^ There's really not enough information in that article to determine what actually went on. It sounds more like a right-wing reporting bias.

They make it seem like she was trying to make people feel guilty about thanksgiving, when she merely linked to a page that she didn't author, that considered as a small point the possibility that some native americans might mourn thanksgiving. Without seeing the memo, you can't judge her intentions, at least not as harshly as they are painting her there.

11/26/2007 3:10:51 AM

^ A typical left-wing, anti-Fox, knee-jerk defense. Do you dispute the quotations? Yes or no?

Here's another source for you:

Quote :

"On Nov. 8, Caprice D. Hollins, director of the Seattle Schools Department of Equity and Race, distributed a letter to the staff of Seattle Public Schools that stated, in part: 'With so many holidays approaching, we want to again remind you that Thanksgiving can be a particularly difficult time for many of our Native students.' She referred the staff to the Web site oyate.org/resources/shortthanks.html , operated by an outside group that promotes Indian culture. The Oyate site contains an article titled 'Deconstructing the Myths of the first Thanksgiving.' It attempts to dismantle all we have read in history books about the feast of the first thanksgiving in 1621, of the religious freedoms sought by Pilgrims on the Mayflower. It offers 11 'myths,' including that Thanksgiving is a happy time, claiming: 'For many Indian people, "Thanksgiving" is a time of mourning, of remembering how a gift of generosity was rewarded by theft of land and seed corn, extermination of many from disease and gun, and near total destruction of many more from forced assimilation. ... Thanksgiving is a bitter reminder of 500 years of betrayal returned for friendship.' That cultural mishmash must not take the place of gratitude we should proclaim on this day. 'Mayflower' by Nathaniel Philbrick, a new book profiled in last Sunday's Columbian, appears to take a more moderate course."

http://www.columbian.com/opinion/news/2007/11/11212007_Dont-stomp-on-all-of-our-festivities.cfm

11/26/2007 3:48:32 AM

That article just points out that some NA's are still pissed that the white man took their lands. I don't see how it has anything to do with a left-wing media or anything.

11/26/2007 7:29:10 AM

It also doesn't have anything to do with the original intent of this thread. But I guess if 30-40% of your post content is trying to get liberals stirred up over nothing, you'll just stick the new material in an old thread so the users will be sure to click.

11/26/2007 7:34:12 AM

^ It sure worked for you, didn't it, dickhead?

11/26/2007 11:43:28 AM

This finally proves that too much of a good thing is bad. In this case too much education turns otherwise patriotic loyal conservative Americans into bleeding heart liberals. WTF.

We should discourage higher education because it appears reaching the higher echelons of acadamia creates an environment where individuals start questioning the government instead of supporting our president and helping with the fight against the terrorists.

11/26/2007 12:17:06 PM

Quote :

"We should discourage higher education because it appears reaching the higher echelons of acadamia creates an environment where individuals start questioning the government instead of supporting our president and helping with the fight against the terrorists."

what he said

11/26/2007 12:23:09 PM

I hate that I am even responding to something posted that has nothing to do with this thread but I don't see why the true history and the modern concept of Thanksgiving can not coexist Yes, a group of fundamentalist Christians came here and pillaged the land from the natives and introduced all kinds of diseases and non-native plant and animal species; but that isn't the case today. White people got their land and they can enjoy their turkey, football and family. So everyone wins, right?

11/26/2007 1:09:30 PM

^

Well its kinda like how we berate Nazi Germany for the holocaust, the ethnic killings in Eastern Europe and southeast asia, Saddam gassing the kurds, but view ourselves as the "good guys" all to hasty to forget that we pretty much desecrated an entire race in order to build our country.

11/26/2007 1:17:44 PM

Quote :

"A typical left-wing, anti-Fox, knee-jerk defense. Do you dispute the quotations? Yes or no?"

Do I support what quotations?

No one has posted the actual memo so far (I couldn't find it in a casual google search) and all the articles focus only on myth 11, and nothing else (which is disingenuous, if it wasn't the focus of the memo). It's also a technically true statement to say that many native americans lament thanksgiving, considering the site hosting the myth 11 thing is a native american site.

If it's anti-Fox to critically evaluate news to sift out the bias, then send me my anti-Fox t-shirt.

11/26/2007 2:10:43 PM

I think of all those far left wing professors in the business schools and engineering programs that graduate thousands of people from NCSU each year. Oh right.

