Hahaha you know what, it's actually kind of the funny. The writers have basically put the audience into the same position as the Losties. We're all trying to decide between faith and science as the ultimate explanation for everything that's happened on the show, and you know what, I don't think we're ever going to get a straight answer

5/12/2010 9:21:39 AM

Some interesting info about the game they were playing:

Quote :

"Senet, a board game from predynastic and ancient Egypt. The oldest hieroglyph representing a Senet game dates to circa 3100 BC. ... Senet may be the oldest board game in the world. It has been found in Predynastic and First Dynasty burials of Egypt,[2] circa 3500 BC and 3100 BC respectively. By the time of the New Kingdom in Egypt (1567–1085 BC), it had become a kind of talisman for the journey of the dead. Because of the element of luck in the game and the Egyptian belief in determinism, it was believed that a successful player was under the protection of the major gods of the national pantheon: Ra, Thoth, and sometimes Osiris. Consequently, Senet boards were often placed in the grave alongside other useful objects for the dangerous journey through the afterlife and the game is referred to in Chapter XVII of the Book of the Dead. The game was also adopted in the Levant and as far as Cyprus and Crete but with apparently less religious significance. ... The actual rules of the game are a topic of some debate, although historians have made educated guesses."

So it looks like the game is old enough to the point that nobody in modern times knows for sure the rules of the game... yet MiB knew them somehow.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senet

[Edited on May 12, 2010 at 9:47 AM. Reason : ]

5/12/2010 9:26:13 AM

I was kinda pissed that they didn't explain how the "Mother" had powers. She kept saying that she made it so Jacob and MiB couldn't kill each other and would live forever. Evidently she, like Jacob now, can grant immortality. (most likely has something to do with the "Source")

Also in the scene in the bottom of the well it looked as if she just floated down to the bottom to confront MiB (she made no noise on the ladder). When MiB woke up from being knocked out the well was filled with dirt, not collapsed, and an entire village was killed. She had to have some powers similar to Smokey or some other godlike powers.

Unfortunately, we will never know.

5/12/2010 10:14:29 AM

^I think those hints along with the other hints that someone else pointed out are clue enough that she was in fact the Smoke Monster. Also, in the first few seasons, people referred to the smoke monster as "a security device"... a security device to protect the source of the island's power maybe?

5/12/2010 10:18:29 AM

I think we can throw out any assumptions based on seasons 1-2 out the window. They've said in multiple interviews that they didn't really nail down any of this Jacob/MiB/smoke monster shit until sometime between seasons 2-3.

5/12/2010 10:33:50 AM

I don't know if I can agree that she was "the" smoke monster. The current smoke monster wants to leave the island; if Mother was the smoke monster then why would it want to leave the island now?

I can buy into the theory that there are more than one smoke monster. She seemed to know that something bad would happen if you went to the Source, and it looked as if the Source turned MiB into Smokey. What if Mother was turned into a Smokey when/if she went into it.

Also the way she was killed could support her being a smoke monster. She was killed without being spoken to with the same dagger that MiB/Dogan wanted Richard/Sayid to use on Jacob/MiB.

I personally don't think that we will find out the answer to this one. Damn it, I think watching this show it making me dumber.


[Edited on May 12, 2010 at 10:44 AM. Reason : .]

5/12/2010 10:35:58 AM

I thought the answers were completely sufficient, at least for me. I actually really liked the episode and I actually thought the light thing was kinda cool. And I was thinking what a poster said on the previous page at first, that it might be the Fountain of Youth, since the "mother" said that many people would be looking for it and it seems to be able to grant eternal life or some sort of power (but this would not explain why it turned Jacob's brother into the smoke monster and would not explain why it's so important to keep the light on, so I don't really think it is). Metaphorically, though, the light is the proverbial forbidden fruit--this is why Jacob's "mother" tells him that there is a little of that light in every man, but they always want more.

Also, as a previous poster said, a lot of you guys seem to lose interest in things when you get an answer. I don't know if you guys are looking for an incredibly specific scientific explanation for everything, but that's not going to happen. I was just fine with the answers they gave and was very surprised when I came on here to see everyone so upset. I can understand why you guys are disappointed, but we now know the nature of the "feud" between Jacob and the smoke monster, and the motivation of both--what more do you want? We don't know the exact technical specifics of how eternal life is granted, but would that really make for interesting TV or would it just sound like a bunch of bullshit? You just have to roll with stuff like that that is a scientific impossibility.

