Quote :

"But how do you fire a guy who turned NC State into a consistent 7-8 win team?"

You say he turned us into a consistent 7-8 win team as if we were a laughing stock and perennial 4 win team for a decade prior to TOB's arrival. We weren't far removed from some damn good teams at NC State when TOB arrived. The talent was lacking on the roster he inherited, but it's not like we were as bad as Duke had been for so many years.

Quote :

" Firing O'Brien completely undid all of the progress and strides that were made into making NC State football a solid football program. We decided to tear it down and build it back up from the foundation, instead of building on the foundation that was already poured."

You saw the talent we were working with last year. TOB did a solid job of fucking the program up through shitty recruiting by himself. He rode the coattails of two NFL QBs to staggering 19-21 ACC record (not counting his first year with Evans and Beck at QB).

Quote :

"Now the argument for O'Brien was that he had reached his ceiling. If you think that 3 seasons of 7+ wins is enough of a sample size to rightfully determine if the coach can break through, then it's really hard for me to listen to you argue that Doeren needs 2 seasons to get ONE goddamn ACC victory."

Yes. It's pathetic where NC State football is right now. It's embarrassing. But I don't think mustering 3 straight 7+ win seasons with future NFL QBs under center is particularly impressive, though.

Quote :

" The other argument is this: Doeren doesn't have any talent! They're soo young"

I really don't really like DD saying that stuff in post-game interviews. Comes off as just a lame excuse. But it's partially true.

Quote :

" And that's why we hired the guy, right? We hired him to break the barrier that his predecessor supposedly couldn't break? Then he needs to show us, SOON, that he can coach his way into a conference win now with less talent in order for me to realistically believe that he can coach his way to a conference championship later (which will also be with less talent)."

Yes. I agree. Like I said, 0-11 in ACC play is awful. It really is embarrassing. I'm not ready to say that DD should be fired. But his results to date are not good. And if things don't change, he won't be our coach much longer.

I didn't hate TOB. I liked that we beat UNC when he was here. I liked his attitude. But he underachieved on the field. And consistently recruited poorly. Those 2 things aren't gonna build a great a program.

[Edited on October 16, 2014 at 1:54 PM. Reason : f]

10/16/2014 1:50:07 PM

Quote :

"C'mon, man."

we lost three winnable games to three shitty teams. we obviously had the talent to win those games because we beat much better teams over the course of the year.

Quote :

"In other words.....you just didn't like the guy."

i don't like that he refused to acknowledge that his defense was fucking horrible by firing archer. we were clearly never going to compete for the conference playing his style of defense. sorry if i offended you by insulting your grandpa.

[Edited on October 16, 2014 at 2:04 PM. Reason : ]

10/16/2014 2:02:37 PM

You're upset that the guy didn't have a 13 win season...

I don't really need to explain why that's ridiculous, do I?

10/16/2014 2:05:39 PM

Should have had a good defensive coordinator like UVA has up there. That Tenuta knows how to blitz.

10/16/2014 2:07:21 PM

^When you have all the tools and talent to win but you lose 3 very winnable games, 2 of which cost you a chance at the ACCCG? That's some Clempsoning shit.

10/16/2014 2:09:14 PM

Man, I would love a 13 win season!

10/16/2014 2:15:52 PM

Sometimes you beat teams you shouldn't, sometimes you lose games you should win. At the end of the season, the record tends to reflect where you are on the whole.

That 2010 team was pretty good, and just not quite the class of the ACC. Tough losses to VT (traveled back to NC for that game), at Clemson, and at Maryland. Somehow best FSU, though, and beat Geno and the mountaineers convincingly, too. They weren't 13 wins good, though. That's fucking ridiculous. Anyone who argues that is a fool.

[Edited on October 16, 2014 at 2:20 PM. Reason : ]

10/16/2014 2:16:37 PM

and when TOB is your coach you're definitely going to lose a lot of games you should win.

10/16/2014 2:25:04 PM

Good thing we solved that problem!

10/16/2014 2:26:11 PM

and when DD is your coach, you're going to lose all of your conference games

10/16/2014 2:26:27 PM

again, not defending DD. I'm done doing that. but when someone says firing TOB was a bad move I'll be the first to tell you why it was a great move.

10/16/2014 2:32:54 PM

Well, at least Yow had someone in mind when she fired TOB. Even if DD doesn't pan out, I can't fault her for having a plan and executing it. It beats some nationally embarrassing coaching search. But IF DD doesn't pan out, I can only give so much credit to an AD for hiring a bad coach.

10/16/2014 2:34:44 PM

If you fire someone because of their performance, and their replacement does much worse...it was a bad move.


Yeah, Doeren gets time to get his shit together, but he's shown very little for optimism.

10/16/2014 2:37:29 PM

Give him 6 years or 35 losses (whichever comes first)

10/16/2014 2:45:53 PM

Looks like captain insano is showing no mercy.

