Quote :

"Even knowing that locke went out of sight, the smoke monster appeared and left, then Alex appeared and disappeared, then Locke returns a few minutes later? It's certainly not concrete, but I think it lends one to believe (especially now that we're being led to believe that this is not Locke, but the guy at the beginning in the form of Locke) that Locke and smokey and alex were not there at the same time because they're the same entity. Well at least Alex and Locke. I mean how many shape shifters can there be? "

OK, so I just thought about the Dead is Dead scene where Ben summons the Monster, who doesn't come. Instead, Locke comes walking out of the jungle. I'm on board now.

5/14/2009 8:49:22 PM

seriously, i called that shit weeks ago, and no one believed me.

5/14/2009 8:50:03 PM

yeah a few people talked about that when it happened...

5/14/2009 8:51:29 PM

Well I knew it wasn't the "real" Locke -- that was obvious. I was just unsure about him being Smokey/Man #2, but that makes pretty decent sense.

^ Yeah, I was one of them. But no one was saying then that Smokey was Man #2, Jacob's arch-rival. I said earlier that I was kind of leaning in that direction. Remembering the above scene just connected the dots for me.

[Edited on May 14, 2009 at 8:53 PM. Reason : GET OFF OF MY CLOUD]

5/14/2009 8:52:09 PM

i wasn't sure if it was the "real" locke or not but i was sure that he was doing all of the things that happened when he was gone.

5/14/2009 8:53:00 PM

i'm totally on board with jacob's nemesis being the real inhabitant of the cabin since at least season 3, but..

if jacob's nemesis is also the smoke monster, and he's supposedly being held in the cabin, how is it that the smoke monster is free to traverse the island? that leads me to believe the two are not the same.

if that's the case, then the smoke monster must be a servant of some sort jacob's nemesis, right? i wish i had the time to go back and rewatch all the earlier seasons with this new knowledge.

pretty cool that the losties could, at any time, have gone up to the Foot and perhaps seen jacob just chilling on the beach.

5/14/2009 8:58:43 PM

I'm glad that jacob is just a normal guy and not all the scary crap from season 2.

5/14/2009 9:00:36 PM

finally, i propose that the official nomenclature for post-death Season 5 locke be Un-Locke (teehee).

5/14/2009 9:07:51 PM

also, jacob touches sayid's shoulder right after his fiance/wife gets hit.

5/14/2009 9:09:13 PM

Quote :

"I have to imagine he made contact with all of those people to cause something. "

For all the people Jacob touched, weren't those the ones that traveled back in time? I guess Locke didn't make it, but who knows?

5/14/2009 9:12:40 PM

Locke was dead... what about Rose, Bernard, Neal and all those other people who were killed on the beach?

[Edited on May 14, 2009 at 9:15 PM. Reason : fdsf]

5/14/2009 9:14:30 PM

i think we've yet to see what the touches signify, but i definitely think they're important. i think jacob might've even brought locke back to life after his fall.

a cool thing to also think about is how jacob "gives" items to several of the losties--kate, jack, hurley, sawyer--and then relate that to the biblical story of jacob and esau:

Quote :

"According to the Talmud, immediately after Abraham died, Jacob prepared a lentil stew as a traditional mourner's meal for his father, Isaac.[6] The Hebrew Bible states that Esau, returning famished from the fields, begged Jacob to give him some of the stew. (Esau referred to the dish as, "that red, red stuff", giving rise to his nickname, Hebrew: ????? (`Edom, meaning "Red").) Jacob offered to give Esau a bowl of stew in exchange for his birthright (the right to be recognized as firstborn), and Esau agrees; the Talmudic dating indicates both men were 15 at the time."

5/14/2009 9:18:39 PM

Can someone recap for me everything illana's team did before they were on the island. Like when they captured miles etc...

Also its weird that they did a juliet recap without jacob even weirder since she wasn't on 815.

5/14/2009 9:46:05 PM

they just did Juliet's recap to show her parents getting divorced so she could use the same line on Sawyer ("sometimes people aren't meant to be together" or whatever)

Quote :

"what about Rose, Bernard, Neal and all those other people who were killed on the beach?"

