will be struck down before it goes into effect

4/29/2010 1:44:29 AM

^I agree.

However, I will say that I've been schooled in how they craftily worded this thing. What's been reported (and what I originally thought they were proposing) versus what's actually in the bill are two very different things. It still amounts to racial profiling though--just not as horrific as I originally imagined.

Even after reading some parts of the law, I still missed the actual meaning. For example, I just read a bit about "solely" in this part:

Quote :

" 30 A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, 31 CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY NOT SOLELY 32 CONSIDER RACE, COLOR OR NATIONAL ORIGIN IN IMPLEMENTING THE REQUIREMENTS OF 33 THIS SUBSECTION EXCEPT TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY THE UNITED STATES OR 34 ARIZONA CONSTITUTION. "

They're practically admitting to racial profiling with that word. You can't use race if race is all you use...but race + some other thing (?) = A-OK standard... Is this how the federal government words their immigration stuff as well?

[Edited on April 29, 2010 at 2:22 AM. Reason : http://www.newsweek.com/id/237019]

4/29/2010 2:03:16 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4f9zR5yzY

white privilege

[Edited on April 29, 2010 at 5:18 AM. Reason : ]

4/29/2010 5:06:55 AM

Hey you know what happens if you're caught being in Mexico illegally? Two years in jail.

Hmmmm...sounds like at the least we should just match their law. And for good measure throw'em in a jail with conditions identical to a Mexican prison.

4/29/2010 8:25:00 AM

^ you’re right. The US should strive to be more like Mexico.

4/29/2010 9:15:13 AM

Sheriff Joe Arpaio (who I have no FUCKING CLUE why CNN is having him on) basically said on CNN that they could come up with any reason to arrest someone if they couldn't prove that the person wasn't illegal anyway.

So, yes, this is a beaner hunt.

4/29/2010 9:20:30 AM

Quote :

"The US should strive to be more like Mexico."

4/29/2010 9:22:10 AM

My solution to this problem is to give Arizona back to Mexico.

It would certainly solve Arizona's "illegal immigrant" problem.

4/29/2010 9:25:56 AM

my solution is for all non-native americans to just pack their crap and move to europe

4/29/2010 9:28:38 AM

Quote :

"^^ lol are you serious? You're going to tell a bunch of kids who barely graduated high school to arrest illegal immigrants"

Are you serious? We allow these same people to arrest murderers.

Isnt it amazing that the arguement is basically against assuming that everyone who looks mexican is illegal. (which is the wrong thing to do) Yet, its perfectly acceptable to assume that every cop is an idiot who barely graduated high school and a bigot.

4/29/2010 9:41:57 AM

As opposed to you, who assume that every police officer is a shining beacon of trust and liberty, who would never abuse his power, and that every Latino in Arizona is a bloodsucking welfare queen.

4/29/2010 9:46:27 AM

How many people have actually read the law, and how many people just starting screaming about it as soon as they were instructed by their political leaders to be outraged? If the objection is that cops are going to abuse their power, they already do that with every law on the book. I just don't understand how the immediate consensus from the left has been "this law is racist." Do you all really come to that conclusion on your own, upon reading the entire law? Does the law say "arrest anyone that looks Hispanic"?

For the record, I support unlimited legal immigration. It makes no sense to have a bunch of undocumented people in the country. The disturbing thing is that some of you are completely willing to use racism, which is a serious problem, as a way to pit one group of people against another. Give yourself a pat on the back.

4/29/2010 11:04:39 AM

Quote :

"A workable temporary-visa program would allow border agents to concentrate their efforts on intercepting real criminals and terrorists at the border. It would also reduce the temptation to hire illegal workers, in turn reducing the need to raid workplaces and impose national ID cards, employment verification systems, and other burdens on American citizens. Allowing more legal workers to enter the country would also boost the productive capacity of our economy by allowing important sectors to expand, creating more middle-class employment opportunities for Americans. A 2009 Cato Institute study predicted that a sufficient temporary-worker program would boost the real income of U.S. households by $180 billion a year. A January study by the Center for American Progress came to a similar conclusion. Enforcing a flawed immigration system has wasted tax dollars, frustrated the public, and created an underground labor force living in a legal twilight zone. The answer is comprehensive reform offering earned legalization to the millions of undocumented workers already here, temporary visas to new workers to meet our future labor needs, and sensible enforcement aimed at the remaining small minority that refuses to work within the new system. --Daniel Griswold is director of the Center for Trade Policy Studies at the Cato Institute"

[Edited on April 29, 2010 at 11:14 AM. Reason : .]

