I don't hate Lowe or anything

but 15 years as an assistant in a program trumps zero experience in college... this is not the same situation

4/10/2009 12:21:48 PM

Quote :

"right, since 16-14 and 10th in the conference is much worse than 13-17 and 8th in the conference. Also I forgot that loyalty should be the basis of all coaching change decisions I like how you shit all over Sidney for a couple bad years and because he had no experience as a head coach in college before he came here but it's perfectly fine to promote an assistant from our struggling women's basketball team who also has no head coaching experience. How can you make the argument that Sidney should be fired because of his results regardless of his earlier contributions to the university (namely a national championship) while Glance should be hired regardless of results because of her earlier contributions to the university."

I said to give Glance at least a 2-3 year contract to see how she does. If she does poorly then I have no problems with getting rid of her. How many years have we given Lowe and how has he done, hence my position on Lowe.

4/10/2009 12:35:37 PM

I like how simonsays takes each little point in a body of fact for the argument of hiring glance and argues it as if each separate one is the only thing behind a decision.

Quote :

"yeah, over like fifty years. nevermind that she started doing this when no one gave a fuck, at all, about women's basketball. "

PEOPLE STILL DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT WOMENS BBALL. It's all the more reason to look at non stat based reasoning for honoring someone with the track record of Yows wishes.

Quote :

"33 years at the university does not automatically mean she had good results."

Holy shit sherlock, can I get some of the IQ points you have stored up because surely you can't be using all of them with brilliant logic like this that mere mortals can't begin to understand. I mean, why would you look at how long she has been here for her good results when you can just look at her career record. You're on a whole different plane from us, aren't you?

Quote :

"a gold medal has NOTHING to do w/ nc state basketball."

It fucking certainly does as it pertains to the former head coach. That's like saying Sidney's years as a pro coach has nothing to do with NCSU. Are you this stupid?

Quote :

"i mean seriously, a gold fucking medal? that was in 1988. who else in the world came anywhere close to fielding any sort of women's basketball team?"

You could ask the former Soviet Union who won the gold in 1976 for starters. She also has a gold as an assistant in '84, and other golds as head coach in 3 other world cups going back to 1979. Being head coach of the face of womens bball is a big deal, much bigger than you are making it. It isn't like they just picked someone at random. Admittedly, the number of solid and available womens coaches was no doubt much smaller then, but it definitely had more than a handful of worthy names to choose from.

Quote :

"remember how badly the dream team used to roll people? it wasn't b/c of coaching, it was b/c no one else in the world played basketball. now i wasn't watching in '88, partly b/c i was a year old and mostly b/c i can't stand watching women's basketball, but i can only imagine how lopsided those games were."

Yeah, and? You'd have a great point if the coaches of those teams were some stooges put there to make sure the players got on and off the bus properly and did no real coaching to speak of.

Quote :

"where's that guy who's been to every football game, home and away, for the last 40 years or whatever it is? let's let him pick the coach if those are the qualifications."

You're right, I didn't post anything else, just how much of an ardent Wolfpacker Yow was. She wasn't the coach or anything else like that, just a fan, thats all.

Quote :

"how long do you stick w/ glance b/c it's the way kay yow wanted it? just forever, she's the women's bb coach no matter what?"

I pointed it out in the post before the last one, do us all a favor and read.

Quote :

"i really don't care if she gets the job or not, but everyone complains about how bad our sports are overall. people talk about how badly we do in the directors' cup and point that right at lee fowler, and then get mad at him when he doesn't pick a coach who, in all honesty, is more than likely not going to do well. that's absolutely fucking stupid."

Wow, you really are retarded. Who do you trust more to pick a successor, Kay Yow or Lee Fowler? Would Yow have kept Glance for all those years if she didn't trust her? Lee Fowler botched the mens search and got bailed out on the fball search but you trust him to evaluate and actually care to pick a womens coach? This is the most asinine thing I've ever heard. And we don't really know if she'll do well or not, I don't really get where you think it will be more than likely. What other examples are you using as evidence, because I can think of a certain WFU coach that would love to have a chat with you.

Quote :

"when has promoting a loyal assistant to a legendary coach worked out? almost never."

I'd be tempted to argue that the dynamics of a mens revenue program and a womens non revenue program are quite different. Legendary coaches are automatically able to recruit better just because of who they are, so their followers might be extremely capable coaches, but they don't have the name to land the big recruits so they have the deck stacked against them from the beginning. Nonetheless, Gaudio is proving to be quite the exception to this rule.

