Quote :

" Biden smiled laughed more, and was more willing to interrupt than Ryan was, resulting in a better worse overall public perception."

FIFY

10/12/2012 10:14:51 AM

American Catholics are a lot different than rest-of-the-world Catholics

10/12/2012 10:21:40 AM

Let me clarify: In America, the most reasonable religious groups are the Jews and Catholics.

10/12/2012 10:24:36 AM

New England Sunday Catholics, without doing any research except growing up as one, probably vote heavier Dem than anything. Of course the Republicans up there tend to be far more moderate as well, much like the pre-2007 incarnation of Romney.

10/12/2012 10:24:49 AM

Sorry for my outrageous blanket statement about the Catholics. It was completely inaccurate and baseless. I personally find the Catholics to be a very fascinating group to watch because they are very active politically. Debating them is often pointless though.

I'm an ex Catholic.

10/12/2012 10:45:39 AM

WASHINGTON — Anyone who paid attention to a hearing in Congress this week knew that the administration had been implored to beef up security at the U.S. Consulate in Libya before the deadly terrorist attack there. But in the vice presidential debate Thursday night, Joe Biden seemed unaware.

"We weren't told they wanted more security there," the vice president asserted flatly. During a night in which Biden and Republican rival Paul Ryan both drifted from the facts on a range of domestic and foreign issues, that was a standout.

A look at some of their claims:

BIDEN: "Well, we weren't told they wanted more security there. We did not know they wanted more security again. And by the way, at the time we were told exactly — we said exactly what the intelligence community told us that they knew. That was the assessment. And as the intelligence community changed their view, we made it clear they changed their view."

RYAN: "There were requests for more security."

THE FACTS: Ryan is right, judging by testimony from Obama administration officials at the hearing a day earlier.

Charlene R. Lamb, a deputy assistant secretary for diplomatic security, told lawmakers she refused requests for more security in Benghazi, saying the department wanted to train Libyans to protect the consulate. "Yes, sir, I said personally I would not support it," she said.

Eric Nordstrom, who was the top security official in Libya earlier this year, testified he was criticized for seeking more security. He said conversations he had with people in Washington led him to believe that it was "abundantly clear we were not going to get resources until the aftermath of an incident. How thin does the ice have to get before someone falls through?"

He said his exasperation reached a point where he told a colleague that "for me the Taliban is on the inside of the building."

[Edited on October 12, 2012 at 11:17 AM. Reason : .]

10/12/2012 10:49:42 AM

So do you want me to post JUST the paragraphs that deal with Ryan's fibs or the link that goes over both sides?

10/12/2012 10:58:08 AM

That one was the most blatant, and something the VP should and would have known if he wasn't an incompetent tool. Feel free to post the rest of the article.

ETA: Here's the rest

RYAN: "Look at just the $90 billion in stimulus the vice president was in charge of overseeing — this $90 billion in green pork to campaign contributors and special interest groups."

THE FACTS: Dismissing an entire package of energy stimulus grants and loans as "green pork" ignores the help that was given to people to make their homes more energy efficient, grants to public entities constructing high speed rail lines and tax credits to manufacturers to install equipment fostering cleaner energy.

To be sure, there were notable failed investments, such as $528 million to the politically connected and now-bankrupt solar power company Solyndra. But Ryan's claim made it sound like every penny went down the drain.

More broadly, economists are nearly universal in saying Obama's $800 billion-plus stimulus passed in early 2009 helped create both public-sector and private-sector jobs, even if they fell short of what sponsors had hoped. Douglas Elmendorf, director of the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, estimated the stimulus saved or created more than 3 million jobs.

BIDEN: "We went out and rescued General Motors."

THE FACTS: Actually, the auto bailout of General Motors and Chrysler began under President George W. Bush. The Obama administration continued and expanded it.

RYAN: "And then they put this new Obamacare board in charge of cutting Medicare each and every year in ways that will lead to denied care for current seniors. This board, by the way, it's 15 people, the president's supposed to appoint them next year. And not one of them even has to have medical training."

