Quote :

"[image]http://[/image]"

I live in Santa Barbara, 2 counties to the left from Los Angeles. It's a strange place overrun by retired wealthy WASPs, yet is one of the most socially progressive cities in the country. Trump won 1/3 of the vote, but his supporters definitely made (and are still making) the most noise.

11/18/2016 4:24:32 PM

That sounds pretty similar to Orange County, La Jolla in SD, Contra Costa County (Danville, Alamo, Blackhawk, etc). Rich Californians don't really care how others live their lives, but they hate to pay taxes, even though their tax dollars give them the best schools, hospitals, roads, and parks. They're just fiscally conservative, not socially regressive.

11/18/2016 4:28:53 PM

Sure. That's why Prop 8 went down so hard, right?

11/18/2016 10:26:14 PM

That's a fair point, but it was also eight years ago, and it was in line with the national average (55-45 against gay marriage) at the time. You think it would pass again today? I sure don't.

I'll offer the counter example of Prop 19 (legalizing MJ in 2008) which was 53.5/46.5 against. Prop 64 just passed by 56%.



[Edited on November 18, 2016 at 10:49 PM. Reason : .]

11/18/2016 10:46:36 PM

Quote :

" even though their tax dollars give them the best schools, hospitals, roads, and parks. "

Californian students rank (out of the 50 states):
48th in math
49th in reading

Yet Californian teachers are paid more than teachers in any other state.

Quote :

"The state does not have plans in place to address substantial unfunded liabilities in the teachers’ pension program"

http://www.lao.ca.gov/reports/2011/calfacts/calfacts_010511.aspx

Seems to be a common trend amongst liberals... spend money you dont have on programs that don't work.

11/19/2016 12:30:13 AM

First of all, another credible citation of a more updated source you've consulted is needed, please. That link from 2011 is hilarious, considering how housing prices are sky high right now all over the state. Whoops!

CA absolutely has terrible k-12 schools, but oddly enough, it's also home of the best universities in the world, which are primarily comprised of CA residents. Weird! It's also weird how CA k-12 schools have risen a bit since 2011. Maybe it's because our economy is on fire and tax dollars are being put to good use? Again, I'd like to see something in the Trump era as a source. I'll wait

Just curious, but how do other states in the US rank? I'm especially curious about the red taker/welfare states that receive billions of dollars in aid ($16B of it coming from CA), use more food stamps than any other states, and are primarily located in the South. How do they rank?

And as for CA teacher pay? That number is pretty inflated given the seemingly high salaries of many Bay Area/LA/SD teachers. If you think Bay Area teachers are well paid, here's some light reading for you to peruse.

http://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2016/03/24/470710747/more-teachers-cant-afford-to-live-where-they-teach

http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/07/silicon-valley-housing-tough-on-teachers/399071/

http://projects.sfchronicle.com/2016/teacher-pay/




[Edited on November 19, 2016 at 1:02 AM. Reason : .]

11/19/2016 12:53:14 AM

Quote :

"That's a fair point, but it was also eight years ago, and it was in line with the national average (55-45 against gay marriage) at the time"

That's pretty much exactly our point - that California is not so different from the rest of the country in terms of the political divide. Secession doesn't get you away from all the regressive hicks. An independent California would not be liberal paradise. You'd still be dealing with the same fundamental rural/urban divide and a substantial conservative minority.

In the last 25 years, the United States has popularly elected a Republican President once. In the same span, California chose a Republican governor four times.

11/19/2016 9:53:25 AM

Quote :

"I'd like to see something in the Trump era as a source."

So a source from the future?

Quote :

"Just curious, but how do other states in the US rank? "

Probably all but one or two states ranked higher than the 49th and 48th rankings of California. But maybe you need a more current source for basic arithmetic.

11/19/2016 10:40:58 AM

^^C'mon dude, you're smarter than this. You've cherry picked one election result from 8 years ago that was in line with how the rest of the nation viewed gay marriage (a highly divisive one at the time), and you're suggesting it's a relevant example for California's current political divide, when A) it was eight freaking years ago and wouldn't pass today, and B) I already provided a counterexample that you've conveniently ignored.