10/16/2014 2:56:44 PM

Give him 6 years, or 2 losses to UNC (whichever comes first)

10/16/2014 3:08:41 PM

Hey. You can say a lot of mean things about Tom. He was cold with little personality. He saw recruiting as a chore and avoided it. He was incapable of taking advantage of down years in the division or on the road at all. But don't you dare say he lost to UNC twice.

10/16/2014 3:38:00 PM

he definitely would have victored over them last year with pete thomas

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/doeren-nc-state-has-to-earn-1st-acc-win/14084865/

Quote :

"When we earn an ACC win, we'll have one. That's where it is "

How can you argue with that?

10/16/2014 3:54:16 PM

clicks link to see pic of doeren with ron cherry

blood begins boiling

10/16/2014 3:58:15 PM

Can't argue with that.

Quote :

"he definitely would have victored over them last year with pete thomas"

Yeah Pete was a pretty lousy qb. Probably worse than Daniel Evans throwing picks left and right.

10/16/2014 4:02:59 PM

Quote :

"Yeah, Doeren gets time to get his shit together, but he's shown very little for optimism."

i can't defend my stance at all, but i somehow disagree.

Quote :

"You saw the talent we were working with last year. TOB did a solid job of fucking the program up through shitty recruiting by himself. He rode the coattails of two NFL QBs to staggering 19-21 ACC record (not counting his first year with Evans and Beck at QB)."

this really can't be emphasized enough when talking about TOB (and i liked him!). he had five straight years of guys that would go on to start as rookies in the league at qb and still didn't manage to do much.

10/16/2014 4:04:20 PM

Quote :

"But don't you dare say he lost to UNC twice."

Yeah but you don't fire Doeren after 1 season for losing to UNC as many times as TOB did in 6.

Also, I can't wait for Brissett to start in the NFL as a rookie somehow. 7th round pick to the Raiders or something. Then you can't bring that weaksauce about Glennon only getting 8 wins or whatever.

Quote :

"he had five straight years of guys that would go on to start as rookies in the league at qb and still didn't manage to do much."

How many national championships did Tom Brady and Peyton Manning and Aaron Rodgers and Andrew Luck and Drew Brees win in college?

Alabama wins a bunch of titles with QBs who don't even make the NFL

[Edited on October 16, 2014 at 4:22 PM. Reason : .]

10/16/2014 4:14:51 PM

Quote :

"i can't defend my stance at all, but i somehow disagree."

We've been outscored 120-31 in the last 11 quarters of ACC play. Something tells me that score will look even more lopsided after we play the Loserville Tardinals (still makes me chuckle) this Saturday.

In our 11 ACC losses, only one loss was by single digits (UNC last year).

Total yardage during our last two conference games? 904 yards to our 317 yards. I'm sure we'll find our offensive rhythm against Louisville, though, right?


I'm sorry, but what is making you optimistic?

[Edited on October 16, 2014 at 4:26 PM. Reason : ]

10/16/2014 4:20:46 PM

yeah, I was going to say, if you can't defend your stance, then there probably ain't much to defend.

homeboy is right, not much to see here, move along

10/16/2014 4:38:44 PM

Quote :

"We've been outscored 120-31 in the last 11 quarters of ACC play. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_picking_(fallacy)

10/16/2014 4:45:07 PM

I only removed one quarter of conference play for this season. Even if you add it back, the numbers are still devastating.

10/16/2014 4:48:03 PM

LAWL, nice try.

if you want to go that route, then we can go with points scored in all of 11 of DD losses (218 to 440)

I mean, he did go on to say that all but one loss was by double digits. funny that.

10/16/2014 4:51:28 PM

SO DO YOU THINK WE SHOULD FIRE HIM???

10/16/2014 4:56:52 PM

Quote :

"7th round pick to the Raiders or something"

unless Derek Carr is dead in two years, no fucking way.

Quote :

"Alabama wins a bunch of titles with QBs who don't even make the NFL"

Alabama wins because they have their pick of the nation's recruits every year and as a result they dominate in all phases of the game. We won under TOB primarily because of stellar QB play. and many times we also lost to inferior teams despite stellar QB play. so without stellar QB play, those teams wouldn't have been nearly as successful.

name a big win under TOB where it wasn't Russell or Glennon working a miracle. and you can't say FSU in 2010 because the defense nearly fucked that game away. Ponder won that game for us more than the defense.

[Edited on October 16, 2014 at 5:04 PM. Reason : ]

[Edited on October 16, 2014 at 5:06 PM. Reason : ]

10/16/2014 5:00:19 PM

Quote :

"name a big win under TOB where it wasn't Russell or Glennon working a miracle"

I'd say the 2011 Clemson game was a complete effort

10/16/2014 5:16:50 PM

Quote :

"name a big win under TOB where it wasn't Russell or Glennon working a miracle. and you can't say FSU in 2010 because the defense nearly fucked that game away. Ponder won that game for us more than the defense."