THE FACTS: Ryan is referring to the Independent Payment Advisory Board, created under President Barack Obama's health care overhaul law. It has the power to force cuts in Medicare payments to service providers if costs rise above certain levels and Congress fails to act. But it doesn't look like the board will be cutting Medicare "each and every year," as Ryan asserts. Medicare costs are currently rising modestly and the government's own experts project the board's intervention will not be needed until 2018 and 2019 at the earliest — after Obama leaves office if re-elected to a second term.

BIDEN, when asked who would pay more taxes in Obama's second term: "People making a million dollars or more."

THE FACTS: Obama's proposed tax increase reaches farther down the income ladder than millionaires. He wants to roll back Bush-era tax cuts for individuals making over $200,000 and couples making more than $250,000.

RYAN: "We cannot allow Iran to gain a nuclear weapons capability. Now, let's take a look at where we've gone — come from. When Barack Obama was elected, they had enough fissile material — nuclear material — to make one bomb. Now they have enough for five. They're racing toward a nuclear weapon. They're four years closer toward a nuclear weapons capability."

THE FACTS: Ryan's claim is misleading. Iran isn't believed to have produced any of the highly enriched uranium needed to produce even one nuclear weapon, let alone five. That point isn't even disputed by Israel, whose Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu implored the world at the United Nations last month to create a "red line" at enrichment above 20 percent. Iran would have to enrich uranium at much higher levels to produce a weapon. There is intelligence suggesting that Iran has worked on weapon designs, but not that it has developed a delivery system for any potential nuclear warhead.

BIDEN: "What we did is, we saved $716 billion and put it back, applied it to Medicare."

THE FACTS: Contrary to Biden's assertion, not all the money cut from Medicare is going back into the program in some other way. The administration is cutting $716 billion over 10 years in Medicare payments to providers and using some of the money to improve benefits under the program. But most of the money is being used to expand health care coverage outside of Medicare.

RYAN: "What troubles me more is how this administration has handled all of these issues. Look at what they're doing through Obamacare with respect to assaulting the religious liberties of this country. They're infringing upon our first freedom, the freedom of religion, by infringing on Catholic charities, Catholic churches, Catholic hospitals."

THE FACTS: The requirement under the health care law that most employers cover birth control free of charge to female employees does not apply to churches, houses of worship, or other institutions directly involved in propagating a religious faith. It does apply to church-affiliated institutions such as hospitals and charities that serve the general public.

BIDEN: "Romney said 'No, let Detroit go bankrupt.'"

THE FACTS: GOP presidential candidate Mitt Romney has gotten endless grief through the campaign for the headline put on his November 2008 opinion essay that he wrote for The New York Times. But his point was never that he wanted the auto industry to go down the tubes.

Romney opposed using government money to bail out Chrysler and General Motors, instead favoring privately financed bankruptcy restructuring. His prescription seemed improbable. Automakers were hemorrhaging cash and the banking system was in crisis, so private money wasn't available. Without the government money, it's likely both companies would have gone out of business. Romney did propose government-guaranteed private loans for both companies after bankruptcy.

RYAN: "We should have spoken out right away when the green revolution was up and starting, when the mullahs in Iran were attacking their people. We should not have called Bashar Assad a reformer when he was turning his Russian-provided guns on his own people.

THE FACTS: Neither President Barack Obama nor anyone else in his administration ever considered the Syrian leader a "reformer." The oft-repeated charge stems from an interview Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton gave in March 2011 noting that "many of the members of Congress of both parties who have gone to Syria in recent months have said they believe he's a reformer." She did not endorse that view. The comment was widely perceived to be a knock at senators such as John Kerry of Massachusetts who maintained cordial relations with Assad in the months leading up to his crackdown on protesters.

RYAN: "This one tax would actually tax about 53 percent of small-business income."

BIDEN: "Ninety-seven percent of the small businesses in America pay less — make less than $250,000."

THE FACTS: Both are correct, but incomplete, when sizing up the effect on small business of raising taxes for individuals making more than $200,000 and married couples making more than $250,000, as Obama wants to do. Republicans say that would hit small-business owners who report business income on their individual income tax; Democrats say the overwhelming majority of small businesses would not be affected.

