drawings, because I like these people.

5/21/2010 9:21:13 AM

Why not? Aren't you letting them restrict your freedom of speech?

5/21/2010 9:23:06 AM

Are you being serious? Is being polite that offensive to you?



p.s.

5/21/2010 9:34:47 AM

Quote :

"no one's rights have been trumped."

Tell it to Theo Van Gogh. Oh wait, you can't. He's DEAD.

But you can tell it to Lars Vilks. He'll laugh right in your face.

[Edited on May 21, 2010 at 9:47 AM. Reason : *]

5/21/2010 9:46:24 AM

^^ lol, if that was to me, I was being ironic

5/21/2010 9:47:45 AM

5/21/2010 10:01:31 AM

I don't use facebook.

Who cares whether it would offend my friends? The POINT is that there exists people that would murder you for doing this. By doing this, you are sending a message to those people that the fact that a person would murder another for drawing an image is stupid.

5/21/2010 10:01:53 AM

Quote :

"I have several muslim friends and co-workers. Obviously, I would not send them such drawings, because I like these people."

Exactly. Anyone who thinks this is a 'great idea' obviously doesn't know any Muslims. They think its cool to offend a bunch of fanatics living in caves halfway across the world when in fact they're also offending any Muslim who inhabits this planet.

People have made death threats over far less AND carried them out. This isn't anything new. But somehow people are ignorant enough to think they're changing the world and forcing Muslims to obey and not think of their prophet as sacred.

This same people want to hide under the 'freedom of expression' umbrella. But here is the thing. No ones freedom is being trampled here. As I've said before, Mohammed is only significant to Muslims, he's their prophet, why is it more important to you to draw him? If you want to draw a comic mocking Arabs, draw your generic towel head riding a camel I still have yet to see a single valid non-selfish reason why drawing Mohammed is so important.

[Edited on May 21, 2010 at 5:23 PM. Reason : .]

5/21/2010 5:17:43 PM

Quote :

"Why not? Aren't you letting them restrict your freedom of speech?"

don't be an idiot.

5/21/2010 5:18:56 PM

Quote :

"STOP SAYING JEHOVAH!"

5/21/2010 6:10:37 PM

tromboner950's awesome and mature post: (broken into parts)

Quote :

"Drawing Muhammad has nothing to do with hate, and does not just come out of nowhere. It's not hostility for the sake of hostility, there is a reason for it."

It obviously has something to do with hate, otherwise the majority of cartoons wouldn't be so disgusting that they rival nasty Japanese porn. If the only purpose was to have Muslims accept that Muhammad can be drawn, just make a simple non-offensive drawing of him. (which would still meet disapproval from most Muslims, but at least then, you could tell the world "hey we just made a nice drawing and they want to harm us, so we are the sane ones and they are insane". But the way it is being done now, not only are you enraging hardliners even more, but also distancing moderate Muslims by the filthy depictions, which completely goes against your stated goals below)

Quote :

"Moreover, it's a movement that is guaranteed to succeed if it continues. Like it or not, continued frivolous drawing of Muhammad will gradually desensitize people to it. Eventually, there will be more people who stop caring."

You can tell the future? How do you know how Muslims will react to this in the long term, what they hold sacred, which beliefs they can let go, and which ones they will hold unflinchingly forever?

Quote :

"That's really the point -- pay attention to this, for once -- the point is to get people to stop being overly sensitive and reactionary, and to get more of our society to grow up and act like reasonable and mature adults."

So threatening someone with death is unreasonable and immature (which it is), but drawing pornographic pictures of people's Prophets is reasonable and mature? Hey, I am going to make you behave reasonably and maturely by acting in a completely unreasonable and immature way!

Quote :

"It's far more helpful than hateful."

Is it really? (helpful) When this campaign actually helps anybody, let me know. Post your success stories here.

*************************************************************************

I don't get the fascination of these assholes with drawing Muhammad. Draw a cartoon against blacks, and you are written off as a racist and sidelined. Draw a cartoon against the Holocaust, and you are branded an anti-semite and your career and public life vanish. IOW, normal people dare not approach those 2 subjects even if they want to because they know they will be called cuckoo and ostracized. But for some reason, 'normal' people all over the world want to mainstream (can it be used as a verb?) drawing Muhammad, and in the nastiest most disgusting depictions possible.

Something tells me that if 13% of the US population was Muslim (like Blacks), there would be no Draw Muhammad Day.

Or if Muslims were in the top positions in the Presidential Cabinet (like Jews), there would be no Draw Muhammad Day.

