Quote :

"Him being black is irrelevant. He saw a person who he assumed was up to no good."

And WHY did he make that assumption? Right, because the kid was black. It is NOT irrelevant.

Quote :

"I guess we'll never know now that Zimmerman interrupted..."

There aren't enough s for that. I guess I should go around shooting people at random and then when asked why I can say "they were about to kill someone else. I interrupted them!" and you'd buy that, right?

Quote :

"There was a rash of break ins and he saw a person who was looking into homes at night."

Define "looking into homes". AGAIN, anything less than a zombie stare down the street must be enough for a lynching as far as you're concerned, right?

Quote :

"Police do it all the time based on suspicion."

Oh, Zimmerman is a policeman now? Jesus, you're stupid.

Quote :

"You're not even bothering to argue how this invalidates the self-defense defense. "

I'm not trying. I'm saying that if you stalk someone, you shouldn't be able to claim self-defense. Fuck the stupid FL law if it allows this. Plain and simple, you shouldn't be able to freaking stalk someone and then claim self-defense when the person you stalked actually defended himself from you. Is it your belief that it is NOT an aggressive act to stalk someone?

Quote :

"Trayvon taking more than half an hour to be ten minutes away from the gas station could be evidence of loitering or other suspicious behavior, like peering into homes as Zimmerman wrote in his statement that night."

Yep, dude doesn't walk the way you want him to. better lynch him!

Quote :

"Are you seriously suggesting that Trayvon wasn't significantly more prone to violence than the average teenager?"

That depends on how prone to violence you think the average teenager is. Oh, right, he's a nigger to you, so you think he must be a thug-rapist-murderer. I forgot

6/13/2013 11:57:44 PM

This whole Trayvon thing is just the inverse of the Jena 6 incident a few years ago. No matter what the situation the African American community is going to turn any incident between white and black folks into a racial issue.

Either the black person was attacked due to racial prejudice or the black person is doing to the attacking because they felt oppressed the white man and reacted against this suppressive environment.

[Edited on June 14, 2013 at 8:37 AM. Reason : a]

6/14/2013 8:36:00 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jena_Six

Quote :

"The Jena Six were six black teenagers convicted in the beating of Justin Barker, a white student at Jena High School in Jena, Louisiana, on December 4, 2006. Barker was injured in the assault by the members of the Jena Six, and received treatment for his injuries at an emergency room. While the case was pending, it was often cited by some liberal commentators as an example of racial injustice in the United States, due to a belief that the defendants had initially been charged with too-serious offenses and had been treated unfairly."

How meta can you get?

6/14/2013 8:51:03 AM

You know what, burro? Maybe you're right.

http://www.examiner.com/article/a-tale-of-two-trayvons-new-pix-and-texts-may-shape-murder-trial

Nov. 21, 2011:

Quote :

"MARTIN: Cause man dat nigga snitched on me FRIEND: Bae y you always fightinqq man, you got suspended? MARTIN: Naw we thumped afta skool in a duckd off spot FRIEND: Ohh, Well Damee MARTIN: I lost da 1st round but won da 2nd nd 3rd . . . . FRIEND: Ohhh So It Wass 3 Rounds? Damn well at least yu wonn lol but yuu needa stop fighting bae Forreal MARTIN: Nay im not done with fool..... he gone hav 2 see me again FRIEND: Nooo... Stop, yuu waint gonn bee satisified till yuh suspended again, huh? MARTIN: Naw but he aint breed nuff 4 me, only his nose"

Well, this "friend" is obviously a racist. Just because Martin is black, Martin is assumed to be always fighting and getting suspended.

And Martin, as an oppressed young black male, buys into the stereotype himself and has to put on an act that he's a gangsta. This oppression is so extensive Martin even has to pretend he wants his opponent to bleed more next time, and act like he wants to fight more. And Martin doesn't even object to the racist assumption that he's a violent guy! His sweet, innocent spirit is crushed by the weight of the prejudice against him.

Or, maybe, just maybe - Trayvon really was a violent thug who was always fighting, and maybe he really was upset that this opponent didn't bleed more.

And maybe, just maybe, Trayvon's violence and aggression toward this guy really was because the guy snitched, and was not an act at all. Who else do we know that Trayvon might have thought was acting like a snitch?

Snitches get stitches. Trayvon was almost able to ensure that, until he got so rudely interrupted.

6/14/2013 2:45:11 PM

So what is your opinion on Zimmerman, who was charged but not convicted TWICE for violence?

It was probably just a misunderstanding, I'm sure.