11/26/2007 2:24:06 PM

academia is the only place the leftists from the McCarthy red scare era were/are able to get work at all. then they've hired their own.

i need to find this book, from Hobb's seminar on the 60's it covers SDS and such and details where all of them went after the 'movement' died


on a unrelated note, redistribution of wealth is a horrible idea and unconstitutional

you've done well for yourself! let me take a good chunk of that and give to someone who sucks at life!

11/27/2007 3:55:02 PM

Quote :

"academia is the only place the leftists from the McCarthy red scare era were/are able to get work at all. then they've hired their own."

And we have the best universities in the world, by far. Coincidence?

11/27/2007 4:04:32 PM

Quote :

"you've done well for yourself! let me take a good chunk of that and give to someone who sucks at life"

This is a pretty narrow minded way of looking at the world.

What about those that gain their excessive profits through shady market manipulation, preying on other people, people like Paris Hilton, or use "friends" in power to acquire their wealth. I think those that work hard for their money deserve their profits; but there are people too that did not and should pay their fair share of taxes.

ExXon, Microsoft, Haliburton; guys these companies shouldn't have to pay more income taxes they worked hard for their money!! David Lesar put in a lot of effort to sit through meetings with dick cheney discussing how much tax payer money he wanted for $3000 toilet brushes.

On a last note, no I do not support the socialist green Utopian paradise that a lot of leftists encourage. A balance is needed btw preventing aristoocrats from repressing the commoners through aggressive acquisition of wealth and capital; while at the same time allowing economic conditions that allow innovation and competitive capitalistic competition to flourish



[Edited on November 27, 2007 at 4:29 PM. Reason : a]

11/27/2007 4:22:09 PM

^x5 A link has already been listed by me that was the main source of concern. It was in the editorial from The Columbian--if you'd bothered to read it.

http://oyate.org/resources/shortthanks.html

11/27/2007 4:35:33 PM

^ That's not the memo the person sent.

From what I understand, she sent out a letter, than contained a link to that site, not the site itself.

Maybe it was something like

"hey guys, check this out, it has some myths about thanksgiving that maybe we should be aware of: http:/www.whatever"

Nothing so far that i've seen has posted what the lady actually said, or how it was actually portrayed, so I don't see why there is enough information to string her up, or to even make as big a deal as the right is apparently making about this.

11/27/2007 5:25:21 PM

I like to defend academia, which have a tough job trying to provide quality instruction without being controversial, BUT...

Quote :

"Myth #1: “The First Thanksgiving” occurred in 1621. Fact: No one knows when the “first” thanksgiving occurred. People have been giving thanks for as long as people have existed."

Yeah, that's why we specify which one we're celebrating...

Quote :

"Myth #2: The people who came across the ocean on the Mayflower were called Pilgrims. Fact: The Plimoth settlers did not refer to themselves as “Pilgrims.” "

Who the fuck cares what they called themselves. Most of us know "pilgrims" is a term designated by historians for this particular group of people. Besides, the Indians were named after an ASIAN civilization. No need to nit-pick.

Quote :

"Myth #3: The colonists came seeking freedom of religion in a new land. Fact: The colonists were not just innocent refugees from religious persecution... their belief system taught them that any land that was “unimproved” was “wild” and theirs for the taking; that the people who lived there were roving heathens with no right to the land. "

Illusions of ethnic superiority persist even today. To condemn the Pilgrims for forcibly seizing lands belongs to a less developed culture they didn't understand constitutes monumental ignorance.

Quote :

"Myth #4: When the “Pilgrims” landed, they first stepped foot on “Plymouth Rock.”"

Plymouth Rock is part of a story for kids in elementary school. [B]Nobody cares where they ACTUALLY landed.[/b]

Quote :

"Myth #7: The Pilgrims invited the Indians to celebrate the First Thanksgiving."

