Quote :

"ou don't have to be against feeding the homeless to be against feeding them in the park there are multiple shelters and soup kitchen within walking distance of that park, all we are asking is that they use one of those facilities or a public space where they live so they see the full effects of their actions"

NIMBY bullshit. someone needs to set up a soup kitchen in the nicest part of town.

Quote :

"If you're handing out Jesus Biscuits and coffee for free, every Saturday and Sunday, no questions asked, how many of those people are really homeless, vs people just passing through b/c they know they can get free food and coffee? Isn't the city bus terminal about 100 yards away? If you had 20 minutes until your Cat bus showed up and you didn't want to pay for breakfast, Jesus Biscuits are right there."

i don't see this being much of an issue. are you saying they should only serve to people who are dirty enough? homeless shelters have showers, you know.

8/26/2013 8:51:17 AM

Quote :

"I think we should make the homeless work for what is given to them. What is the incentive for them to better themselves, if all we do is hand them all they need? Make them clean up litter for a sandwich. Make them do landscaping in the park for a cot."

If you get to know homeless people you can learn a lot. They're actually quite eager to tell you all about their lives. Sometimes to the point of being downright annoying. The guy I knew made about $400 / month, yes, doing landscaping basically. Problem is that work is just plain sporadic. They can get a job, at some place they don't have transportation to. Everything is always legally under the table.

But in short, no one wants to hire these people.

Quote :

"there are multiple shelters and soup kitchen within walking distance of that park, all we are asking is that they use one of those facilities or a public space where they live so they see the full effects of their actions"

So you didn't read their blog post. The Moore Square Jesus biscuits are the only game in town during the weekends according to them. You want them to just not eat during the weekend I guess?

8/26/2013 9:05:04 AM

Quote :

"according to them."

and is this statement actually true?

8/26/2013 9:07:01 AM

Quote :

"and is this statement actually true?"

do you have evidence to suggest otherwise?

8/26/2013 9:12:24 AM

http://lovewins.info/2013/08/feeding-homeless-apparently-illegal-in-raleigh-nc/

Quote :

"On the weekends people have no where else to go other than the park because Wake County and/or the City of Raleigh offers no soup kitchens or other options on the weekends. None. There is no “official” place you can get a meal if you are homeless or at-risk of homelessness. You are left to your wits, and for the last six years, you could get a cup of hot coffee and a hot breakfast sandwich from us – because you could not get one from any tax funded location."

I don't personally have 6 years of experience running a Jesus biscuits stand. So obviously they know a hell of a lot better than you or I. Maybe you don't trust them, which would be ridiculous. They've demonstrated a hell of a lot more character than we have typing into TWW.

8/26/2013 9:12:44 AM

Well it's not actually illegal to feed the homeless in Raleigh but you all seem content to let them spout that bullshit

guess I'm the only one who wonders what else they may be lying about

8/26/2013 9:28:37 AM

Have they attempted to go through the correct channels and start a weekend program that is legal? Or did they just immediately jump to this option? Also, if five churches are involved why not use the churches to hand out biscuits instead?

8/26/2013 9:31:02 AM

this thread makes me want biscuits

8/26/2013 9:32:36 AM

If Bojangles was smart, they'd be all over this with their mobile biscuit truck

The positive PR would be insane

8/26/2013 9:42:27 AM

Quote :

"On the weekends people have no where else to go other than the park because Wake County and/or the City of Raleigh offers no soup kitchens or other options on the weekends. "

false, there are kitchens open on weekends. just because there is no "official" place doesn't mean there aren't places open.

and some of the places like shepherd's table would be open on weekends if they had staffing, so maybe these weekend warriors can volunteer at one of these existing facilities that are not open on the weekend because they don't have the staff, they can serve food out of an existing soup kitchen

8/26/2013 9:48:55 AM

Quote :

"Lol, so is it the homeless or the "clean clothes wearing non homeless" that upsets us in Moore Square? I'm confused. Just come out and say you don't want to see all the blacks. "

Maybe people dont like the idea of vagrants coming from all parts of the town to one centralized spot (in front of their house). I also imagine there are white people among the homeless...but that is just a guess.

