hitler was pro abortion.

you don't want to be like hitler, do you??!?

8/7/2005 4:37:14 PM

strawman grumpy

will you ever fucking learn?

8/7/2005 4:39:33 PM

Quote :

"The "joining of a sperm and an egg" is not an organism, it is an event. The product of that event is the zygote, which is an organism."

The sperm and the egg are an organism.

Quote :

"Yes, you do. But you do not have that in common with a sperm or an egg."

Yes I do, the sperm and the egg are both in that phase currently, they will then merge and go on to the next step.

Quote :

"You said that from the time a fetus could be supported outside of the mother's body, it qualifies as a person."

Yes, and if they are still dependant on the host body then they are fetuses and cannot survive outisde of it. How many times do you want me to explain this?

Quote :

"It is not far-fetched to anticipate that medical technology will advance even just slightly, thereby pushing back the line."

Slight advancement will not push back the line. It is well outside of the bounds of modern medical science to raise an embryo to term without a human host.

Quote :

"If you take an individual cell out of my body, it is a fragment. But, when joined with the rest of the cells, it is part of a person."

The cells in your body are just as seperate as a sperm and an egg.

Quote :

"The veracity of that belief can be evaluated by science. There isn't a litmus test for personality."

You missed the point. The point is that "erring on the side of life" is stupid. The fact that there is a question itself makes it more than clear that it isn't a life and death issue.

8/7/2005 5:40:53 PM

Quote :

"It always entertains me to see you guys being so cavalier with the definition of a "human being." If I'm wrong, the lives of some quite probably slutty women get seriously inconvenienced. If you're wrong, tens of millions of innocent people die."

people who arent alive, cant die -- that premise is flawed. besides, we wouldnt have war if we always err'ed on the side of life.

Quote :

""name the qualities that a zygote has in common with a human. NAME QUALITIES THAT ARE NOT IM COMMON WITH: my cells in my hair, a sperm, an egg READY, GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

you said

Quote :

""A fetus has in common with you that it was, at some point, a less developed fetus, or an embryo, or a single zygotic cell. "

i asked you to name the qualities a ZYGOTE!!!!!! has in common with a human.

name qualities that dont apply to my hair cells.


you cannot name:

its chromosomes

its "potential", becuase youve said that doesnt matter, and also becuase each of my hair cells has the potential to be a human.




[Edited on August 7, 2005 at 7:10 PM. Reason : 6th time ive asked ]

8/7/2005 7:09:47 PM

when do the cells start to diversify?

8/7/2005 8:43:36 PM

y'all sure do know how to go on and on, don't y'all?

8/7/2005 8:46:48 PM

There is no point to this discussion if the point of it is just to argue and call the other side of the argument stupid. the point should be to try and understand the other side and attempt to form a compromise. that is what I was trying to do with:

Quote :

"for real, religion needs not be involved. it is not a religious matter, and i don't think anyone should attempt to force their beliefs on others. kris, you cannot seriously say that a 8 month, 30 day old baby, is not a human being. if it is a human being at this point, when did it become one? i think this is the major issue of the abortion argument. lets think about how you are prounced dead...if your heart is not beating and you have no pulse. how about we apply this to an unborn child. if a heart is beating, it is considered alive. i think this is a common ground that can be understood by either side. although it cannot survive on its own, neither can someone who has just went into cardiac arrest and needs to be shocked."

Kris, this is the exact worse thing you can say if you are trying to get others to understand your point of view. I would never respect anything you say if you just call me stupid for believing what I do.

Quote :

"You missed the point. The point is that "erring on the side of life" is stupid."

[Edited on August 7, 2005 at 9:48 PM. Reason : .]

8/7/2005 9:47:58 PM

Quote :

"There is no point to this discussion if the point of it is just to argue and call the other side of the argument stupid. the point should be to try and understand the other side and attempt to form a compromise."

