Neon, here is what I will do. I will bust out my Windows 8 netbook and set it down under my Windows 7 desktop monitor. And I'll do a direct comparison.

Quote :

"How you get to control panel in Win8: Press Windows Key, type "C" and hit enter. 0 mouse clicks. Easy as shit. Much less hassle than Win7."

First off, I have to get to the start screen, so 1 mouse click. When I hit "C" and then "enter" Chrome opens! But, control panel is right under Google Chrome. Now, if I had never read anything about Windows 8 before, do you think I would have intuitively known I can just hit "c" and I can search for my programs? Sorry, no.



Now, in Windows 7, I hit the start button, and Control Panel is right there! A total of 2 clicks with no need to search. It's easier and more intuitive than it is in Windows 8. And, if I do hit "c" I get the same search results as I do in Windows 8. So I have 2 easy ways of accessing the same thing, whereas in Windows 8 you're presenting me with only 1 easy way.

Quote :

"Want to get to your mouse settings? Press Windows Key, type "M" "O" "U", arrow down to settings results, and WHAM there's EVERY DAMN MOUSE setting submenu right at your finger tips. No digging through control panel at all."

Ok, I pressed Windows key and typed "M" "O" "U". Ok, let me go to "Settings" underneath the search box. Found it!



Now, in Windows 7, I can hit the Windows key and type "M" "O" "U" and it shows up immediately. No need for me to dig through anything! No need



So as I've been saying, where the fuck is the benefit? Where is it easier? Where is it more intuitive?

You took two of my complaints and tried showing me where it is easier than it was in Windows 7. I performed those actions exactly how you described in Windows 8, and then I did it the Windows 7 method(s), and in each time it was either the same or quicker in Windows 7 than it was in Windows 8.

Quote :

"Your refusal to learn a new, more efficient, easier way to navigate isn't one of them."

Where is it more efficient? Show me, please! If you're able to, I'll be grateful, because I really want to like Windows 8, but I don't see much benefit over Windows 7.

Quote :

"the start screen is easier because you can just start typing and find whatever you want."

I can do that in Windows 7 in the start menu and come up with the same results. How is it easier when if I want to access a list of all of my programs, I have to go to the start screen, right click and then be presented with a button to access all of my apps? If I'm already at the start screen, the number of clicks isn't any more, but it's not as intuitive, as the button to access all of my apps is hidden, with no way of keeping it "always on."

Quote :

"you don't need to go looking around for settings in the control panel or browsing through a list of the installed applications b/c we have easier (read better) ways of finding information now."

What are these better ways of finding information now, and how is it functionally different from Windows 7? Search? Windows 7 has it. Pin to the start screen? Well, I can pin to the start menu now in Windows 7 and I can pin it to the taskbar. I shouldn't have to read some guy's blog to know this shit, or watch some fucking 10 minute youtube video to know how to do one specific thing that's in the video. Do you honestly think most people will do this? If it's not obvious and if it's not easy, most people aren't going to be bothered with it, and such, they'll just get pissed off with it.

Did you see the shit storm Windows Vista had just for renaming a few things in the control panel, changing some elements of the UI and redoing old utilities? It pissed people off simply because it was "different."

3/4/2012 2:09:09 AM

I hated this when it was ubuntu unity

3/4/2012 7:56:36 AM

least it's prettier now

shame a lot of the ux is a hot mess

3/4/2012 10:20:18 AM

http://www.theverge.com/2012/3/1/2835346/windows-8-vs-ipad-feature-comparison

3/4/2012 11:50:22 AM

merbig: number of clicks is not the measure of efficiency. Common and VERY stupid assumption to make. Sorry you had to type "CO" instead of "C" to get to control panel.

How would you have known that? BECAUSE ITS HOW YOU GET TO THINGS IN WIN8? How did you know to do the same thing in Windows 7? Because you learned how to do it.