Those who are making these drawings, do they ever do "Draw Your Colleague's Wife as a Whore with ten Penises Inside Her Day"? Why not? Wouldn't it help society to 'desensitize' people against their wives being drawn as whores? Go to a bar and insult someone's wife and you might just end up on the floor, more often than not. So in general, men threaten and do act out violence if their wives are insulted badly. Shouldn't we try to 'desensitize' men to their wives being called nasty names? Why don't you go out and shout obscenities at wives of strangers on streets, in malls, etc. It will benefit humanity as a whole. Eventually we can all smile when someone calls our wife a slut to her face in front of us!

All it boils down to is bigotry, hatred, and two-facedness.

5/21/2010 6:14:41 PM

0EPII1, damnit, if I don't find pornographic drawings of your wife offensive then there is absolutely no reason why you should either!

5/21/2010 6:24:49 PM

5/21/2010 6:26:58 PM

i kid

5/21/2010 6:35:55 PM

5/21/2010 6:41:50 PM

Quote :

"But here is the thing. No ones freedom is being trampled here."

Quote :

"Tell it to Theo Van Gogh. Oh wait, you can't. He's DEAD. But you can tell it to Lars Vilks. He'll laugh right in your face."

[Edited on May 21, 2010 at 9:56 PM. Reason : *]

5/21/2010 9:53:56 PM

Quote :

"But you can tell it to Lars Vilks. He'll laugh right in your face."

Lol, am I supposed to be impressed by this guy? He's despicable and his art sucks.

5/21/2010 10:01:10 PM

you don't get people to stop drawing muhammad by getting angry and banning them. You only inspire them to do it more. The only reason people do it is to get a rise out of people. The people that started this are getting EXACTLY what they wanted. A bunch of pissed off people.

I mean imagine how flattering it would be to you if you started some event and an entire country banned it...i'd have a big head for at least 3 months...just saying

5/21/2010 10:12:16 PM

Quote :

"It obviously has something to do with hate, otherwise the majority of cartoons wouldn't be so disgusting that they rival nasty Japanese porn."

Quote :

"but drawing pornographic pictures of people's Prophets is reasonable and mature?"

What the fuck are you going on about? Is this why you people have been so stubborn in this thread? Because you think everyone wants to draw prophet porn? No wonder there's such a huge misunderstanding going on here.

I for one have yet to see any pornographic drawings of the prophet, so you must be going out of your way to find them. I'd be interested to know if it's coming from anywhere besides perhaps 4chan...


...Also, that's not what I'm advocating, and I'm sorry that you thought it was. I'm talking about protecting freedom of artistic expression. I'll agree with you that going for shock value and vulgarity is just dickish and pointless.

When I refer to drawings of Mohammad, I'm not talking about porn. The one from South Park that revived this whole issue was a picture of a giant teddy bear, for example. The "Everybody Draw Mohammad Day" poster has images of foods and random objects claiming to be the true likeness of Mohammad in speech bubbles. The cartoon at the top of this page just shows him as a guy with a turban. Your assumption that this whole thing revolves around porn and vulgarity is way off-base (though I don't doubt that there is a large hate-based segment of this movement coming from the shittier areas of the internet. Hell, it might even be the majority of the movement, but it's certainly far from being the intellectual or artistic side that I've been referring to).

At least I understand your stance a bit better now, knowing that you've been finding porn instead of, you know, just normal cartoons. Before, I thought you were actually trying to claim that things like spools of thread and bear suits were vulgar simply because they happened to depict Mohammad.

[Edited on May 22, 2010 at 6:29 AM. Reason : .]

5/22/2010 6:16:44 AM

Quote :

"The only reason people do it is to get a rise out of people"

Quote :

"Do your part to both water down the pool of targets and, oh yeah, defend a little something our country is famous for (but maybe not for long? Comedy Central cooperated with terrorists and pulled the episode) the first amendment "

You might be fine with people murdering others over drawings, but I'm not.

5/22/2010 7:31:51 AM

^and this thread is a prime example of why disco can have a problem with religion

5/22/2010 8:00:18 AM

Quote :

"Lol, am I supposed to be impressed by this guy? He's despicable and his art sucks."

WTF are you babbling about? YOU claimed no one's rights were being trampled. Vilks was physically attacked over his artistic expression. Regardless of whether you like his art or or not, his right to express it was trampled, his right to not be beaten was trampled and his right to speak publicly was trampled.

Quit dodging your own statements, you prick.