Text messages from a teen are far more damning then charges being filed and either reduced or settled. Again my point is Zimmerman is no less likely to have escalated this given his past than Trayvon was.

[Edited on June 14, 2013 at 2:54 PM. Reason : X]

6/14/2013 2:52:43 PM

Quote :

"Again my point is Zimmerman is no less likely to have escalated this given his past than Trayvon was."

This. Completely agree. What's more, if the standard for this type of stand your ground defense is "Preponderance of Evidence".

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Preponderance+of+Evidence

Then the trial is on track to be nasty. The recordings and witness accounts should determine the outcome if conducted right.

6/14/2013 3:10:26 PM

Well Zimmerman is fucked with any civil trial without a doubt but he'll get plenty of donations and whatnot to survive.

6/14/2013 3:18:58 PM

^^^^your biases are very apparent by your comments, and are very obviously inhibiting your ability to think rationally.


[Edited on June 14, 2013 at 3:20 PM. Reason : ]

6/14/2013 3:19:28 PM

^^^Multiple witnesses have changed their accounts, but were only changed after the story got national steam. All of the changes were unfavorable to Zimmerman. This isn't really a coincidence, given the typical narrative and coverage.

^^^^Trayvon was significantly more likely to have started and escalated the confrontation.

Zimmerman was charged once, and that was reduced probably because he does have meaningful family connections who could pull strings. Or the charge was overblown in the first place, but I lean toward the former. The second allegation was from his fiancee, and was part of a civil action, not criminal. Mutual restraining orders were granted. Who knows what really happened.

Shoving a police officer at a bar when a friend is getting questioned (or some situation similar to that, I can't remember) does show someone with bad character and bad judgment, who has at least some kind of violent streak in him.

These events were 6-7 years before this incident. If he were anywhere near Trayvon's level of thuggishness, there would be something more recent. Trayvon couldn't go a week without making an illegal gun purchase, getting in a fight, doing drugs, or stealing - and that's just what we know from the limited records we have.

In short, you can't even be close to Trayvon's equal in being an aggressive shithead and still go 6 years with no legal problems. I'm not a big fan of Zimmerman at all, but this game of calling them in any way equal is a bunch of bullshit.

[Edited on June 14, 2013 at 3:35 PM. Reason : carrots]

6/14/2013 3:32:23 PM

Momma said there'd be days like this, there'd be days like this my Momma said."

Momma said, Momma said!

6/14/2013 3:35:04 PM

Quote :

"Trayvon couldn't go a week without making an illegal gun purchase, getting in a fight, doing drugs, or stealing - and that's just what we know from the limited records we have."

I did not know the pics and texts were from the prior week.

6/14/2013 3:42:44 PM

How many illegal guns did he have again?

[Edited on June 14, 2013 at 3:51 PM. Reason : oh yeah, none on his person, but feel free to clarify the extent of his arsenal]

6/14/2013 3:51:20 PM

How many weeks are in a year? How old was he?

6/14/2013 3:52:22 PM

^^^ http://www.gzdocs.com/documents/0513/discovery_3/extraction_reports/report1.pdf

Talking about buying a .380, and more about weed on 2/21/12 and 2/22/12.

And you can be damn sure there is a reason his texts on 2/23-2/26 are redacted.

Quote :

"How many illegal guns did he have again?"

At least one. His friend offered to buy it, but he turned the offer down. He was 'finna get it' soon on 2/22.

We don't know the date of the picture he had holding a gun. It's a S&W Sigma, but the markings on the slide seems to say it's a .40. I wouldn't be surprised if he got the caliber wrong, but it's also a gun that could reasonably go for 150 as the friend mentions. Because it's a ghetto piece of crap.


[Edited on June 14, 2013 at 4:00 PM. Reason : d]

6/14/2013 3:54:00 PM

Quote :

"I'm not trying. I'm saying that if you stalk someone, you shouldn't be able to claim self-defense. Fuck the stupid FL law if it allows this. Plain and simple, you shouldn't be able to freaking stalk someone and then claim self-defense when the person you stalked actually defended himself from you. Is it your belief that it is NOT an aggressive act to stalk someone?"

Do you know of a lot of cases where stalkers/murderers call the police prior to engaging in that type of activity?
You're trying to paint Zimmerman as the thug, but thugs don't call the cops before they handle their business.
I'm not going to say whether Zimmerman initiated the physical conflict or Martin initiated it, but in my experience people don't usually call the cops and talk to them on the phone for several minutes before "stalking" someone to murder them. Quit acting like a jackass.