Keep in mind this is a CONSUMER PREVIEW. You are bitching about a pre-beta piece of software that was made available for you, for free, for you to give feedback on.

You just spent god knows how long typing a page of bullshit complaining about a 10 millisecond difference in operations that will be completely negated once you LEARN the new system. You have just spewed one of the most pedantic, stupid, and waste of time complaints I have ever read.

There are dozens, if not hundreds of major problems with Win8's UI. But you picked the one that isn't even a problem with the system, more a problem with a luddite user.

I only HOPE you take that giant dump and actually send it to Microsoft as feedback, so at least it will be read by someone who can do something about it, instead of just bitching.

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_8 to provide feedback

3/4/2012 1:20:13 PM

to anyone who hasn't figured it out, yet, there is never any purpose in arguing with Noen that a microsoft product UI is less than perfect...because you'll always have to listen to how microsoft did so much research and how they listened to consumers and what they produced is the epitome of consumer input made reality

if you disagree with what they've done, it's because you're not the "average" consumer and therefore your complaints are baseless and uninformed

it is a FACT that windows 7 increased the number of mouse clicks for a several common tasks and there was (is) no arguing that it was anything but awesome that microsoft made things harder...how increasing the TIME it takes to do simple things corresponds to an increase in efficiency, i still don't understand

i'm not weighing in on the windows 8 argument because i haven't tried it...but it wouldn't surprise me at all that microsoft made something harder in the name of innovation (well, copying whoever it is that did it first, anyway)

since windows 7 still can't manage to leave my folder views set to what i want instead of what microsoft thinks i need, i'll be excited if windows 8 manages to return to some basic XP functionality of doing as it's told

[Edited on March 4, 2012 at 2:00 PM. Reason : .]

3/4/2012 1:57:32 PM

clearly merbig's problem was daring to use a product (Google Chrome) not endorsed by the Grand Council of Microsoft

3/4/2012 2:17:20 PM

^^Once again you don't even bother to read my post. I said there are TONS of things that are terrible and inefficient with Windows 8. This isn't one of them.

^One of the first things I did was to install Chrome

Here's a video of how awful merbig's life will become in Windows 8. No mouse clicks and <1sec to open control. OH NOES!!!



Now for the mouse settings, merbig has a legit gripe. When there are 0 app results, it should auto-select the next list (settings), and they need to remove the stupid bluetooth options, as they have nothing to do with my search query. This would make mouse search just as fast as control panel (and equally as fast as Win7)

But in the mean time, OH NOES!



[Edited on March 4, 2012 at 2:23 PM. Reason : pointies]

3/4/2012 2:20:43 PM

Quote :

"Once again you don't even bother to read my post. I said there are TONS of things that are terrible and inefficient with Windows 8."

oh, i admitted that i haven't read most of this thread...i'm just noting that you are (for obvious reasons) a microsoft fanboy who, as a general rule, thinks that anything microsoft does is an improvement...which is far from my experience

i don't give a rat's ass about their research or consumer feedback...i care about what makes MY life easier and my experience is that they've made some simple things more difficult (or removed features entirely) for no reason i can fathom since they're not faster (and so by my metric, less efficient)

*shrug*

3/4/2012 2:27:53 PM

Which is again, completely wrong. You just still have your panties in a wad because of some tiny micro-feature that changed. If you actually read my posts instead of just looking at my username and auto-replying "fanboiiii", you'd know this.

I've made multiple posts in this thread about annoying and inefficient things in Win8 (actually in the PREVIOUS POST EVEN).

3/4/2012 2:34:07 PM

Quote :

"since windows 7 still can't manage to leave my folder views set to what i want instead of what microsoft thinks i need, i'll be excited if windows 8 manages to return to some basic XP functionality of doing as it's told"

Pretty sure this is fixed in 8.

3/4/2012 2:39:13 PM

Quote :

"merbig: number of clicks is not the measure of efficiency. Common and VERY stupid assumption to make. Sorry you had to type "CO" instead of "C" to get to control panel."