8/26/2013 9:55:40 AM

Quote :

"Maybe people dont like the idea of vagrants coming from all parts of the town to one centralized spot (in front of their house)"

Quote :

""I want to move downtown [in/near Moore Square], but I don't want to deal with things that occur downtown [in/near Moore Square]""

8/26/2013 10:00:15 AM

Lost in this discussion is the fact that Moore Square isn't a terrible public space because of the homeless, it's a terrible public space because it's a terrible public space. Fortunately, the renovation should change that, but I feel like some people have this idea in their head that if only the homeless weren't there Moore Square would be some vibrant park filled with good old white families out sitting on the grass and staring at the acorn.

8/26/2013 10:01:18 AM

except that all being in this park is not what is normal in the city, they only congregate there because that's where these suburb dwellers hand out free food

8/26/2013 10:01:51 AM

Quote :

"Well it's not actually illegal to feed the homeless in Raleigh but you all seem content to let them spout that bullshit"

http://www.wral.com/nonprofit-says-it-was-threatened-with-arrest-for-feeding-raleigh-homeless/12815894/

Quote :

"Sec. 9-2022 of the rules governing city parks prohibits the distribution of food without a permit."

8/26/2013 10:02:45 AM

Quote :

"they only congregate there because that's where these suburb dwellers hand out free food"

Oh. I thought they congregate there because of the homeless shelters nearby. My bad.

8/26/2013 10:04:25 AM

those are a few blocks away, the one right there relocated

[Edited on August 26, 2013 at 10:10 AM. Reason : .]

8/26/2013 10:09:58 AM

Isn't the Salvation Army located right on the square?

8/26/2013 10:13:27 AM

dtownral, why should there not be services for homeless people in Moore's Square? Is it because you live there?

Why would any other place be better?

[Edited on August 26, 2013 at 10:14 AM. Reason : .]

8/26/2013 10:14:05 AM

Quote :

"The Salvation Army is no longer there. They've moved a few miles north on Capital. The city owns the old Salvation Army property. Its redevelopment is part of the effort to push the homeless out of the park."

8/26/2013 10:14:07 AM

I wasn't aware this was making national news!

http://gma.yahoo.com/church-group-members-threatened-arrest-handing-biscuits-coffee-041141792--abc-news-topstories.html

8/26/2013 10:17:28 AM

Quote :

""Sec. 9-2022 of the rules governing city parks prohibits the distribution of food without a permit.""

I see that you're interpreting "without a permit" as "you can't ever give food to homeless people, it's completely illegal in all situations".

I think we've found your problem.

8/26/2013 10:21:28 AM

And it's as sensationalist as I would expect. Look at these mean cops preventing people from feeding the hungry!

Easy narrative to sell, but completely detached from reality.

8/26/2013 10:21:31 AM

Quote :

"but completely detached from reality"

How so?

8/26/2013 10:25:50 AM

Quote :

"I see that you're interpreting "without a permit" as "you can't ever give food to homeless people, it's completely illegal in all situations"."

It is well-established that the church's position is that their stand was legal because it was on the sidewalk.

The interpretation the cops are applying basically does say that you can't give food to homeless people in public places. Then again, no one has formally offered a legal reasoning behind their threat to detain the volunteers. So I might as well interpret the threat as being exactly what you say it is not.

8/26/2013 10:28:19 AM

And it's well established that if you bothered to read the thread, you'd see the specific City Ordinances and DHHS regulations that they were still breaking passing Jesus Biscuits and Coffee out on the sidewalk.

No one said you can't give food out to homeless people in public places.

8/26/2013 10:31:34 AM

Quote :

"How so?"

It misses the context and the back story, which are very important. People that do not live in our around Moore square are coming in every weekend and putting on event that draws all of the homeless in the city, and then they leave. Let's bus all these homeless people in Moore square to Preston in Cary and see how loving these suburbanites really are.

8/26/2013 10:33:39 AM

Quote :

"It misses the context and the back story, which are very important. People that do not live in our around Moore square are coming in every weekend and putting on event that draws all of the homeless in the city [hahahahaha], and then they leave. Let's bus all these homeless people in Moore square to Preston in Cary and see how loving these suburbanites really are."

So you're saying cops weren't preventing people from feeding the hungry, when that is exactly what was occurring. It sounds like you're the one detached from reality dude.