Anyway, in between eating your sour grapes, did any of you notice if the light actually went out when Jacob pushed his brother into it? Is the Smoke Monster the manifestation of the light going out, which would be the reason why it is so important to keep him on the island? We know why Jacob's brother was trying to escape the island, but why is the Smoke Monster? I'm going to assume for now that he/it is the manifestation of the light going out and him escaping the island would mean total destruction, but I don't know.

5/12/2010 10:58:49 AM

How did MiB's dead body end up next to the creek? Did it pop back out of the opening or was there an exit? It's not crucial, but it just seemed like he disappeared down the hole then suddenly ended up on some rocks.

5/12/2010 11:06:15 AM

My guess was that when the smoke monster came out it carried his body. At some point, it dropped it off.

5/12/2010 11:07:53 AM

5/12/2010 11:11:22 AM

teeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheehee

V, the saddest part about this boondoggle ending of this boondoggle show is that some people will call it "thought provoking".

[Edited on May 12, 2010 at 11:19 AM. Reason : V]

5/12/2010 11:16:01 AM

Quote :

"Also, as a previous poster said, a lot of you guys seem to lose interest in things when you get an answer. I don't know if you guys are looking for an incredibly specific scientific explanation for everything, but that's not going to happen. I was just fine with the answers they gave and was very surprised when I came on here to see everyone so upset. I can understand why you guys are disappointed, but we now know the nature of the "feud" between Jacob and the smoke monster, and the motivation of both--what more do you want? We don't know the exact technical specifics of how eternal life is granted, but would that really make for interesting TV or would it just sound like a bunch of bullshit? You just have to roll with stuff like that that is a scientific impossibility."

Exactly. Any time they spell anything out half of you either the religious or scientific crew is going to be pissed. I wouldn't expect to know much more about this island than we do in real life about our life & universe.

I'm AstralAdvent and i approved this message.

5/12/2010 11:16:40 AM

5/12/2010 11:24:20 AM

I just want to say something

Did it bother anyone else that after the mother popped out little Jacob and little MiB that her belly WAS STILL FUCKING HUGE?!?!?!

5/12/2010 11:27:18 AM

^^ Well done, sir.

So, again, (since nobody will probably read my long post) does anybody know if the light actually went out when Jacob threw his brother into it?

[Edited on May 12, 2010 at 11:29 AM. Reason : .]

5/12/2010 11:28:08 AM

I don't think so considering the pocket of energy that still existed beneath the hatch and the fact that the wheel worked. Those energies and the light are one and the same.

[Edited on May 12, 2010 at 11:32 AM. Reason : :]

5/12/2010 11:31:30 AM

Quote :

"Did it bother anyone else that after the mother popped out little Jacob and little MiB that her belly WAS STILL FUCKING HUGE?!?!?!"

When Jacob came out, I noticed her stomach was still gigantic. I thought it must be one of two things: 1. Man in black is right behind him, 2. I don't know anything about childbirth and the stomach doesn't instantly deflate as I imagined.

But how lame was "I ONLY THOUGHT OF ONE NAME"

I lol'd 4real

5/12/2010 11:32:20 AM

Quote :

"When Jacob came out, I noticed her stomach was still gigantic. I thought it must be one of two things: 1. Man in black is right behind him, 2. I don't know anything about childbirth and the stomach doesn't instantly deflate as I imagined. But how lame was "I ONLY THOUGHT OF ONE NAME""

Thought maybe I was crazy but I got increasingly annoyed at the fact that MiB never had his named call...oh how that irked me


III

5/12/2010 11:38:16 AM

PLACENTA BIRTH

I'm AstralAdvent and i approved this message.

5/12/2010 11:38:33 AM

Given what LOST has shown us over the past 5+ seasons there is no way any competent person can be happy with how they are winding this down.

I find it pretty clear the creators just wanted to be done with this shit and its reflected in this season.

5/12/2010 11:59:11 AM

^^^
Not only that, but everyone referred to Jacob by name even when it was unnecessary. The writers are fucking with you.

[Edited on May 12, 2010 at 12:00 PM. Reason : ^]

5/12/2010 12:00:14 PM

MiB's name must be important or they wouldn't go to extreme measures to hide it.

5/12/2010 12:05:41 PM

Maybe it will be very important. I agree, they used Jacob's name extensively and would pass over any identification for MiB...


III

5/12/2010 12:09:21 PM

I was personally disappointed that Jacob and MiB's real mom didn't give birth to a baby smoke monster

5/12/2010 12:09:40 PM

hahaha that would have been pretty funny. Little baby smoke monster pops out with little baby taxi cab ticker noises.

5/12/2010 12:11:22 PM

Quote :

"MiB's name must be important or they wouldn't go to extreme measures to hide it."