Well, it took me longer to do something than it previously took me.

Opening up "All Apps" from the classic desktop takes a longer amount of time than opening up "All Programs" did from the start menu, and functionally, they are the same fucking thing. So explain to me how MS made it more efficient?

Quote :

"How would you have known that? BECAUSE ITS HOW YOU GET TO THINGS IN WIN8? How did you know to do the same thing in Windows 7? Because you learned how to do it."

BUT IT'S NOT BETTER! God, are you just a fucking moron or just a fucking moron? Take your pick fucking moron.

To get to things easily I either have to pin it to the start screen (which I could do in Windows 7), pin it to the taskbar (which I can do in Windows 7) or search (which I can do in Windows 7). Did even read what I typed? What you're telling me to do to access control panel I can do exactly the same in Windows 7 (hit win key, type "c" "o" and hit enter). So what did MS improve on exactly?

What I can't do is access the control panel as easy WITHOUT searching. THEY REMOVED THAT FEATURE FROM THE OS! How did removing a feature of the OS make it better?

Quote :

"Keep in mind this is a CONSUMER PREVIEW. You are bitching about a pre-beta piece of software that was made available for you, for free, for you to give feedback on."

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought this thread was to discuss Windows 8, both the pros and cons. I didn't realize this was another Bill Gates circle jerk. Do you guys make the last person to cum eat the limp biscuit or do you just jump on in there and snatch it out of the loser's hands?

Quote :

"You just spent god knows how long typing a page of bullshit complaining about a 10 millisecond difference in operations that will be completely negated once you LEARN the new system."

I like this! Instead of addressing my questions and complaints about the UI, you try marginalizing the complaints by saying that the inconvenience and clumsiness of the OS isn't really a big deal because it adds "10 milliseconds." In the 50 hours it took your dumbass to type all of this, you could have addressed my questions directly and provided constructive feedback to questions like "how is it better over Windows 7?" But you didn't, probably because you can't.

You're telling me that I need to "learn the new system." Well, I have. And it sucks dick. Tell me what makes the "new system" better. What have a missed? Why is relying exclusively on "type to search," a feature in Windows Vista and Windows 7, better over having "type to search" and the quicker access to the list of "all programs?"

"type to search" is only quicker if you know the name of the program. Believe it or not, I do have a few programs installed that I use once in a blue moon that I can't quite remember the name of the program. If I do know the name of the program, then I use type to search on Windows 7. So again, how did Windows 8 make it better?

I even showed you where Windows 8 took me longer to access control panel utilities than it previously did in Windows 7 using "type to search."

Quote :

"You have just spewed one of the most pedantic, stupid, and waste of time complaints I have ever read. "

If this is true, then you have just spewed one of the most pedantic, stupid, and waste of time responses I have ever read. Not once did you show me where I was wrong, or explained to me how Windows 8 made it better over Windows 7. NOT ONE FUCKING TIME! No, you reacted like a 5th grader who had an 8th grader tell them that Pokemon sucks dick. Instead of forming a rational argument, you come back swinging like a child. What's sad, is I said I really want to like Windows 8, and I even asked for you guys to show me what's better about it over Windows 7. I'm still waiting.

Quote :

"But you picked the one that isn't even a problem with the system, more a problem with a luddite user. "

Yup, I'm "luddite." That's why I installed the Windows Vista beta when it was released (and the subsequent Release Candidate) and installed Vista as soon as I got it. I did the same with Windows 7. I have even gone so far as installing old Windows Longhorn builds (like the infamous build 4074 and 3718). I even purchased a HP Touchpad so I could enjoy Gingerbread on a tablet, and immediately jumped to Ice Cream Sandwich when it was released by the Cyanogenmod team for the TP. I have an iPhone, a MBP and I built a new desktop so I could install and use Mac OS X on it. I even installed the Mac OS X Lion Developer Preview on my MBP when it leaked onto the web. Yup. I sure as shit don't know how to use a computer and I'm certainly unwilling to change.