Rose and Bernard never died. they just got separated from the group

5/14/2009 9:52:30 PM

yeah but they all travelled into the past. I was refering to the person who said the people who travelled to the past were the ones that jacob touched.

oh i mean rose, bernard AND the other people who were killed on the beach as in rose and bernard weren't killed on the beach.

[Edited on May 14, 2009 at 9:58 PM. Reason : blah]

5/14/2009 9:57:21 PM

Quote :

"Can someone recap for me everything illana's team did before they were on the island. Like when they captured miles etc..."

Ilana was in a hospital at some point and was visited by Jacob, Bram snagged Miles, Ilana met and arrested Sayid, Caesar said sup to Jack at the airport.

I think that's about it.

5/14/2009 10:46:31 PM

I don't really count cesar, but thanks. I thought there was more but i guess not

5/14/2009 10:51:03 PM

I'm assuming the van in last night's episode is the one Hurley finds 30 years later and the dead worker was Sayid (I believe the dead guy's patch said "Horace"). Wasn't there a whole ton of beer in there?

Oh, and was just thinking about our theory earlier that smokey could only inhabit folks who died on the island. Then I remembered Walt from the S3 finale motivating Locke to get off his shot ass.

5/14/2009 11:21:54 PM

^ dead worker was Ben's dad that Ben abandoned and killed during the purge.

5/14/2009 11:29:43 PM

The dead Dharma worker was Ben's dad, no mystery there.

5/14/2009 11:30:01 PM

Im still confused... What was the plan? How was detonating a hydrogen bomb near the "pocket of energy" supposed to reset everything?

5/14/2009 11:39:34 PM

No Swan Station -> no button -> no Desmond -> no failsafe -> no 815 crash -> no island adventures

I'm not really sure what the bomb itself was supposed to do. Maybe No Swan Station should be No Incident.

5/14/2009 11:41:57 PM

Well that's simple. You see people are the variables. And variables are what change things. Thus people could change things by doing things. Like blowing up a bomb. And....uhh....yeah.

That's about as much explanation as they gave.

5/14/2009 11:42:51 PM

^^^it was going to destroy the energy or something like that...but the end result was that there would never have to be anyone pushing a button every 108 minutes, so no one to miss pushing the button, and let the shit go crazy and pull the plane down

[Edited on May 14, 2009 at 11:43 PM. Reason : ^^yeah what he said]

5/14/2009 11:43:01 PM

Quote :

"I'm assuming the van in last night's episode is the one Hurley finds 30 years later and the dead worker was Sayid (I believe the dead guy's patch said "Horace"). Wasn't there a whole ton of beer in there?"

They had more than one van, theres not too much significance in which van is which...

Maybe if there was some damage to it from the incident it would be more significant as to which van was which (read: something they actually planned)

[Edited on May 14, 2009 at 11:48 PM. Reason : ]

5/14/2009 11:47:26 PM

So they thought by creating a paradox they would all suddenly teleport back onto their flight and land peacefully as strangers?

And can they even create paradoxs? Like Ben, he survived. Even if they did create a paradox wouldnt that just fuck things up, like create a black hole or end the world somehow? wtf

5/14/2009 11:50:38 PM

I think its pretty clear that you can't change the past. Were you listening to what miles said at the end? Everytime they've tried to change something they have failed. They only scene we've seen of anyone trying to change anything in the past that hasn't immediately failed or caused the very thing that they were trying to prevent was daniel talking to desmond.

5/14/2009 11:53:29 PM

you can't really prove yet that they haven't been able to change anything

Sawyer said he could have gone back to the states and stopped his father from killing his mom and himself...but he chose not to. It wasn't that he couldn't...he just decided that he didn't want to...

5/15/2009 12:01:37 AM

For example, sayid trying to kill ben, caused him to lose his innocence. Nothing they have done so far has changed anything we learned about the history of the island, and what we have learned has just reinforced the things that were already in place. All of their interactions can be seen in previous seasons, richard going to visit locke because of what locke told him in the 50s etc. Not all of them were conscious attempts to change the future, but no one has done anything up to this point that has changed anything in any way.