Or maybe MIB is just He Who Will Not Be Named

I really don't think they're gonna pull some shit where he turns out to be Aaron or Walt or Vincent or whatever

5/12/2010 12:19:19 PM

Quote :

"When Jacob came out, I noticed her stomach was still gigantic. I thought it must be one of two things: 1. Man in black is right behind him, 2. I don't know anything about childbirth and the stomach doesn't instantly deflate as I imagined. But how lame was "I ONLY THOUGHT OF ONE NAME" I lol'd 4real"

Well when Jacob came out I called the fact that there were twins due to the huge belly still being there. Then after MiB came out and it was STILL FUCKING HUGE I was like "oh c'mon lost............. >_> "

From someone who's seen real childbirth: trust me, the belly doesn't stay that huge right after it pops out because I mean - there's not a whole lot keeping it propped up when the child is out, naw mean?

and yes, I, too, LOL'd at the only one name thing


ps - it bothers me how the babies were in black and white, the kids were in black and white, the adults were in black and white, Jacob had blonde hair and MiB had dark brown hair... I don't know why but it just annoyed me

[Edited on May 12, 2010 at 12:53 PM. Reason : .]

5/12/2010 12:52:34 PM

The baby formerly known as placenta

I'm AstralAdvent and i approved this message.

5/12/2010 1:38:22 PM

Have you ever seen a live birth or a placenta? Not that big, holmes

5/12/2010 1:40:36 PM

have you ever heard a joke?

they are usually more funny

I'm AstralAdvent and i approved this message.

5/12/2010 1:49:19 PM

I just didn't think it was funny

5/12/2010 1:51:46 PM

Quote :

"Also any ideas on the glowing light? Maybe it is the fountain of youth and that is how Jacob has been able to stay alive so long and grant Richard immortality? Jacob's fake mother said that a lot of people would be looking for it for a long time and there are plenty of times in history that people took expeditions to try and find the fountain of youth."

The mother said that a little bit of the very same light is inside every person. And that if the light there (in that hole) goes out, it goes out everywhere. - I took that to mean that if that light goes out, humanity/life (something of that sort) ends... everywhere.

Of course, there's no way to know if she was telling the truth. Both of the twins were very naive and uninformed. They only knew what she told them. And they believed that they could not kill each other simply because she said she made it that way (who knows if that was true). They could obviously beat the shit out of each other and knock each other out.

Quote :

"Evidently she, like Jacob now, can grant immortality. (most likely has something to do with the "Source")"

I think Jacob's immortality and powers may have something to do with the wine she gave him at the end, along with whatever she said. He also gave Richard wine when he granted him immortality.

Quote :

"does anybody know if the light actually went out when Jacob threw his brother into it"

I just watched the end again, and you can't tell. It gets dark while the smoke is coming out, then the camera looks up to watch the smoke fly off. It doesn't show the cave again. So you can't tell if it went out or if it was just being blocked out by the smoke while it was coming out.


Regarding MiB's name: I don't think it's important at all. MiB, the person, is dead - his skeleton is still in the cave with his "mother". I think smokey just took his form. While Smokey was Locke, he said that once he takes a body he's stuck like that for a long time, right? I'm pretty sure he just had the appearance of Jacob's brother (who's body was not buried), just like he now has the appearance of Locke. So if we're not actually dealing with MiB, I don't think his name is important at all. Knowing what exactly Smokey is is much more important. Not sure if we'll find out, but there's plenty of time left.

[Edited on May 12, 2010 at 3:00 PM. Reason : .]

5/12/2010 3:00:14 PM

I don't think Smokey existed before jacob's brother went into the light... When Jacob asked his "mother" what happens, she said something worse than death (like turning into a fucking smoke monster maybe?)

Also, jacob's brother wanted off the island, and so does smokey locke.. which makes me think they're all one and the same.

5/12/2010 3:08:15 PM

See, my thinking is, it doesn't really matter at all what the mother said about the light. She doesn't know what it is either. No one does, at least no one human. What we have here is a primitive people who are trying to explain things they don't understand.

The mother, her predecessors, Jacob, Locke, and now Jack believe its some sort of mystical energy that must be protected or contained, or the world is fucked. They have no basis for that belief other than pure faith due to something they were told or saw. Again, they don't actually know what it is, which is why the explanations are always vague or inconsistent.

Then you have the other side, which includes Jacob's brother, Widmore, DHARMA, etc.... They see it as nothing but a physical energy that can be exploited or used as a means to an end. They either don't believe or don't care about the consequences, they just want to use the energy for what it is. Jacob's brother, specifically, wanted to use it to get off the island and didn't give a damn about what the mother said about the consequences. He didn't believe.