6/14/2013 6:19:49 PM

^ I think that is something worth considering if you are arguing against a premeditated murder. In which case, I would certainly agree that no logical actor in such a scenario would call the police before murdering someone if they did in fact have murderous intentions.

However, that is not really the charge Zimmerman is up against, to my knowledge. He is up against 2nd degree murder, which has no reliance on premeditation.

Having said that, I don't believe that Zimmerman saw Martin from his car and intended to murder him right off the bat. And I also think that you were responding to Burro's hyperbolic use of the word "stalking".


Anyway.... Tittyfarts

6/14/2013 6:50:54 PM

There's nothing wrong, per se, with following someone down a public road to see what they're up to.

Now, if he did it in a threatening or harassing manner, then Martin was justified in confronting him, even angrily.

Of course, unless Martin reasonably and genuinely feared for his safety, he was in the wrong to physically attack him.

This boils down to (a) who initiated physical contact--and I have seen no indication that it was Zimmerman, and (b) the nature of Zimmerman's following of Martin.


In any case, I find it really, really unlikely that this should be even 2nd degree murder. I think that most likely, he should be let off free, or maybe convicted of manslaughter, depending on the answers to the above questions.

6/14/2013 9:11:14 PM

Quote :

"This boils down to (a) who initiated physical contact--and I have seen no indication that it was Zimmerman, and (b) the nature of Zimmerman's following of Martin."

....the only indication that Martin initiated physical contact is an account coming from the guy who wasn't shot dead.
I guess the only smart thing Zimmerman did that night was murder the only other eye witness

[Edited on June 15, 2013 at 1:00 AM. Reason : cause ]

6/15/2013 12:57:22 AM

Irrespective of what you otherwise think is right or wrong in this case, do you really have any significant doubt that Martin initiated physical contact?

I mean, I suppose it's possible that Martin approached Zimmerman in a threatening manner, and Zimmerman initiated the physical contact, thinking that a fight was imminent and inevitable. That wouldn't, in and of itself, be wrong on Zimmerman's part.

I think it's all but a foregone conclusion that Martin initiated the altercation. The question is to what extent Zimmerman provoked it.

6/15/2013 1:57:06 AM

Quote :

"....the only indication that Martin initiated physical contact is an account coming from the guy who wasn't shot dead. "

I guess you could say as a technicality that the witness who saw Martin actively beating Zimmerman doesn't give information about the first punch, but it's still a pretty good indication that Martin initiated physical contact.

Quote :

"A witness to the confrontation just prior to the shooting stated that Martin was on top of Zimmerman and punching him, while Zimmerman was yelling for help. This witness, who identified himself as "John", stated that "the guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911". He went on to say that when he got upstairs and looked down, "the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."."

6/15/2013 7:12:38 AM

Quote :

"Irrespective of what you otherwise think is right or wrong in this case, do you really have any significant doubt that Martin initiated physical contact?"

Yes? Other than the account of the guy who obviously has reason to reconstruct the sequence of events in his favor, what reason would you have to believe that Martin initiated contact, irrespective of what you think is right or wrong?

This is something that we literally may never know. And no objective evidence that I've seen so far really points one way or another. For all we know, Zimmerman, whose sage-like reasoning and judgement that night.... the same reasoning and judgement that led his wanna be cop ass to literally get out of his car and chase a stranger on foot....may have grabbed Martin's arm and attempted to detain him.

Quote :

"I guess you could say as a technicality that the witness who saw Martin actively beating Zimmerman doesn't give information about the first punch, but it's still a pretty good indication that Martin initiated physical contact."

That's bullshit that it gives any sort of indication about who initiated first contact, and if that is something that you truly believe I really can't take anything that you say seriously. I have been in plenty of fights growing up that I didn't start, but I sure as fuck ended. That witness just lends credit to the idea that there was a struggle between Martin and Zimmerman.

[Edited on June 15, 2013 at 10:11 AM. Reason : lolololol]

6/15/2013 9:51:29 AM

^^http://www.examiner.com/article/report-witnesses-trayvon-martin-case-change-accounts-of-what-they-saw

That is one of the witnesses who changed his story after this things got national attention (and framing).

Quote :

"A male witness, identified as #6, first told police he saw a black male hitting a lighter skinned man, who was calling out for help. Weeks later, he told authorities the black male was the “guy on top,” but was not sure which male was yelling for help and would not “assume Martin was the one hitting Zimmerman,” according to the Sentinel."

6/15/2013 10:18:53 AM

What is Examiner.com? Every link you post is from there. I'm ignorant to it but I sort of remember that site pimping the "unskewed polls" bullshit that was made the fool last election cycle.

