and modifying opinions = failure for conservatives

[Edited on August 31, 2006 at 4:48 PM. Reason : page 5 OMG FLIP FLOPS]

8/31/2006 4:48:06 PM

no it just depends on if your initial opinion was correct or not

8/31/2006 4:50:14 PM

because there's always a 'correct' opinion

8/31/2006 4:51:15 PM

on tangible issues there are usually right and wrong answers

8/31/2006 4:51:45 PM

there are answers that are more right or more wrong (and that's usually even dependent on the perspective). but i don't think there are many black and white issues.

8/31/2006 4:53:46 PM

Quote :

"TreeTwista10: a lack of response certainly doesnt strengthen your side of the argument"

If I felt it needed to be further strengthened, I'd strengthen it. Selling my capacity for extended debate short is laughable. I've assessed the cost/benefit here, and don't think I need to say much else.

Quote :

"Gamecat: The ISG is the group I cited before, whose final report's conclusions totally contradict your argument's central--and 100% speculative--thesis."

8/31/2006 4:53:49 PM

Quote :

"After six months searching for WMD, the ISG issued an Interim Progress Report on October 3, 2003. The team has found evidence of "WMD-related program activities""

Quote :

"the October 2003 report also includes discoveries of non-WMD programs banned by the U.N. and concealed during the IAEA and UNMOVIC inspections that began in 2002. The discoveries made by the ISG include a "clandestine network of laboratories . . . that contained equipment . . . suitable for continuing chemical biological weapons research" and vials of "live C botulinum Okra B from which a biological agent can be produced." "

Quote :

"On September 30, 2004, the ISG released the Duelfer Report, its final report on Iraq's WMD programs. The main points of the report are as follows: Iraq's main goal was to end sanctions while preserving the capability to reconstitute WMD production Iraq had intended to restart all banned weapons programs as soon as multilateral sanctions against it had been dropped, a prospect that the Iraqi government saw coming soon Smuggling was used by Iraq to rebuild as much of its WMD program as could be hidden from U.N. weapons inspectors. Iraq had an effective system for the procurement of items banned by sanctions"

and the addendum to the Duelfer Report

Quote :

""ISG was unable to complete its investigation and is unable to rule out the possibility that WMD was evacuated to Syria before the war." "

all by your boys at the ISG

8/31/2006 5:03:34 PM

a gentlmen I met at a trade show told be a huge military secret... the real reason we went to war in iraq BEFORE we go to war with Iran which I'm sorry to say is inivitable. If you look at this map you'll notice some countries that border Iran. 1) Iraq and 2) Afghanistan 3) Pakistan* and 4) Kuait* the two with * are realitivelly friendly too us and would more than likely help us out (though not directly) knock Iran down a peg or two. Iraq and Afg are the problems... In fact it might be argued that the whole reason the US was friends w/ Iraq long ago was to keep Iran in check and now the stakes are raised w/ them going nuke on us. Now I'm just kidding when I said this was a secret buy this is what this gentlemen told be and it seems logical- it also hasn't been denied by my uncle who is retired NSA. If all this makes sense I don't know why our government won't just say it directly, but I'm fairly sure Iran has gotten the message hence all it's activity in iraq and in UN. Please look at the map and think about this stategically (not just armies but influence)

8/31/2006 5:13:06 PM

Quote :

"If all this makes sense I don't know why our government won't just say it directly"

it does make sense but the government isnt going to directly say anything that could compromise our military strategies

8/31/2006 5:15:00 PM

^^ I commented on that back when we named the Axis of Evil states.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Survey_Group#Duelfer_Report

Quote :

"On September 30, 2004, the ISG released the Duelfer Report, its final report on Iraq's WMD programs. The main points of the report are as follows: - Iraq's main goal was to end sanctions while preserving the capability to reconstitute WMD production. - Iraq's WMD programs had decayed significantly since the end of the first Gulf War. - No senior Iraqi official interviewed by the ISG believed that Saddam had forsaken WMD forever. - Iraq had no deployable WMD of any kind as of March 2003 and had no production since 1991. - The ISG judged that in March 2003, Iraq would have had the ability to produce large quantities of Sulfur Mustard in 3-6 months, and large quantities of nerve agent in 2 years. - There was no proof of any biological weapons stocks since 1991. - Iraq's nuclear program was terminated in 1991, at which point micrograms of enriched uranium had been produced from a single test gas centrifuge. - Iraq had intended to restart all banned weapons programs as soon as multilateral sanctions against it had been dropped, a prospect that the Iraqi government saw coming soon. - Smuggling was used by Iraq to rebuild as much of its WMD program as could be hidden from U.N. weapons inspectors. - Iraq had an effective system for the procurement of items banned by sanctions. - Until March 2003, Saddam Hussein convinced his top military commanders that Iraq did indeed possess WMD that could be used against any U.S. invasion force, in order to prevent a coup over the prospects of fighting the U.S.-led Coalition without these weapons. - Iraq used procurement contracts allowed under the Oil for Food program to buy influence among U.N. Security Council member states including France, China, and Russia, as well as dozens of prominent journalists and anti-sanctions activists. - "The former Regime had no formal written strategy or plan for the revival of WMD after sanctions. Neither was there an identifiable group of WMD policy makers or planners separate from Saddam. Instead, his lieutenants understood WMD revival was his goal from their long association with Saddam and his infrequent, but firm, verbal comments and directions to them." - "Iran was the pre-eminent motivator of this policy. All senior level Iraqi officials considered Iran to be Iraq's principal enemy in the region. The wish to balance Israel and acquire status and influence in the Arab world were also considerations, but secondary."[5]"