Myth huh? Here's some facts for you:

Quote :

"The most detailed description of the "First Thanksgiving" comes from Edward Winslow from A Journal of the Pilgrims at Plymouth, in 1621: "Our harvest being gotten in, our governor sent four men on fowling, that so we might after a special manner rejoice together after we had gathered the fruit of our labors. They four in one day killed as much fowl as, with a little help beside, served the company almost a week. At which time, among other recreations, we exercised our arms, many of the Indians coming amongst us, and among the rest their greatest king Massasoit, with some ninety men, whom for three days we entertained and feasted, and they went out and killed five deer, which they brought to the plantation and bestowed upon our governor, and upon the captain, and others. And although it be not always so plentiful as it was at this time with us, yet by the goodness of God, we are so far from want that we often wish you partakersof our plenty."

http://www.history.com/minisite.do?content_type=Minisite_Generic&content_type_id=872&display_order=1&mini_id=1083

Quote :

"Myth #8: The Pilgrims provided the food for their Indian friends. "

A trivial myth at best, and a non-existent myth at worst. Isn't it true that the Indians saved the Pilgrims by helping them grow corn and producing a good harvest? Yeah, I'm Ok with saying the Indians saved the Pilgrim's asses and merely ate the fruits of their own labor.

Quote :

"Myth #9: The Pilgrims and Indians feasted on turkey, potatoes, berries, cranberry sauce, pumpkin pie, and popcorn. "

Wait... they didn't have cranberry sauce?

Quote :

"Myth #10: The Pilgrims and Indians became great friends."

Thank you for enlightening those of us who are delightfully naive, tremendously ignorant, and/or spectacularly stupid. Some of us did pay attention in 8th grade history class...

Quote :

"Myth #11: Thanksgiving is a happy time. Fact: For many Indian people, “Thanksgiving” is a time of mourning, of remembering how a gift of generosity was rewarded by theft of land and seed corn, extermination of many from disease and gun, and near total destruction of many more from forced assimilation. As currently celebrated in this country, “Thanksgiving” is a bitter reminder of 500 years of betrayal returned for friendship."

Oh come the fuck on. Celebrating a rare act of friendship between two vastly different cultures is a good thing. Pissing on people's parade b/c you can't get over the fact that people have been and still are cruel, ignorant bastards is an exercise in futility.



[Edited on November 27, 2007 at 5:50 PM. Reason : [Edited on November 27, 2007 at 5:46 PM. Reason : d]]

11/27/2007 5:45:38 PM

^ Pretty good. Here's yet another outrageous incident:

A Conservative Student’s Rude Awakening at UNC-Chapel Hill

Quote :

"Like most prospective college students, I expected to 'find myself' in college. I didn’t have a clear idea of what that meant at the time, but having been politically active in high school, I wanted college to challenge my principles and make me defend them. I hoped I would take classes with professors who would make me re-examine my perspective on the world. I went to the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Although UNC is highly respected in this state and others, many native North Carolinians jokingly insist that Chapel Hill is not a part of our state. Some call it the 'People’s Republic of Chapel Hill,' poking fun at this college town’s liberal reputation. Despite this, I packed my bags and moved my life just an hour down the road — but a world away. I was able to accept my liberal roommate from San Francisco, the protests in 'the Pit,' and the homeless men on Franklin Street. What bothered me was what was happening in the classroom. My ideas were not being 'challenged' as I had imagined; instead, they were being attacked head-on. My first semester at UNC, I took a history course in which I was asked to write weekly short papers comparing our readings with current events and sometimes offering policy suggestions. Week after week, I was discouraged when I would get back my grades: C, C+, D+, and so they went. I always did my readings and worked hard on my papers, and I couldn’t figure out why I was earning such poor grades. As a mere freshman, I concluded that college must have been more difficult than I’d imagined and that I was simply not working hard enough. One day after class, a fellow classmate approached me in the elevator; she said, as I recall it, 'From our class discussions, I get the feeling that we have some of the same ideas. You know, conservative ideas. How are your grades on these papers? Mine are terrible. Do you think our low grades have something to do with being a conservative?' I hadn’t ever considered that I was being punished for my conservatism because up until that point in my life, everyone had always encouraged me to freely explore ideas and come to my own conclusions. My classmate had sparked my curiosity, so I went home and looked over my papers. To my amazement, nearly every even remotely conservative statement I had made in my papers was covered in red. My ideas about free markets, deregulation, and individualism had all been crossed out, circled, or struck through. These marks were rarely accompanied by words, but occasionally my graduate student instructor would scribble 'that’s not really true' on my paper. It didn’t bother me that my instructor disagreed with me — he’s certainly entitled to his own beliefs — but it did bother me that my grades reflected our ideological disagreements. I knew better than to go to office hours and accuse my instructor of ideological discrimination. Instead, I experimented. My papers in the next few weeks were bad, but the grades were good. Instead of offering serious solutions to problems such as poverty, education, and the environment, I personally attacked President Bush and bashed the 'greedy conservatives' in Congress. My shift from analytical, yet conservative, papers to rash and political ones earned me B’s and even a couple of A’s, instead of the C’s I had been getting. This change was both shocking and disheartening. I realized that college, which is often thought to be a place of free inquiry, was going to be much more restrictive than I had thought. That history course was the most extreme example of classroom bias that I experienced in my three years at Carolina (I graduated a year early), but there were countless essays, papers, and exams where my conservative ideas were under severe scrutiny. A noticeably higher standard was applied to conservative ideas than to liberal ones. In academia, conservative ideas are presumed to be untrue until you prove them, while liberal ideas are presumed to be true until disproven. In most cases, the grade differences would be small, maybe a B-plus instead of an A-minus. You can’t reasonably argue with a professor for such a small difference in grades, and most students don’t. This difference may seem insignificant, but these slightly lower grades accumulate over the course of a semester, or even a college career. It is still entirely possible for a student with conservative views to do well at UNC, but it is definitely more difficult to have your ideas graded on their merits, not on the opinion of the professor. While I truly believe most professors have no agenda, their personal beliefs do affect the difference between that B-plus and an A-minus. By no means do I blame every bad grade I got at UNC on liberal professors. Admittedly, most of them were my fault — but some of them were not."