Furthermore, you're also ignoring all of those ballot dozen initiatives that just passed (many of them in every single county or close to it) and that Kamala Harris swept all 58 counties despite being mega liberal and a freaking woman of color. Go back to page three and look at the county break down of how people voted and get back to me if you have any questions. If you don't like recent examples, stop using Donald Trump as one.

You are all clinging to this false equivalency of CA's and the US's political divide, and by doing so, you're creating a strawman by suggesting I'm completely denying the fact that a political divide exists in the first place. I've already acknowledged the political divide that exists, and I've already stated that the entire crux of this independence movement is based on compromise. I'll repost this again:

Quote :

""High-level beliefs 1. California is a diverse place and has widely divergent views on a range of issues. Our Party and the political structures we advocate post-independence should reflect that. 2. We believe that unless there is a compelling reason for something to be decided nationally or regionally it should be decided at the most local level possible. 3. The default should always be that a more local government can overrule higher levels unless a power has been explicitly delegated to the higher body. 4. In cases where there is a compelling reason for regional or national planning, we need more effective tools in place to facilitate it. 5. We believe the American two-party system is fundamentally undemocratic and want to ensure that California does not duplicate that system."

^
The study and data he posted was from 2011 and is a joke- read the part about housing costs for a good laugh. California's k-12 schools suck ass, but they have all actually improved since 2011. By "Trump" Era, I mean the one we're living in now (the year 2016), even if he's only president elect.

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/articles/how-states-compare

Hmm. CA is #3 on that list. I guess rich school districts have top tier schools, while poor ones have bottom dwellers. It still doesn't quite explain the UC population of in-state schools though...

https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-the-best-schools/5335/

And yep, just like I thought, CA isn't 49th in reading anymore (45th is still shameful though), but two of the biggest welfare red states in the country are right behind it.






[Edited on November 19, 2016 at 11:27 AM. Reason : .]

11/19/2016 10:59:46 AM

The reading scores are out of context because you are grading ESL students' reading skills with a test that is in English. The fact that we rank ahead of English first language students in places like Mississippi (or whoever is behind us) is the real tragedy.

Quote :

"The irony here is that thanks to fracking the US has reduced their CO2 emissions year over year. Something Europe hasn't been able to manage. All the while maintaining historically low energy prices. Certainly one of the triumphs of the Obama Admin. And it's quite telling that you don't seem to differentiate between alarmist global warming and climate change, especially when claiming that there's a consensus."

OMG this one gets me everytime.

If we passed our destination and need to turn around, easing off the accelerator a little each minute is still going to take you further away from your destination. Fracking is part of the problem, not part of the solution. Blindly cutting emissions doesn't work. There are actual targets involved. We can't come up short.

There is a consensus but science doesn't stop, its continuously updated with new research and data. UJUSTWAIT seems to be operating off of older (but not incorrect) information. 10+ years ago the term global warming was a lot more common and sea level rise had been the main concern but now we know sea level rise is the least of our associated concerns and global climate change (caused by melting ice (caused by warming)) is a grave concern along with ocean acidification.

[Edited on November 19, 2016 at 12:22 PM. Reason : k]

11/19/2016 12:21:20 PM

Quote :

"The reading scores are out of context because you are grading ESL students' reading skills with a test that is in English. The fact that we rank ahead of English first language students in places like Mississippi (or whoever is behind us) is the real tragedy. "

I completely agree. It's a good thing that the bilingual educational ballot proposition passed by 72% of voters and in all 58 counties.

11/19/2016 12:52:41 PM

Ah yes, Mexico 2.0, welcoming in illegal immigrants that won't assimilate, and then relying on the rest of the country to foot the ESL bill.

Quote :

"CA absolutely has terrible k-12 schools, but oddly enough, it's also home of the best universities in the world,"

Which, besides UCLA, are all private institutions.

Yes there are isolated rich areas... and they are all full of leftists calling Trump's wall "xenophobic" as they live in their all-white gated communities, but outside of those it is a shit hole of segregated cities of immigrants that have only assimilated into the welfare state.

A #Calexit would be amazing, as it would prove how self-destructive leftist policies are... but again, it would only buy us a hundred years at best, as California would just become Mexico 2.0 and then it would happen all over again.


Edit: Wait... I'm confused, I just read that dumbass calexit link and it makes my case for me:

Quote :

"when you consider that California’s infrastructure is falling apart, our public schools are ranked among the worst in the entire country, we have the highest number of homeless persons living without shelter and other basic necessities, poverty rates remain high, income inequality continues to expand, and we must often borrow money from the future to provide services for today, now is not the time for charity."