[Edited on May 15, 2009 at 12:11 AM. Reason : ]

5/15/2009 12:08:36 AM

Keep in mind that Desmond's experiences have shown that things can be changed slightly, but the eventual outcome is the same (he prevented Charlie from dying the first few times, but Charlie still ultimately died. Also the dude with the red shoes got crushed by the bricks when he was talking to Eloise in that one episode)


I also read somewhere a small thing that might have some significance. When Hurley was checking out of the jail and getting his possessions back, everything he got back was something that Jacob had given to other survivors. His bag had some cash in it (Jacob bought the lunchbox for Kate), a pen (Jacob gave the pen to Sawyer), and candy (that he gave to Jack after the operation).

5/15/2009 12:13:01 AM

Thats a different issue though. I believe the island needed charlie to die after his purpose was fulfilled. In the same way that Micheal could not kill himself & the accident happened right before jack jumped off the bridge. Desmond seeing charlie die in the future and trying to stop it is much different than desmond going 30 years into the past and trying to prevent charlie from being born AFTER they have already met in the first place. That is what creates the timelapse paradox.

[Edited on May 15, 2009 at 12:18 AM. Reason : ]

5/15/2009 12:17:03 AM

yeah, we really don't know for sure that nothing is changing. I'm not 100% convinced that they can't/haven't changed anything. We just know that they haven't changed any big things.

Quote :

"Desmond seeing charlie die in the future and trying to stop it is much different than desmond going 30 years into the past and trying to prevent charlie from being born AFTER they have already met in the first place."

Maybe. One of the big themes of the show is destiny vs. free will. Taking that view really champions the destiny side of the issue.

How did Desmond see multiple possible deaths for Charlie? Was that ever explained? It's not because he sees the future. It was because he'd experienced it before right? Or had some memory of it in his sleep. Kinda like when Farraday told him to find his mother and then he woke up in the future and remembered it like it actually happened to him? And while he didn't prevent Charlies death, he did change it. Which led to Charlie interacting with people and perhaps impacting people in ways that he wouldn't have otherwise.

I'm fairly certain that at some point with the rat experiments, Farraday suggested that there were multiple possible futures. And that's why he needed the coordinates, to get it to the right future. I can't this for sure because I don't really remember when that was. But maybe I'll try to find it this weekend. Those episodes with Desmond going back and forth do a decent job of illustrating how the memories interact (replace each other/merge). It's not spelled out but it starts with Desmond not recognizing Sayid or Daniel. And then slowly, as he bounces back and forth and finds his "constant", he's able to sort of merge everything together from both times and begins to remember them and knows what he needs to do from one time to the other. I wish I could remember what the catalyst was for him going back and forth to begin with, anyone remember?

Also, while it was repeated that "what happened happened", it was repeated that it is their present moving into their future. Getting shot meant getting shot etc. Assuming I'm right about Daniel saying there are multiple futures, why wouldn't that apply to those who went to the past but were still living their present and future? Did they give up the chance of multiple futures? Maybe, I don't really know. Maybe they're just stuck repeating the same old track.

But, taking all of that into consideration and looking at it from a slightly different angle, I think it may be possible for them to change things... in a round about way.

Let's say you have time as a string. people from 2007 go back to 1974, they can't change anything that happened before that and maybe they can't change what happened on the string of time they originated from. But maybe they can create a new string that is just slightly off (let's say 1degree). So they're not changing anything major, just slight things that maybe after many iterations (loops) add up to a significant difference. Or shit, maybe they can change something big. Either way, the result though is that the original string does not change. There is just a new path that exists.

So in that sense, Daniel going back won't change anything for the Eloise and Whidmore that sent him back. But he (or any of those who traveled back) could initiate a new string/branch, or could influence the Eloise and whidmore that he encountered after going back in time to do things slightly different than what those on the original string had done, thus creating a variation of the string. The folks on the original string/branch who did not travel back would not experience any change. But those who traveled back would create a alternate string for the people who originate there while living on that string themselves.




