chop off their hands like the taliban!

or just push a wall on top of them.

10/2/2013 12:57:11 PM

^ You just reminded me of one of my favorite apocryphal stories about weird sentences from muslim courts. The story goes that a man was sentenced to death via having a house pushed over on him by a tank. However, due to budgetary limitations, that sentence was modified to garden wall pushed over with a lawn mower. Moderately bruised, the man was released with the sentence having been carried out.

10/2/2013 1:18:49 PM

I vaguely remember seeing a video of a thief having a wall pushed on him in afghanistan. i think it was during the lead-up to Operation Enduring Freedom

[Edited on October 2, 2013 at 1:26 PM. Reason : ]

10/2/2013 1:25:22 PM

Quote :

""maybe if we rehabilitated rather than punished, we could learn more from ex-cons. maybe this could result in fewer crimes and fewer criminals?? whoa...""

ok i'll bite. rehabilitation usually only works when someone wants to get help/better. i'm all about it, but some people (ie. serial rapists, mass murderers, terrorists) don't want to be helped, and society certainly doesn't want to help them either.

10/2/2013 1:59:04 PM

maybe we could also learn from the people who don't want to be helped

10/2/2013 2:06:53 PM

it may be true that some people can't be helped but there still is huge room for improvement; just look at recidivism rates in other countries with better prison systems vs recidivism rates here

10/2/2013 2:17:25 PM

right, but i've been talking about people that can't be helped the whole time. they're the exceptions. i don't think it's really so awful to not to want to help serial rapists, mass murderers, and terrorists.

i get all the arguments against the death penalty, and many of them are well founded and logical, but the bottom line is that there are too many extreme cases to ignore and just hope they get 'better'.

10/2/2013 2:35:53 PM

Not to get into a semantics argument, but I'm not sure it's fair to put "terrorist" in the same category as serial rapist and killers.... lots of "terrorists" are young, poor, uneducated, and often somewhat brainwashed. I'd think that many of them could actually be rehabilitated.

10/2/2013 2:44:36 PM

the recidivism rates are lower even for these people who "can't be helped", so apparently some of them can be helped.

but regardless we are talking about incarceration vs. death penalty, no one is suggesting that they get thrown back into society when the trial is done.

10/2/2013 3:03:36 PM

^^
it could also be argued that many serial killers/rapists are poorly educated/raised, sociopathic (beyond their control), etc.

10/2/2013 3:43:56 PM

clearly educating everyone will solve everything. so let's get to work. i'm already doing my part, how about you?

10/2/2013 3:57:10 PM

you're really caught in this false dilemma where the options are either state-sanctioned murder or trying to reform every inmate so you can release every inmate. nothing about prison reform means every convict will turn into an angel, and its a somewhat separate (and important) issue from the death penalty.

10/2/2013 4:04:27 PM

wat?

i'm all for prison reform. it's absurd that some states like CA pay far more to maintain their prisons than they spend on education. i've stated numerous times that i'm all for legalizing/regulating drugs and spending the money we're wasting on the failed war on drugs on rehabilitation/education programs instead, which would really impact our overcrowded prisons and penal system.

i just think that the death penalty should still be an option for particularly horrendous offenders (ie the Jeffrey Dahmers/Ted Bundys/Timothy McVeighs/pieces of shit gangbangers that shoot 8 year olds at point blank range and go on to kill others). YOU are the one seeing this as a black or white issue. i also think it's funny how people automatically assumed i meant jihadist millitants or Irish carbombers when I was actually referring to DOMESTIC terrorists, since we are talking about US capital punishment.

but you know what? all of the education in the world can't prevent some people for being complete and utter pyschopaths that will harm society as much as possible if given the chance. it's cute that you think we should keep them around for 'moral' reasons (mainly, so you can feel better about yourself), but i'm more pragmatic about it. there are obviously exceptions to every rule, but you'd rather live in a fantasy land of absolutes.

[Edited on October 2, 2013 at 5:46 PM. Reason : .]

10/2/2013 5:44:56 PM

Explain why vengeance is justification for murder

[Edited on October 2, 2013 at 7:04 PM. Reason : and i never assumed anything about terrorists, are you talking to me?]