8/26/2013 10:36:25 AM

Quote :

"People that do not live in our around Moore square"

So I guess the people who live in Moore square include the squirrels?

8/26/2013 10:39:14 AM

Quote :

"Let's bus all these homeless people in Moore square to Preston in Cary and see how loving these suburbanites really are."

I'm 100% for this.

But don't you think it makes a little more sense to bring the food to the homeless, rather than bus the homeless somewhere else?

8/26/2013 10:41:14 AM

Quote :

"So you're saying cops weren't preventing people from feeding the hungry other people in a public space without the required permits, insurance, and meeting the NC sanitation requirements?"

I fixed this for you, and yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

No one is saying you can't serve food to homeless people. They just need to follow the same rules and standards that have been established for years and that everyone else is held to.

8/26/2013 10:42:20 AM

Quote :

"So you're saying cops weren't preventing people from feeding the hungry other people"

Oh so you're saying they're not hungry. Ok. You're probably also one of those assholes who are all like "damn he has way too nice clothes to be begging" whenever you see a homeless dude asking for change.

8/26/2013 10:44:08 AM

^^
Nearly as ridiculous as this:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/08/03/the-inexplicable-war-on-lemonade-stands/

Actually maybe more-so, because no one is making money from it.

[Edited on August 26, 2013 at 10:45 AM. Reason : .]

8/26/2013 10:45:03 AM

Quote :

"So you're saying cops weren't preventing people from feeding the hungry, when that is exactly what was occurring. It sounds like you're the one detached from reality dude."

I'm not saying that. I'm saying the cops were enforcing an ordinance that came about for a reason. The cops didn't just show up and decide to be mean, they were enforcing a law.

Quote :

"I'm 100% for this. But don't you think it makes a little more sense to bring the food to the homeless, rather than bus the homeless somewhere else?"

The homeless are all over the city. They tend to hang out closer to Moore square because there's a reason to be there every Sunday.

[Edited on August 26, 2013 at 10:46 AM. Reason : ]

8/26/2013 10:45:53 AM

Quote :

"Oh so you're saying they're not hungry."

How do we know they were hungry? Are you out there qualifying their level of hunger? Is anyone? No, they just give Jesus Biscuits out to anyone who walks by.

8/26/2013 10:46:31 AM

Quote :

"I'm not saying that. I'm saying the cops were enforcing an ordinance that came about for a reason. The cops didn't just show up and decide to be mean, they were enforcing a law."

So you're only issue with the accuracy of this:

Quote :

"Look at these mean cops preventing people from feeding the hungry!"

Is the word mean, which you placed into the conversation, as it's not in the article. SET EM UP AND KNOCK EM DOWN!

Quote :

"How do we know they were hungry? Are you out there qualifying their level of hunger? Is anyone? No, they just give Jesus Biscuits out to anyone who walks by."

Your bias at the end of the that statement invalidates the points you were trying to make. Try harder.

8/26/2013 10:48:58 AM

No they're still perfectly valid points.

8/26/2013 10:51:59 AM

Quote :

"Is the word mean, which you placed into the conversation, as it's not in the article. SET EM UP AND KNOCK EM DOWN!"

Don't be this dense. My point is that focusing on the enforcement of laws misses the point. They've been doing this stuff in Moore square for years. Do you think the cops just decided to shut it down one day? No, the administration told them to do it. Why did they tell them to do it? That's the discussion that has to take place.

8/26/2013 10:52:10 AM

Quote :

"How do we know they were hungry? Are you out there qualifying their level of hunger? Is anyone? No, they just give Jesus Biscuits out to anyone who walks by."

What relevance does this hold?

8/26/2013 10:54:37 AM

apparently a lot

people seem to think that just because they're giving food to a specific socio-economic class that the laws shouldn't apply to them

8/26/2013 10:56:20 AM

Quote :

"http://library.municode.com/HTML/10312/level4/DIVIICOGEOR_PT12LIRE_CH1STPUWA_ARTBSTUSCL.html#DIVIICOGEOR_PT12LIRE_CH1STPUWA_ARTBSTUSCL_S12-1022USSIPRPUPEREIN There is a link to the City Ordinance requiring a permit for use of public sidewalks. Did the people handing out food obtain a permit? Insurance is also required."

