Quote :

" yes, but if some banks hadn't been forced to give risky loans out in the first place, then said risky loans would not have found their way into the loan packages that major banks bought, thus bringing those banks down"

and if we hadn't defeated hitler, those people wouldn't have been born, and they never would have tricked the government in to tricking the banks to give them loans they couldn't afford.

[Edited on February 7, 2009 at 11:13 PM. Reason : ]

2/7/2009 11:13:06 PM

Obama is a fucking idiot. Dropping the charges of the USS Cole bomber

http://news.aol.com/political-machine/2009/02/06/obama-drops-charges-against-uss-cole-bomber/

2/11/2009 6:48:20 PM

Quote :

"The charges were withdrawn without prejudice, meaning they later can be reinstated in a military commission or pursued in a civilian court. Al-Nashiri will remain in custody. The original plan was for the announcement not to be made until after President Obama meets with the families of victims of terrorist attacks on 9/11 and on the U.S.S. Cole Friday afternoon, where he will assure them that this step was not done to be lenient towards al-Nashiri. The move is being done to stop the continued prosecution of al-Nashiri in a court system that his administration may ultimately find illegitimate, not for any other reason, sources told ABC News."

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/02/president-oba-2.html

[Edited on February 11, 2009 at 6:57 PM. Reason : +]

2/11/2009 6:55:43 PM

the family of the Cole victims are not too happy

2/11/2009 7:02:06 PM

i'd be pissed too that the detainee system had been so jacked up that it needed to be frozen and re-sorted out, thereby delaying things even more

i'd also be pissed that the media is obviously baiting rubes with incendiary headlines in hopes that you click on a link

but it's cool... i'll just keep it real like user "tracy" when she says at 11:24AMFeb 6th 2009

Quote :

"THIS just PROVES that B.O. has NO clue what the heck he's doing as president. He is going to ruin this country. He wants to censor conservative radio/t.v., limit gun ownership, spend money on more welfare benefits, art, abortion, etc. THIS is the CHANGE you people voted for? WOW!!! The sad thing is, the rest of us who did NOT vote for this moron, are going to suffer right along with you. He does not know the meaning of the word 'transparency'. HE'S A LIAR!!! If he turns these dogs loose, I hope they ALL move to Washington,D.C. so they(the government) will have to deal with them. Put them all in Alcatraz.(spelling)"

2/11/2009 7:50:40 PM

I don't see why people have a problem with convicting our enemies the right way, instead of shady, questionable ways that make us look bad.

2/11/2009 8:02:37 PM

Quote :

"man if we could get an engine to run on republican tears we wouldn't have to buy gas for the next 8 years"

2/11/2009 8:15:59 PM

Im not a republican and Im not crying

2/11/2009 9:19:49 PM

Quote :

"I don't see why people have a problem with convicting our enemies the right way, instead of shady, questionable ways that make us look bad."

enemies and criminals are different things.

2/11/2009 9:21:16 PM

^^if only more people were like you

2/11/2009 9:21:54 PM

I am disheartened how far our country has fallen

2/11/2009 9:32:36 PM

Quote :

"Put them all in Alcatraz.(spelling)"

I hear that sister

2/11/2009 9:36:58 PM

^^ i sure as hell don't pine for the days of jim crow, prohibition or when they said cigarettes were as good as vitamins

this country is still an experiment in democracy that has yet to succeed or fail

[Edited on February 11, 2009 at 9:46 PM. Reason : +]

2/11/2009 9:38:14 PM

Quote :

"enemies and criminals are different things. "

That doesn't change anything as far as this case is concerned.

2/11/2009 10:17:51 PM

so REPUBLICAN18, what are you these days, if you're not a repub?

2/11/2009 11:28:15 PM

Quote :

"this country is still an experiment in democracy that has yet to succeed or fail "

True, but current policies coming from Washington are destined to fail. The American voter sold a large part of our freedom and security in many aspects when they voted for candidates who were touting losing policies. Change can be good, but doing the wrong things just to be doing something is foolish. A lot of things were done wrong during the Bush years, but more irresponsible policies won't make the country better. Politicians can't efficiently run the government, and they are definitely not the ones to turn a weak economy around. Congress shares a lot of the blame for the economic mess, and they are going to do nothing but make it worse. They'll tell people they are helping and get votes, but all they are doing is consolidating power. "Yes we can" is quickly turning into "What have we elected"