http://www.johnlocke.org/acrobat/cjPrintEdition/cj-nov2007-web.pdf

11/28/2007 3:23:06 AM

What's more outrageous is that such a mediocre article can be put into print. Oh wait, nearly every article in that newspaper you posted is conservative! I wonder if any liberals tried to write articles for it? BIAS BIAS


Anyway, I've heard several students claim this. I even had a teacher that some people in the class tried to say this about. I exchanged papers with some of them so they could see what I did right and I could see what they did wrong. It had nothing to do with the ideas they wrote about, it had to do with the fact that they were shitty writers. The author above is a mediocre writer at best and I'd be hard pressed to give his article anything above a C in a class. What's a C mean? Average, mediocre. When you start making A's and B's standard then you change their meaning. I personally enjoyed taking the classes where the teachers made C's the average and made you challenge yourself to get A's or B's. And I didn't make shoddy excuses up when I got mediocre grades in those classes either, I simply tried harder.

11/28/2007 7:34:36 AM

Quote :

"Illusions of ethnic superiority persist even today. To condemn the Pilgrims for forcibly seizing lands belongs to a less developed culture they didn't understand constitutes monumental ignorance."

Quote :

"Oh come the fuck on. Celebrating a rare act of friendship between two vastly different cultures is a good thing. Pissing on people's parade b/c you can't get over the fact that people have been and still are cruel, ignorant bastards is an exercise in futility. "

So it OK what we did to the indians over the 100's of years of American expansion?? Maybe we can shrug off the Nazi Holocaust as Germans forcibly ethnic cleansing a culture they did not understand.
If blacks can still bitch about slavery 150 years later, which without they would be getting AIDS and dying in civil wars in Africa; then I have no problem with the native Americans
mourning and not being good little Americans when it comes to celebrating thanksgiving. I mean we did pretty much eradicate an entire race of people; plunder/take their lands; and rape their women over the previous centuries.


^^
How could you not now UNC is very liberal before attending. Either way unless you are writing pro-Nazi shit , stuff that would make the KKK, or RAF proud; I have a hard time believing a professor would discredit point on an essay for having a contrasting political view.

11/28/2007 10:11:29 AM

^^ Nice try. But the student at issue was being graded on specifically desired content--or lack thereof--not syntax. The comments from the grader such as "that's not really true" have more to do with a position taken by the writer than "shitty" writing. In addition, (1) the type of corrections you're referring to would likely involve mostly proofreader's marks, and (2) the student at issue admitted that most of the bad grades he received prior to graduating were his fault--but not all of them.

^ It was a TA doing the grading, not a professor. Did you even bother to read the article before you spasmodically defended the incident in question?

11/28/2007 2:05:30 PM

Quote :

"(1) the type of corrections you're referring to would likely involve mostly proofreader's marks"

Not if they were unsubstantiated arguments or arguments that relied on logical fallacies. I don't know about UNC, but I know for a fact that at NCSU many History teachers will destroy your grade if your argument is weak.