Or could it possibly be that I have adopted to Windows 8's changes, and I can't see where they're better.

Quote :

"Here's a video of how awful merbig's life will become in Windows 8. No mouse clicks and <1sec to open control. OH NOES!!!"

I can do that in Windows 7 just as easily! Again, what did MS DO BETTER?!?!?!?

Quote :

"Now for the mouse settings, merbig has a legit gripe."

How much did it hurt you to type that?

Quote :

"This would make mouse search just as fast as control panel (and equally as fast as Win7)"

So, if it's "equally as fast as Win7," why should someone move to Windows 8 if they simply changed something but didn't improve it?

This 2 UI 1 OS shit is just cumbersome. Many of these features they could have added to the classic desktop without needing Metro

[Edited on March 4, 2012 at 3:24 PM. Reason : .]

3/4/2012 3:18:59 PM

Quote :

"I have adopted to Windows 8's changes"

*adapted

3/4/2012 4:24:29 PM

Quote :

"I have an iPhone, a MBP and I built a new desktop so I could install and use Mac OS X on it. I even installed the Mac OS X Lion Developer Preview on my MBP when it leaked onto the web. "

Fanboyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

3/4/2012 4:50:42 PM

I also have Windows 7 installed on the desktop (which it is loaded into 75% of the time), a Samsung laptop that I use 75% of the time with Windows 7, Windows 7 installed on the MBP, my netbook which now has Windows 8 on it, but previously had Windows 7.

It is possible to like Mac, Windows and even Linux without being a fanboy.

3/4/2012 4:53:39 PM

I'll be happy to make a post about the improvements over windows 7. But there are already a ton of blog posts and articles about those.

Things like boot time, min hardware specs, overall system performance, file transfers, windows explorer, touch drivers, device support, system upgrades, recovery/restore/wipe/reinstalls, secure login options, account management, ie10. The list is pretty long with major improvements.

You are talking about a scenario that is infrequent, few users will ever perform, and is at worst a second longer to complete.

The "feature" I hate more than anything is tying the app bar in metro apps to right click with a mouse. If I'm using a mouse, I should be able to either get real on-object context menus with right click, or slam my cursor to the bottom of the screen and have the app bar pop up.

Also the photo/video metro apps are absolutely terrible compared to the still present windows photo viewer and windows media player. They are infuriating to even try to use.

I mostly like the start screen, but I really want better composition and layout options. Its fine to default organization in a 2-wide flowing manner, but I want more control over the size and absolute position of tiles. As well I should be able to set any image for the tile image, like app shortcuts work today.

The metro mail app is okay, but there's no gesture to pan left back to folders and accounts. Both are right click app bar choices only and they get really tedious really fast. Also there's no way to set each mail account to its own live tile that I could find.

The metro PC Settings app either needs a lot more work, or should just be removed. Damn near everything on it just redirects to the control panel, or is missing and I have to go to the control panel anyway. What is there can't be searched for.

The search results sections and behavior still need a lot of refinement.

The icons/shortcut live tiles for desktop apps look terrible and need some work, and also need notification hooks (outlook for example). IE's pin to tile feature needs to be opened to every app (metro and desktop) so I can pin websites to Chrome, and deep link to things in other apps.

SkyDrive metro app is really weak. It works but is a real pain to deal with. It needs to be integrated like dropbox, box.net and live mesh do, with a virtual folder and native windows explorer integration (and should be extensible so my dropbox and live mesh can use the same ribbon tab for sharing)

I can't believe Windows Live Essentials hasn't been updated and bundled with Win8, when they DID bundle a bunch of metro apps that do a really poor job of replacing Messenger, Photo Gallery, Movie Maker, and Live Sync.