2/12/2009 12:01:39 AM

Quote :

"but current policies coming from Washington are destined to fail."

my glasses aren't too good

is that george will over there

i know it sounds crazy

but i think we have renowned conservative political scientist george will on this website

someone tell nael good job on the recruitment drive

2/12/2009 1:55:26 AM

Quote :

"That doesn't change anything as far as this case is concerned."

maybe, maybe not. it was an attack on a military target. when that happens, is there proper evidence collected? is there a chain of evidence established? what jurisdiction does it fall under? there are a lot of questions to be sorted out that are impossible, in our civilian justice system, to apply after the fact. technicalities get cases thrown out. I doubt the USS Cole was treated like a proper crime scene.

however, I was responding to your general statement that I assumed you meant all of those captured in the fighting, etc...which we have debated before

2/12/2009 10:41:25 AM

Quote :

"but current policies coming from Washington are destined to fail"

lol

Let's just hope you are borrowing hooksaw's crystal ball here.

2/12/2009 10:58:52 AM

Quote :

"this country is still an experiment in democracy that has yet to succeed or fail"

yes but the direction we are headed is by no means what was intended by our founders. We have strayed from the limited government and federalism which was intended.

Quote :

"so REPUBLICAN18, what are you these days, if you're not a repub?"

seeing as how the GOP does not reflect what I believe anymore, i see myself as a conservative libertarian.

2/12/2009 6:57:30 PM

why don't you just work to fix the party?

2/12/2009 7:25:11 PM

Quote :

"i see myself as a conservative libertarian."

please define.

2/12/2009 7:27:11 PM

its latin for "ashamed republican" or "tired of losing"

i can't remember how to conjugate the verbs

2/12/2009 7:29:14 PM

Quote :

"yes but the direction we are headed is by no means what was intended by our founders. We have strayed from the limited government and federalism which was intended"

lol the founding fathers were also against foreign entanglements but somehow we've managed to work that into our national identity and celebrate it

2/12/2009 8:05:21 PM

Quote :

"its latin for "ashamed republican" or "tired of losing" i can't remember how to conjugate the verbs"

haha lulz... made me think of the paint vandalism scene in Life of Brian

2/12/2009 9:08:17 PM

Im not proud of said foreign entanglements either. One reason the modern GOP pisses me off. I have no desire to fix the party because I dont see the bible thumpers ever leaving it. the way i see myself as a conservative libertarian is basically one who is fiscally conservative, wants a smaller federalist central government, more state and local power, less government involved in our everyday life, more personal freedom. although i tend to have a conservative stance on many social arguments, i dont want the government to have the authority to dictate social issues. im for personal responsibility and i resent the socialist nanny state which this country has become. I also disagree with many laws and policies on the books

[Edited on February 12, 2009 at 9:11 PM. Reason : .]

2/12/2009 9:09:57 PM

Quote :

"seeing as how the GOP does not reflect what I believe anymore, i see myself as a conservative libertarian."

Word.

2/12/2009 9:34:44 PM

You have to be proud of the foreign entanglements... It's what put us on the map as a world power. We wouldn't have had anything to do in the 20th century if it wasn't for war.

2/12/2009 9:45:00 PM

some were justified. I agree with the US involvement in WWII.

2/12/2009 9:51:38 PM

you know what else the founding fathers liked

using african slaves
education for the rich
keeping women in kitchens
unchecked working environments
expansion at the cost of the natives

good thing we're keeping to their vision!

2/12/2009 11:12:59 PM

Quote :

"you know what else the founding fathers liked"

Liberty. Individual Rights. Limited Government.
These were pretty radical ideas for their time. Yes the Founders weren't as enlightened as we are today. But in the future, we may be looked at in a similar way. Someday- a more enlightened American people may look back on our country's sad daliance with Obama fascism and shake their heads.

2/13/2009 1:26:08 AM

lol

"fascism"

2/13/2009 1:48:24 AM

Quote :

"We have strayed from the limited government and federalism which was intended"

Intended by whom? Not all the founders were frothing-at-the-mouth libertarians. Actually, not many were. The Federalists weren't proponents of end-all, be-all federalism. Far from it. And hell, wasn't it Adams -- the second president -- who passed the Alien and Sedition Acts? Yeah, there's limited government and federalism for you.