Quote :

"Yow was a good coach and did a great deal for this university but she was not one of the ELITE coaches in women's basketball."

No, but she was still pretty close. I mean, just what are we looking for with a coach here? I'm not one of the ones crying directors cup, that argument is a smaller one in the context of the overall athletic program. You could point to it and say "yeah, the revenue sports are sucking but at least there are some bright spots here" when discussing Lee Fowler. But you don't use that as a basis to go after some elite coach for womens basketball.

Quote :

"Look at how Gaudio has worked out for WFU so far, squandered 3 potential first round picks with a loss in the first round of the tournament."

I don't follow WFU basketball very closely, but I talked to my alum buddy who said he didn't mind losing those games after getting ranked so high so early because most everyone in WFU circles thought that type of result was coming next year. Sadly, that flash of brilliance might be enough to lose some of his top talent. And anyway, if you're trying to point a out #1 ranking, making it to the tournament, and having 3 young players make it to the big show as some sort of knock against Gaudio, you're not going to get much of an audience.

Quote :

"that's not really in the spirit of complying w/ kay yow's wishes."

It most certainly is. I think Yow would be completely understanding of it "not working out" if Glance proves to be an abject failure. I suspect, however, that she has just a bit more of a clue about it than Foulup does.

4/10/2009 5:49:49 PM

Quote :

"That's like saying Sidney's years as a pro coach has nothing to do with NCSU. Are you this stupid?"

LOL. sidney lowe's (terrible) nba coaching results have nothing, at all, to do w/ his results or legacy as head coach of nc state basketball.

[Edited on April 10, 2009 at 7:35 PM. Reason : i'm not going to have a QUOTE BATTLE w/ you, but that gem had to get pointed out.]

4/10/2009 7:33:29 PM

Quotes-R-Us

4/10/2009 8:26:11 PM

^^ You're delusional as fuck if you think Hickson would have came here without Sidney telling him "I know the pro game, I have pro contacts, I know what it will take to get you ready for the league".

You won't have a quote battle because your position, like Lee Fowler, fails.

4/10/2009 8:34:00 PM

it matters for recruiting. at the end of lowe's tenure at nc state, whenever that may be, the fact that he dabbled as a head coach in the nba will have no relevance on what he did at state.

idiot.

[Edited on April 10, 2009 at 9:27 PM. Reason : and i'm not going to get into a quote war b/c you didn't actually respond to anything i said.]

4/10/2009 9:16:14 PM

Quote :

"it matters for recruiting."

If only that wasn't part of a college coaches duties, you'd again, make a killer point. If only a coach with several gold medals in her background didn't do anything to bolster their legacy, you'd have a point.

I didn't respond to anything you said? Are you trolling or is stupidity something you practice in your free time?

4/10/2009 9:32:31 PM

Quote :

"if you're trying to point a out #1 ranking, making it to the tournament, and having 3 young players make it to the big show as some sort of knock against Gaudio, you're not going to get much of an audience. "

a #1 ranking means NOTHING unless it's at the end of the season, you don't get a medal for being ranked #1 at some point during the season. You're still ignoring that they got knocked out of the tournament IN THE FIRST ROUND, against Cleveland State. With the kind of talent they had (3 potential first round picks) it's an extremely disappointing end to their season no matter how you spin it. Do I even have to bring up the fact that they lost to us?

4/10/2009 10:22:13 PM

They went 17-13 his first year and 24-7 this past year, spending time at #1 and finishing the season ranked #20. Now would be a good time to stop trying to use Gaudio as an example of a failed successor.

4/11/2009 12:22:27 AM

Quote :

"spending time at #1"

that means nothing whatsoever

Quote :

"Now would be a good time to stop trying to use Gaudio as an example of a failed successor."

I wouldn't necessarily say he's a failure just yet, but tell me how making the tournament in 1 of your two seasons as a head coach and subsequently losing in the first round of the tournament makes you a great coach. Do you really not understand that what a team does in the NCAA tournament is what actually matters? For all the talent they had on their roster there's no way they should have gotten blown out by CLEVELAND STATE in the first round.

4/11/2009 3:11:03 AM

Quote :

""spending time at #1" that means nothing whatsoever"

Except for the extra press, tv coverage, etc that comes with being #1 in the country. You think some young high school kid doesn't see that? Some #1 team might play Directional State Tech but they still get highlights on ESPN.

4/11/2009 5:10:25 AM

Quote :

"Except for the extra press, tv coverage, etc that comes with being #1 in the country."