He should provide a link to his graded papers for proof.

Anyway, I have a hard time believing any student that didn't bring the issue up directly with the teacher and then went around with other students bitching about how the teacher grades. There is a problem with the student there, not the teacher.

11/28/2007 2:17:32 PM

^ Yeah, I thought you would post some crap like that. So, how would you suggest that the writer at issue support these positions?

Quote :

"Instead of offering serious solutions to problems such as poverty, education, and the environment, I personally attacked President Bush and bashed the 'greedy conservatives' in Congress."

When last I checked, ad hominem attacks were still considered logical fallacies. Yet, the writer's grades improved when he offered these trinkets. How do you explain that, hmm?

[Edited on November 28, 2007 at 2:30 PM. Reason : .]

11/28/2007 2:29:29 PM

I really can't explain it if you accept what the author wrote as 100% truth, which I don't. I cannot imagine any professor acting in such a way, and I've had some pretty liberal professors (and conservative as well). I think the author of this piece is playing to the audience he is writing to and probably giving us a fishermans tale about his experience with this class.

11/28/2007 2:33:59 PM

^ Same here.

^^ Maybe it's because Bush's policies really do suck when it comes to everything and merely pointing that out was a better solution than anything he was offering before.

Quote :

"In academia, conservative ideas are presumed to be untrue until you prove them, while liberal ideas are presumed to be true until disproven"

Yeah, duh. Because conservative ideas maintain the status quo whether it's good or bad. Liberal ideas are idealistic. If a conservative idea is good, then it has evidence it's true. If a liberal idea is good, it doesn't necessarily have real-world experience to back it up, but it's supposed to be better than the current conservative idea.

11/28/2007 2:56:38 PM

Quote :

"And we have the best universities in the world, by far. Coincidence?"

that's akin to relating the cost of gas to car radios....

reason we have the best universities (taken as a whole) is $$ and investment in them, not the faculty so much.... the parts of most of the universities that makes them good is the science / engineering part, not really the parts affected by the leftists

11/28/2007 3:29:01 PM

^^^ For the last time, it was the TA, not the fucking professor--TRY READING THE OPINION PIECE!!!1

^^ That's so fucking stupid, I'm not even going to deal with it. JESUS!!!1

[Edited on November 28, 2007 at 3:30 PM. Reason : .]

11/28/2007 3:30:12 PM

My point is if the kid had a problem with his grade he should take it up with the teacher. It doesn't matter if a TA is grading it or not. Teachers usually go over what their TA grades anyhow.

11/28/2007 3:36:01 PM

^ Have you been a TA?

11/28/2007 3:45:37 PM

Being a TA is not relevant to understanding how things work in general.

11/28/2007 3:47:15 PM

Quote :

"Teachers usually go over what their TA grades anyhow."

Experience as a TA is relative to this statement. How do you know this? Can you provide any evidence of this position?

11/28/2007 3:53:35 PM

Yes, in more cases than not the teachers signed off on anything other than daily grades for the classes I had TA's in.

It was always the case, and explicitly stated, that any disputes should be taken to the teacher.

11/28/2007 3:55:36 PM

^ The grade in question was a weekly grade, and I can confirm--since I have five semesters' experience as a TA and with other TAs--that those are overwhelmingly not checked. FYI.

11/28/2007 3:58:23 PM

In that case it is entirely up to the student to address the issue with the teacher. Do you not agree?


I mean, I paid for my education with hard earned money (and debt!) and expect to get what I deserve. I take as a personal offense if someone tries to take my money and throw it away, and letting someone give you a bad grade maliciously is just that.

11/28/2007 4:00:42 PM

double post

[Edited on November 28, 2007 at 4:02 PM. Reason : .]

11/28/2007 4:02:28 PM

Yes, he could have taken it up with the professor--and he may have suffered even lower grades as a consequence. Look, man, this has happened to me. Please don't pretend that it doesn't ever happen.

I think some professors view it as Whac-A-Mole. You stick your head up; you get "othered," which is a term for what happens when some people deal with supposedly "difficult" people that may not actually be difficult; and you suffer the consequences. Often it's not an A to an F type of reduction, but just enough to make it hurt. In the worst cases, the "punishment" moves beyond the academic into the disciplinary realm.