That's more or less what the show's been about since day one. Faith vs. science. I don't think we're ever going to get a concrete answer to who's "right", but I think finale's conclusion has to lean one way or another. I'm guessing it's going to be more towards the faith side of the equation, and we'll never really know what any of this shit actually is.

[Edited on May 12, 2010 at 3:16 PM. Reason : :]

5/12/2010 3:14:36 PM

^ I agree with most of that, but I don't know if Widmore, based on what we currently know of his character, fits into that second group. At the moment, I think that Widmore is just trying to prevent the smoke monster from escaping the island. I think he's a little confused about what needs to happen for the smoke monster to escape or unclear of the ramifications, but I don't think that, at the moment, he's trying to exploit the energy of the island.

5/12/2010 3:21:11 PM

Quote :

"Also, jacob's brother wanted off the island, and so does smokey locke.. which makes me think they're all one and the same."

This

5/12/2010 3:39:41 PM

oh really?

I'm AstralAdvent and i approved this message.

5/12/2010 4:09:49 PM

^^wow. someone's a little slow

5/12/2010 4:19:00 PM

Quote :

"IRSeriousCat All American 5889 Posts user info edit post Does anyone know what was in the bag Hurley found when digging in the dirt? 4/14/2010 11:27:19 AM se7entythree LEGO® 13221 Posts user info edit post http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Stones 4/14/2010 11:28:23 AM"

Quote :

"e7entythree LEGO® 13221 Posts user info edit post Quote : "And this time, he's going to the timeline where the island is under water. And what is bad about it?" the flash sideways or whatever was from one of the early seasons. I don't know which. The island wasn't underwater. Desmond was in some underwater dharma station & Charlie swam up. I could be wrong bc I don't retain info abt shows or movies for long, but I'm pretty sure the island was not under water in that flash."

I'll continue if you want

5/12/2010 4:23:10 PM

^^Well duro was saying that smokey killed jacob's brother then took his form... it's a little different

[Edited on May 12, 2010 at 4:24 PM. Reason : ^]

5/12/2010 4:24:14 PM

Yeah, I think we're supposed to assume that Jacob's brother's soul or whatever was transferred into the smoke monster. That's what he meant when he told Richard that the devil (Jacob) stole his body and humanity.

5/12/2010 4:32:51 PM

Quote :

"Also, jacob's brother wanted off the island, and so does smokey locke.. which makes me think they're all one and the same.""

but yet he's dead. Jacob found his body, and took it to the cave with his mother's. And their skeletons are still there. So, maybe some essence of him, his soul or something like that... maybe.

in my eyes, I guess there are 3 options.
1) Smokey is a different entity from MiB and just had his form for a long time and now has Locke's.

2) Smokey is different than MiB and it was some sort of Ghost of MiB that was interacting with Richard. Richard can't see dead people though, so I doubt that's the case.

or 3) Smokey is MiB or at least some part of MiB and was able to be Smokey or MiB when he wanted and can now be Smokey or Locke when he wants.


as Locke, Smokey said that once he takes a form, he stays that way for for a long time. that makes me think he took the form of MiB. Which makes me lean a little more toward 1. But I certainly see how MiB wanting to get off the island and Smokey wanting to get off the island lend some credence to 3. And additionally, he still seems to think he can't kill Jacob himself. But we also know that he has all of Locke's memories, so he would probably have all of MiB's as well.

Quote :

"I don't think Smokey existed before jacob's brother went into the light... When Jacob asked his "mother" what happens, she said something worse than death (like turning into a fucking smoke monster maybe?)"

agreed. Well, in that it wasn't out and about. Him going in either created it, or unleashed it. I'm not so sure about the theory that the mother was a smoke monster as well.


I also agree with a lot of what Shrike said. I'd just say I'm not so sure about Widmore. I'm not really sure what his intentions are.

[Edited on May 12, 2010 at 4:36 PM. Reason : too slow]

Good point with what he said about "the devil" stealing his body. I'd forgotten about that. That makes me lean further to thinking Smokey is just MiB transformed.

[Edited on May 12, 2010 at 4:39 PM. Reason : ^]

5/12/2010 4:35:11 PM

Yeah, I have no idea what the mother's connection to the smoke monster was. My only thought is that she was capable of summoning it somehow.

5/12/2010 4:47:30 PM

How can you not think the mom was a smoke monster? The evidence sure points to that she was.