There's an unfortunate tendency among more libertarian elements to glorify the founders as champions of their cause, when in reality they were just power-hungry as the rest of us.

Quote :

"lol the founding fathers were also against foreign entanglements"

Uh no.

Although you were probably being sarcastic and I just missed it.

But Washington was the guy opposed to foreign entanglements. Other individuals were as well, but not as staunchly. Jefferson (patron saint of libertarianism for some reason) was enamored of the French and wanted to support them. Hamilton, Washington's right-hand man and my favorite founder, was more a Limey-lover and endorsed several harebrained schemes involving foreign entanglement.

Quote :

"the way i see myself as a conservative libertarian is basically one who is fiscally conservative, wants a smaller federalist central government, more state and local power, less government involved in our everyday life, more personal freedom."

None of these necessarily follows from any of the others. "More state and local power" doesn't mean "less government involved in our everyday life" -- it just means that the government in question is more likely to be state or local than federal. People in, say, California or New Jersey have plenty of government involvement in their lives that we in North Carolina do not. And that isn't the Federal government's fault.

Quote :

"i dont want the government to have the authority to dictate social issues."

Constitutionally speaking, it's easy to argue that the federal government doesn't have that authority. State and local governments are a different question.

Quote :

"Liberty. Individual Rights. Limited Government. "

Yeah, yeah, throw the fancy terms around. Fact is they only liked those things for the privileged few. Liberty and individual rights didn't apply to blacks or women, or plenty of white men without property. And limited government was great...until it got in the way of the founder in question. Tom Jefferson didn't hesitate to expand federal powers when it suited him, and George Washington, founder of the republic, was ready to personally lead the troops to go shoot poor farmers who were angry about a tax on booze.

Everyone likes liberty for themselves. That's not what makes the founders special. Hell, as far back as the Magna fucking Carta privileged white men have been throwing a fit about wanting more liberty for privileged white men. What makes them special is that they set up a form of government that could move towards a more progressive end without necessitating revolution.

Quote :

"Obama fascism "

You're above this sort of bullshit. Fascism means a certain thing, a very specific and terrifying thing, a thing that once brought the entire world into a conflict more horrific than anything we've ever wrought. Some seventy million people died in the Second World War, all because of real-life, non-hyperbolic fascism. Let's not take a giant shit on their memory by comparing the government type largely responsible for all that suffering to that of a liberal American president.

I'll rant more about foreign entanglements later.

[Edited on February 13, 2009 at 2:05 AM. Reason : ]

2/13/2009 2:05:07 AM

Obama promised transparency in government.

The largest Bill in American history wasn't tabled for 48 hours like bills usually are at a minimum. No one has been allowed to look at the Stimulus Bill for longer than 10 hours.

Releasing the Bill at 11 pm last night with a vote a 9 am on nearly a trillion dollars of government spending is about as far from transparency and sunshine that you can get.

I am beginning to have my doubts about Obama.

2/13/2009 8:17:59 AM

vote a party in with the power and majorities that the Dems have and you get a blank check to do basically whatever you want. same thing if it were Repubs in control.

unchecked idiocy.

2/13/2009 9:59:57 AM

Quote :

"unfortunate tendency among more libertarian elements to glorify the founders as champions of their cause"

In their day, they were champions of freedom and individual rights. The norm for most gov'ts back then was A king telling everyone else what they could do, with little emphasis on reigning in the tyranny. The Constituion and Bill of Rights was one of the first times the people told the gov't what it could do instead of the other way around.

Quote :

""More state and local power" doesn't mean "less government"

That's very true. Local gov'ts can be some of the most oppressive.

Quote :

"Yeah, yeah, throw the fancy terms around. ...move towards a more progressive end "

Now who is throwing around fancy terms? You can read the term "progressive" in a number of ways. Whenever I see the word, I think bigger and more intrusive gov't and horrible unintended consequences from good intentions.

Quote :

"Fascism means a certain thing,"

It is becoming pretty clear that Obama is no fan of capitalism. He has written about his support for marxist theory in past books. It is clear with his desire to mandate how much people can be paid, that he has a poor understanding on how our capitalistic system works...and I think he doesn't really care to know.

Fascism creeped up upon a desperate European populace. Wanting to escape the financial depression, they panicked and allowed various statists to take control. These states indeed led to the death of millions...many of which, such as Stalin, murdered his own people.