It could also be seen as tying into the conversation Jacob and the other guy had at the beginning of the finale. Guy 2 talked about how they always come and do the same thing, why even deal with that at all? yada yada yada. Jacob says something to the effect of "yeah, but it's progress." IT's certainly a stretch of the imagination, but maybe they're reliving the same thing over and over and things are just slightly changing (thus the progress remark).

And I know it may seem a little out there. This is just theory/possibility talk though. But i think the changing time part of it makes sense with what they've given us. I'm not saying it's what's happening or what's going to happen. I'm don't even think I would like it as a climax if it turned out to b the case. I just think it's something I would accept with the rules they've given us so far.


Ultimately though, i think Desmond or at least the way he was traveling in time will be factor in the show. If not, I'll be disappointed.

[Edited on May 15, 2009 at 1:39 AM. Reason : img]

5/15/2009 1:20:18 AM

Quote :

"if jacob's nemesis is also the smoke monster, and he's supposedly being held in the cabin, how is it that the smoke monster is free to traverse the island? that leads me to believe the two are not the same. "

So the dude was bound to the cabin via the "ash", right? Well lets say he can't go outside the ash but can alter into a spirit, pick up that ash so it surrounds him and bam: smoke monster.

Though I have no idea why he would ever go back to the cabin. Whatever, it's just an idea...

5/15/2009 9:21:24 AM

Quote :

"So they thought by creating a paradox they would all suddenly teleport back onto their flight and land peacefully as strangers? And can they even create paradoxs? "

IF they can change the past, and thus create a paradox where the plane never crashes, there will be no teleporting back to the future. Most likely, as soon as the event in 1977 occurs that prevents the future crash, then the 1977 versions of the people will simply disappear from 1977. They won't "go anywhere", i.e. they won't skip through time or space with memories and body in tact, they will just cease to exist in 1977.

Then you could pick up their stories at any time in the future - 2004, 2008, 2010, etc. And all of their stories will include something like "Oceanic Flight 815? Yeah, we had a great time in Australia, the flight was perfect, and now i'm going about the rest of my life and I don't know anybody else who was on that plane."

5/15/2009 9:25:24 AM

Quote :

"When Hurley was checking out of the jail and getting his possessions back, everything he got back was something that Jacob had given to other survivors. His bag had some cash in it (Jacob bought the lunchbox for Kate), a pen (Jacob gave the pen to Sawyer), and candy (that he gave to Jack after the operation)."

Dude, nice find. That's pretty interesting, I may have to go back and watch that scene.

5/15/2009 9:30:02 AM

besides being "huh, that's interesting, i guess", i'm not sure what possible significance that could have

5/15/2009 9:37:20 AM

There's no way the island will ever let that happen ^^^

[Edited on May 15, 2009 at 9:39 AM. Reason : 2]

5/15/2009 9:38:56 AM

i agree, but if it could happen, I think that's how it would go down

5/15/2009 9:54:54 AM

I don't see why they couldn't be Desmond'd as suggested before.

I think that's the most tidy solution to everything.

5/15/2009 9:56:31 AM

Well, he's gotta do something, since we haven't seen him in awhile. I know he vowed never to leave Penny, but I guess he could just bring the bitch to the island.

5/15/2009 10:08:23 AM

No, I meant

Quote :

"Maybe the bomb does enough damage to release it and they are sent around in time just as Desmond was?"

5/15/2009 10:15:38 AM

alright guys, take a break already. you have like 7 more months to talk through this

5/15/2009 10:17:28 AM

then won't they need to find their "constants" to avoid dying.

5/15/2009 10:47:32 AM

Quote :

"Maybe if there was some damage to it from the incident it would be more significant as to which van was which (read: something they actually planned) "

it was made clear as day that it was Ben's dad. His dad was an alcoholic and in the scene where ben kills his dad it shows him with all the beer in the van.

also, to make it even more clear the name on the shirt said roger which is ben's dad's name and it said workman which was ben's dad's role.

they clearly had that interaction planned for one season out.

but i guess when can continue to act like its open for debate.