4/29/2010 11:14:06 AM

Quote :

"As opposed to you, who assume that every police officer is a shining beacon of trust and liberty, who would never abuse his power, and that every Latino in Arizona is a bloodsucking welfare queen. "

And Ive said that where exactly? I think you should give more credibitlity on those who havent broken the law. The ones who abuse thier power should face the consequences. Just as those who have entered illegally. (just as other countries do)

4/29/2010 11:21:38 AM

Quote :

"Enforcing a flawed immigration system has wasted tax dollars, frustrated the public, and created an underground labor force living in a legal twilight zone. The answer is comprehensive reform offering earned legalization to the millions of undocumented workers already here, temporary visas to new workers to meet our future labor needs, and sensible enforcement aimed at the remaining small minority that refuses to work within the new system."

signed

4/29/2010 1:02:56 PM

I love how people say MILLIONS! like it's a huge number.

Last study said 11 million out of 310 million people. A STAGGERING 3.5% of people are here illegally.

IT"S THE END OF THE FUCKING WORLD ALL OF OUR JOBS ARE GOING AWAY TO 3.5% OF THE PEOPLE HEREEEEEEEEEEEE

4/29/2010 1:28:02 PM

Quote :

"If the objection is that cops are going to abuse their power, they already do that with every law on the book."

So the fuck what? This law provides another big opportunity for abuse of power in some pretty disgusting ways. Just because we are bad does not mean we might as well get worse. It is entirely legitimate to oppose the AZ law on these grounds.

Quote :

"The disturbing thing is that some of you are completely willing to use racism, which is a serious problem, as a way to pit one group of people against another."

We're willing to because it honestly seems like a motivating factor here and with immigration law in general.

What else are you supposed to think when the only immigration people seem upset about involves brown people? When this law can really only apply to brown people, because nobody suspects any white people of being illegal? There are thousands of illegal Canadian immigrants in this country and presumably at least a few in Arizona, and these people will never, ever be affected by the new law and you know it. Meanwhile, there are plenty of legal, naturalized, or native citizen families of Mexican descent who you know are going to get harassed just that much more.

I'll admit that it's not always racism. Sometimes it's xenophobia or a distaste for poor people. But it's almost always rooted in some kind of ignorant bigotry.

Quote :

"Hey you know what happens if you're caught being in Mexico illegally? Two years in jail. Hmmmm...sounds like at the least we should just match their law."

That is a fucking brilliant plan. We caught 600,000 people crossing last year. We don't have enough money to withstand the very presence of these wetbacks, but we have enough money to feed, clothe, house, and care for them for two years. (And last year was a very light year -- in 2000 we caught more than twice that many)

Quote :

"I think you should give more credibitlity on those who havent broken the law."

Every cop I know has broken some law or another, even if it is minor. Since I have trouble imagining a crime more minor than "risking your life to come work your ass off to build a better life in United States," I'd say that puts them at about parity.

And no, I don't think everyone who wants to get in the country fits that profile, but most do. I've always said that immigration should involve screening for criminal/terrorist pasts, and that once we open the doors to everybody but criminals and terrorists then I will merrily help you shoot anybody trying to cross at an unauthorized point.

4/29/2010 2:04:55 PM

Quote :

"I'll admit that it's not always racism. Sometimes it's xenophobia or a distaste for poor people. But it's almost always rooted in some kind of ignorant bigotry."

You don't know it's always rooted in some kind of ignorant bigotry. You assume that, and state it as fact, but you have no idea what you're talking about. You're essentially saying, "Oh, you disagree with me? There's a small chance that you're not racist, but you probably are."

4/29/2010 2:10:12 PM

Quote :

" A STAGGERING 3.5% of people are here illegally. IT"S THE END OF THE FUCKING WORLD ALL OF OUR JOBS ARE GOING AWAY TO 3.5% OF THE PEOPLE HEREEEEEEEEEEEE"

1. 3.5% is actually pretty staggering, at least to me.
2. It doesn't take a lot of people willing to do any job for peanuts to drive down the cost of labor.

I'm pretty pro-immigration...I'm just against you spouting off retarded bullshit, which accounts for about 99.9% of what you post in here.

4/29/2010 3:19:37 PM

I'm arguing against the hyperbolic rhetoric that comes out of every anti-immigration idiot. Acting like the country is being taken over by those dirty Mexicans. Like it's some sort of invasion of the body snatchers where "there's more of them than us," and that's the real fear, isn't it? That's the fear that White people have. We have a Black president. We have Mexicans everywhere. Suddenly Whitey is looking like he won't be in the majority. Quick, better tag n' bag those beaners before it gets out of control!