FDR also used the financial crisis to gain more centralized power for gov't. Obama's boy Rahm Emmanual has stated that no crisis should be allowed to go to waste in furthering your goals.

Obama and his handlers are working towards for more centralized control over the country and more importantly its economy. And that is fascism.

Quote :

"Mussolini: The Fascist State lays claim to rule in the economic field no less than in others; it makes its action felt throughout the length and breadth of the country by means of its corporative, social, and educational institutions, and all the political, economic, and spiritual forces of the nation, organized in their res­pective associations, circulate within the State. The Fascist State organizes the nation, but it leaves the individual adequate elbow room. It has curtailed useless or harmful liberties while preserving those which are essential. In such matters the individual cannot be the judge, but the State only."

Tell me where Obama disagrees with the above statements?

2/13/2009 10:10:17 AM

there we go

from there we can leap right into whites to the gas chambers

2/13/2009 10:12:54 AM

It really bothers me when, at this stage of the game with such little evidence, people start throwing around the term fascist to describe obama, yet, despite the 8 years of evidence we had of fascism with bush they won't even consider it to describe bush. Its disgusting the lack of objectivity promoting such comments.

Quote :

"Fascists aim to create a single-party state in which the government is led by a dictator who seeks unity by requiring individuals to subordinate self-interest to the collective interest of the nation or a race.[5][6][7] Fascist movements promote violent conflict between nations, political factions, and races as part of a social darwinist view that conflict between these groups is natural and a part of evolution.[8][9]"

Bush was far more fascist in his policies than anything we have seen Obama do so far. Bush's, roves, and chenney's goal was to create a republican hegemony. They desired complete control by their party and rendering the left impotent. Bush considered him the decider and frequently went against public opinion to achieve what he consider to be the best course for the nation, whether it be laws, treatment of people, or going to war. These actions do not indicate a democracy. furthermore a mentality of unwavering allegiance was also commanded, and any question of policy or intentions of the administration lead to cries of one being unpatriotic towards the homeland and a possible terrorist sympathizer. Civilian surveillance increased substantially under the bush administration, as did attempts at media control and authorization of disseminating information through the media.

I can admit that some socialist tendencies do exist within Obama but at the same time I can also acknowledge that he is making an earnest attempt at remaining centrist, which is why he is getting flack from his own party. I also have failed to see the same disregard for the rights of americans or other sovereign nations that I have during the Bush administration. Socialism and Fascism are in most cases mutually exclusive. Socialism is a very left-wing system. Fascism is a very right-wing system.

2/13/2009 10:45:47 AM

anyone calling bush a fascist and obama a socialist is a hack.

leanings or tendencies are one thing. practice is quite another.

[Edited on February 13, 2009 at 10:50 AM. Reason : .]

2/13/2009 10:49:16 AM

I'm not saying that bush was a fascist, because that would be a stretch. My point was that people will sling that term around and use it against President Obama, but these same people can't imagine using the term to describe Bush, although he provided much stronger evidence for the case. it indicates their hypocrisy ostensibly.

I will go on the record, however, to say that there are some serious neglects in democracy performed by both parties and the majority of our elected presidents over the last century. This is not a characteristic limited to one person or group.

2/13/2009 11:02:51 AM

Quote :

"The norm for most gov'ts back then was A king telling everyone else what they could do, with little emphasis on reigning in the tyranny."

Maybe it was, but the United States wasn't declaring independence from "most" governments, it was declaring independence from Great Britain, which had a parliament and had advanced the field of personal civil and economic liberties quite a ways before we came around. The founders took it farther, yeah, but it's not as though the world were dark and they arrived with the light.

Quote :

"Now who is throwing around fancy terms? You can read the term "progressive" in a number of ways."

Fair enough. I was using in the context of our conversation; that is, more progressive with regards to equal rights for women, minorities, and the poor.

Quote :

"He has written about his support for marxist theory in past books."

Quote :

"These states indeed led to the death of millions...many of which, such as Stalin, murdered his own people. "

I'm still not sure you know what fascism actually is, because pretty much your entire response seems to center around connecting him with Communism.

Quote :

"Obama and his handlers are working towards for more centralized control over the country and more importantly its economy. And that is fascism."

No, it isn't. It's an element of fascism, but it's also an element of socialism and communism and just plain-old liberal politics. You don't get to divide the world into "libertarians" vs. "fascists."