5/15/2009 11:16:59 AM

Yeah i was beginning to think that maybe they would be desmonded if they were able to change the past then they would be unstuck in time and be able to predict certain events in the future since the circumstances of their current existence have been erased.

[Edited on May 15, 2009 at 11:39 AM. Reason : current]

5/15/2009 11:39:35 AM

The only thing I'm curious of is this. Out of place people appearing in impossible places make me wonder if only Un-Locke can take other forms or whether (I'm voting for this one) Jacob can also take other forms to push the Losties towards a more positive direction.


On Island
-In the season 1 lost shorts, I remember Christian in a scene petting Vincent.
-Christian appears to Sun, Lapides (sp?), Claire, Locke, Miles and Michael. (Can't remember if it was on or off that Michael and Miles saw Christian.)
-Season ? walt shows up talking backwards when Boone's sister runs into the jungle before getting shot.
-Hurley's buddy from the nuthouse (definitely impersonated by Un-Locke) tried to get him to jump off a cliff (makes me think Hurley has a huge part to play in the coming season [also receiving the guitar from Jacob and the large amount of camara time the case has received])
-Boone speaking about ???? falls down the stairs, ???? falls up the stairs to Locke.
-Yemi in Eko's dream telling him he must ?repent?.
-Yemi speaking to Eko (not the time in the dream) but in the jungle before he's killed by the smoke monster. (Obviously Un-Locke)
-Ben's daughter beneath the temple. (Obviously Un-Locke)
-Horace appeared to Locke in a dream as he was building the cabin.


Off Island
-Christian going to Jack in the hospital.
-Libby appears ot Michael in the hospital after he tries to kill himself by wrecking his car.
-Charlie coming back to Hurley several times (I think it would be Jacob using that form, unless Hurley can actually talk to dead people and it wasn't just Jacob trying to make Hurley think he was special.)
-Libby going to Hurley.
-Ana Lucia going to Hurley.

That's all I can think about off the top of my head. Asides from the possibility of Jacob being able to take other forms, is there a limitation to Un-Locke taking other forms? Can he only do it on the island? Bet Christian steps in as the good-side Billybadass for Jacob.

[Edited on May 15, 2009 at 4:12 PM. Reason : blah]

[Edited on May 15, 2009 at 4:17 PM. Reason : asdfawefa]

5/15/2009 4:05:19 PM

I assumed everything on island was his attempt at manipulating people to kill jacob because he physically couldn't. I'm not sure if anything off island was actually Unlocke. Its obvious with ben that at least one of the things that he "went through to get here" was getting ben in a position to be willing to kill him, of course this is enhanced by jacob's ignoring him, but he also had to trick Locke into killing himself and then keep travel of all of the times that he would time travel to ensure that everything went according to his plan for locke to die and be transported back to the island so that Unlocke could become the Unleader.



Other thing i'm wondering is assuming Christian is actually Unchristian what were his intentions with Claire? Does the christian part of him want to keep her safe from whatever the tension between him and jacob could unhearl?

[Edited on May 15, 2009 at 4:24 PM. Reason : ]

5/15/2009 4:22:11 PM

not going to read through and see if this has already been mentioned but interestingly enough, one of yahoo's top 5 searches this week has been "Jacob and Esau's"

5/15/2009 5:08:56 PM

speaking of Claire..... think she'll be back in S6?

5/15/2009 6:22:38 PM

there's one piece I keep going back to from S4 where Michael was back in NYC and kept trying to kill himself but couldn't. When Tom met him in the alley, he kinda just sat there laughing while Michael had a gun to his head and kept pulling the trigger, which makes me wonder how Tom was so confident it wouldn't go off. Did he have some explicit knowledge that Michael was alive in the future, thus nothing he could do would result in his death? I think that was in late 2004 IIRC and, funny enough, he died before Michael.

5/15/2009 6:33:22 PM