According to a 2010 report by the Joint Committee on Taxation, the official scorekeeper for Congress, about 3 percent of people who report business income would face a tax increase under Obama's plan. That support's Biden's point.

The same report says those business owners account for about half of all business income. That supports Ryan.

RYAN: Notes that there have been four rounds of U.N. sanctions on Iran to deter its nuclear program, three during the Bush administration and one under Obama. "And the only reason we got it is because Russia watered it down and prevented the sanctions from hitting the central bank. Mitt Romney proposed these sanctions in 2007. In Congress, I've been fighting for these sanctions since 2009. The administration was blocking us every step of the way." He also noted the administration has granted 20 waivers to the sanctions.

THE FACTS: The argument that the administration was watering down or delaying sanctions is misleading. For sanctions to work, they need maximum global agreement and cooperation. Russia watered down U.N. sanctions not only under Obama, but also under Bush. And it's highly unlikely that a Romney administration, particularly led by a candidate who says Russia is the biggest geostrategic threat to the U.S., would be able to get Russia completely on board with what the U.S. wants to — either in Iran or Syria.

The more absolute U.S. sanctions that Ryan and others have pushed in Congress would have punished U.S. allies, including most countries in Europe as well as Japan and South Korea, along with good friends like India and Singapore —without the exemptions that were put in place.

The administration has indeed granted 20 waivers, to countries that made significant reductions in Iranian oil imports. And the sanctions are pinching; Iran has been convulsed over the past week with protests over the collapse of its currency, which most people say is a direct result of the sanctions that the U.S. and others have imposed.

[Edited on October 12, 2012 at 11:07 AM. Reason : .]

10/12/2012 11:04:41 AM

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/12/in-polls-biden-gets-a-hold/#more-35905

Quote :

"News media narratives tend to group horse-race developments into one of the three basic categories: win, lose, or draw. Sometimes, however, a political event falls into the awkward middle ground between those realms. Thursday night’s vice-presidential debate in Danville, Ky., is a potential example of this. Instant polls conducted after the debate are suggestive of something between a tie and a modest win for Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr."

10/12/2012 11:27:38 AM

“You and I are from similar towns. He’s from Scranton, Pennsylvania, I’m from Janesville, Wisconsin. Do you know what the unemployment rate in Scranton is today?” Ryan asked.

“Sure do,” Biden responded.

“Ten percent,” Ryan continued, “You know what it was the day you guys came in? 8.5 percent. That is happening all around America.”

“That’s not how it’s going,” Biden protested, “It’s going down!”

10/12/2012 11:32:15 AM

Post links for sources

10/12/2012 11:34:58 AM

^^ what isn't factual about that? You can cry and whine all you want about the numbers being cooked like Jack Welch but Biden is right. It's better for Romey/Ryan to hammer on the "it should be even better" rather than the "it's getting worse."

10/12/2012 11:47:33 AM

^^ that's straight from the debate, did you not watch it?

^ fact is unemployment has gone up. Surely you can agree to that.

10/12/2012 12:03:19 PM

dude what planet are you on??? unemployment is tumbling down.

10/12/2012 12:07:57 PM

Actually, no. I am looking at the numbers right now. It hasn't. In Obama's first full month in office it was 8.3%. It is 7.8% now.

However even if it had gone up it is a misleading attack unless you want to look at Obama's presidency in a vacuum and ignore that the recession hit the year before he took office.

This is all in the BLS website.

http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000000

[Edited on October 12, 2012 at 12:10 PM. Reason : X]

10/12/2012 12:10:27 PM

^^^ no, i did not memorize every single quote from the debate. so what would be helpful, when posting a quote, is to also include the source you copied it from so that I know that I don't need to independently search a transcript to verify exact wording and can trust, assuming that the source is credible, that they did that.

and i was also posting in relation to your fact checking

its good practice to always post your link when posting copied and pasted material

[Edited on October 12, 2012 at 12:12 PM. Reason : common sense: copy past something -> include the link]

10/12/2012 12:11:51 PM

Maybe Biden should've posted his source when he agreed the rate was 10%.