You're right, but good luck getting that moral across. I don't think 1 person in the history of the soap box has ever changed their mind after committing to a certain side.

Come to think of it... why do we even do this?

Let's all go play in Chit Chat.

8/7/2005 10:01:00 PM

While I've enjoyed reading y'all's responses, I'm afraid I did not make myself clear. So here we go again...

Pregnancy and childbirth can be painful, traumatic experiences.

When a man has sex with a woman, he knows that nine months later, he may become a father.

Similarly, the woman knows that she may become a mother. But the woman is ultimately burdened the most--she must endure PREGNANCY and CHILDBIRTH.

If a man can have sex without fear of pregnancy and childbirth, why should a woman be burdened with those things?

8/7/2005 10:48:06 PM

a man shouldnt ever feel like he has no responsibility to the expectant mother

he should be working twice as hard to prepare an income and keep mom dukes comfortable

the way i see it it aint a free ride

8/7/2005 10:58:37 PM

waah waah, pregnancy and childbirth. ask any mother and see if 99% of them don't say that its worth it. i don't see that as being an excuse to have an abortion.

8/7/2005 11:00:42 PM

Ironically, pregnancy used to be traumatic only when the baby died upon birth/in the womb


ironic indeed, now its traumatic to carry and birth a living child

8/7/2005 11:02:32 PM

I have literally given up on communicating with Josh. At this point he's not reading what I write, not understanding what I read, not really doing much of anything. I don't recall ever thinking of him as being particularly bad at this whole "Soap Box" thing until just this thread. I have to wonder if someone else has ahold of his account.

Quote :

"If a man can have sex without fear of pregnancy and childbirth, why should a woman be burdened with those things?"

What do you want me to do, say that I'm sorry you were born a woman? You have to put up with menstruation, too. Some men have to put up with urinary stones, the passing of which (I'm told) is supposed to be much more painful than childbirth. We also die before you all do. Biology is a bitch, but it's sure as shit not the government's responsibility to make up for the shortcomings of what God (or random chance) gave you by giving you the right to kill with impunity.

Or do you want me to say that you should be allowed to kill anybody necessary so that you can avoid pain? Because, if I may say so, "Fuck that shit."

Quote :

"The sperm and the egg are an organism."

You don't need a concentration in biology to know that that statement is utterly and completely wrong.

Quote :

"Yes I do, the sperm and the egg are both in that phase currently, they will then merge and go on to the next step."

A sperm was not once an egg, and vice-versa.

Quote :

"Yes, and if they are still dependant on the host body then they are fetuses and cannot survive outisde of it. How many times do you want me to explain this?"

You never need to explain that at all, but what you have yet to cover is what effect technology in the past has had. A fetus/baby/whatever in certain situations a hundred years ago might have been thought dependent on the host body. Today we know that's not true, that they can be kept alive through other means. So was it OK to kill those fetuses a hundred years ago while it is wrong today? Or did we just collosally fuck up back in the day, and anyone who died as a result can be waved off as an unfortunate side-effect of our ignorance?

Quote :

"Slight advancement will not push back the line. It is well outside of the bounds of modern medical science to raise an embryo to term without a human host."

I'm not talking about raising it to term, I'm talking about pushing the line back a month. A week. A day. It doesn't matter, either way the line is moving back, and infants that could once, by your standard, be killed without a second thought are then made "full" people with all the rights entitled thereto.

Quote :

"The cells in your body are just as seperate as a sperm and an egg."

Absolutely ludicrous, and I shouldn't have to say so.

[Edited on August 7, 2005 at 11:11 PM. Reason : ]

8/7/2005 11:10:15 PM

^I wanted him (Josh) out of my thread from page one. He's been making you look "right."

I REPEAT:

If a man can fuck without fear of enduring pregnancy and childbirth, why shouldn't I be allowed to do the same?

[Edited on August 7, 2005 at 11:13 PM. Reason : ...]

8/7/2005 11:10:59 PM

Because nature said so.

