For example, certain powerful religious people will not even discuss the issue of the advancement of human stem cell research, due to their personal Religious convictions. However, human stem cell research needs to be questioned, examined, and recognized as a huge scientific breakthrough. The Stem Cell example is just one way Religion retards technological growth and development. Growing human body parts for medical purposes is definitely a morally sticky issue, and so Religion hinders our growth and experience with human stem cell research.

[Edited on June 3, 2006 at 6:07 PM. Reason : -]

6/3/2006 6:06:01 PM

I'm a Christian and I don't see anything wrong with using already dead fetuses. I would have a problem with incentive programs that could produce a scenario for human life to be bartered. I don't feel that way because I'm a Christian either.

Even without considering stem cells, there are many things we are not doing that could further the human race in terms of technology and life longevity, but there are some things we as a society will not allow.

6/3/2006 6:29:57 PM

Quote :

"there are some things we as a society will not allow."

True, and when those things are not allowed because of imaginary concerns, it's time for some members of society to re-evaluate why they believe certain things.

Quote :

"I wonder what type of personal growth and experience having religion hinders."

Understanding of being. Not being on the path to understanding the nature of your own being is a grave mistake, it lays a false foundation upon which to judge and evaluate all things.

6/4/2006 11:39:27 AM

^..................................in your opinion......

6/4/2006 1:30:48 PM

Quote :

"True, and when those things are not allowed because of imaginary concerns, it's time for some members of society to re-evaluate why they believe certain things."

Do you think it's ok for people to have morals as long as they are yours, or you think it is ok to have morals as long as they have them for the same reasons you do?

6/4/2006 2:58:06 PM

Quote :

"Besides, if you knew shit about shit, you'd know that Nietzsche was a Polack."

Meh, Poland might as well be East Lesser Germany. Was it even independent when he was born?

Quote :

"Christianity saw Rome through it's fall and locked Europe into a Dark Age. Our current knowledge of science, our current "enlightenment" is a result of the Renaissance, born of the loss of faith in Christianity."

And Islam, very similar in the fundamental areas that Nietzsche seems so angry with, managed to avert its people's Dark Ages and made them the global center for science and culture for centuries, to say nothing of the number of great scientists and thinkers over the years who have been religious to at least some extent.

But that's all besides the point. I'm saying that there are very, very few societies on Earth that have declined over the long term.

Quote :

"It's more than a basis, it's an analysis of cultures, their tendencies, and the religions that reflect them. Besides, his analysis is rooted in the fact that sin, redemption, and all of the other imaginary forces I've listed earlier don't exist, and an interpretation of nature and life in nature. "

The "fact?" Isn't it you that's always saying that such things are "unanswerable?"

Besides, unless you're doing him a grave disservice in your description of his points, it's already clear that his analysis of cultures leaves a great deal to be desired.

6/4/2006 3:04:13 PM

Quote :

"Do you think it's ok for people to have morals as long as they are yours, or you think it is ok to have morals as long as they have them for the same reasons you do?"

I've already stated many, many times what "good" morals are. You should get in the habit of reading stuff. I know you're actually trying to have a conversation now (as opposed to hurling passing insults at me), but we can hardly have a conversation if you don't pay attention to what I say.

Quote :

"And Islam, very similar in the fundamental areas that Nietzsche seems so angry with, managed to avert its people's Dark Ages and made them the global center for science and culture for centuries, to say nothing of the number of great scientists and thinkers over the years who have been religious to at least some extent. "

This thread isn't about Islam being a good religion, because it isn't. My claims about Islam vs. Christianity earlier in the thread were based on the "god on a cross" concept. Either you keep choosing to leave it out, or it was in the large bulk of my posts that you've obviously skipped. This isn't a typical "omf religion" thread -- you need to actually read this one before you fire off a knee-jerk reply.

Quote :

"The "fact?" Isn't it you that's always saying that such things are "unanswerable?""

The fact is, if these forces do exist, none of them intersect reality at any given point. If they did, they'd be detectable, or better yet theoretically detectable in a direct or indirect fashion. The fact that the question of their existence is meaningless and without an answer is exactly the grounds upon which its irrelevance is proven.