10/12/2012 12:21:02 PM

Did you do your own fact check on that one calmac? From Factcheck.org:

Quote :

"Ryan was wrong when he said a rise in the jobless rate in Biden’s hometown was “how it’s going all around America.” The rate nationally has sunk back to where it was when Obama took office. And in Ryan’s hometown, it’s more than 4 percentage points lower that it was at the start of Obama’s term."

http://factcheck.org/2012/10/veep-debate-violations/

10/12/2012 12:23:06 PM

All political banter aside, I really don't know what you're talking about. UE is 10% in Scranton, slightly up from 2008. Biden agreed to which Ryan said its going up everywhere, which is a blatant mistruth! It's actually steadily gone down for three years nationwide!

[Edited on October 12, 2012 at 12:25 PM. Reason : X]

10/12/2012 12:24:25 PM

pretty cut and dry

10/12/2012 12:57:36 PM

Ryan's performance reminded me of Jack Kemp's debate performance in 1996 against Al Gore. He was supposed to be the torchbearer of fiscal conservatism, like Ryan is now. But in the debate he was wooden, disinterested, and easily flustered. Ryan didn't seem disinterested or flustered so much as robotic, only able to repeat talking points. He dodged things he didn't want to talk about, and he wasn't able to articulate how Romney's platform would kickstart the economy. He also missed a golden opportunity to slam Biden for lying when Biden tried to attribute the great recession to debt issues from the Bush Tax Cuts and war spending. That is blatantly inaccurate.

Biden was a clown, but we already knew that about him. It seemed like he drank too much coffee before the debate and couldn't shut up or sit still in the middle of it. He calmed down a little in the end.

The debate focused mostly on foreign policy and national security, Biden's forte. Martha steered things towards the economy briefly, but she all but ignored the debt issues that Ryan loves to talk about. I'd say that overall, Biden won on substance, but both guys failed in terms of style.

[Edited on October 12, 2012 at 1:18 PM. Reason : 2]

10/12/2012 1:15:58 PM

This is the exchange the media is trying to hide with all their "Biden was a dick" talk,

Quote :

"BIDEN: And I love my friend here. I — I'm not allowed to show letters but go on our website, he sent me two letters saying, "By the way, can you send me some stimulus money for companies here in the state of Wisconsin?" We sent millions of dollars. You know... RADDATZ: You did ask for stimulus money, correct? BIDEN: Sure he did. By the way... RYAN: On two occasions we — we — we advocated for constituents who were applying for grants. That's what we do. We do that for all constituents who are... BIDEN: I love that. I love that. This was such a bad program and he writes me a letter saying — writes the Department of Energy a letter saying, "The reason we need this stimulus, it will create growth and jobs." His words. And now he's sitting here looking at me."

Ryan essentially admits that the stimulus created jobs.

[Edited on October 12, 2012 at 1:21 PM. Reason : :]

10/12/2012 1:20:20 PM

To be fair, Ryan wanted his constituents to get a piece of the pie. He'd be derelict in his duties had he not once a stimulus bill was passed.

10/12/2012 1:36:32 PM

The federal money Romney got for Utah probably dwarfs the federal money Ryan got.

10/12/2012 2:04:23 PM

^ How would Romney have procured federal money for Utah?

10/12/2012 2:42:19 PM

^^ hahaha....best thing I've read all day

10/12/2012 3:23:59 PM

^^olympics, dude got more money than all the other ones combined. Paid for bridges, buildings, police forces for towns,etc...

10/12/2012 3:49:40 PM

Your grasp on past events is fantastic.

In other news, the White House today is officially blaming Biden's demeanor, the laughing and smiling, on Paul Ryan.

My first thought was "at least it isn't George Bush this time."

[Edited on October 12, 2012 at 3:59 PM. Reason : -]

10/12/2012 3:57:31 PM

this is excellent:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/the-vice-presidential-debate-joe-biden-was-right-to-laugh-20121012

10/12/2012 4:24:34 PM

Of course you love it.

You would follow the man off a bridge, and lol, Rolling Stone (Matt Taibbi).