4/29/2010 3:39:13 PM

Yes, but ALL YOU FUCKING DO is spout off hyperbolic bullshit yourself. That accomplishes nothing, at BEST.

4/29/2010 3:40:40 PM

I'm guessing he just doesn't have the capacity to have an intelligent debate, so he just resorts to acting like a three year old.

4/29/2010 3:46:48 PM

Quote :

"I just don't understand how the immediate consensus from the left has been "this law is racist." Do you all really come to that conclusion on your own, upon reading the entire law? Does the law say "arrest anyone that looks Hispanic"?"

Well, the people on the news said the law allows police to stop anyone who they suspect may be an illegal immigrant. Then I read the law, and that's what the law said. How does someone reach the level of reasonable suspicion for being an illegal alien? Are they cops going to learn spanish and start whistling by large groups of people until the cop hears someone say "hello, i am here illegally (in spanish, lol)" then SWARM on em? Yeah, right, not when this new law makes it perfectly legal for them to just walk up to Mexicans and ask them for their papers.

4/29/2010 3:48:06 PM

Let me give you an anecdote.

You are a Latino, a legal citizen, who lives in Arizona. One evening, you make supper. You call your son for dinner. He doesn't reply. You walk outside and look for him. You see him down the street.

"Hey," you say, "time for dinner!"

You walk down the block to meet him. Suddenly, a patrol car rounds the corner. The officer flicks on his lights and orders you to stop. He gets out of the car.

"What are you up to, amigo?" he says, looking you up and down.

"Just walking back to my house, officer," you respond.

"Likely story," he says. "You got any identification?"

"Uh... no. I just walked out of my house to go get my kid."

"Well, how do I know you're not illegal? You look illegal."

"I'm not. I was born here."

"Welp," he says with a smile, "You can't prove it. Turn around and place your hands behind your back. I'll call child services for this kid."

4/29/2010 3:52:36 PM

When that actually happens and isn't followed by the man being able to retire early on his court settlement, I'll take your shit seriously.

4/29/2010 3:59:49 PM

It happens to Black people every day.

Just replace "Prove to me you're not illegal" with "Prove to me you're not the guy we want for that crime down the street."

4/29/2010 4:00:44 PM

WTF do you even know about any of that shit, gronke? You're the last person to comment on any of it and also the most racist person i've met which is why I know your posts here are just for the sake of argument.

[Edited on April 29, 2010 at 4:03 PM. Reason : .]

4/29/2010 4:02:49 PM

I follow a lot of blogs that report on police abuse in this country, mancy malek.

[Edited on April 29, 2010 at 4:04 PM. Reason : ]

4/29/2010 4:04:00 PM

lol...blogs. In other words, you have no real first hand experience and are just arguing for the sake of it.

You've got a hard on for cops. Its not easy doing their job and I support their efforts.

Of course, as with any occupation, there are good and bad apples.

4/29/2010 4:06:45 PM

Sorry, but I don't normally trust someone who has the power to destroy my life[1] or kill me[2] without many repercussions. And having bad apples isn't a problem, it's the fact that all of the good apples swarm to protect the bad apples when they're discovered.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innocence_project

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BART_Police_shooting_of_Oscar_Grant

4/29/2010 4:10:59 PM

LOL...this turned into the women on subs debate fast. Or was it already there?

Quote :

" Sorry, but I don't normally trust someone who has the power to destroy my life[1] or kill me "

you and everyone else around you has that very same power.

[Edited on April 29, 2010 at 4:14 PM. Reason : .]

4/29/2010 4:12:02 PM

I don't trust them either!

4/29/2010 4:15:10 PM

What I meant to post earlier is that my guess is that this Arizona legislation is just a cry for help to the Feds.

4/29/2010 4:23:45 PM

Quote :

"d357r0y3r: How many people have actually read the law, and how many people just starting screaming about it as soon as they were instructed by their political leaders to be outraged? If the objection is that cops are going to abuse their power, they already do that with every law on the book. I just don't understand how the immediate consensus from the left has been "this law is racist." Do you all really come to that conclusion on your own, upon reading the entire law? Does the law say "arrest anyone that looks Hispanic"?"

I started screaming about it on here once I seen the Daily Show bit about it.

Since then, eyedrb has ridiculed me, and volex has pointed me to some ostensibly mitigating phrases in the ID part of the law.