[Edited on November 19, 2016 at 11:09 PM. Reason : rip]

11/19/2016 11:05:03 PM

Yeah, UC Berkeley is totally a private school. So is UCSD, UC Davis, and UC Irvine.

Anymore links from 2011 you'd like me to debunk?

11/20/2016 1:13:12 PM

Quote :

"Yeah, UC Berkeley is totally a private school. So is UCSD, UC Davis, and UC Irvine."

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/top-public

So... Berkeley, UCLA, and UCSB are all in the top 10 of public universities in the nation. (not sure when that website was published... probably within the last 2 years)

Just to keep this thread alive...

11/20/2016 7:12:29 PM

Quote :

"California is doing itself zero favors by shutting down it's nuclear power plants."

Yeah, no. The vast majority of Californians live in places that are seismically active (i.e on the San Andrea fault). We don't want to have to deal with what Japan has to if we can help it.

11/21/2016 7:51:53 PM

Quote :

"That's a fair point, but it was also eight years ago, and it was in line with the national average (55-45 against gay marriage) at the time. You think it would pass again today? I sure don't."

Which is ironic, because blacks and Latinos - who are increasingly who the Democratic Party is catering to, especially in California - are more religious on average than whites in the U.S.

California implemented the Top Two System which is going to make the Republicans little more than the Greens or Libertarians in a lot of electoral races around the state. They had two Democrats fight for the Senate seat to replace Barbara Boxer earlier this month, and in 2018 it looks like there'll be a much more volatile race for the governor and Senate seat as well, so the progressive and more moderate-minded wings of the California Democratic Party will become the two de facto parties in the state moving forward. But which one of these two wings will support "Calexit", it'd have to be the progressives right?

[Edited on November 21, 2016 at 9:58 PM. Reason : /]

11/21/2016 9:53:46 PM

I don't see anyone seriously challenging Gavin Newsome for Governor- he's been groomed for the part. Am I missing something?

At any rate, the CNP is the only political party in CA right now that's planning on running members in local offices that actually support #calexit. Democrats aren't exactly taking them seriously yet, but I guess we shall see. You'd be surprised how many people I know that are sick of both Dems and Repubs in CA and now that Bernie isn't an option, they want out and won't support Dems anymore unless they have to.

11/22/2016 12:05:23 AM

Quote :

"Yeah, UC Berkeley is totally a private school. So is UCSD, UC Davis, and UC Irvine."

You said best "in the world", not "ranked in the top 50 nationally at some point in time". There is a difference. If you want to look at it globally, then you can argue private universities like Stanford are there, not the others.

Quote :

"Anymore links from 2011 you'd like me to debunk?"

You critiqued the data as being old, then confirmed I was right, that k-12 is dogshit. If that counts as "debunking" you need to try harder.

The k-12 failures are easy to predict when you welcome in peasant-class anchor babies that require ESL to overburden schools. Inflating teacher salaries can't compensate for such reckless disrespect of immigration laws. The rich Californians don't see this though, they just get a cheaper maids and drive their prius to private schools. But hey, anything for more votes.

11/22/2016 12:46:01 AM

Uh, Stanford, Caltech, UC Berkley, and UCLA are world renowned universities. The UC system is absolutely world class, and I doubt your dumbass get into any of them. Even UC Merced would a be a reach for you, dipshit.

You don't know fuck all about CA, so why don't you go back to posting those awesome "drain the swamp" memes you thought were so clever a week ago.

[Edited on November 22, 2016 at 1:12 AM. Reason : .]

11/22/2016 1:12:12 AM

Stanford and Caltech are private, but I see your point. CA has colleges

It also has:

illegal immigration by the millions
dogshit k-12 education
unsustainable state debt (liberals, lol)
below average infrastructure (especially considering all the debt)
homelessness crisis
absurd taxes and regulations

The one thing it doesn't have, besides immigration laws, is a middle class. Which is pouring out of the state. I only hope we can pursue a #Calexit in time to wall it off, and quarantine Mexico 2.0 before the cancer of liberalism spreads further.

