yeah, or we could give every patient every test and treatment available, cost or ability to pay be damned!! I'm sure that will help us with the healthcare crisis!

oh wait.... that's what we do now, and healthcare costs are spiraling out of control.

2/10/2009 11:53:37 AM

well maybe, just maybe if we didn't have grossly inappropriate malpractice settlements handed out like candy by a bunch of idiotic judges healthcare costs would be somewhat controlled.

2/10/2009 11:56:44 AM

agentlion has never heard about defensive medicine or ran a business to understand the need to keep incomes up while reimbursements continue to get lowered.

Its amazing how this honest transparent president O'Drama accepts govt controlled healthcare taking cover in a jobs stim bill.

2/10/2009 12:02:30 PM

^^ yeah yeah, lawsuits are the whole problem, blah blah blah
my only point was that it can be ridiculous how much money is spent for little, questionable, or temporary benefit. I'm mostly talking about end-of-life cases - these are very, very hard decisions for families and doctors to make, but it just doesn't make sense financially, for example, for insurance companies (or state run insurance or whoever if paying the bill) to spend 80% of person's lifetime amount of care in the final month of their life.

2/10/2009 12:16:44 PM

obama's on town hall again

and they just interrupted it with the senate passing their version of the plan 61 to 37

[Edited on February 10, 2009 at 12:46 PM. Reason : pronoun]

2/10/2009 12:45:39 PM

so does that mean that the $15k homebuyer's tax credit is a go?

2/10/2009 12:50:15 PM

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2009/02/smoking-gun-caller-explains-stimulus-as.html

Smoking gun: caller explains Stimulus as Obama plan to fund permanent Democratic patronage system

Quote :

" "Chicago Bob", calling into a radio talk show, explains the need to rush on the Stimulus package before anyone gets a good chance to review its sordid details. The transcript: "I really feel that what I'm gonna give you here is a smoking gun. I'm a conservative Democrat and I'm from Chicago... and I, I feel that I was betrayed. I was in a meeting after Obama got elected and I was told by the Democratic officials in that meeting that we were gonna give billions of dollars that was gonna come down the pike, our way, and what we were to do with it was we were supposed to do with it... We are gonna build an army of Democratic patronage jobs.... gonna completely freeze up the Republicans forever and ever... It's a job-capturing system, the same one they have in Chicago... everyone's asking 'why isn't that money being released until 2011 and 2012?' Because it needs to be released at a time that's close to the election, so that they don't go blow the money and spend it. So they're gonna hold some back and that's where... the real bucks will be spent, right up close to the election. ...It's not a stimulus package, it's not pork! It's a job patronage system... there's gonna be more [people] working for the Democrats in a patronage system than the United States Army... And the jobs are gonna be camouflaged in a million different ways, whether you're workin' for the city, or workin' for the state, but when the election comes around, you're gonna be obligated to go out and get that vote... ...like ACORN, except the jobs will be larger scale. I just wanted to say that, because I was really depressed when they told me, because I really thought they'd be different. If I've done nothing else in my life, I've informed what that bill really is... it's a job patronage system.""

2/10/2009 12:56:50 PM

Quote :

"healthcare costs would be somewhat controlled. "

They would be a lot more controlled if hospitals didn't have to compensate for the people who come to the ER to get cold medicine or a warm bed FOR FREE (courtesy of the EMTALA) and the pencil-pushers behind JCAHO.

Yet Obama doesn't mention either of these things as problems. Many REAL doctors do though.

He needs to identify the real root cause of the problem he's trying to fix.

2/10/2009 12:57:54 PM

Quote :

"so does that mean that the $15k homebuyer's tax credit is a go? "

how is this going to worK? Is it retro active. because I bought a condo at the end of august.

2/10/2009 12:59:05 PM

god damnit. Everywhere i've looked says its for any homes purchased after its signed into law. What a bunch of bullshit.

2/10/2009 2:35:33 PM

Quote :

"^^ yeah yeah, lawsuits are the whole problem, blah blah blah my only point was that it can be ridiculous how much money is spent for little, questionable, or temporary benefit. I'm mostly talking about end-of-life cases - these are very, very hard decisions for families and doctors to make, but it just doesn't make sense financially, for example, for insurance companies (or state run insurance or whoever if paying the bill) to spend 80% of person's lifetime amount of care in the final month of their life."

Come on buddy, I said somewhat and I know its not solely to blame. And in regards to what you're talking about yeah I get it it applies...not really at all.

2/10/2009 2:40:54 PM

[Edited on February 10, 2009 at 2:58 PM. Reason : ah nevermind, i'm posting old news ]

2/10/2009 2:57:20 PM

whats wrong shaggy? You dont like govt handing out money to some? Think of all the people that will help. LOL

2/10/2009 3:04:54 PM

I know, let's be petulant about things that will help out millions and millions in trouble. Ain't it great?