And most of Obama's horrible commie fascist policies seem to be tied to receiving a giant chunk of free money they were begging for. It's the corporations, supposed guardians of our well-being in a Libertarian state, that are clamoring for more government involvement in their affairs, although they may be picky about certain details.

2/13/2009 12:10:30 PM

Quote :

"He has written about his support for marxist theory in past books."

He has written that he studied Marxist theory. I'm not how much he claimed he supported the theories. (quotes from the books would be fine)

2/13/2009 12:16:21 PM

what a bunch of fascists

2/13/2009 12:18:20 PM

so is this stimulus package the event Biden was referring to in which we'd have to just trust them?

2/13/2009 1:04:47 PM

Quote :

"Obama's Antiterror Progress He embraces Bush policies on secrecy, rendition. President Obama has done a masterful job disguising his Administration's growing antiterror maturity, but this week produced further evidence that he is erring on the side of keeping the country safe rather than appeasing the political left. The Justice Department filed to dismiss a federal appeals case involving rendition, embracing an argument developed by . . . the Bush Administration. In other words, the anti-antiterror lobby is being exposed as more radical than its putative banner carrier. As Mr. Obama is learning, the left's exertions to disarm the country's counterterrorism arsenal are as dangerous now as they were prior to his election..."

No way, Obama continuing Bush tactics that he criticized?! Glad to see he's realized that Bush's terrorist policies also had a lot of good to them. Man I bet a lot of people on the far left are pissed.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123448807524880329.html

2/13/2009 3:03:50 PM

Quote :

"They desired complete control by their party and rendering the left impotent."

And now when it's in power, isn't the Left trying the same thing?

Quote :

"I'm still not sure you know what fascism actually is, because pretty much your entire response seems to center around connecting him with Communism."

You tell me if I'm close....
Fascist states (nazi Germany, Mussolini's Italy, Franco's Spain, Tojo's Japan, Pinochet's Chile) are strong centralized gov'ts permitting no criticism or opposition and controlling all affairs of the nation including industrial and commercial. There are different types of fascism...the nazis were racist fascists while Mussolini was closer to the Bush era being a nationalistic fascist.

Socialist states (USSR, communist China, socialist England, Cuba, North Korea) are your basic ownership of means of production, capital, land, etc are all owned by "the people" better known as the state.

The main difference is how each system views private property. Fascism allows for some private ownership with heavy gov't influence and regulation. Socialism allows for almost no private property.

As far as I'm concerned, though, both systems promote giant, centralized states which trample over individual and property rights.

Quote :

"It's the corporations, supposed guardians of our well-being in a Libertarian state, that are clamoring for more government involvement in their affairs"

The only reason businesses are begging for money is because the politicians trashed the Constitution and started offering money to everyone. If the gov't stopped picking winners and losers...poof!.. no more lobbyists, and no more bail-out-begging.

Quote :

"Marxist theory...I'm not how much he claimed he supported the theories."

"It’s because you have an obligation to yourself. Because our individual salvation depends on collective salvation." - Barack Obama

"Well, Charlie, what I’ve said is that I would look at raising the capital gains tax for purposes of fairness." - Barack Obama

"I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody." - Barack Obama

2/13/2009 10:44:10 PM

^^ That's an interesting spin that doesn't really hurt anyone for you to believe.

2/13/2009 11:04:03 PM

Exactly what date do the armies come out to gather the whites for the gas chambers... I just need to know to protect myself... From the united sates military... The most prepared and armored military in the world.... Coming to get me and you... Lord Jesus I just need the words... To stop the American boots..

Bullet the blue sky

2/13/2009 11:17:10 PM

hey marko

the chair is against the wall

john has a long mustache

2/14/2009 2:15:09 AM

Obama and the left basically stole money from generations of Americans that haven't been born yet to gain more control over the American economy and the people. If you listened to what he said during his campaign, he planned all along to reduce the freedom of Americans to get ahead financially. This share the wealth stuff is nothing but taking money from achievers and giving it to those who do not earn it. It is going to take several generations of achievers to pay this debt off. Those who elected him sold a portion of our individual financial freedom for a few vague promises. He kept saying "change" but it would be a good idea if the change actually benefited the country. The people who elected him deserve what they get, but everybody is going to be stuck with a bill we can't pay.

2/14/2009 9:28:50 AM