Contrary to the liberal ideal, it is not the government's job to give you everything that God didn't.

8/7/2005 11:11:46 PM

^Nature has said alot of things, and we've never let that stop us. Admit it.

8/7/2005 11:14:06 PM

i took the morning after pill 3 times .......................................... in high school



once in college.

8/7/2005 11:20:23 PM

It's not the government's job to pay for it, but it's not their responsibility to stand in the way either. We've been going against nature in a big way for several hundred years. I don't see you complaining about indoor plumbing.

8/7/2005 11:21:35 PM

or processed foods in great amounts

..o maybe ive said too much

8/7/2005 11:24:57 PM

Hey, the second you guys find a way to make it so that men can have babies, we'll talk. That mgiht be a solution to your situation. Killing people isn't. Right now, nature's say in the matter seems pretty ironclad.

8/7/2005 11:26:20 PM

Quote :

"It's not the government's job to pay for it, but it's not their responsibility to stand in the way either. We've been going against nature in a big way for several hundred years. I don't see you complaining about indoor plumbing."

YES!!! Someone who gets it...!!!!

8/7/2005 11:27:09 PM

Standing in the way of what? The slaughter of millions? I tend to think that such is exactly what the government is there for.

8/7/2005 11:30:11 PM

And we're back to this shit again...

IT'S NOT ABOUT CUTE LITTLE FUCKING BABIES, LIFE, DEATH, BLOODY GOOPS THAT RESEMBLE ALIENS, OR WHATEVER...IT'S ABOUT A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO FUCK JUST LIKE YOU.

FUCK JUST LIKE YOU.

8/7/2005 11:33:52 PM

fetus (fetii?) are the new niggers

but how will they rally for civil rights?

Quote :

"IT'S NOT ABOUT CUTE LITTLE FUCKING BABIES, LIFE, DEATH, BLOODY GOOPS THAT RESEMBLE ALIENS"

Im glad that at least there are more refined and classy spokespersons than yourself

[Edited on August 7, 2005 at 11:35 PM. Reason : f]

8/7/2005 11:34:05 PM

^^ well put.

[Edited on August 7, 2005 at 11:35 PM. Reason : ^^]

8/7/2005 11:35:11 PM

Who said killing people is such a bad thing?(gods don't count) There are many situations that even our society deems it acceptable. We're just another animal, with the exception that humans(especially Americans) have an enormous detrimental effect on the Earth. What is the figure...one american consumes as many resources as 30 africans? By having an abortion, these individuals may be not only sparing the child from a horrible life, but also protecting the earth for the benefit of children that do survive.

Of course the younger this happens the better(prior to conception is the ideal). But really, is a kid really worth anything until they're 1 year old? It's not like they really know what's going on. Hell a cat is more intelligent than a baby.(more useful too)


Eh, enough trolling...
bottom line: If you're a guy that wants to fuck, wrap your dick. If you're a girl, use birth control. If you get yourself pregnant you can go to a clinic or go out in the woods with a coathanger for all I care, it's not my problem and never will be.

[Edited on August 7, 2005 at 11:43 PM. Reason : .]

8/7/2005 11:38:29 PM

Hey, D'Shaun, are you really criticizing my language when you just used the word "nigger"?

Yeah, that's what I fucking thought.

And, abonorio, are you being serious?

[Edited on August 7, 2005 at 11:43 PM. Reason : sss]

8/7/2005 11:43:29 PM

Quote :

"FUCK JUST LIKE YOU."

You realize this doesn't work on all of us, right?

And if everyone used contraceptives properly abortion wouldn't be much of a problem...

8/7/2005 11:46:35 PM

^I know. You've pointed that out twice now, and I conveniently ignored it because you're right--if everyone used condoms and had a timer on their BC to take it at the exact right moment every day, most unwanted pregnancies would not occur. Condoms do fail, and birth control is not entirely effective though...so this is slightly relevant.