10/2/2013 7:03:48 PM

Manufacturers of the drugs used for the death penalty have banned their use in capital punishment. This has caused a problem since stockpiles have been depleted, so now states are searching for new drugs.

Ohio just tried a new combination, and it went... poorly. The victim experienced air hunger and suffered for more than 15 minutes; making gasping and snorting sounds while struggling after 10 minutes. In what way is that not cruel?

The death penalty is immoral in any situation, but this method is certainly cruel and should be banned.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_OHIO_EXECUTION?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

1/17/2014 7:36:18 AM

I can't help but find it ironic that the pro-life people posting in this thread are vehemently pro-choice in the other thread.

You'll tell me that it is just as ironic that the pro-life people in the other thread can't wait to send people to the electric chair, so to speak, and maybe that's true. But a fetus hasn't had the chance to make the bad decisions that led the death row people to where they are.

1/17/2014 7:48:51 AM

fetuses aren't people

1/17/2014 8:24:44 AM

[Edited on January 17, 2014 at 8:43 AM. Reason : double post]

1/17/2014 8:42:25 AM

I can't help but find it ironic that the pro-life people posting in other thread are vehemently pro-murder in this thread.

actually, i don't find that ironic, because its not ironic. those two positions do conflict though.

also, pro-choice and anti-death penalty positions are not contrary to each other

[Edited on January 17, 2014 at 8:47 AM. Reason : .]

1/17/2014 8:42:51 AM

^^^ depends on when you're talking about

1/17/2014 9:01:18 AM

and your personal opinion of where the line is drawn

1/17/2014 9:14:03 AM

to the pro-death penalty people:

does it matter to you if this new method causes suffering?

1/17/2014 9:58:12 AM

depends on the case. if it's proven without doubt (video, confession) that someone committed murder of an innocent person (especially cases that also involve other inhumane acts like rape or torture) i'm cool with the criminal suffering.

1/17/2014 11:49:39 AM

^^ it should to any american.

We can't mock the taliban for chopping off hands and fingers and slicing peoples' throats while we also put people to death in gruesome, torturous ways.

[Edited on January 17, 2014 at 12:18 PM. Reason : ]

1/17/2014 12:18:25 PM

Quote :

"if it's proven without doubt (video, confession)"

Nothing can ever be proven beyond any and all doubt. Videos can be doctored. Confessions can be coerced.

1/17/2014 12:28:36 PM

Quote :

"i'm cool with the criminal suffering."

so if the crime is bad enough, fuck the 8th amendment? or just fuck the bill of rights in general?

1/17/2014 12:36:40 PM

depends on what your definition of "cruel and unusual" is.
some might say "cruel", i might say "exactly what's deserved". that doesn't apply in any way that i'm against the bill of rights.. but you can jump to hyperbolic conclusions all day i guess.

1/17/2014 12:43:13 PM

whether or not something is "deserved" doesn't change the nature of the act, so it wouldn't change whether or not something is cruel

so your opinion is "fuck the 8th amendment, I'm a sadist!"

1/17/2014 12:46:00 PM

Quote :

"Nothing can ever be proven beyond any and all doubt. Videos can be doctored. Confessions can be coerced."

okay, next time some dickhead shoots up a school or a movie theatre, let's let him go because obviously we can't prove that he did it? because that's a very real case here. if it's he said/she said, that's a different story altogether.

^ um... no.

[Edited on January 17, 2014 at 12:46 PM. Reason : ]

1/17/2014 12:46:09 PM

or, you know, imprison him

1/17/2014 12:46:46 PM

Quote :

"or, you know, imprison him"

yeah that'll teach him. i love the idea of my taxes going towards keeping that guy alive and well for the next 30 some odd years or more.

second chances are great. if you steal, assault someone, even non-fatally shoot someone... that other person can generally recover. when you murder an innocent person, they don't get another chance at life so why should you? their families don't get anything back. in fact, you're forcing those victims' families to take care of the one person that ruined their lives.

[Edited on January 17, 2014 at 12:51 PM. Reason : ]

1/17/2014 12:48:06 PM

if money is a concern, then killing him is going to cost you more of it

Quote :

"yeah that'll teach him"

teach him? dead people can't learn anything. i think you mean "that won't satisfy mine/their victim's blood lust!"



[Edited on January 17, 2014 at 12:53 PM. Reason : .]