Quote :

"TreeTwista10: and the addendum to the Duelfer Report"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Survey_Group#March_2005_Report_Addenda

Quote :

"In March 2005 Duelfer added an addenda to the original report, covering five topics: - Prewar Movement of WMD Material Out of Iraq, stating "ISG judged that it was unlikely that an official transfer of WMD material from Iraq to Syria took place" but also acknowledging that "ISG was unable to complete its investigation and is unable to rule out the possibility that WMD was evacuated to Syria before the war." - Iraqi Detainees, concluding "the WMD investigation has gone as far as feasible. ... there is no further purpose in holding many of these detainees". - Residual Proliferation Risks: People, concluding "former WMD program participants are most likely to seek employment in the benign civil sector, either in Iraq or elsewhere ... However, because a single individual can advance certain WMD activities, it remains an important concern". - Residual Pre-1991 CBW Stocks in Iraq, concluding "any remaining chemical munitions in Iraq do not pose a militarily significant threat ... ISG has not found evidence to indicate that Iraq did not destroy its BW weapons or bulk agents". - Residual Proliferation Risk: Equipment and Materials, concluding "Iraq’s remaining chemical and biological physical infrastructure does not pose a proliferation concern". In media interviews before the addenda were published, officials went further on the important question of the possible smuggling of WMD to Syria, saying they had not seen any information indicating that WMD or significant amounts of components and equipment were transferred from Iraq to neighboring Syria or elsewhere. [6]"

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/report/2004/isg-final-report/

So...what was the problem with anything I've said? Here's your ammo. Fire away.

[Edited on August 31, 2006 at 5:36 PM. Reason : ...]

8/31/2006 5:35:30 PM

so basically you only pay attention to the parts of the report that fit your argument

8/31/2006 5:41:05 PM

Ditto.

I suppose I just ignore a lot less of the evidence than you do.

[Edited on August 31, 2006 at 5:42 PM. Reason : ...]

8/31/2006 5:41:31 PM

so if we do the same things with the report, just pick different points, and i'm an idiot retard

what does that make you?

8/31/2006 5:44:01 PM

Less of a retard for ignoring less of the reports.

8/31/2006 5:44:59 PM

but a retard nonetheless

8/31/2006 5:46:09 PM

what a fruitful discussion this has become.

[Edited on August 31, 2006 at 5:47 PM. Reason : thanks treetwista!]

8/31/2006 5:47:26 PM

yeah i did it all by myself

8/31/2006 5:49:32 PM

No shit. It's like he's hell bent on "cornering" me into admitting a lack of omniscience. Hell of a debater that TreeTwista10.

[Edited on August 31, 2006 at 6:05 PM. Reason : zzzzzzzzzzz]

8/31/2006 6:01:39 PM

until you stop portraying yourself as omniscient, you are asking for it

8/31/2006 6:02:47 PM

The omniscient don't ask questions, retard.

8/31/2006 6:05:48 PM

thanks for the tip, fellow retard

8/31/2006 6:07:02 PM

I have to know. How have I portrayed myself as omniscient?

[Edited on August 31, 2006 at 6:17 PM. Reason : I'd love an after action report.]

8/31/2006 6:15:52 PM

Quote :

"[quote]In March 2005 Duelfer added an addenda to the original report, covering five topics: - Prewar Movement of WMD Material Out of Iraq, stating "ISG judged that it was unlikely that an official transfer of WMD material from Iraq to Syria took place" but also acknowledging that "ISG was unable to complete its investigation and is unable to rule out the possibility that WMD was evacuated to Syria before the war.""

So the lack of proof that Iraq moved WMD to material to Syria is the evidence that WMD material was moved from Iraq to Syria? Is that TreeTwista's argument?

[Edited on September 2, 2006 at 11:08 PM. Reason : .]

9/2/2006 11:07:52 PM

Yes. That is apparently his central thesis.

9/4/2006 7:08:59 AM