Power options for laptops have been neutered, and several settings have been removed. Right now I'm getting about 30% worse battery life than with win7.

Touch works much better, but the wacom stylus doesn't. Right now it's an either or proposition, I can get the wacom working, but it reverts to the shitty win7 touch drivers.

Getting my switching graphics (ATI/Intel) working was a bitch. The .net 3.5 windows feature enabler just flat doesn't work, and you can't install it from the web or standalone installers. You have to install it through some buried command line switches, this was also broken in the developer preview.

Flash is fucking terrible. AWFUL. Not really MS's fault, but still a big part of the desktop and laptop web experience.

The preview requires a TON of disk space, and they still haven't done anything to fix/stem/cleanup the WinSxS all cache in x64. It bloats really fast.

I wish there was an optional way to pin the metro running apps list to the side of the screen. And that this lost showed love tiles instead of screen previews. The previews are worthless.

There's some constructive feedback for you.

3/4/2012 6:44:57 PM

yeah. basically metro adds a bunch of headache to a mouse environment for no benefit.

no one here is gonna argue that the kernel improvements or winrt are bad cause thats the kind of stuff we expect from new windows.

what we dont want is a UI not designed for the platform we're using it on.

remember how i said i had a bug where the charm bar didnt show up? turns out you have to go to the top or bottom corner on the right side of the screen. a critical UI feature should not rely on accidental discovery.

3/4/2012 8:56:29 PM

just fyi, if you have amd/ati graphics they have uploaded some windows 8 specific drivers

3/4/2012 10:06:07 PM

^Those are really intended only for desktop cards. They fubared my mobile setup.

Quote :

"a critical UI feature should not rely on accidental discovery."

Damn near all the features of Windows have relied on accidental discovery since... well forever. Just happens that there haven't been any major changes to the UI patterns in almost 20 years.

That said, I agree there are a LOT of areas where consistency between touch and mouse just don't make any sense, and there should be separate/different patterns and affordances for mouse interaction.

3/4/2012 10:49:23 PM

they worked fine for me but they are beta drivers for a reason

3/4/2012 11:22:50 PM

Quote :

"Damn near all the features of Windows have relied on accidental discovery since... well forever"

not critical features. when they introduced the start menu: firstly its called start. second its v. visibile. 3rd there was a goddamn animated arrow that pointed to it that said something like "click here to get started". and 4th they put a button with the same logo as the start button on the keyboard.

also the charm bar is just another wierd ass thing thats been moved from the old start menu into a mouse unfriendly place. the only new thing is the sharing stuff which i'd rather see as additions to stuff like the windows photo viewer or explorer

3/5/2012 12:19:58 AM

hey noen, heres a somewhat related question that has bugged me forever.

Why are the visual studio redistributables, which are microsoft products that could only be redistributed on windows, not part of the OS and/or delivered by windows update?

[Edited on March 5, 2012 at 4:16 PM. Reason : a]

3/5/2012 4:15:57 PM

^For Visual Studio 11, and on Windows 8, they are (finally)

3/5/2012 4:22:42 PM

Now that x86 is dead, Windows can die too.

3/5/2012 4:54:43 PM

^huh?

3/5/2012 4:59:15 PM

I thought this was pretty good: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4boTbv9_nU

3/8/2012 1:45:58 PM

*shrug* nothing new

i set up a new laptop for somebody yesterday (moving from winxp to win7) and i was trying to explain to her that one difference in win7 is you can use the search prompt in the start menu instead of browsing through the All Programs menu

she'd never even used All Programs before. if there wasn't a shortcut on her desktop for an application, she didn't know how to get to it.

3/8/2012 1:59:53 PM

^^Learnability vs. Discoverability.

His son is a fucking idiot. All it takes is ONE TIME telling a person to use the windows key, or click in the bottom left corner. And he will remember it forever.

It's just fucking stupid to expect a non-technical person using a PREVIEW, that obviously has no affordances built in yet, no introductory information built in yet, to just "figure it out".