[Edited on June 15, 2013 at 1:12 PM. Reason : Oh it's the news equivalent of sbnation]

6/15/2013 1:10:02 PM

^Coincidence, really. I just looked for articles showing what I already knew from other places. Those came up, so that's what I listed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Examiner.com

6/15/2013 1:11:58 PM

Quote :

"That's bullshit that it gives any sort of indication about who initiated first contact, and if that is something that you truly believe I really can't take anything that you say seriously. I have been in plenty of fights growing up that I didn't start, but I sure as fuck ended. That witness just lends credit to the idea that there was a struggle between Martin and Zimmerman."

If one guy is known to be throwing punches and the other isn't, then that's a preponderance of evidence in the favor the guy who isn't. You come close to contradicting this, but it depends on how generous I am reading what you wrote. There's still a plausible scenario where Zimmerman started it, but a plausible scenario does not make a 2nd degree murder conviction.

For either ^^^ or ^^^^, my quote was from Wikipedia. So if there's an inaccuracy in the wording you can help your country by fixing it.

6/15/2013 3:32:03 PM

Quote :

"There's still a plausible scenario where Zimmerman started it, but a plausible scenario does not make a 2nd degree murder conviction."

I never claimed that a plausible scenario makes for a 2nd degree murder conviction. I'm not really sure where you got that from... I'm guessing your just made it up for some silly ass reason. If this is the case that you just made it up, I would kindly invite you to purchase a camel, and then lick the inside of it's asshole.

What I did to was:
A) Point out that the charge that Zimmerman faces is 2nd degree murder, which has no reliance on premeditation. Thus, the fact that Zimmerman called the police prior to the murder really is no absolution of the charges at hand.

and B) Point out that there is a scenario where Zimmerman initiated physical contact, but we will never really know the truth because there is only one side to the story.

It actually seems that the opposite is true, on this page of this thread at least... it seems as if some are saying the possibility that Martin initiated contact is a valid excuse for Zimmerman to have used deadly force in self defense.



but whatevs man... I've been around this carousel too many times on here, and really have no interest in going around again.

[Edited on June 15, 2013 at 4:29 PM. Reason : c is for cookie]

6/15/2013 4:28:31 PM

Quote :

"I have been in plenty of fights growing up that I didn't start, but I sure as fuck ended. "

Lol, EMCE, you stereotypical VIOLENT black!

6/15/2013 7:24:59 PM

Quote :

"I never claimed that a plausible scenario makes for a 2nd degree murder conviction."

Quote :

"it seems as if some are saying the possibility that Martin initiated contact is a valid excuse for Zimmerman to have used deadly force in self defense."

That's a baffling combination. If the standard here is "beyond a reasonable doubt", then yes, any credible possibility that Martin initiated contact is enough to prevent a 2nd degree murder conviction.

6/16/2013 7:18:25 AM

^ DING!

6/17/2013 1:51:12 PM

I think it's fair to say that either one of them could have prevented this from happening. This entire case is the result of stupidity.

[Edited on June 17, 2013 at 5:53 PM. Reason : .]

6/17/2013 5:52:19 PM

Yeah, Trayvon really fucked up when he decided to be born black. Think a bit harder about the consequences of your actions in the next life, kiddo.

6/19/2013 9:37:56 AM

Oh come the fuck on

6/19/2013 9:48:44 AM

Quote :

" For all we know, Zimmerman, whose sage-like reasoning and judgement that night.... the same reasoning and judgement that led his wanna be cop ass to literally get out of his car and chase a stranger on foot....may have grabbed Martin's arm and attempted to detain him."

This. A thousand times, this.

Quote :

"If one guy is known to be throwing punches and the other isn't, then that's a preponderance of evidence in the favor the guy who isn't."

Horseshit. That's not evidence towards who started it in any way, shape, or form. You're smarter than that.

^^ Yeah, he also fucked up by trying to get away from a guy who was stalking him in a car. Dude should have just taken it like a man

6/22/2013 6:22:20 PM

Zimmerman's fat ass ran down a 17yo black kid on foot?

6/23/2013 12:13:27 AM

6/24/2013 1:46:17 PM

So from the news articles today, it sounds like the prosecution is trying to portray Zimmerman as a wanna-be cop who was looking for a reason to shoot Trayvon. The defense is trying to portray Trayvon as a kid who had an opportunity to get away but decided to “sucker punch” Zimmeran and bash his head into the concrete making Zimmerman fear for his life and shoot Trayvon. I think the prosecution has a long ways to go.