I'm telling you that it happens and I've seen it.

11/28/2007 4:09:08 PM

I'm sure it happens sometimes, on both sides of the political spectrum. I don't think it's common NOR right for either side to do it though.

11/28/2007 4:11:38 PM

^ Well, we can certainly agree that it's not right for "either side" to grade unfairly. But I'm not aware of a rash of right-wing incidents of this sort, are you? If you have this information, please enlighten me--but there is an organization and Web site that deals primarily with left-wing incidents of this sort, since leftists are overwhelmingly committing these types of violations.

http://www.thefire.org/

11/28/2007 4:22:13 PM

11/28/2007 4:26:15 PM

11/29/2007 4:47:36 AM

I have a hard time understanding how this guy's anecdote proves anything. He did not site a single example from papers that he wrote but rather gave us a "Gawsh y'all, they ain't nice to us conservatives here". The dude was making all of these bad grades yet seemed to graduate a year early. Hmmm.

Quote :

"Yet another Sand in the Vagina moment brought to you by hooksaw"

11/29/2007 7:44:37 AM

Quote :

"since I have five semesters' experience as a TA"

Crap. How long are you planning to take getting a masters?

11/29/2007 8:22:07 AM

^^ Please stop the personal attack on me and trolling any thread that I post in.

^ That's none of your concern, and your post has nothing to do with the post at issue or the thread topic. Please stop the personal attack on me.

BTW, I find it damned peculiar that some of you are willing to accept specific experience in a given area--such as Duke's experience with waterboarding--if you agree with the user's position on a particular issue. But if you disagree with a user's position, you view his experience as invalid or you somehow diminish that experience. Damned peculiar.

[Edited on November 30, 2007 at 12:41 PM. Reason : .]

11/30/2007 12:38:14 PM

Student Sues Teacher For Anti-Christian Comments

Quote :

"SANTA ANA, Calif. -- A high school student and his parents have filed a lawsuit against a teacher, accusing him of making offensive comments in class about Christianity. The lawsuit filed Wednesday in federal court in Santa Ana accuses teacher James Corbett of demonstrating 'a sense of hostility toward religion' that caused Christian students at Capistrano Valley High School to 'feel ostracized and treated as second-class citizens.' Chad Farnan, 16, claims his constitutional rights were violated and wants Corbett removed from the classroom. 'The teacher is a representative of the state and the Constitution requires government neutrality toward religion,' attorney Jennifer Monk said. 'We will not seek damages if the teacher is removed.' It wasn't immediately known if Corbett had retained a lawyer. Principal Tom Ressler described Corbett as a solid teacher who has been with the Capistrano Unified School District for more than 15 years. 'It's really premature to say anything about this,' he said. 'People can make allegations all they want; we have to see the reality and context of what was said.' Among the statements the lawsuit contends Corbett said to students include 'when you put on your Jesus glasses, you can't see the truth'; religion is not 'connected with morality'; and suggested that churchgoers are more likely to commit rape and murder. Chad Farnan said he taped the teacher's lectures with a tape recorder in plain sight on his backpack [emphasis added]. 'I'm not sure whether he saw me,' Farnan said. 'He's against Christianity and bashes it all the time. He's been indoctrinating us and not teaching the class; we don't need to be hearing his political views during school time when we should be learning.' Farnan said he would remain in school but stay out of Corbett's class until the lawsuit is settled. Capristrano Valley High School is in Mission Viejo, Calif., about 60 miles north of San Diego."

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/education/14844657/detail.html?rss=dgo&psp=news

12/18/2007 1:26:16 PM

are the rolly eyes there because it's a retarded lawsuit

because they should be

12/18/2007 1:30:23 PM

Quote :

" "

12/18/2007 1:31:08 PM

Ah, it took only about four minutes for someone to use the word "retarded." Brilliant commentary.[/sarcasm]

12/18/2007 1:34:29 PM

^^^

12/18/2007 1:34:57 PM

so... how pro-litigious are you exactly?

maybe you and john edwards should get together and have a powwow

12/18/2007 1:35:59 PM

Quote :

"When you put on your Muhammad glasses, you can't see the truth'; religion is not 'connected with morality'; and suggested that mosquegoers are more likely to commit rape and murder."

12/18/2007 1:53:52 PM