It's kind of amazing that Sayer thinks he knows NC law better than WRAL. There is no other source that cites this Ordinance.

[Edited on August 26, 2013 at 10:58 AM. Reason : ]

8/26/2013 10:57:17 AM

^^
"hungry" is not a socio-economic class

[Edited on August 26, 2013 at 10:57 AM. Reason : .]

8/26/2013 10:57:32 AM

hungry, homeless, less fortunate

it's all being used to refer to the same group of people here

8/26/2013 10:58:34 AM

Quote :

"No they're still perfectly valid points."

Nope. Calling them JESUS BISCUITS mean you are naturally opposed to their efforts from the get-go, so not willing to concede that many [no one is saying all] of those people are actually homeless and actually hungry.

Quote :

"What relevance does this hold?"

It really doesn't. See above.

Quote :

"My point is that focusing on the enforcement of laws misses the point. They've been doing this stuff in Moore square for years. Do you think the cops just decided to shut it down one day? No, the administration told them to do it. Why did they tell them to do it? That's the discussion that has to take place."

You can still focus on the enforcement, while including the context. But to say their "detached from reality" for focusing on the enforcement is pretty fucking stupid. Holy shit the media focuses on the sensationalist part of a story. Never saw that coming!

And they do deal with some of the context here:

Quote :

"While the group said it was aware they could not use the park itself, they had set up on the sidewalk for the past six years without issue, their website said. "No representative from the Raleigh Police Department was willing to tell us which ordinance we were breaking, or why, after six years and countless friendly and cooperative encounters with the Department, they are now preventing us from feeding hungry people," Hollowell wrote. In addition, the group learned it would need to apply for a permit to use the park, which costs $800 a day, their website said."

So what's your point, they're missing the point about the city trying to flush the homeless out of that area? Perhaps they'll provide an update when they learn that info. You know they do that sometimes right?

8/26/2013 10:59:49 AM

^^
so what would your litmus test for homelessness be

maybe we could have them register with the police station and wear a patch

[Edited on August 26, 2013 at 11:00 AM. Reason : ..]

8/26/2013 11:00:08 AM

Regarding this whole deal:

Raleigh, North Carolina, Code of Ordinances >> DIVISION II - CODE OF GENERAL ORDINANCES >> PART 12 - LICENSING AND REGULATION >> CHAPTER 1. - STREETS AND PUBLIC WAYS >> ARTICLE B. - STREET USE AND CLEANLINESS >>

Sec. 12-1022. - USE OF SIDEWALKS FOR PRIVATE PURPOSES; PERMIT REQUIRED; INSURANCE.

What the hell was the disposition of Occupy Raleigh within this Ordinance? They had to be able to pick up all their tents with nothing touching the ground when the cops demanded. But they could still be there.

Should the the Jesus biscuits be perfectly legal if they can pass the pickup test?

8/26/2013 11:02:17 AM

Quote :

"dtownral, why should there not be services for homeless people in Moore's Square? Is it because you live there? Why would any other place be better?"

because the park is unusable due to harassment and panhandling. if the people in the neighborhood are okay with this then fine, except that we are not and have been actively lobbying against this for years.

8/26/2013 11:04:22 AM

Quote :

"What the hell was the disposition of Occupy Raleigh within this Ordinance? They had to be able to pick up all their tents with nothing touching the ground when the cops demanded. But they could still be there."

I wondered the same thing when I read through it.

What about the DHHS standards for Food Safety and Distribution, did you get a chance to look through that?

8/26/2013 11:06:48 AM

Quote :

"because the park is unusable due to harassment and panhandling. if the people in the neighborhood are okay with this then fine"

Unusable my ass. I've used the shit out of that park over the last few years, at all different hours of the day.

8/26/2013 11:12:25 AM

Quote :

"I fixed this for you, and yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. No one is saying you can't serve food to homeless people. They just need to follow the same rules and standards that have been established for years and that everyone else is held to."

Actually, if the Chief of Police decides that the use of the park to feed homeless hinders or impedes the regular use of the park, then you can't get a permit and can't feed the homeless no matter what

Which is why we are currently writing letters to the city managers and chief of police thanking them for stopping this

8/26/2013 11:14:13 AM