No ones first amendment right is more important than another persons right to be comfortable. Any argument supporting that tunnel supports bigotry. You support bigotry. You're a bigot.

/thread

^ speaking the truth. All I want to know is who is saying what. You have a right to express yourself. So why hide behind a tunnel?

This is why I keep my circle of non-colored friends to a minimum. As a minority on campus you never know which white person is the racist one.

7/14/2011 12:51:46 AM

I really can't tell if this thread is an elaborate troll or something else.

Either way it has aids.

7/14/2011 12:54:01 AM

This isn't really a first amendment issue. That's a more minor aspect of this...

The university shouldn't have the word "nigger" on their marketing materials is what it boils down to, and it's massive stupidity on someone's part to let this slip through.

i don't think the tunnel should be closed, but i have no problem with the university being proactive in making the tunnel be more about positive free expression than negative.

[Edited on July 14, 2011 at 12:55 AM. Reason : ]

7/14/2011 12:54:41 AM

nope it should be there

The university has shown in the last few years that it supports racism. Now all incoming freshmen and prospective students know it.

7/14/2011 12:56:14 AM

I don't think the university supports racism. Racists have just been very effective over the past century to conflate hatred with free speech, and some people are just gullible enough to accept this.

7/14/2011 12:58:47 AM

Quote :

"You're imagining the word exists in a vacuum. It doesn't. It has past history, current events, meaningful effects, and a whole atmosphere and eco system around it, and by providing a safe harbor, you help nurture this eco system."

Wrong. Censoring racism does not make racism disappear. When you censor someone's ability to express their opinion, that opinion strengthens. How would you feel if someone told you you couldn't speak out against racism? Would you say "welp, that's that I guess", or would you be really fucking pissed off and find other outlets? Remind me, how did prohibition work out?

The only way to curb racism is to let them speak their minds, then rebut them. The message will never get through to a lot of thick-skulled individuals, but people do change.

Quote :

"IOW, you say it's just "stupid people" but who are these stupid people? Are they going to be my kids' teachers? My boss? My neighbor? "

Let me rephrase "stupid people" to "stupid opinions".

Quote :

"They are going to be stupid all their life, and your solution is to just let them stupid... but when you aren't the target of their stupidity, that's easy to say."

No, they aren't necessarily going to hold stupid opinions their whole lives. Not every bigot remains a bigot. Have you heard of Johnny Lee Clary? He was once the leader of the KKK, but through open interaction with strong, intelligent people, he went on to preach against racism and hate crimes.

[Edited on July 14, 2011 at 1:07 AM. Reason : .]

7/14/2011 1:03:04 AM

Quote :

"How would you feel if someone told you you couldn't speak out against racism? Would you say "welp, that's that I guess", or would you be really fucking pissed off and find other outlets? Remind me, how did prohibition work out?"

Racists generally know they're wrong. If they feel that society is against them, they definitely watch their back more.

How do you think racism has been reduced over the past few decades? It hasn't been just by people growing a "thicker skin" it has been by actively promoting the idea that racism is wrong through various means, including censorship.

The fact of the matter is that censorship does work, and was worked for thousands of years to promote certain ideas over others.

This is actually why the 1st amendment exists, we were one of the first governments to allow political dissent (the main issue of what the 1st amendment deals with-- not calling people niggers).

7/14/2011 1:06:28 AM

There was a Swastika above the word as well and it looks like it said "White Power." I must admit as much as I don't really care what goes on the free expression tunnel, having Neo Nazi symbols and propaganda is disgusting and I could certainly understand how it could threaten a minority person who was walking through the tunnel. This is a college setting, it is one thing to put racial slurs on a wall in some sort of twisted comedic jest, it's another thing to put them on there to attempt to make the targeted group feel threatened or insecure. Seeing as I'm white I can't feel how threatening this would be since, if someone wrote honky and had black power they don't really have the organizational background to support it as threatening, but seeing as groups like Valkryie (or w/e those lunies are called) and the Klan exist, and they are somewhat militant I could see how writing this sort of slop on the free expression tunnel could be threatening.