Quote :

"The load of balls that both Romney and Ryan have been pushing out there for this whole election season is simply not intellectually serious. "

Sentences like that make you feel smart don't they?

[Edited on October 12, 2012 at 4:53 PM. Reason : -]

10/12/2012 4:50:34 PM

which man would I follow off of a bridge?

10/12/2012 4:54:31 PM

I haven't read the RS article yet.

But, on Biden's laughing...I don't think it was good for appearances, and I know people might be put off by it. But, for those of us who are exasperated by Ryan's knack for distortion and deception, laughing is the most polite response we have. I personally want to see people laugh at him, dismiss him, and call him out all the time. And it would be nice if there was a can-do-no-wrong character out there who could publicly berate/humiliate him without taking a hit to their own credibility.

The fact that Paul Ryan is as influential as he is today is embarrassing. I would rather see aaronburro in office than this guy.

10/12/2012 5:02:36 PM

Quote :

" But, for those of us who are exasperated by Ryan's knack for distortion and deception, laughing is the most polite response we have."

No, laughing is the only response that unintelligent and/or immature people have.

Emotions have their place in debates, but when they become the central focus, whether you're incredibly pumped (Biden), or extremely lethargic (Obama), you're finished.

Case in point: It's all you remember about either of their performances.

Now I can understand that you don't like Ryan specifically, and likewise probably don't enjoy Romney. Good, don't vote for them. That was simple. You want to see people laugh at them constantly due to their knack for distortion or deception? Great! Watch Comedy Central and MSNBC for your news. You want them to be publicly berated? Terrific! Cheer for this goon Joe Biden.

But aside from casting your vote next month, don't pretend that you have any serious role in politics or contribute to meaningful discussion. If you don't understand the simple premise of when certain behaviors are allowed or not allowed, well, there are a variety of sensitive situations that you should probably avoid.

10/12/2012 5:11:35 PM

I read your whole post.

You'll never guess how I responded.

10/12/2012 5:17:55 PM

Like an ape I'm sure.

10/12/2012 5:20:01 PM

2 Chronicles 9:21

The king had a fleet of trading ships manned by Hiram’s servants. Once every three years it returned, carrying gold, silver and ivory, and apes and baboons.

10/12/2012 5:27:54 PM

^^No, I laughed...because you're being absurd.

I already acknowledged that I'm sure Biden didn't come off well to certain viewers. But you're behaving as if there is some hard-and-fast rule about no laughing. You can't expect to put people like Paul Ryan and Sarah Palin at the front of your party and not have millions of people lolling at them.

And laughter is a perfectly appropriate response to lies. What are you supposed to do? Engage the guy on his delusional turf just so he can tell you more lies? Most people just don't have time to entertain fools and liars. But apparently I do. LOL

10/12/2012 5:32:12 PM

i thought it was kinda funny that he laughed at some of the lies, and pretty effective. of course, he overdid it and probably should have toned it down some.

10/12/2012 5:36:25 PM

Wow, debate averaged 51.4 million viewers. Poor Ryan, his time as a nationally relevant politician is over if Obama wins re-election. Biden completely exposed him as a fraud to a national audience.

[Edited on October 12, 2012 at 5:39 PM. Reason : :]

10/12/2012 5:38:08 PM

The fact that you equate Ryan and Palin alone speaks volumes about your political knowledge in general.

Quote :

"And laughter is a perfectly appropriate response to lies."

If you're a child, maybe.

Quote :

"What are you supposed to do?"

Debate him.

Quote :

"Engage the guy on his delusional turf just so he can tell you more lies?"

Or you could put him on your turf if you're a competent debater and not an orangutan like Biden. Not surprising you didn't entertain this possibility though,

Quote :

"Most people just don't have time to entertain fools and liars. But apparently I do. LOL"

10/12/2012 5:41:19 PM

I equated Palin and Ryan because they both have elicited laughter. I'm aware that they're very different politicians with very different backgrounds.

And I think it's hilarious that you actually expect people to sincerely engage and debate Paul Ryan. He may be a liar, but you're still supposed to debate him! Those are the rules! LOL

10/12/2012 5:54:19 PM

Yes, those are the "rules."