6/24/2013 2:22:35 PM

Didn't Zimmerman follow this kid in his vehicle and then on foot, after being told not to and to wait for the actual police to arrive?

Sounds like something a wannabe cop would do.

6/24/2013 2:26:21 PM

Agreed...but there's nothing wrong with wanting to be a cop. Where the prosecution is going to have difficulty is proving that Zimmerman wanted to shoot Trayvon before he drew his weapon. Calling 911 is not something that a person wanting to commit murder would do prior to the crime.

6/24/2013 2:29:21 PM

Isn't he charged with 2nd degree murder?

What you're describing sounds like 1st degree murder to this TWW poster who learned everything he knows about the legal system through watching Night Court

6/24/2013 2:34:21 PM

There's no way they're going to be able to prove without a doubt that this is not a case of self defense. Absolutely none. So he's going to walk no matter what anybody thinks about it. All this is just a waste of money.

Whether he's innocent or guilty, that's what's gonna happen.

6/24/2013 2:59:35 PM

He would go to jail as an act of appeasement / riot prevention.

6/24/2013 3:23:53 PM

So basically opinions on this case come down to ideology right?

If I'm right of center I have to root to for the lighter skinned person?

6/24/2013 4:07:37 PM

Quote :

"What you're describing sounds like 1st degree murder to this TWW poster who learned everything he knows about the legal system through watching Night Court"

I am paraphrasing what the news is reporting the prosecution is trying to prove. I agree...sounds like they are arguing 1st degree.

Quote :

"Prosecutor John Guy's first words to jurors recounted what Zimmerman told a police dispatcher in a call shortly before the fatal confrontation with Martin: "F------ punks. These a-------. They always get away." Zimmerman was profiling Martin as he followed him through the gated community where Zimmerman lived and Martin was visiting, Guy said. He said Zimmerman viewed the teen "as someone about to a commit a crime in his neighborhood." "And he acted on it. That's why we're here," the prosecutor said. Zimmerman didn't have to shoot Martin, Guy said. "He shot him for the worst of all reasons: because he wanted to," he said."

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_NEIGHBORHOOD_WATCH?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-06-24-09-54-13

6/24/2013 4:16:10 PM

Wanting to in that moment doesn't necessarily have to be premeditated.

I don't know FLs exact first degree murder law definition but you can "want to" in the heat of the moment.

6/24/2013 4:26:31 PM

i guess you can "want to" not die

6/24/2013 4:36:59 PM

They are not arguing for 1st degree murder. The prosecution is arguing for 2nd degree murder.

What they are doing in the excerpt quoted above is trying to set the stage for one requirement of 2nd degree murder which is murder while acting with a depraved mind without regard for human life. To point out that Zimmerman said "....fucking punks. These assholes always get away" is reinforcement of the idea that he acted with a depraved mind....that WANTED Trayvon to be committing a crime so that he could catch him.



The defense, in my opinion, is going to stick with the murder being justified, because Zimmerman was getting his brains bashed in and was about to die..... So he had to pull the trigger and kill Trayvon.

[Edited on June 24, 2013 at 5:00 PM. Reason : Dd]

6/24/2013 4:56:44 PM

That is a far simpler position to take.

The prosecution messed up with 2nd degree murder instead of manslaughter, and they also messed up on the jury.

So far the defense has only messed up on their knock-knock joke this morning.

6/24/2013 5:13:23 PM

I am wondering if the defense will not rely on Zimmerman having been the first physical aggressor. This seems in-line with their arguments, as well as the framing ^^

Earlier in the thread I had wondered about this scenario, but the prosecution's case seems unclear even now. If someone argues that Zimmerman wanted to shoot Trayvon, it's not a big jump to argue that he wanted Trayvon to throw a punch.

So far no one has specifically argued the position that Zimmerman should be convicted even if he didn't throw the first punch. Any takers?

[Edited on June 24, 2013 at 5:19 PM. Reason : ]

6/24/2013 5:19:27 PM

I suggested he be sacrificed to avoid riots.

6/24/2013 5:23:55 PM

I think that both the prosecution and defense will have their respective challenges.


The defense, as I mentioned above, is going to have to sell the story that Zimmerman was getting his brains bashed in pretty good. The pictures of his face all smashed up helps. However, I personally think that the defense will have a heck of a time getting the jury to believe that this knockdown, drag-out fight took place (as Zimmerman described)... and Trayvon's attempt grab the gun (as Zimmerman described) without any of Zimmerman's DNA on Martin's hands/fingernails, or fingerprints on the gun, respectively.

6/24/2013 5:59:10 PM