Not to mention lets consider a black person was walking through while these fools were writing this, who knows what could happen. Thus the presence of the malicious group is established by their hate speech on the free expression tunnel. In summary it's one thing to write a racial slur and mean one thing, it's another to attempt to disparage that racial group with it.

7/14/2011 1:08:33 AM

Quote :

"Racists generally know they're wrong."

What? Wrong in what sense? Ask any racist and they will tell you that their view is the correct one.

Quote :

"it has been by actively promoting the idea that racism is wrong through various means, including censorship."

I'd like to see you prove that censorship has had any positive effect.

7/14/2011 1:12:18 AM

Quote :

"I'd like to see you prove that censorship has had any positive effect. "

The effect depends on what's being censored.

I don't see how this isn't self evident though... you seriously need proof of this?

7/14/2011 1:13:39 AM

Quote :

"The effect depends on what's being censored."

Absolutely, and bigotry is, and always has been ingrained in human culture. It's not an idea you can make disappear over time, unless we somehow become a completely homogeneous society.

Quote :

"I don't see how this isn't self evident though... you seriously need proof of this?"

It's not self evident. Censorship strengthens convictions.

I like what this guy says.

"Those who fight for hate-speech regulations, he believes, stress the "terror" of the word. This encourages racist abusers and weakens black students by spreading the idea that they should feel grievously wounded by remarks that earlier blacks might have simply shrugged off."

7/14/2011 1:27:13 AM

7/14/2011 1:29:32 AM

Quote :

""Those who fight for hate-speech regulations, he believes, stress the "terror" of the word. This encourages racist abusers and weakens black students by spreading the idea that they should feel grievously wounded by remarks that earlier blacks might have simply shrugged off.""

I believe that the people who use the word "sometimes" (this is historically evident) are the ones who perpetrate the terror. Hate speech regulators aren't trying to get something outlawed because it frightens them, they are trying to make a statement to the public that these people writing these things is not appropriate and should not be accepted as such. Creating as issue of it does not add to the terror of a word. Acts of violence/racism add to the terror of a word.

To be honest though I think whoever you quoted is right, those who try to regulate hate speech do stress terror, but they do so indirectly. It is a ramification of the fact that when regulation is put forth or suggested those who commit the hate speech are more enraged than before at the minority, and thus add to the terror.

Now suggesting that nothing is done when racism brings forth it's head is like saying to those groups, this is acceptable but frowned upon behavior. This, I would think, would add to the numbers of racists, because when they see these things written, they will feel a connection with a group of others who have similar ideals.

So instead of enraging those causing the immediate problem, but eventually solving the issue, non-action would seem to allow the problem to fester and grow IMHO.

7/14/2011 1:36:30 AM

Quote :

"Now suggesting that nothing is done when racism brings forth it's head is like saying to those groups, this is acceptable but frowned upon behavior. This, I would think, would add to the numbers of racists, because when they see these things written, they will feel a connection with a group of others who have similar ideals."

Well no, it wouldn't add to the numbers of racists. No one sees the word "Nigger" on the wall and all of a sudden decides they hate black people. Do you mean it would encourage racists to be more open with their views? It might, but it can also encourage level-headed people to be more vocal against the problem. I also think (in fact, I'm quite sure) that declaring a view "off limits" encourages the holders of that view far, far more.

Quote :

"So instead of enraging those causing the immediate problem, but eventually solving the issue, non-action would seem to allow the problem to fester and grow IMHO."

But I'm not suggesting non-action, I'm suggesting the opposite--free and open discussion. How can you say that the issue will eventually be solved? I have yet to see any proof or reasonable sequence of events as to how racism can be conquered through censorship.

[Edited on July 14, 2011 at 1:46 AM. Reason : .]