5/22/2010 10:42:02 AM

Quote :

"and the fact that this is a facebook thing is even more amusing. are you facebook friends with many islamists? then who is actually going to see these drawings? "

The point as I understand it isn’t necessarily to get specific individual muslims to see it and be offended. It’s to cause Pakistan to do things like block facebook, which will piss off the moderate muslims in Pakistan, which might cause them to encourage their crazy muslim friends that drawings aren’t so bad.

It’s also to create a more open dialog about “hey why threaten death against the non-muslims who are drawing the cartoons?” I think it was OEPIII who said earlier that he saw “ordinary” muslims get really pissed off about the drawings earlier. This is not a reasonable response.

And pointing out that a small number might only actually really want death isn’t relevant, when a fair amount of the rest stay silent. It’s just like how only a small number of actual US Christians might want to remove evolution from the science class, but that doesn’t stop the rest from keeping their mouths shut when this small number gains some ground.

5/22/2010 10:50:19 AM

^^that is interesting in the context of the rand paul / civil rights act debate. because in the 1960s one could say that the business owners had every right to open integrated stores and that no one's rights were being trampled. but in reality, threats of violence to those that extended those rights were very real -- thus stifling those who would try to advance equality in some communities. this was often allowed to persist because of sympathetic local and state gov'ts in many cases.

but it seems to me that there really isn't much of a party sympathetic to the murderers (and those threatening to murder) over these drawings -- especially not in this country.

^i just see that reaction as much less likely than a lot of pakistanis thinking there are a lot of westerners who either don't understand their religion or just don't respect it.

[Edited on May 22, 2010 at 11:12 AM. Reason : .]

5/22/2010 11:09:10 AM

Quote :

"WTF are you babbling about? YOU claimed no one's rights were being trampled. Vilks was physically attacked over his artistic expression. Regardless of whether you like his art or or not, his right to express it was trampled, his right to not be beaten was trampled and his right to speak publicly was trampled. Quit dodging your own statements, you prick."

His rights weren't trampled. He exercised his right to draw whatever he wanted to, does that mean it won't offend someone? no.

Just like some people chose abortion because its their choice and right while others blow up abortion clinics.

Quit being obtuse on purpose, you prick.

Quote :

"The point as I understand it isn’t necessarily to get specific individual muslims to see it and be offended. It’s to cause Pakistan to do things like block facebook, which will piss off the moderate muslims in Pakistan, which might cause them to encourage their crazy muslim friends that drawings aren’t so bad."

I think this statement here gets the Naive Statement of the Year award.

[Edited on May 22, 2010 at 11:18 AM. Reason : .]

5/22/2010 11:16:52 AM

Quote :

"His rights weren't trampled. He exercised his right to draw whatever he wanted to, does that mean it won't offend someone? no."

He doesn't have the right not to be physically assaulted? He doesn't have the right to not have his house burnt down? Or does drawing cartoons of Muhammad cause one to automatically lose those rights?

5/22/2010 11:35:34 AM

my rights to fuck consenting adults are being trampled by people who murder their cheating spouses.

5/22/2010 11:37:49 AM

Quote :

"He doesn't have the right not to be physically assaulted? He doesn't have the right to not have his house burnt down? Or does drawing cartoons of Muhammad cause one to automatically lose those rights?"

If he can't handle the heat of controversy then perhaps he shouldn't be in the kitchen.

Doctors who perform abortion procedures have that right. Does that mean they're immune from being targeted by fanatics or protesters?

5/22/2010 12:16:57 PM

Golovko, let's just get this out. Do you believe people are entitled to assault and kill others because they have been offended?

5/22/2010 12:22:03 PM

Quote :

"Golovko, let's just get this out. Do you believe people are entitled to assault and kill others because they have been offended?"

The fact that you had to ask that clearly means you don't understand the situation or my position.



But to answer your question. No, people do not have that right.

[Edited on May 22, 2010 at 12:25 PM. Reason : forgot the ]

5/22/2010 12:25:08 PM

But yet, you continue to imply that they got what they deserved. And you have never come out against the actions of the people commiting these acts, until now.

5/22/2010 12:36:58 PM

can someone post a cartoon drawing of Muhammad committing a vile sexual act already?

this thread has gone on long enough

5/22/2010 12:37:01 PM

Quote :

"But yet, you continue to imply that they got what they deserved. And you have never come out against the actions of the people commiting these acts, until now."

I never said they got what they deserved. I said they got what they should have expected. I made no indication that I think people should respond violently only that fanatics will respond with violence. This is the world we live in, but for the sake of a few you want to offend many.

5/22/2010 12:39:37 PM

Quote :

"His rights weren't trampled."