You could do the exact same bullshit for a manual transmission car, for a person who has only driven an automatic. It must be shitty and worthless because you can't figure it out without some instruction.

3/8/2012 2:14:02 PM

I'm pretty sure if you're smart enough to get an iso file (W8 CP) and burn it, or make a bootable usb drive, you can find the start button. Why would anyone install a preview onto a novice user's computer anyways?

3/8/2012 2:41:01 PM

For Comparison's sake

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0FVm_H_D18

3/8/2012 3:24:00 PM

works for the consumer and developer preview (i just tried)

http://www.stardock.com/products/start8/

[Edited on March 8, 2012 at 4:40 PM. Reason : adds start button]

3/8/2012 4:40:30 PM

thats wayyyyy better. i can imagine some stuff is still goofy but its gigantic improvement

3/8/2012 7:13:55 PM

Noen has a great point, and IMO Microsoft will put an option into the OOBE to "Take a tour of Windows 8" or something similar, much like the tutorials that came with XP, 95, and 3.1

3/8/2012 8:38:09 PM

^If they don't, it WILL be the biggest trainwreck ever.

3/8/2012 9:06:08 PM

FUCK

THE ONLY THING I WANT TO DO IS GET TO MY MOUSE SETTINGS

WHERE THE FUCK ARE THE MOUSE SETTINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

3/8/2012 10:01:20 PM

I personally am a PC guy, but I wonder if apple people drift into this thread to get laughs about the dumbass windows rednecks.

3/8/2012 10:02:12 PM

Quote :

"I personally am a PC guy, but I wonder if apple people drift into this thread to get laughs about the dumbass windows rednecks."

Considering how much they hated Lion when it came out, I doubt they would.

3/9/2012 12:26:52 AM

^^^that information has been posted in this thread.

[Edited on March 9, 2012 at 8:50 AM. Reason : ]

3/9/2012 8:50:35 AM

that's the joke

3/9/2012 11:44:37 AM

ah...I see....

3/9/2012 3:32:52 PM

Quote :

"I personally am a PC guy, but I wonder if apple people drift into this thread to get laughs about the dumbass windows rednecks. "

....

3/12/2012 10:57:46 AM

Quote :

"Learnability vs. Discoverability"

The whole point of GUI's is to eliminate the need for learnability...you no longer have to remember a lot of bullshit command line arguments or look up the magic key to press. It should all be laid out on the screen, so that even the layman can master the basic functionality without ever consulting a manual or help file. There's nothing wrong with keyboard shortcuts, and I find their absence in many linux distros frustrating, but requiring their knowledge is completely at odds with the concept of casual computing.

There's still time to repair this particular clusterfuck, but the corporate culture of microsoft won't allow it. Fortunately, the market has never had more sources of good competition.

Quote :

"His son is a fucking idiot"

That's the way to talk about your customers, Mr. G.

[Edited on March 15, 2012 at 12:22 PM. Reason : .]

3/15/2012 12:16:19 PM

Quote :

"That's the way to talk about your customers, Mr. G."

Chris Pirello isn't exactly a Microsoft customer. He's a pretty vocal "OSS is bettar than everything else" personality. He was fairly enjoyable to watch during his time on TechTV back in the day, but has fallen quite a ways since then.

Quote :

"The whole point of GUI's is to eliminate the need for learnability...you no longer have to remember a lot of bullshit command line arguments or look up the magic key to press. It should all be laid out on the screen, so that even the layman can master the basic functionality without ever consulting a manual or help file. There's nothing wrong with keyboard shortcuts, and I find their absence in many linux distros frustrating, but requiring their knowledge is completely at odds with the concept of casual computing. "

Whatever ignorant hole you pulled this out of, you need to put it back in. A command line interface is still a GUI.