2/10/2009 3:30:55 PM

The new bailout plan was announced at 11 am:

"Make of it what you will."

http://www.cafehayek.com/hayek/2009/02/good-politics-vs-good-economics.html

[Edited on February 10, 2009 at 3:57 PM. Reason : .,.]

2/10/2009 3:56:52 PM

yes kainen a 15k tax credit for buying a house will help million of people in trouble... hahah, do you think before you post?

"I just lost my job, im on unemployment, ive got no savings... but god damn if i could buy this house i want all is right in the world".. LOL

If you need 15K credit in order for you to buy a house.. you dont need to be buying one.

2/10/2009 4:00:34 PM

This shit drives me up the wall. My credit is good. I got my mortgage in the middle of this shitstorm and I have no problem paying it.

Shitty companies and retarded people get bailouts, but for some fucking reason I dont qualify for this stimulus shit? Fuck all these companies that got into bad loans. Fuck all these people who cant afford to pay their mortgages and fuck the US government.

2/10/2009 4:20:05 PM

sounds like you are comin around shaggy.

This is what happens when the govt divides our country and rewards irresponsible behavior at the expense of those acting responsibly.

2/10/2009 4:21:54 PM

Quote :

"yes kainen a 15k tax credit for buying a house will help million of people in trouble... hahah, do you think before you post? "I just lost my job, im on unemployment, ive got no savings... but god damn if i could buy this house i want all is right in the world".. LOL If you need 15K credit in order for you to buy a house.. you dont need to be buying one."

You're thinking in monochrome man. It is an incentive for first time home buyers to help resuscitate the dying housing market which in turns benefits millions who are in trouble.

By the way, for your information this 15K tax credit was a proposal that got bipartisan support and introduced by Senator Johnny Isakson (R) from Georgia who used to be a real estate broker. Yes, a republican.

2/10/2009 4:28:11 PM

im all for it if we're going to be blowing this wad of cash anyway. I just want a piece of it.

2/10/2009 4:33:14 PM

^^Fuck the housing market. In case you haven't noticed, things are the way they are in part because home prices are over valued, and people are buying homes they have no business owning with money they don't have.

[Edited on February 10, 2009 at 4:34 PM. Reason : sadf]

2/10/2009 4:34:11 PM

Quote :

" NEW YORK (CNN) -- Well, that didn't take long. Three weeks into the new administration and the Democrats are squandering their advantage and threatening to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Credit House Speaker Nancy Pelosi for getting the ball rolling. Under her leadership, House Democrats excluded Republicans from having any voice in crafting the stimulus package. Acting like children who hadn't seen Santa Claus for eight years, House Democrats busily loaded up the bill with stuff they had been unable to get for eight years. It was payback time. Contraception, funding for the arts, restoration of the national mall, stop-smoking programs. All while Americans lose their homes, their jobs, and their savings. It was both childish and disgraceful. Apparently tone deaf to the disgust and disappointment of Americans with the bailout package for Wall Street and the banks last year, as well as the voters' strongly stated desire for change as represented by the election of Barack Obama, House Democrats set the table for failure -- again. Don't Miss * Cafferty: Is Obama having second thoughts? * The Cafferty File: Join the conversation * Jack's new book: "Now or Never" * In Depth: Commentaries Not a single Republican in the House voted for the bill, despite efforts by our new president to reach out to the other side. Nancy Pelosi strikes again. When asked if the lack of Republican support was at least partly her fault, she gave some snotty answer about not being partisan but working for the American people. Right. My guess is President Obama is busy these days sticking pins in his Nancy Pelosi doll. To his credit, Obama argued against a lot of the pork while stressing that time is our enemy. Pelosi could care less. As the legislation headed for the Senate amid cries for more stimulus and less pork, the Republicans pounced. Sensing yet another Democratic miscalculation, the Republicans seized the advantage in the debate. They want more tax cuts and more real stimulus -- stuff that will create jobs now. Not some pie in the sky proposal that may pay dividends years down the road. And they're right. The real game starts if and when the Senate passes a bill devoid of a bunch of the garbage the House Democrats stuffed into it. Then it goes to a conference committee where the drama will be whether, in a grand twist of irony, President Obama and the Republicans wind up aligned against members of the Democratic Party in an effort to get something realistic on the table before the economy simply slides the rest of the way into a deep crevasse. Meanwhile, angry voters are jamming Capitol Hill phone lines screaming about the politics as usual that is so far the hallmark of the new administration. Welcome to Washington, Mr. Obama. When it comes to the Democrats under Nancy Pelosi, what was it Pogo used to say? "We have met the enemy and it is us.""