Translation: Name a big win under TOB, but don't use any of the big wins he had under TOB.

10/16/2014 5:24:22 PM

name a win under Doeren that wasn't against the sister of the poor

10/16/2014 5:44:55 PM

Quote :

"How many national championships did Tom Brady and Peyton Manning and Aaron Rodgers and Andrew Luck and Drew Brees win in college? Alabama wins a bunch of titles with QBs who don't even make the NFL"

national championships? i just hope we can win a game.

10/16/2014 5:56:31 PM

I still think we get 2 conference wins this season. Though, admittedly, 2-14 wouldn't exactly be a glowing conference recored over 2 years either

10/16/2014 5:59:54 PM

^^^^seemed to me tree was arguing TOB would've been successful without pro-level qb play, so i challenged him to name a big win here QB play wasn't the reason we won. i agree the 2011 clemson game was outstanding and the defense played extremely well, so there's one.

[Edited on October 16, 2014 at 6:03 PM. Reason : ^]

10/16/2014 6:03:16 PM

i think we get at least 3 this season, i really do.

i've been wrong before, but that's how i feel in my heart.

10/16/2014 6:04:05 PM

TOB also didn't recruit Russell Wilson, so he totally lucked into that

10/16/2014 6:20:56 PM

^^^I was mainly arguing that football is a team sport, and even NFL QBs much better than Wilson didn't necessarily have tons of success in college

10/16/2014 6:40:25 PM

^^So? He still made him better. If we didn't land RW, Glennon would have started 4 years. Not much difference.

Quote :

"^When you have all the tools and talent to win but you lose 3 very winnable games, 2 of which cost you a chance at the ACCCG? That's some Clempsoning shit."

So on one hand you guys say TOB's recruiting was awful and you blame him for the current losing, but on the other you say we had a team talented enough to win at Clemson who brings in a top 25 class every year?

Which way is it?

10/17/2014 9:02:22 AM

please explain to me what TOB specifically - not the QB coach or other members of the coaching staff - did to make russell wilson better. you may be right, but I have a feeling that all you're doing is saying, "russell wilson was really good. TOB was the head coach. ipso facto, TOB is the reason why he was good"

10/17/2014 9:39:42 AM

Nothing. He stood on the sidelines during workouts, practice, and games and just looked at the grass.

Doeren however has made Jacoby Brissett, a low level recruit, into a decent ACC starter because he coaches so hard.

[Edited on October 17, 2014 at 10:04 AM. Reason : see how dumb the argument is?]

10/17/2014 10:01:01 AM

^^ boozie said that TOB made Russell "better", not that TOB was the reason Russell was good. It's likely TOB was -part- of what made Russell good, that's it. You're trying to twist it up to start an argument (not really sure why?).

[Edited on October 17, 2014 at 10:40 AM. Reason : ]

10/17/2014 10:39:45 AM

^^ I can't tell if that second statement is sarcasm, or....?

^ ok, poor choice of wording aside on my part, the point i'm making is TOB inherited a very talented QB and it's not exactly clear how TOB somehow made him better. it's kind of just conjecture is all.

10/17/2014 10:53:11 AM

Quote :

"coaches so hard"

10/17/2014 10:57:59 AM

Fans analyzing a coach's competence/ability/credibility is often total conjecture, and often humorous.

10/17/2014 11:17:53 AM

I specifically remember Russell Wilson developing greater pocket poise and reigning in his happy feet under O'Brien and Dana Bible. He used to use his feet to create plays often, which worked, but the coaching staff encouraged him to use his feet to extend plays rather than create them.

I also distinctly remember some pack fans getting upset with O'Brien for putting that leash on Wilson as he learned early and showed some growing pains as he became more of a pocket QB. Of course this is currently the skill that every announcer in the NFL praises Wilson for having, but please continue to believe that Wilson came here and blossomed into an NFL QB entirely on his own and without the tutelage of a coaching staff who also put two other QBs in the league.


Also, you suck at sarcasm.

10/17/2014 11:18:05 AM

I wonder what the 2015-16 version of the TOB/RW/Glennon round of discussions will be like

10/17/2014 11:38:06 AM

all i know is when TOB was the coach, RW never lost to the damn Dallas Cowboys

10/17/2014 11:40:56 AM

^^ inorite? can't fucking wait.

10/17/2014 11:41:42 AM

Quote :

"Also, I can't wait for Brissett to start in the NFL as a rookie somehow. 7th round pick to the Raiders or something. Then you can't bring that weaksauce about Glennon only getting 8 wins or whatever."

Hahahahahahahahahahaha. Unless he improves by leaps and bounds, brissett isn't gonna get drafted, let alone start as a rookie in the nfl.

10/17/2014 11:46:31 AM