1. She was killed before speaking to the son, and she thanked him for killing her.
2. The "people" were burned and the wells filled in -- very smoke monster-esque.
3. She said that going into the light was worse than death -- like she knew from experience. When Jacob threw his brother into the light, the smoke came out and we know that the smoke monster took his form.

5/12/2010 4:48:27 PM

i don't think it's a definite "no, she wasn't." I'm just not sold.

Quote :

"1. She was killed before speaking to the son, and she thanked him for killing her."

The whole "kill before they speak" thing is not confirmed to even matter. Maybe it had to do with her being immortal more so than her being a smoke monster. MiB told Richard not to let Jacob speak to him either. He also gave him the same knife to try to kill him with. I'm pretty sure the first thing MiB said to richard when he got back after not killing Jacob was "you let him talk, didn't you?" And Jacob doesn't seem to be a smoke monster. So that doesn't really support her being a smoke monster at all.

And so what that she thanked him. I'm not saying it's not significant, but Smokey doesn't seem to want to die. So again, I'm not sure that really supports her being a smoke monster.

Quote :

"2. The "people" were burned and the wells filled in -- very smoke monster-esque."

I don't think that's smoke monster-esque at all. He didn't burn anyone at the temple. He just beasted them. Tossed their asses against walls, that kind of stuff. Smokey doesn't need fire, knives, guns, etc. when he's in smoke form.

Now if the village was completely torn apart, everyone was dead, and it looked like a tornado did it... I'd say that was smoke monster-esque.

Quote :

"3. She said that going into the light was worse than death -- like she knew from experience. When Jacob threw his brother into the light, the smoke came out and we know that the smoke monster took his form."

Yeah, I've also had some devout christians tell me all sorts of things that they were extremely confident about either happening in the past or that would happen after we die. As if they knew it was 100% fact. So maybe she knew, or maybe she just really believed it because someone else told her the same thing.

Again, I don't think it's impossible. But I don't think it's nearly as clear cut as what you suggested. Especially based on those claims.

5/12/2010 5:34:17 PM

^ That

Also, it would possibly explain her thorough knowledge of the area and rules of the island. Also, there may have been a long line of people inhabited by the smoke before her. I say this because someone would have shown her the location of the rocks based on MiB's inability to find them alone.

5/12/2010 5:35:09 PM

going back to whether or not MiB = smoke monster, in the episode where Claire tried to kill Kate, Kate asked Flocke why he wanted Aaron & Claire to be together again. He said something to the effect of "I had a mother once...and she was crazy". I assumed he was referring to their mother from last night.

5/12/2010 7:01:09 PM

I, too, no longer give a whit about the main cast. I'd much rather learn more details about the island.

The whole "more answers will lead to more questions" was a complete cop out. This show was compelling because of the island's mysteries and the character's circumstances.

[Edited on May 12, 2010 at 7:54 PM. Reason : I liked this episode though. ]

5/12/2010 7:53:56 PM

god dammit, i go to work and the thread blows up. the only thing i have the effort to respond to right now is this

Quote :

"So how long do you guys think Jacob/MiB have been there? If I had to make an educated guess, I'd say from sometime around ancient Rome. If you look at the clothes their biological mother was wearing, it looked like a Roman Stola (a type of dress) and sandals. Her name was Claudia, which is the feminine form of the Roman name Claudius. Also they were speaking Latin. The dudes they saw in the jungle that killed the boar didn't really look too Roman though... they had like animal bones and stuff hanging off their clothes... if anything they looked kind of like barbarians. Maybe these are the guys that build the statue? Either way, we know that Jacob has been there for at least a few hundred years... as someone already pointed out, back in Season 1 Jack said that Adam and Eve were only about 50 years old."

i read in a spoiler a while back that the jacob/mib episode was supposed to take place in 23 AD. not sure if that's when they were born, when they were teenagers, or when all the events happened after they grew up. although they didn't mention the year in the episode, i think it's safe to think jacob is around 2000 years old.

and my friend told me jack said it would take at least 50 years for the clothes to deteriorate the way they did. it wasn't a guess at how old the bones were. but after ~2000 years exposed in a jungle i don't think the clothes would stay preserved particularly well. i don't know if the bones could've stayed preserved as they did for that amount of time, but i'm not an archaeologist or an anthropologist either.

[Edited on May 12, 2010 at 8:16 PM. Reason : .]

5/12/2010 8:14:09 PM

The more I think about it, this wasn't a bad episode at all. It could have been one of the best episodes, but it was marred by sub-par acting and writing. It did however answer a ton of questions, and really solidified a lot of things the show has always been about.

5/12/2010 8:51:07 PM