8/7/2005 11:51:48 PM

how many abortions are due to protection failing? seen any studies?

8/7/2005 11:54:24 PM

Quote :

"If a man can fuck without fear of enduring pregnancy and childbirth, why shouldn't I be allowed to do the same?"

Because we women have uteri. It's what we are equipped to do.

And to answer your original question, yes, I am saying that you shouldn't have sex if you don't want to get pregnant.

8/7/2005 11:55:07 PM

jlphipps, I never want to have a child. EVER. I'd get my uterus removed if a doctor would do it, but normally they won't because they believe that I may change my mind. I'm equipped to have a child, but I don't want one. Get it? We're not all like you. As far as your claim that I should not have sex until menopause, you're missing the point. Men don't have to wait...why should I?

GoldenViper, I wouldn't trust the statistics for shit. I feel like I've only met one person who admitted to being pregnant because she didn't want to use birth control. Otherwise, it's always:

THE CONDOM BROKE!
I WAS TAKING A MED THAT INTERACTED WITH MY BC!
I WAS THE "ONE" THAT DIDN'T FALL INTO THE 99.99% EFFECTIVENESS RATE FOR BC!

Clearly, men and women are negligent when it comes to their reproductive safety.

[Edited on August 8, 2005 at 12:02 AM. Reason : sss]

8/8/2005 12:00:13 AM

eh, give it few [hundred?] years and we'll get better drugs

until then be careful

and hope roberts doesn't pwn roe v. wade

8/8/2005 12:03:02 AM

^I love you.

8/8/2005 12:03:42 AM

Yea, abortion is a temporary problem. Until they fix birth control I'm just going to continue ignoring it like men have for centuries.

8/8/2005 12:05:11 AM

That's what it's all about... you're a fucking feminazi thinking you get the wrong end of every deal.

8/8/2005 12:09:46 AM

^Dude, I'm very much ignorant, just like you, but not stubbornly so. That's the difference between you and I.

Quote :

"jlphipps, I never want to have a child. EVER. I'd get my uterus removed if a doctor would do it, but normally they won't because they believe that I may change my mind. I'm equipped to have a child, but I don't want one. Get it? We're not all like you. As far as your claim that I should not have sex until menopause, you're missing the point. Men don't have to wait...why should I?"

[Edited on August 8, 2005 at 12:11 AM. Reason : sss]

8/8/2005 12:09:58 AM

8/8/2005 12:10:35 AM

^i love it

8/8/2005 12:14:35 AM

D'Shaun, you're back! Here to talk more about "niggers"?

In case there was any question, I posted twice in this thread and then missed pages 2-5ish...I never wanted this to be a discussion about trimesters or zygotes.

[Edited on August 8, 2005 at 12:19 AM. Reason : sss]

8/8/2005 12:16:42 AM

Quote :

"IT'S NOT ABOUT CUTE LITTLE FUCKING BABIES, LIFE, DEATH, BLOODY GOOPS THAT RESEMBLE ALIENS, OR WHATEVER...IT'S ABOUT A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO FUCK JUST LIKE YOU."

You're right, of course. Your right to fuck is more important than someone else's right to live, and I was being sexist for claiming otherwise.

8/8/2005 12:21:02 AM

Nobody ever addressed the droid option.

8/8/2005 12:23:52 AM

^^GrumpyGOP, you forgot the most important part..."just like you"

That changes the meaning of it all.

Quote :

"jlphipps, I never want to have a child. EVER. I'd get my uterus removed if a doctor would do it, but normally they won't because they believe that I may change my mind. I'm equipped to have a child, but I don't want one. Get it? We're not all like you. As far as your claim that I should not have sex until menopause, you're missing the point. Men don't have to wait...why should I?"

What don't you understand about this?

[Edited on August 8, 2005 at 12:25 AM. Reason : sss]

8/8/2005 12:23:53 AM

Never mind, of course, that you have the same right to fuck. There are different consequences for you, sometimes.