But I still have objections:

1. "Lawful contact" is everything. Proponents of the bill are trying to act like this would only apply to traffic stops where the police already request ID anyway. Not so...it applies to practically every interaction the police have with the public. People are almost always doing something seemingly suspicious or technically illegal throughout their daily lives--lawful contact can be made at virtually any time. Of course, this doesn't even begin to touch the issue of dishonest policemen, which is a whole nother can of despicable worms.

2. "Solely" indicates that the law does indeed intend to racially profile. Police can't "solely" use race as a determining factor in suspicion, but they can use it as long as it is accompanied by some unknown mystery factor that doesn't appear in the bill. I'm guessing the mystery factor could be something like behaving nervously. So, brown + nervous (according to the cop) = ask for ID. Of course, the glaring problem is that something like "nervous" doesn't reliably indicate criminal/suspicious behavior (after all, everybody gets nervous with the police). That puts us back at square one: brown = ask for ID. Brown people get hassled. White people do not. Sure, it happens already...that doesn't mean we should codify it...

3. Just in general...the last thing the police need is even more communication barriers between themselves and the community, legal or otherwise. Bad guys get away when the people won't talk. And cops turn sour and corrupt when they're detached from and detested by the people that they're trying to serve. I know some highway guys are probably fed up with undocumented workers traveling through their state, but I doubt alienating and harassing brown people is gonna help their problem.



Plus, GrumpyGOP has touched on the fact that immigration has always been a racial issue. You can't ask us to all of the sudden ignore our nation's history and assume the most scrupulous interpretation of this law. We can't suspend disbelief like it's a Jerry Bruckheimer movie or some shit.

4/29/2010 6:18:44 PM

ITT everybody has been a cop their entire lives.

4/29/2010 6:29:43 PM

apparently

4/29/2010 6:46:19 PM

alls i knows is...


if i lived in arizona, i wouldn't even bother mowing my lawn or trimming my hedges anymore. not worth the risk.

[Edited on April 29, 2010 at 8:00 PM. Reason : ]

4/29/2010 7:52:56 PM

Quote :

"When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God."

Lev. 19:33-34

By which I mean, I'm sure nobody who calls homosexuality an abomination supports this bill.

4/29/2010 7:52:57 PM

^ on an individual and personal level this can be done, while still supporting a secular governmental policy to get them thar illegals out

4/29/2010 8:10:03 PM

If we deported every illegal alien out of Arizona, people would still bitch about Mexicans just because they're fucking bigots.

4/29/2010 8:38:49 PM

ITT God realizes that some people like to complain.

4/29/2010 8:39:55 PM

ITT Solinari palms off xenophobia/racism as "liking to complain"

4/29/2010 8:56:39 PM

Quote :

" 1. 3.5% is actually pretty staggering, at least to me. 2. It doesn't take a lot of people willing to do any job for peanuts to drive down the cost of labor. "

This is more why I'm not a fan of any sort of immigration.

My state, California, will see a 20 million person growth in my lifetime if the 0.96% population growth rate continues. Since the congestion, cost of housing, and environmental damage in this state is already disgusting to me I don't look forward to the future millions.

Then there is the additional problems associated with adding large numbers of unskilled workers...

4/29/2010 8:59:51 PM

Unskilled? lol

Let me know when you can build an office building, cook multiple types of restaurant quality meals, and perform detailed lawn maintenance.

4/29/2010 9:02:59 PM

Quote :

"Let me know when you can build an office building, cook multiple types of restaurant quality meals, and perform detailed lawn maintenance."

holy shit dude, that is the most stereotypical racist bullshit you've said today...

4/29/2010 9:07:13 PM

Yeah, I'm such a racist! I hate Mexicans. This is why I'm arguing against this legislation. Your deductive powers of reasoning are unmatched.

4/29/2010 9:16:50 PM

Quote :

"This is why I'm arguing against this legislation. Your deductive powers of reasoning are unmatched."

Anyone with a bit of sense can figure out that you argue for the sake of arguing. You pick a side and ramble on with the most retarded shit.

The fact remains that you are a racist. This isn't strictly based off of your posts on TWW.

4/29/2010 9:21:45 PM

you see, as long as God takes politically correct political positions on random legislation, he's allowed to say pretty much any stereotypical and racist thing he wants.

4/29/2010 9:22:39 PM

So thats how its done! lol

4/29/2010 9:23:39 PM

lol ok

Mark, please prove to me you aren't racist.

If you can't, I'm going to assume that you're a racist and tell that to everyone.

And... go!

4/29/2010 9:24:03 PM