5/22/2010 12:43:20 PM

Quote :

"I for one have yet to see any pornographic drawings of the prophet, so you must be going out of your way to find them. I'd be interested to know if it's coming from anywhere besides perhaps 4chan..."

Dude, I went to the Facebook page itself, and many of them were mildly vulgar to disgustingly pornographic.

You want to draw Muhammad as a spool of thread or a sofa or as Obama, go ahead. If people get mad over that, they need to look inside themselves. But sadly, many (majority?) of the depictions are nasty.

5/22/2010 3:13:20 PM

Quote :

"You want to draw Muhammad as a spool of thread or a sofa or as Obama, go ahead. If people get mad over that, they need to look inside themselves. But sadly, many (majority?) of the depictions are nasty."

Yup...pretty much. I find similar pictures of any of our leaders, public figures, etc to be in equally bad taste. Although I'll admit to being a hypocrite because I laughed at the G.W.Bush ones

5/22/2010 3:33:30 PM

Easily my favorite so far:



And a surprising number of them involve Muhammed involved in acts of sexual congress with a pig. There is also an image of Santa taking a dump on Jesus' chest. Both are in bad taste and both are perfectly acceptable drawings because this is fucking America.

5/22/2010 3:42:18 PM

Quote :

"Why not? Aren't you letting them restrict your freedom of speech?"

Oh, Prophet fucking Mohammed, you are about as bad as anyone to ever post in the soap box.

I mean, we're talking salisburyboy, aaronburro, and mambagirl levels of idiocy. Fucking hooksaw made 10x better posts than you do.

[Edited on May 22, 2010 at 3:45 PM. Reason : ^ hahahahahahaha]

5/22/2010 3:45:07 PM

you can build a mosque next to ground zero. we can draw muhhamad. fair?

5/22/2010 4:09:11 PM

Quote :

"because this is fucking America."

because this is fucking America we should expect better from us.

5/22/2010 4:09:43 PM

^^i don't think anyone (in this thread) is saying that you can't draw mohammed. we're saying it's disrespectful to a large portion of the world. and that's pretty much a dick move.

[Edited on May 22, 2010 at 4:10 PM. Reason : .]

5/22/2010 4:10:31 PM

Quote :

"^^i don't think anyone (in this thread) is saying that you can't draw mohammed. we're saying it's disrespectful to a large portion of the world. and that's pretty much a dick move."

exactly.

5/22/2010 4:11:37 PM

first, it was a joke.

second, it doesn't matter. those who are interpreting this as just as an excuse to be a dick are missing the larger point. while it is surely being used by many dicks to act as dickishly as possible, the move is really just an exercise in debate. the movement (if you can even call it that) is about practicing the freedom to debate. nothing should be above that. there is nothing that should be held to such a high sacred value that it becomes immune to introspection/criticism. by no means, is the threat or act of violence an acceptable response to satire. the stance of (well, you piss off angry people, this is what happens) doesn't matter, because nobody has the right to incite violence. and the quiet approval by many is shocking. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPKNyysrDkE Ayaan Hirsi Ali puts it well, that the discussion should encourage the moderates to denounce the acts of violence, and give them the freedom to disagree. because, as it stands, its the silence of the majority that's more appalling than the radicalism of a few.

[Edited on May 22, 2010 at 4:30 PM. Reason : ]

5/22/2010 4:29:12 PM

do you make it a practice to denounce murderers from your race/religion/culture publicly?

5/22/2010 4:38:19 PM

uh....yeah?

5/22/2010 4:39:44 PM

link?

5/22/2010 4:40:20 PM

i don't blog about it, if that's what you mean.

what exactly are you getting at? are you trying to trap me into admitting that i'm not vocal about my opposition to murder?

5/22/2010 4:42:09 PM

i'm saying that most of us don't feel the need to denounce things that are obviously bad. because we don't feel that some random nutjob represents us. for some reason with minorities, other religions, etc, we need some representative from that group to denounce,etc what should be an obviously bad act.

people get murdered every day in this country by all sorts of races for all sorts of reasons. where is the outrage!?!

5/22/2010 4:50:24 PM

^I don't necessarily think thats a blanket statement for all minorities. The problem with Islam is that the Koran condones violence.

You see nothing about a black person killing a black person is inherent in a universal belief that all black people have. Or insert any other race...but inherent in Islam is the idea to kill those that don't convert and when you have people doing that and then you claim the same religion as them it makes one go "RUH-RO"....

Qur'an (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Qur'an (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

5/22/2010 4:57:39 PM