Quote :

"You don't know fuck all about CA"

I live in LA. lol

[Edited on November 22, 2016 at 2:37 AM. Reason : .]

11/22/2016 2:30:55 AM

^ and they're all moving to Colorado

By the way, this is one problem with any national popular vote plan. We're now 2 weeks after the election, and California are still counting votes. I've been keeping a spreadsheet updating results of all candidates in all states since the election ended. California has been a steady drip since the election ended. And this is not some small drip of say 1000 votes here and there, this is a much larger vote percentage that would require calling a plumber. We're not talking about canvassing and correcting vote totals for errors and such, we're talking counting votes for the very first time. They haven't even made it to counting write-ins yet. God forbid the state ever has to be part of a national recount or (under the current election system) the result is up in the air, the state election infrastructure would crumble.

[Edited on November 22, 2016 at 8:38 AM. Reason : .]

11/22/2016 8:27:15 AM

How did this thread go from "California isn't appropriately represented in politics and should secede from the union" and "That argument is flawed for reasons A-Z"??

To

"California is awesome, fuck you!" and "nuh uh, California is crappy, FUCK YOU!"

11/22/2016 7:07:03 PM

The Soap Box isnt really known for it's intellectual prowess.

11/22/2016 9:30:34 PM

493000 votes were added yesterday evening.

11/23/2016 7:29:15 AM

LOL it's close to 2M votes now and growing.

More and more evidence about how fucked up the American election/voting systems are, and yet some people still see no problem with the EC because they're happy HRC lost.

I'm out.

[Edited on November 23, 2016 at 8:03 PM. Reason : .]

11/23/2016 8:02:48 PM

2 cities that inflate their populations with immigrants do not get to dictate how the rest of the states live, sorry.

"But we imported X million immigrants dependent on big gov, we should get more representation since we ignore immigration laws" - California

11/23/2016 9:34:39 PM

Quote :

"some people still see no problem with the EC because they're happy HRC lost"

it's equally true that some people see a huge problem with the EC because they're unhappy HRC lost



Will you just say that you're unhappy with how this whole thing turned out, and that you WISH CA could secede under the fantasy conditions that you've [http://www.yescalifornia.org] proposed?
We can flame you for that, but it's at least logical, and sensible.

11/23/2016 11:19:32 PM

Have I not said so already?

Yes, I am completely unhappy with how Donald Trump became president and I wish CA would leave the US to form its own sovereign nation for reasons that go beyond the Electoral College. I agree with some of the "Yes, California" platform, but my values are far more in line with the California National Party. And yes, I realize how unlikely I am to get my wish.

11/25/2016 12:50:18 PM

Do you have any actual legitimate criticisms of Trump policies? If so do any of them warrant leaving the US?

Would protectionist trade policies, pro 2nd amendment justices, and enforcement of immigration law be enough to warrant succession?

Or are you, like all SJWs, overreacting, throwing a hissy-fit temper tantrum, because the best candidate the DNC could muster was a corrupt puppet only gullible hacks would be excited about?

Maybe you should focus your butt-hurt towards the DNC corruption, aka why you lost.

[Edited on November 25, 2016 at 1:00 PM. Reason : .]

11/25/2016 12:59:31 PM

Trump's policies? All of them? I can't think of a single policy he's proposed that is going to make America a better country. He's a complete idiot, with zero political experience, and he's done the exact opposite of "draining the swamp" by surrounding himself with his billionaire friends and extremists. I'm beyond horrified at his choices for cabinet so far. DeVos and Sessions are frightening .He hasn't even left Mar Del Lago and his administration is already an international laughingstock .It's not even a question of whether his administration is going to be a disaster or not; it's just a matter of how big of smoldering crater he's going to leave behind afterwards.

And no, I'm not throwing a hissy fit that Hillary didn't win. I was never a huge fan of hers, despite being a much better choice than Trump, overall.

I'm pretty much done with the DNC right now, other than people like Elizabeth Warren. It's a complete shitshow and unless they can become the party that represents truly progressive values, they're not getting a dime from me, nor any of my votes.

I have a hard time believing you that you actually live in LA to be quite honest. Why would you willingly move to a place that is filled with so many of the types of people you love to ridicule? Makes no sense to me.

11/25/2016 2:53:44 PM

All of them? Term limits are bad?