7/14/2011 1:43:56 AM

Quote :

"But I'm not suggesting non-action, I'm suggesting the opposite--free and open discussion"

Half the time you suggest this. The other half you suggest that:

Quote :

"The solution is to grow thicker skin and realize there will always be ignorant assholes."

or

Quote :

"they would be better off if they accepted the fact that there are racists, there always have been racists, there will always be racists, and it's a waste of time and energy to feel personally affected by every dumbass statement that comes out of their mouths."

So which is it? You're all over the place. Should people just grow thicker skin? Accept that people are racist? How can they have free and open discussion if they are simultaneously expected to just grin and bear it? The expectation that those targeted should be burdened with turning the other cheek is exactly what I was referring to when I said that the NC State student body has a weird culture of tolerating hate speech rather than confronting it.

I'll repeat that I am not for censorship, so I'll save you the effort of addressing that again. I just want to re-iterate that you don't get anywhere by being passive aggressive. If someone sees something that upsets them, it's their right to sound off on it, and they shouldn't be labled as mincey little faggots who get upset at the slightest thing.

[Edited on July 14, 2011 at 1:59 AM. Reason : ]

7/14/2011 1:48:22 AM

How is asking people to “grow thick skin” not suggesting non-action?

7/14/2011 1:49:12 AM

Quote :

"So which is it? You're all over the place. Should people just grow thicker skin? Accept that people are racist? How can they have free and open discussion if they are simultaneously expected to just grin and bear it?"

It's not one or the other, it's both. Grow thicker skin and allow people to have their say, but fight back in a way that's effective. One method is to respond to hatred with kindness. It's always unexpected, and it can change minds. See: Johnny Lee Clary (worth watching if you haven't seen it)

Quote :

"If someone sees something that upsets them, it's their right to sound off on it, and they shouldn't be labled as mincey little faggots who get upset at the slightest thing."

I'm absolutely not saying people shouldn't be upset and vocal about racism. They should be upset that racism and hatefulness exists, but they shouldn't let it make them feel like less of a person.

[Edited on July 14, 2011 at 2:02 AM. Reason : .]

7/14/2011 1:57:42 AM

Quote :

"They should be upset that racism and hatefulness exists, but they shouldn't let it make them feel like less of a person."

That's pretty empty advice.

So, don't cry over spilled milk. But at the same time, speak up so that people don't continue to spill milk.



If it didn't upset people, then there would be no reason to try and curb the behavior.


Anyway, I've exhausted the amount of fuck I can give to this topic.



[Edited on July 14, 2011 at 2:17 AM. Reason : and I can't be bothered to give half a shit about a reformed klansman]

7/14/2011 2:11:32 AM

Quote :

"That's pretty empty advice. So, don't cry over spilled milk. But at the same time, speak up so that people don't spill milk.."

Asking people to practice mindfulness is not empty advice. Your spilled milk analogy is exactly correct.

I'm not even sure what you're arguing against anymore. Do you think people should allow themselves to be personally hurt by bigotry?

Quote :

"and I can't be bothered to give half a shit about a reformed klansman"

That's a shame, because it's a great story of how capable people are of change. I guess anyone with a hateful past deserves our disdain, no matter how much good they do.

[Edited on July 14, 2011 at 2:20 AM. Reason : .]

7/14/2011 2:17:54 AM

No, I'm just saying that if people weren't offended by what they saw, they would have no reason to speak up against the behavior to begin with. One necessarily follows the other.

7/14/2011 2:20:22 AM

Quote :

"No, I'm just saying that if people weren't offended by what they saw, they would have no reason to speak up against the behavior to begin with. One necessarily follows the other."

Again, I'm not asking people to not take offense. As I said earlier, they should be upset that racism and hatefulness exists, but they shouldn't let it make them feel like less of a person. Mindfulness.

[Edited on July 14, 2011 at 2:24 AM. Reason : .]

7/14/2011 2:24:10 AM

Quote :

"Stupid = White people"

racism straight from the racist's mouth.