Quote :

"Besides, unless you're doing him a grave disservice in your description of his points, it's already clear that his analysis of cultures leaves a great deal to be desired."

Not clear by your arguments or anybody else's in this thread. You guys haven't even bothered to read and comprehend what has been presented, much less present a cogent argument.

When I made that claim about Islam earlier, it really grabbed TWW by the ankles and shook the bigots out of its pockets. Hilarious.

[Edited on June 4, 2006 at 6:35 PM. Reason : .]

6/4/2006 6:32:56 PM

I think out of the two of us you're the one who starts out with the passing insults my friend.

If I don't understand your incorrect opinion, perhaps you could rephrase it for me or quote yourself so I don't have to read through so much garbage?

You might not be able to tell, but I am a busy person.

Please answer the question directly and stop saying "read what I already said."

Thanks.

6/4/2006 6:44:07 PM

Quote :

"If I don't understand your incorrect opinion, perhaps you could rephrase it for me or quote yourself so I don't have to read through so much garbage?"

I'm sorry, that's not the way this works. You're going to have to buck up and spend the time on this thread if you want to get anything out of it. To try to participate in a discussion on a topic that you refuse to read and comprehend is asinine.

6/4/2006 6:47:49 PM

Quote :

"big·ot Audio pronunciation of "bigot" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bgt) n. One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ."

Don't need religion to shake out the bigots.

Incidently, I think it good easily be said that you also are a bigot.

6/4/2006 6:49:42 PM

Oh, I'm definitely a bigot. But these peoples' bigotry made them forget entire centuries of Muslim "enlightenment", which is pretty funny.

6/4/2006 6:54:53 PM

McDanger,

I've reread your posts and I've come to the same conclusion that inspired my rhetorical questions.
Thanks for tricking me into reading all the useless shit you typed again. You're very crafty.

6/4/2006 7:23:37 PM

Quote :

"you need to actually read this one before you fire off a knee-jerk reply."

And likewise to you.

I was not referring to your earlier talk about Islam. I was simply saying that for your example of a place where religion and developmental stagnation coincide, there was another place where the exact opposite happened.

6/4/2006 7:30:41 PM

Quote :

"And Islam, very similar in the fundamental areas that Nietzsche seems so angry with, managed to avert its people's Dark Ages and made them the global center for science and culture for centuries, to say nothing of the number of great scientists and thinkers over the years who have been religious to at least some extent."

Islam encouraged some sciences and discouraged others. Mathematics was one of the godly pursuits because it was fundamental to how the universe appeared to work. So, we use Arabic numerals and algebra, because they really are great. And then, their scientific advances slowed down and all but stopped. I don't know how they feel about stem cell research, but they never even made it that far, because a lot of scientific pursuits were stifled by the (baseless) constraints of the religion. Islam managed to delay its people's dark ages. They're still in the middle of them now.

Quote :

"But that's all besides the point. I'm saying that there are very, very few societies on Earth that have declined over the long term."

I think that depends on what you mean by "decline." In power, population, happiness, what?

[Edited on June 4, 2006 at 7:54 PM. Reason : .]

6/4/2006 7:51:18 PM

Quote :

"It is illogical to you. ok, we get it. It is logical to others. do you get that?"

Logic isn't subjective.

6/4/2006 11:48:10 PM

^not a woman. I'm done.

6/5/2006 12:36:27 AM

^^ I didn't say both could be right at the same time.

6/5/2006 5:43:16 PM

So why isn't anyone posting today in the thread about "Antichrist?"

6/6/2006 8:04:16 PM

Contrast, I have no idea why The Soap Box works the way it does. Well, I do have one idea; there's less arguing going on here than people would like to believe. It goes like this:

1. I feel this way.
2. Oh yeah, well I feel this way.
1. Interesting, I still feel this way.
2. Well, I still feel mostly the way I did before.
And then it's understood that everyone has shared and there's nothing more to say.

It's more about asserting than it is about arguing.

Sometimes it's good to go into a thread and post a bunch of bullshit just to get it back to the top and get people posting again.