That really helped them to not get embarrassed by Cleveland State right? I guess increased exposure isn't hurting their cause, but their incoming class doesn't look great by any stretch, especially with Johnson, Teague and Aminu leaving.

4/11/2009 6:02:51 AM

Quote :

"but tell me how making the tournament in 1 of your two seasons as a head coach and subsequently losing in the first round of the tournament makes you a great coach."

Why do you want me to tell you that? No one has even brought that up. Did you forget we were arguing about the likelihood of a successor being a failure? It certainly seems like you are grasping at whatever semblance of an argument you can imagine and failing epically doing it.

4/11/2009 9:26:33 AM

Dino Gaudio got handed a top recruiting class with a whole roster coming back.

Nothing he has done so far tells me he is a good coach. Bad example.

Fowler has to go whether you agree with this decision or not.

4/11/2009 11:01:42 AM

Quote :

"Fowler has to go whether you agree with this decision or not."

4/11/2009 11:32:57 AM

Quote :

"Did you forget we were arguing about the likelihood of a successor being a failure?"

It's probably too early to tell either way with Gaudio since two years really isn't enough time to judge, but getting blown out by Cleveland State in the first round of the tournament, as well as losing their first game in the ACC tournament to Maryland with 3 first round picks on his roster doesn't really speak to Gaudio being a success does it? If you are judging Gaudio based only what Wake did during the regular season one year, fine call him a success but that's an idiotic benchmark.

[Edited on April 11, 2009 at 12:10 PM. Reason : .]

4/11/2009 12:08:39 PM

OH BOYEEE!

4/11/2009 12:50:49 PM

Quote :

"especially with Johnson, Teague and Aminu leaving"

Johnson is the only one who's gone for sure. Teague isn't hiring an agent and Aminu isn't even submitting his name.

4/11/2009 1:15:32 PM

^you got a link about Aminu? You might be right, I read this story http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2009/news/story?id=4053791 the other day and it says Aminu hasn't decided yet, so I just assumed since he was projected as a lottery pick he would leave.

[Edited on April 11, 2009 at 2:09 PM. Reason : .]

4/11/2009 2:06:44 PM

Quote :

"Dino Gaudio got handed a top recruiting class with a whole roster coming back. Nothing he has done so far tells me he is a good coach. Bad example."

A top recruiting class? They ranked 30th in 2007 in Gaudios first year when they went 17-13 then Gaudio landed a #3 recruiting class last year and we saw what they did. An early exit and an embarrassing loss for a second year coach with a freshman and two sophomores as his stars is frustrating but still an extremely good result. We probably won't get to see what could happen if they all stay around, but a matured better defensive unit is a top 10 team and sweet 16 bound next year no problem. The fact that you are even trying to debate this shows just how bankrupt your argument is. If you want to talk failures of a successor, move the discussion to Bill Guthridge because you simply aren't going to get any traction discussing WFU and Gaudio.

4/11/2009 4:27:01 PM

Quote :

"you got a link about Aminu?"

Nothing "official" yet, but

Quote :

"Aminu has said repeatedly that he does not intend to make himself available for the draft."

http://www2.journalnow.com/content/2009/apr/09/wfus-teague-to-submit-his-name-for-nba-draft/sports/

4/11/2009 4:34:10 PM

Quote :

"A top recruiting class? They ranked 30th in 2007 in Gaudios first year when they went 17-13 then Gaudio landed a #3 recruiting class last year and we saw what they did."

that class was fully assembled before prosser died.

4/11/2009 4:39:10 PM

^mostly correct

if wake keeps gaudio around much longer their program will be way down. i did not think he did anything well this year and just is not ready to be a coach at this level yet

4/11/2009 4:47:02 PM

STAY ON TOPIC GUYS

LEE FOWLER SUCKS

4/11/2009 4:47:37 PM

haha sorry.

here is my take on fowler: of the top 3 sports: football, basketball, and baseball the only guy that we have as a head coach that i am not sold on for keeping a consistent, winning program is lowe. i know many feel differently which is fine; this is just my opinion.

o'brien was a very good hire and avant is a good baseball coach. the problem is that we do not have one program that is considered elite nationally or even semi-elite. I really think the football team in another few years will consistently be top 20 and have chances at acc titles and bcs bowls every few years, which is really all we can ask for. Other than that however, we don't have one other program that is really all that good and most of them aren't even what i consider average.

the job of the AD encompasses all athletic programs, and when judged by that standard fowler is definitely failing.