7/14/2011 8:30:09 AM

You need to read this thread again. White people are stupid. Specifically state students. Its a fact. Its 2011 and the answer to racism from you idiots is its free speech and grow thicker skin.

I quit, yall will never understand that no one should have to tolerate this.

7/14/2011 9:05:45 AM

Quote :

"White people are stupid."

racism straight from the racist's mouth.

7/14/2011 9:07:53 AM

One thing Hitler got right was killing whiteys.

7/14/2011 9:22:49 AM

being racist doesn't help your cause against racism.

7/14/2011 9:24:14 AM

You shut your mouth

You thin lip, greasy head, nigger

7/14/2011 9:25:37 AM

no thanks

7/14/2011 9:26:26 AM

no both black people are white people are "stupid" about this because we can't empathize.


no white person can seriously understand how it feels to be called that because well, there isn't much of a word that is equivalent to it for us white folk (cunt......maybe? )

black people cannot understand that the white people who aren't really racist -that word is just another word for them-not a tool

the only people who i believe somewhat get this are the racists, THATS WHY THEY USE IT.


neither of us will EVER get it.






on a more important note:













http://jezebel.com/5820860/90s-nickelodeon-nostalgia-returning-to-your-television-on-monday

[Edited on July 14, 2011 at 9:33 AM. Reason : xcxcx]

7/14/2011 9:26:58 AM

I bet you're the type to bitch if the tunnel is painted unc blue.

YOU PEOPLE ARE FUCKING IDIOTS!

7/14/2011 9:27:54 AM

are you referring to me?

7/14/2011 9:29:21 AM

True story.

I never used cunt or knew it was bad till I got to NCSU.

^ No

[Edited on July 14, 2011 at 9:30 AM. Reason : .]

7/14/2011 9:29:53 AM

lol. i was about to be like WHHHAAAAAA???? i don't care about that hahaha

7/14/2011 9:30:36 AM

7/14/2011 9:31:20 AM

I made serious posts ITT. And ofc now I realize it was a giant troll.

7/14/2011 9:36:24 AM

I think everyone can agree that the print editor was a moron for not vetting the photographs more closely. Hell, I did high school yearbook and we basically had to analyze every photo with a microscope before entering it. NCSU dropped the ball on this.

Now what I don't understand is why people, rather than pissing and moaning from their computer chair about this incident, don't go into the Free Expression Tunnel and paint something to counter the idiots who paint this crap in the first place. Go in there and paint a mural with MLK Jr quotes, or of people chilling in a park together, or whatever you want. The Free Expression Tunnel belongs to all us taxpayers and you are just as welcome to go in there and paint whatever your heart desires. I remember one year my friends and I went in there and painted a large section of the wall neon green just because we wanted to see how awful a neon green wall would look in person

7/14/2011 9:38:54 AM

all I know is that as long as NCSU continues to get this type of negative publicity, I will continue NOT to donate to my alma mater. Sucks for NCSU....my company matches my donation to the college of my choice

7/14/2011 9:51:45 AM

Quote :

"i cant think of any word that could possibly offend me enough to even want to fight someone"

this

Quote :

" all I know is that as long as NCSU continues to get this type of negative publicity, I will continue NOT to donate to my alma mater. Sucks for NCSU....my company matches my donation to the college of my choice "

use whatever excuse you need to justify that you don't donate back...i, for one, am perfectly comfortable saying i just don't care enough to give them any more of my money than i already have through tuition

[Edited on July 14, 2011 at 9:58 AM. Reason : .]

7/14/2011 9:56:04 AM

The only people that should donate back are the athletes since they are treated like kings at D1 schools.