6/6/2006 8:28:32 PM

I think that's the trend in most forums... So I will do something faux-daring and change my mind in a purely hypothetical sense:

Abrahamic religions actually are no damn good. Free from their constraints on our ability to think, the world would be a better place.

Discuss!

6/6/2006 8:37:48 PM

trying to get more pages out of this thread?

I still feel this way.

6/6/2006 10:40:02 PM

Nobody expected you to feel differently. You won't step outside of your carefully constructed and heavily guarded cage. You've locked up, thrown away the key, and you're damn proud of it. It's called faith.

6/6/2006 11:01:00 PM

your cage is called arrogance.

I hope I never visit.

[Edited on June 7, 2006 at 8:30 AM. Reason : .]

6/7/2006 8:30:18 AM

Faith is also arrogance.

6/7/2006 9:34:27 AM

I'm not exactly arrogant, I just place a great deal of importance in the methods I use. They're far from original, but they're fairly reasonable.

6/7/2006 4:11:44 PM

I guess we're more alike than we at first thought.

wanna make out?

6/7/2006 5:41:52 PM

Good point, Stimwalt.

I can't think of a more arrogant person than one who believes he knows the truth about the unknowable God.

6/7/2006 6:00:36 PM

I don't know how it is for the majority of Christians, but many believe to have a relationship with God and that God has spoken to him or her through the holy ghost.

I agree it would be arrogant to claim to have the definitive answer of whether God exists or not based purely on our limited knowledge and understanding of the universe.

6/7/2006 6:22:48 PM

Quote :

"I don't know how it is for the majority of Christians, but many believe to have a relationship with God and that God has spoken to him or her through the holy ghost."

This is called "proof by potency", meaning that you can not explain to me why I should believe until I believe.

Quote :

"I agree it would be arrogant to claim to have the definitive answer of whether God exists or not based purely on our limited knowledge and understanding of the universe."

This is why atheists are arrogant too. I'm not an atheist.

6/7/2006 9:16:30 PM

Quote :

"you can not explain to me why I should believe until I believe."

maybe thats how it really is....maybe??

6/7/2006 9:51:59 PM

No it really isn't.

When you make outrageous claims, you should have outstanding evidence.

The fact that I should have to willfully change my mental state, forcibly removing the need for proof and a reasonable explanation/argument to believe in something... it's a pathological state.

"If anyone can show me, and prove to me, that I am wrong in thought or deed, I will gladly change. I seek the truth, which never yet hurt anybody. It is only persistence in self-delusion and ignorance which does harm."

6/7/2006 10:44:42 PM

no...maybe it is...thats all im saying

6/7/2006 11:01:11 PM

gotta have faith g.

6/7/2006 11:02:45 PM

Quote :

"no...maybe it is...thats all im saying"

"Maybe" anything.

That's pretty weak justification, is this your last stand?

6/7/2006 11:13:09 PM

hey bro...im not making a stand...im just saying.,..maybe it is...that ok with you??

6/7/2006 11:14:33 PM

Things that "may" be should have some theoretical possibility.

There's no theoretical possibility of god being in any way relevant to our reality that is logically consistent. You're asking me to consider something as a possibility that doesn't even have a firm grounding in theory.

6/7/2006 11:18:21 PM

hey...what if your wrong??

6/7/2006 11:20:23 PM

Then show me and I'll change. Until then...

6/7/2006 11:20:45 PM

k...but im asking...what if you are?? ....what if you died and you were wrong this whole time about christianity??

6/7/2006 11:24:04 PM

Ahhhh, Pascal's wager...

I already addressed that in this thread in fact, at least tangentially.

You could also be wrong and still go to hell. Just because you've subscribed to a particular "don't go to hell" ideology doesn't mean it's correct.

6/7/2006 11:26:58 PM

haha...dude...im not trying to back you into anything....and you have no idea what i believe...in fact i worship zuess sooo...


you just come at this with a purely logic based argument....and loads of people dont prescribe to that....and i realize that those people are idiots in your mind...but still...you arent accomplishing anything...you think what you will...they will think what they will...