4/11/2009 4:51:51 PM

Fowler didn't hire Avent and O'Brien contacted us.

4/11/2009 5:06:18 PM

Quote :

"If you want to talk failures of a successor, move the discussion to Bill Guthridge because you simply aren't going to get any traction discussing WFU and Gaudio."

Kind of like how you have no traction to talk about Gaudio if you think he landed those guys?

4/11/2009 9:45:25 PM

Quote :

"STAY ON TOPIC GUYS LEE FOWLER SUCKS"

4/11/2009 10:06:18 PM

Regardless of who contacted who with the Coach O'Brien hire, it was still Fowler who weighed his options and chose him over the other choices, so you have to give him credit there. Coach O'Brien pretty much had to contact Fowler anyway, as it would have been against some unwritten rules had Fowler gone out and tried to bring in a coach that is not only in our conference, but the same division as well.

4/11/2009 11:08:58 PM

^Are you fucking one of the Fowler girls?

TOB pretty much did all the work and got the job himself.

Fowler gets little to no credit for that.

4/13/2009 12:27:13 AM

^^ and if you are fucking one of the Fowler girls, gg.

4/13/2009 12:50:47 AM

gg indeed

4/13/2009 8:46:16 AM

In a coaching search, you file an opening, some people apply, and you actively pursue some who didn't apply on their own.

There's no reason to take credit away from Fowler because O'Brien applied for the job. Fowler still conducted the interviews and negotiations and still hired the guy. It's not like he can actively pursue every damn coach out there. Sometimes you track down the right guy, sometimes the right guy tracks you down. Fowler still made a good damn hire.

4/13/2009 9:09:54 AM

O'Brien didn't contact us and do most of the work himself.


O'Brien got in touch another coach and through that person, with Chuck Neinas and told him he was interested. Fowler called O'Brien first as far as direct contact between the two of them, on a Sunday. Three days later on Wednesday it was all over with. I don't think it was the hardest thing Fowler has ever had to do, but he should certainly receive some amount of credit for #1 hiring Neinas, and #2 not fucking it all up, at least.

4/13/2009 9:10:21 AM

So, can someone please just PM what the hell is going on with Fowler? Law school has consumed me and I have not had the time to keep up with this. I heard this past weekend that he was out.

4/13/2009 10:54:21 AM

Nothing. April Fools.

4/13/2009 11:10:42 AM

Quote :

"that class was fully assembled before prosser died."

Which class are you referring to, because there are two mentioned in what you quoted.

I assume you mean the first one, but you've shown to be relatively clueless about all this so maybe you were referring to the '08 class as well.

Quote :

"Kind of like how you have no traction to talk about Gaudio if you think he landed those guys?"

Which class you ape? I'll be the first to admit sheer amazement if you think the ghost of Skip Prosser came back and told the class of '08 that they should stick with him at WFU.

4/13/2009 12:08:18 PM

To answer your question, the 08 class was committed (don't know if they were signed) when Prosser died. My dad is a WFU fan and I remember talking with him about the amazing class they had coming in and who they would get to replace Prosser on the day he died.

4/13/2009 12:56:20 PM

^^They hired Gaudio right away mainly to keep the program together. Prosser landed those recruits....not Gaudio.

4/13/2009 1:01:53 PM

Thats all well and good, but we see what good recruits do when a coach jumps ship. So to not give Gaudio any sort of credit in being able to keep recruits a year after his predecessor passed is simply asinine. They obviously felt confident in his abilities, liked him, or any other various reasons they decided to keep their commitment when they could have easily gone somewhere else. The bottom line is this points to Gaudio success, not Gaudio failure. You could compare this scenario to say Dan Werner, Chris Wright, and Larry Davis if you think it might bolster your argument.

Make a compelling argument for once.

Anyway, I've won the Gaudio debate so lets just move this back on topic.

4/13/2009 1:12:25 PM

You haven't won shit dude. Most people believe Gaudio hasn't done anything to prove he is a ACC caliber coach. I'm known as a Lowe hater, whatever, and I am not sure Sidney isn't a better coach than Dino.

Quote :

"You could compare this scenario to say Dan Werner, Chris Wright, and Larry Davis if you think it might bolster your argument."

Our coaching search took over a month and was handled by a goon A.D. which this thread is about. That's why those three decided to leave.

Quote :

"They obviously felt confident in his abilities, liked him, or any other various reasons they decided to keep their commitment when they could have easily gone somewhere else."