1/17/2014 12:49:51 PM

^^ You said proven "without doubt", implying some level above "beyond a reasonable doubt" which is what we currently convict people on.

"Without doubt" is impossible. "Beyond a reasonable doubt" works pretty well for the most part, but it does lead to some errors, which can be corrected if the person is still alive.

If they are dead because you killed them in some sadistic way.... Welp.

[Edited on January 17, 2014 at 12:52 PM. Reason : .]

1/17/2014 12:51:24 PM

Quote :

"if money is a concern, then killing him is going to cost you more of it"

okay so money's a question eh? i can get 50 rounds of 40 cal ammo for around $17. that's around 34 cents. put a bullet in their head and be done with it. throw in some estimates for label and fuel to burn the body. done and done.

amazing, two people in here calling me a sadist when they want everybody to suffer because of someone else.

[Edited on January 17, 2014 at 12:54 PM. Reason : ]

1/17/2014 12:53:36 PM

like i said, fuck the bill of rights

[Edited on January 17, 2014 at 12:57 PM. Reason : so where you said "um... no" you meant "YES!"]

1/17/2014 12:54:50 PM

Quote :

"amazing, two people in here calling me a sadist when they want everybody to suffer because of someone else."

Yeah, you know, that someone else who probably did it. More than likely anyway.

1/17/2014 12:57:42 PM

Fry watched Judge Dredd and thought it looked like an awesome future

(and not a satirical commentary on the growing police state and loss of civil liberties)

1/17/2014 12:59:23 PM

you guys i still think you're wrong. you think the same of me. i've said what i thought. you can twist it however you want. i'm good on this thread. take it easy.

[Edited on January 17, 2014 at 1:03 PM. Reason : ]

1/17/2014 1:01:30 PM

how many times does a person have to get sentenced to death only to be found not guilty after before people start re-thinking their stance on the death penalty?

1/17/2014 1:08:43 PM

But Clint Eastwood just shot the ones in the black hats. That was satisfying to watch so I think real life should be like that.

1/17/2014 1:23:46 PM

No one should suffer in their death penalty. If they did by design of our government, or even lack of oversight, then that is wrong.

1/17/2014 1:27:53 PM

Quote :

"No one should suffer in their death penalty. If they did by design of our government, or even lack of oversight, then that is wrong."

Doesn't killing someone cause them suffering? What, in your opinion, is the point of the death penalty?

1/17/2014 1:30:53 PM

I support the death penalty in concept but not necessarily in practice. Our legal system is too fucked and we wrongly convict way too many people to make it ok to use the death penalty anywhere near as much as we do. There should be some hard requirements like video evidence and damning DNA evidence before the death penalty should be on the table.

The death penalty has a real purpose. Some people should be eliminated from society because they cannot be rehabilitated.

1/17/2014 4:17:27 PM

So you put those people in prison

1/17/2014 4:47:36 PM

Why? You just end up with violent sociopaths doing things like killing and assaulting other prisoners.

Unless you want them segregated and isolated from everyone else, which in my opinion is akin to torture. I would much rather have a clean death than 60 years of solitary prison.

1/17/2014 5:27:05 PM

if its worse than the death penalty, then why do so many people fight the death penalty? i'd be fine if you gave them a choice, suicide is not immoral.

1/17/2014 6:18:04 PM

Quote :

"maybe we could also learn from the people who don't want to be helped"

To a certain extent, you are right. But instead of keeping psychotic, murderous, sociopaths who will kill others at will alive indefinitely, we should cap the learning at some point and then flip the switch.

1/19/2014 6:05:53 AM

Quote :

"f its worse than the death penalty, then why do so many people fight the death penalty?"

it isn't worse than the death penalty. charles manson probably ejaculates all over the floor each and every time he gets to scare the ever living shit out of a stranger.

1/19/2014 6:07:57 AM

Quote :

""Without doubt" is impossible."

um, no it isn't. murderers admit to their crimes all the time

1/19/2014 6:10:59 AM

One thing that does scare me about the death penalty is the jury pool. Only those that are too stupid to get out of jury duty ever serve, and that is terrifying...to thing that if I'm ever wrongly convicted, I have Larry, Moe, and Curly deciding my fate.

1/19/2014 8:42:41 AM