6/7/2006 11:30:40 PM

I'm just refuting your arguments, that's all.

However, people will believe what they will. Some people though will actually start to think.

6/7/2006 11:37:12 PM

i have not made any arguments....and indeed they will start to think

[Edited on June 7, 2006 at 11:38 PM. Reason : asdf]

6/7/2006 11:37:53 PM

Quote :

"I don't know how it is for the majority of Christians, but many believe to have a relationship with God and that God has spoken to him or her through the holy ghost. I agree it would be arrogant to claim to have the definitive answer of whether God exists or not based purely on our limited knowledge and understanding of the universe."

Right. But what I said was that it is arrogant to claim to know anything about God -- whether God exists, is male, is bipedal, created the world, wrote the Bible, created a son on Earth, is the only god, judges people at the time of their death, calls a certain people chosen, favors men, favors whites, favors heterosexuals, favors Italian fucking food -- It is arrogant to claim to have evidence of any of these.

6/7/2006 11:51:41 PM

"Hey I don't think there is a God and I don't think that there is no God."

"People who acknowledge that faith is different than logic and still have faith are in cages, are sheep, are brainwashed, and don't think."

Forgive me for saying so, but I see someone saying anything like these statements to be unreasonable.

That is all.

^Evidence? Who has evidence? I'd like to see it.

Quote :

"I don't know how it is for the majority of Christians, but many believe to have a relationship with God and that God has spoken to him or her through the holy ghost."

[Edited on June 7, 2006 at 11:56 PM. Reason : evidence,ha.]

6/7/2006 11:54:27 PM

Quote :

"Forgive me for saying so, but I see someone saying anything like these statements to be unreasonable."

Just because you see it that way doesn't lend you any credibility. If you've read and comprehended what I've posted on these boards countless times, you'd know there is no answer to "is there a God". It's a meaningless question. So really, to your credit, you COULDN'T provide me with evidence. To make the question answerable would be to admit your defeat.

6/8/2006 1:21:10 AM

Only the holy spirit can give you the evidence you need and that can only happen once you're ready to accept it.

For those who have that connection, it is all the evidence they need. For those who don't, they will never accept someone else's connection with the holy ghost as evidence and rightfully so.

[Edited on June 8, 2006 at 8:28 AM. Reason : .]

6/8/2006 8:25:55 AM

Listen to what you're saying.

If that isn't obvious bullshit then I don't know what is.

Faith is like Christianity's version of Dianetics. What you're saying is that I cannot feel an imaginary being's presence until I unhinge myself from reality and convince myself what I'm imagining is real.

Why would a god demand that people unseat their reason in order to reach Heaven? Why would he ask people to deny knowledge, to deny making reasonable judgements and valuations? I don't understand why god should be terrified of knowledge, reason, and science. In fact, I posit that the only systems of thought that have reason to fear the continued refinement of truth are systems that are incorrect. If you take the difference between reality and traditional and modernized Christian beliefs, there's quite a lot of extra baggage without justification, evidence, or in same cases, coherence.

6/8/2006 12:19:49 PM

Quote :

"Only the holy spirit can give you the evidence you need and that can only happen once you're ready to accept it. For those who have that connection, it is all the evidence they need. For those who don't, they will never accept someone else's connection with the holy ghost as evidence and rightfully so."

"If you don't get it, it's because you're not ready to get it, and that's perfectly understandable--you're just not enlightened like me. It's okay. I'm better than you because I have faith, but again, it's okay. Everything's okay. La dee da..."

6/8/2006 12:28:30 PM

Quote :

"Evidence? Who has evidence? I'd like to see it."

Evidence does not have to be physically manifested. Evidence is the whole body of information that indicates whether something is true or false. Christians claim that the holy spirit is their evidence, and while it's true that it can't be shown to anyone else, that's what it is -- the holy spirit is the information they have that indicates something about God. Only problem is, to claim that the holy spirit is real and is not just a temporary imbalance of DMT in your brain causing you to think of your own imagination as an external entity...

is bullshit.

The connection, as you call it, is a lie.

6/8/2006 1:56:18 PM