Biden didn't follow them.

The day after isn't kind to Biden.

Isn't this painfully simple?

Would you prefer this outcome to Biden trouncing him and not eliciting any controversy? Are you happy that someone laughed at Ryan just because you believe Ryan deserves to be laughed at?

Wouldn't you rather Biden just flat-out win? End of story?

Again, you're immature. If your only reaction to lying is laughter than I'm glad I'm not your child or student.




Besides, you think Biden isn't a liar?

http://factcheck.org/2012/10/veep-debate-violations/
http://www.examiner.com/article/joe-biden-falsely-claimed-he-voted-against-afghanistan-iraq-wars-during-debate

Just admit you don't like Ryan on a personal level and be done with it. Don't vote for him.

...and try not to laugh at a funeral when someone says the corpse "looks so good."

[Edited on October 12, 2012 at 6:18 PM. Reason : -]

10/12/2012 6:12:03 PM

If the "controversy" is that Biden laughed too much, then I've already made plain that I'm totally okay with it. And I don't know Paul Ryan personally so I don't know how I could dislike him on a personal level. Trust me: I'd tell all of you if he once screwed my friend and never called her again.

And why do you keep telling me to be done with it? That's not how the Internet works, dude; nobody just decides to vote and then keeps quiet about it.

10/12/2012 6:41:04 PM

Just ignore him

10/12/2012 6:56:27 PM

Biden reminded everyone of that whiny liberal in their family that always gets way too emotional and excited whenever politics comes up at the dinner table. If you are that whiny liberal in your family, you loved it. If not, well, Biden came off as a dick. It's a shame, because Biden clearly won on substance but now people are only talking about his (debating) style.

10/12/2012 7:18:47 PM

When a wise man has a controversy with a foolish man, the foolish man either rages or laughs, and there is no rest.

Proverbs 29:9

10/12/2012 11:40:20 PM

^^ I think Biden was "coached" to exaggerate his passion.

He's a passionate guy. That's one of the redeeming qualities I like about Joe Biden.

He's entertaining.

After World's Best Orator's Performance last week, I'm sure the VP was encouraged to smile a lot. It's his nature, and he just went a little overboard (as he often does).

The trend between the two debates I saw is that in the first debate between the Prez and RMoney, when the Prez was actually looking up, he looked like he was above debating Rmoney and debating in general. The VP's responses in his debate was indicative of a man who feels like debating the person next to him is not worth his time.

For a VP to show that, it seems to me have the "I'm better than you" attitude. He treated the debate like it was a joke.

After the Debatacle last week, the talking heads said the only way to recover from BHO's performance was for the VP to shine.

1) Wait, you are expecting Joe-"JOBS"-is-a-three-letter-word Biden to rescue World's Greatest Orator? Wow...Three words: Des Per Ate.

2) He didn't shine (unless you count his forehead or his teeth), and so, he "lost," regardless of how poorly Paul Ryan did.

Full Disclosure: I'm a Ron Paul supporter, left the GOP this year and voted for Gary Johnson in WA State (as well as the legalization of marijuana).

10/13/2012 12:38:20 AM

Quote :

"'... laughter is a perfectly appropriate response to lies... What are you supposed to do?' Debate him."

Tell us, y0willy0: How would you debate Romney's or Ryan's lies?

And, please, be specific.

10/13/2012 2:33:17 AM

Quote :

"To be fair, Ryan wanted his constituents to get a piece of the pie. He'd be derelict in his duties had he not once a stimulus bill was passed."

ThTs true, but the right has been trying to push the idea that government can't create jobs, and here is Paul Ryan putting to paper that government can creat jobs. It's pretty damning, and was something I hadn't heard yet about Paul.

It something they should play up more too I think...

10/13/2012 11:26:00 AM

Everyone understands that the government can pay people to work. If the government takes money from the people, it can spend it on all kinds of crap. When people say the government can't create jobs, they mean that production and capital originates from the private sector, not the government.

[Edited on October 13, 2012 at 11:31 AM. Reason : ]

10/13/2012 11:30:45 AM