7/14/2011 1:10:25 PM

Quote :

"no both black people are white people are "stupid" about this because we can't empathize. no white person can seriously understand how it feels to be called that because well, there isn't much of a word that is equivalent to it for us white folk (cunt......maybe? ) black people cannot understand that the white people who aren't really racist -that word is just another word for them-not a tool the only people who i believe somewhat get this are the racists, THATS WHY THEY USE IT. neither of us will EVER get it. "

Joie no offense, but this is a cop-out. You post stuff like this when any debate is going on. "Well both sides have merit" or "Neither side knows what they're talking about. It's true that both sides of this discussion have some valid points. By talking about it, we can come to at least a partial understanding and maybe change some opinions.

7/14/2011 1:13:11 PM

^ you are 100% right

i do post stuff like that in most debates.

because, well, i don't really have a strong opinion one way or the other.


i have a pretty pliable mind.
change it.

and also...good luck on changing peoples opinions who already have their mind made up.



[Edited on July 14, 2011 at 1:15 PM. Reason : no offense taken. my pacifism annoys cod sometimes too. ]

7/14/2011 1:14:20 PM

^
I try to keep my mind pliable as well, but I have pretty strong opinions about a lot of subjects (censorship is one of them).

7/14/2011 1:15:52 PM

Quote :

"By talking about it, we can come to at least a partial understanding and maybe change some opinions."

The ones doing it aren't going to talk/debate about it. As long as it gets a rise from someone, they're going to be dumb enough to continue doing it.

7/14/2011 1:16:41 PM

I will now group racism with politics and religion. Things you should not bother to argue about.

7/14/2011 1:17:17 PM

and there is nothing wrong with having strong opinions.....

but as much strong of an opinion you have on censorship, someone else is the complete opposite of you.
and feels just as strongly.

most people who argue a point are not gonna be swayed.

im admitting that i have no strong stance on this.


i feel like my *type* are the ones you should be trying to win over.
not the ones you argue against.

Quote :

"The ones doing it aren't going to talk/debate about it. As long as it gets a rise from someone, they're going to be dumb enough to continue doing it."

solid.





[Edited on July 14, 2011 at 1:19 PM. Reason : damn i suck at typing ]

7/14/2011 1:17:59 PM

Shut the tunnel and NCSU doesn't get bad press and look like a bunch of racist rednecks. Keep tunnel open and the cycle will continue. I can assure you something racist will make the news before the fall semester is over. If this is the kind of press you want your alma mater to have continue to support this form of free speech.

7/14/2011 1:20:44 PM

Quote :

"Stupid = White people"

Quote :

"Give them enough rope to hang themselves by."

Quote :

"One thing Hitler got right was killing whiteys."

Quote :

"You thin lip, greasy head, nigger"

That Hitler shit was pretty incendiary too. I mean the Hitler shit doesn't even offend most white people. But that's pretty f%^&ed up bud, saying that Hitler killing 11 million, Jews, gypsys, homosexuals, and a variety of other groups was something he got right.

[Edited on July 14, 2011 at 1:28 PM. Reason : ]

7/14/2011 1:21:11 PM

snd ftr:


i do have a semi strong opinion on what the thread is originally about.....


but i refuse to argue it because i know how i feel.

rabbling on and on with people who disagree with me will only make my opinion stronger.
(which is hell no don't distribute that shit with that on it).



my post before was just towards the word in general




[Edited on July 14, 2011 at 1:25 PM. Reason : sdfdfdfd]

7/14/2011 1:21:50 PM

Quote :

"^and their is nothing wrong with that but as much strong of an opinion you have on censorship, someone else is the complete opposite of you. and feels just as strongly. most people who argue a point are not gonna be swayed."

I've swayed people, and have been swayed myself. I'm sure there are opinions I hold that are incorrect, but discussion can't be forwarded without the back-and-forth of debate. One-sided issues don't change.

Quote :

"i feel like my *type* are the ones you should be trying to win over. not the ones you argue against."

True. That's part of the reason I argue on here. Most people are unwilling to change their opinions, especially in TSB, but there are bystanders who might be reading, and I want my opinions to be heard by them.

7/14/2011 1:24:36 PM

[Edited on July 14, 2011 at 1:30 PM. Reason : J]

7/14/2011 1:24:44 PM