You mean to tell me that they like an assistant coach that most likely helped or possibly was the main recruiter in getting them to the school and most likely will coach in many of the same aspects as the head coach he served under? Shocking.

4/13/2009 1:19:09 PM

Quote :

"Our coaching search took over a month and was handled by a goon A.D. which this thread is about. That's why those three decided to leave."

Chris Wright, the one we needed most was making visits in September AFTER he re-opened his recruitment. He decided to go somewhere else. Larry Davis decided to go elsewhere AFTER Lowe was hired. Werner flew to meet with Lowe in June and decided after that meeting not to come.

Quote :

"You mean to tell me that they like an assistant coach that most likely helped or possibly was the main recruiter in getting them to the school and most likely will coach in many of the same aspects as the head coach he served under? Shocking."

You just keep making my points for me.

4/13/2009 1:43:20 PM

Say we hired Larry Harris to be our head coach. He was an assistant under Herb and was the main recruiter for all of those guys listed. Do you think any of them would have left had he been hired right away as the head coach?

4/13/2009 2:08:47 PM

If the point you're trying to make is by year #2 we would have touched #1 and made it back to the tourney pointing to Harris being a success...then yes, I wholeheartedly agree.

Any other point you are trying to make is missing the bigger argument.

4/13/2009 2:10:33 PM

Quote :

"but we see what good recruits do when a coach jumps ship"

so a coach dying is the same as a coach leaving for another school?

Quote :

"So to not give Gaudio any sort of credit in being able to keep recruits a year after his predecessor passed is simply asinine."

he deserves some credit for keeping them, but again you're acting like a coach dying is the same as a coach leaving for another school...the recruits still had a relationship with the rest of the staff and they would have looked like huge douchebags if they had decommitted after Prosser died and Gaudio was promoted.

Quote :

"they decided to keep their commitment when they could have easily gone somewhere else"

I don't know about that, I remember reading something about how all the other ACC schools and maybe some others agreed to not try to recruit any of Prosser's commitments to honor him.

Quote :

"The bottom line is this points to Gaudio success, not Gaudio failure. "

aha, so keeping a recruiting class together mean's he's a success but getting blown out by Cleveland State in the first round means nothing right?

Quote :

"I've won the Gaudio debate "

only in your mind

[Edited on April 13, 2009 at 2:32 PM. Reason : .]

4/13/2009 2:21:53 PM

When is the Lee Fowler charity golf thing over? It is today or tomorrow right? If there was any substance to prior rumors that Fowler is out then we should know after that tourny.

4/13/2009 5:36:51 PM

Quote :

"so a coach dying is the same as a coach leaving for another school?"

If the end results is recruits LOI/committing to a school with the reality being they want to play for a certain coach switch schools when that situation changes, then most certainly, they are functionally the same.

Quote :

"he deserves some credit for keeping them, but again you're acting like a coach dying is the same as a coach leaving for another school..."

I'm not 'acting' anything. Recruits going back on their commitments or switching schools is a fact of life these days.

Quote :

"..the recruits still had a relationship with the rest of the staff and they would have looked like huge douchebags if they had decommitted after Prosser died and Gaudio was promoted"

No they wouldn't have, don't be ridiculous.

Quote :

"I don't know about that, I remember reading something about how all the other ACC schools and maybe some others agreed to not try to recruit any of Prosser's commitments to honor him."

I know this isn't the soap box, but you could probably keep from clowning yourself if you'd take a moment to search before you fail again, because it took me about 30 seconds to find a link that directly contradicts that statement you just made
http://www.carolinasucks.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=16499

Quote :

"aha, so keeping a recruiting class together mean's he's a success but getting blown out by Cleveland State in the first round means nothing right?"

Look you idiot, I already pointed this out once, looking at any individual item is not how you arrive at a success/fail determination. Look at the entire body of work. I even addressed that a first round exit is certainly frustrating, but damn, how much more do you really expect from a second year coach with 2 sophomores and a freshman as his stars?

Quote :

"only in your mind"

No, I believe the thorough trouncing of every argument you guys have made against Gaudio exists outside of my mind as well.

4/13/2009 6:19:07 PM

don't bother guys. last time i tried to argue w/ him he just pasted everything i said and wrote 'wow you're a fucking genius', or something similar, after it.

4/13/2009 6:41:31 PM

yeah too many quotes.. so like I was saying, does anyone know when Fowler's golf tourny ends? I thought it was the beginning of this week sometime?

4/13/2009 6:52:37 PM