11/25/2016 3:18:26 PM

You think career Washington politicians will agree to term limits just because Donald Trump becomes president? I sure don't.

11/25/2016 3:22:21 PM

you said all of trump's policies

11/25/2016 3:35:18 PM

Quote :

" I can't think of a single policy he's proposed that is going to make America a better country"

I still can't think of any. Sorry

11/25/2016 3:47:20 PM

At least JCE and Earl are just trolling. UJustWait84 is actually serious.

11/25/2016 5:48:57 PM

I am 100% serious. Pretty shocking to some people, I'm sure. But I'm definitely not the only person that feels this way.

11/25/2016 6:22:48 PM

Again, I asked you which of Trump's policies are so "bad" that you think it merits Cali leaving the USA.

And, not surprisingly, you don't have an answer.

All you have is the same old character attacks that the media has spoon-fed you since Trump started running. So as much as I love the idea of quarantining the cancer that is California, let's recognize that this isn't a serious idea, and let's call this thread what it really is:

A childish temper tantrum

[Edited on November 25, 2016 at 6:24 PM. Reason : .]

11/25/2016 6:24:17 PM

I'm not going to waste my time and compile a list of all the terrible ideas Donald Trump has for the United States. There's already a 10+ page thread about his credibility and a 4+ page thread about his shitty cabinet prospects.

I've been pretty clear about why my values don't align with much of the US anymore, so you can either go back and re-read all of my posts and links to various sources I've included, or bow out of this thread. Nobody is forcing you to post here, and honestly the name calling doesn't bother me either. You're subhuman as far as I'm concerned, and I hope you enjoy the horrific consequences that will ensue once Trump and his sycophants take the reigns.

11/25/2016 6:30:45 PM

You continue to prove my point for me.

-You can't name one "bad" policy that explains such a hissy fit
-You resort to character attacks because that's all you have

11/25/2016 6:47:48 PM

I asked my SIL (who lives in Cali) about this during Thanksgiving. She is the super liberal type who took it as a personal attack that Hillary was not elected. Even she thought Calexit was a fantastical idea with no real grounding in reality. She did however use many of the same illogical arguments that UJustWait84 is using in this thread. So it's good to know that the California propaganda machine is hard at work in that state.

11/28/2016 12:37:40 PM

I don't feel like Hillary losing was a personal attack against me, but I do think the EC needs to go, and that Donald Trump is an incompetent idiot who's going to fuck things up for America rather quickly.

11/28/2016 2:14:38 PM

Enforcing immigration laws = "fucking things up" when you're a leftist trying to import a dependent victim class for votes.

Fuck the electoral college, our states irresponsibly allowed millions of illegal immigrants into our state! we deserve more votes because of it!

11/28/2016 2:46:36 PM

http://www.fox5ny.com/news/220448846-story

You'll soon need to give out more money to the poor so they can afford more expensive milk, because of laws like this.

11/30/2016 2:35:58 PM

Nah. SV/SF food engineers are pretty close to being able to culture lots of different foods in labs.

11/30/2016 3:46:52 PM

Didnt the Onion already do an article about this?

11/30/2016 4:15:36 PM

Quote :

"you'll soon need to give out more money to the poor so they can afford more expensive milk, because of laws like this."

More regulations, more taxes, what could possibly go wrong? *STATE DEBT DOUBLES, liberals pat themselves on the back for spending money they don't have and passing the buck to future generations doomed to answer for their reckless morale posturing with other people's money*

12/1/2016 2:01:59 AM

Lovely word salad you've assembled there JCE. How's that swamp draining going in DC going right now? California has plenty of its own billionaires, so if shit hits the fan following a progressive Scandinavian/Euro model for the economy, they can just make California Great Again and ask Larry Ellison to do what Trump promises.

[Edited on December 1, 2016 at 11:11 AM. Reason : .]

12/1/2016 11:11:02 AM

[Edited on December 2, 2016 at 7:56 PM. Reason : derp]

12/2/2016 7:55:22 PM

https://twitter.com/VicenteFoxQue/status/802942162803359744

I missed this last week, but still funny.

[Edited on December 2, 2016 at 7:57 PM. Reason : .]

12/2/2016 7:56:20 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/03/opinion/sunday/why-blue-states-are-the-real-tea-party.html?smid=pl-share&_r=0

12/5/2016 7:43:53 PM