Some of the most successful commercial applications (3D Studio Max, Maya, AutoCad, SolidWorks, SAS, Oracle, Visual Studio, Photoshop, Final Cut Pro, among hundreds of others) are based on a premise of Learnability.

In fact I would argue that the MAJORITY of productivity tools consciously choose to require a period of learning in order to deliver a higher productive maximum.

You can argue whether CONSUMER applications (and operation systems) should use the same metaphor (requiring learning to increase overall productivity) and you can argue that Win8 doesn't actually achieve the goal of increasing productivity (or maybe that it does, but at the cost of an enjoyable experience).

But you are a fool to argue that ANY graphical interface that requires learning or training is a failure, because 20+ years of history completely disprove your statement.

3/15/2012 6:57:59 PM

I've touched a nerve, I see. It's okay, all companies ruin their flagship eventually.

3/15/2012 9:14:04 PM

Quote :

"Whatever ignorant hole you pulled this out of, you need to put it back in. A command line interface is still a GUI. "

Wat?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphical_user_interface

Quote :

"In computing, a graphical user interface (GUI, commonly pronounced gooey[1]) is a type of user interface that allows users to interact with electronic devices with images rather than text commands."

You can't just redefine terms when it suites your needs.

I don't think smc is saying that it's a failure, but rather unintuitive.

3/15/2012 9:21:40 PM

^Yes you can argue semantics whether a CUI is wholly separate from a GUI, or just a subclass. But even a CUI is still IMAGES of text on a screen. Versus punch cards, or any other strictly non-display interface. You are right, it doesn't really matter either way in the context of the stupidity on SMC's part.

Quote :

"It's okay, all companies ruin their flagship eventually."

Like I said, you can argue whether learnability is appropriate for a consumer product, or whether it's executed well (and I think we can all agree Win8 is still going through a large number of growing pains).

Quote :

"I don't think smc is saying that it's a failure, but rather unintuitive."

There are very few elements of modern day applications, operating systems, or GUI's that are ACTUALLY intuitive. We all use that word to actually mean that UI's stick to established, learned interaction metaphors that haven't changed in 20 years.

At some point in your life we all LEARNED that clicking a button twice has significance, that blue colored and underlined text has a significance, that text with a box around it represents an actionable thing called a button... etc etc etc. None of that is actually intuitive, they are all patterns and interactions we learned at a very early age.

3/15/2012 10:39:44 PM

lets argue that multi-touch capability is a learned concept. it's not blatantly there on the screen, yet you probably won't buy a smartphone without it these days and everybody (I use the term "everybody" loosely) knows how to use it. you can't put every feature on the screen and every OS (at least every non-mobile OS) has shortcut keys. why would you even buy a computer without wanting to learn anything? it's like we've resorted to dumbing down people's ability to think just so everything they ever knew or was famiiliar with can't change for the better. we've resorted to asking computers "why won't you think for me???".

you can't write a perfect OS that will please everybody...especially a full-fledged computing OS. no start button = more screen real estate..deal with it. you learned it, now get used to it.

3/16/2012 10:19:56 AM

We've got a fanboy here.

Or perhaps just another Microsoft employee.

3/16/2012 2:39:57 PM

^ (Did you miss my giant post full of criticism for Win8?)

We've got a deflecting backpedaler here.

[Edited on March 16, 2012 at 4:41 PM. Reason : Deflect and backpedal, deflect and backpedal]

3/16/2012 4:40:00 PM

Quote :

"^Yes you can argue semantics whether a CUI is wholly separate from a GUI, or just a subclass. But even a CUI is still IMAGES of text on a screen. V"

Jesus fucking Christ... It's not about how the objects on screen are rendered it's about how the human using the computer conceptualizes the tasks. Next you'll say that JavaScript or Python are really just assembly code because at the end of the day the machine code is being executed by the interpreter...

The whole way you think about the interaction is different. You're looking at the wrong side of the interaction.

3/16/2012 6:13:20 PM