Hemophiliacs have the right to do the things that we do, but there are different consequences for them. Should the government now make it so that everyone has hemophilia, so that everyone will face the same set of consequences for their actions?

8/8/2005 12:25:12 AM

What the fuck are you babbeling about?

8/8/2005 12:26:21 AM

Up until a certain point in the fetal development, the fetus does not really have the qualities of a human, so i don't see how you can call it murder. Most people do no support late term abortion, but most people do support abortion earlier in the gestation.

However, it really is a terrible thing to have to choose to abort what will be a baby, and there is always a way to make it work if the mother and father are willing. But, in American, freedom is highly valued, and while I think people should be encouraged to have their kids, the gov. shouldn't force them to do so. The problem I see with the way right-wingers wanting to make abortion completely illegal, is that the same people will also whine about the social programs that would be needed to help these new families with an unwanted child.

Edit:

There also seems to be some kind of mental disconnect in the moral/ethical system in the same conservatives who want to make the choice of abortion illegal, but who cavalierly support wars, particularly the war in Iraq (since it had nothing to do with us being attacked on 9/11, and was poorly executed on top of that).

[Edited on August 8, 2005 at 12:28 AM. Reason : 2]

8/8/2005 12:26:24 AM

Quote :

"jlphipps, I never want to have a child. EVER. I'd get my uterus removed if a doctor would do it, but normally they won't because they believe that I may change my mind. I'm equipped to have a child, but I don't want one. Get it? We're not all like you. As far as your claim that I should not have sex until menopause, you're missing the point. Men don't have to wait...why should I?"

First of all, having your uterus removed would be a bad idea because it could seriously mess up your hormones. The better alternative, which any doctor would have no objection to, would be to have clips put on your fallopian tubes; they can be removed later if you change your mind. Having this done physically removes the possiblity of an egg finding its way into your uterus, thus rendering you infertile. If you are infertile, 'fuck' all you want, you won't risk pregnancy.

I am saying that if you aren't prepared to risk getting pregnant you shouldn't have sex because if you don't want the pregnancy and can legally have an abortion, you likely will. To me, it is wrong to kill any innocent person, and even a one-celled zygote is a person. Therefore, to remove the possibility of murdering an innocent life, don't have sex.

It is irresponsible to just go around 'fucking,' not having any regard for the lives you create and destroy.

And by the way, I totally disagree with this statement:

Quote :

"2. We all have a right to get laid."

If that were true, you'd be leaving the door open for anyone who can't find smeone to willingly have sex with them to rape someone. I mean, they have the RIGHT to have sex, it isn't their fault no one was a willing participant.

[Edited on August 8, 2005 at 12:28 AM. Reason : semantics or something]

8/8/2005 12:26:48 AM

Quote :

"GrumpyGOP, you forgot the most important part..."just like you" "

Looks to me like I included it quite clearly.

That you do not want to have a child is of little importance to me. If you want to have sex and not have babies, then you have to use your birth control, and you have to do it properly. If you do that you will not have babies. You cannot also expect me to give you a Right To Kill card because you are too incompetent to use the stuff properly.

8/8/2005 12:27:28 AM

Quote :

"Hemophiliacs have the right to do the things that we do, but there are different consequences for them. Should the government now make it so that everyone has hemophilia, so that everyone will face the same set of consequences for their actions?"

^No, of course not, but if the government (why are we talking about the government?) had a way to end hemophilia, it'd be a shame to deny them it because they are naturally supposed to have hemophilia...

[Edited on August 8, 2005 at 12:29 AM. Reason : sss]

8/8/2005 12:27:37 AM

The government can end hemophilia by killing everyone that carries that gene. It would not be particularly difficult to do.

And it is, incidentally, exactly what you want to do.

[Edited on August 8, 2005 at 12:31 AM. Reason : remove unwanted babies by killing them all]

8/8/2005 12:29:09 AM