2/10/2009 4:48:09 PM

Oh great, thanks for the freaking Jack Cafferty quote bomb of all things. Helpful.

2/10/2009 4:51:18 PM

Quote :

"Feb. 9 (Bloomberg) -- Tragically, no one from either party is objecting to the health provisions slipped in without discussion. These provisions reflect the handiwork of Tom Daschle, until recently the nominee to head the Health and Human Services Department. Senators should read these provisions and vote against them because they are dangerous to your health. (Page numbers refer to H.R. 1 EH, pdf version). The bill’s health rules will affect “every individual in the United States” (445, 454, 479). Your medical treatments will be tracked electronically by a federal system. Having electronic medical records at your fingertips, easily transferred to a hospital, is beneficial. It will help avoid duplicate tests and errors. But the bill goes further. One new bureaucracy, the National Coordinator of Health Information Technology, will monitor treatments to make sure your doctor is doing what the federal government deems appropriate and cost effective. The goal is to reduce costs and “guide” your doctor’s decisions (442, 446). These provisions in the stimulus bill are virtually identical to what Daschle prescribed in his 2008 book, “Critical: What We Can Do About the Health-Care Crisis.” According to Daschle, doctors have to give up autonomy and “learn to operate less like solo practitioners.” Daschle says health-care reform “will not be pain free.” Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that come with age instead of treating them. That means the elderly will bear the brunt. "

If Obama wants to create the Doctor Gestapo, why bury it in this bill? If it's such a good idea, then everyone should love it, especially senior citizens. Give it its own bill, proudly show it to the country.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&refer=columnist_mccaughey&sid=aLzfDxfbwhzs

[Edited on February 10, 2009 at 5:31 PM. Reason : .]

2/10/2009 5:31:20 PM

lol pogo

2/10/2009 6:07:59 PM

^^^

Quote :

"To his credit, Obama argued against a lot of the pork while stressing that time is our enemy. Pelosi could care less."

Seriously, Obama needs to fucking slap that bitch... Nancy Pelosi sucks

2/10/2009 8:23:55 PM

yeah, what a missed opportunity when the Dems in the House reelected her to Speaker. I thought for sure they'd grow some balls and replace her.

2/10/2009 9:13:10 PM

kainen, oh well if a republican supports it.. shit i gotta be all for it then... gtfo.

I dont give a shit who comes up with this bullshit, its still bullshit. Wait, most of this mess was started by encouraging people, who couldnt afford a house, to buy a house... Ive got a great idea... lets figure out a way to encourage people to buy houses... Brilliant!!!!! Its gold jerry, gold, i tell ya.

I know most people here are morally opposed to people and companies getting to keep more of what they earn and favor these kinds of bullshit handouts. Although at least with this one you gotta do SOMETHING for the money. I wonder how many people, who cant afford a house, will try to get an ARM or Neg Am loan to try to cash in on the 15k.

2/10/2009 9:50:50 PM

In general when someone pressures you into buying something without giving you time to look over what your getting, they are trying to rip you off.

Quote :

"Just Friday, Mr. Obama said a report that 600,000 jobs were lost in January meant "it's getting worse, not getting better. ... Although we had a terrible year with respect to jobs last year, the problem is accelerating, not decelerating." Last week he said, "A failure to act, and act now, will turn crisis into a catastrophe.""

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/feb/09/ramped-up-obama-rhetoric-could-backfire/

Fearmonger lately?

2/10/2009 10:10:37 PM

Quote :

"One new bureaucracy, the National Coordinator of Health Information Technology, will monitor treatments to make sure your doctor is doing what the federal government deems appropriate and cost effective. The goal is to reduce costs and “guide” your doctor’s decisions (442, 446). These provisions in the stimulus bill are virtually identical to what Daschle prescribed in his 2008 book, “Critical: What We Can Do About the Health-Care Crisis.” According to Daschle, doctors have to give up autonomy and “learn to operate less like solo practitioners.” "

Yes, no longer shall you and your doctor have tyrannical control over your health care decisions. For the good of the mother land, you must consider everyone else. Your doctors recommendations should be about what's good for society, and not just for you.

2/11/2009 12:56:46 AM

Isnt it funny how the govt wants to take control of the decisions made by you and your doctor esp when you help cover the cost of your insurance. Yet, we do NOTHING to help control the decisions of millions who choose to do nothing but make bad decisions, reproduce ,and live off the charity of others.

2/11/2009 8:34:08 AM

actually no, I don't find it funny at all to tell you the truth

2/11/2009 8:44:41 AM

B. Frank is on CNBC right now and it's obvious he is in bed with the big banks as well. They got around to asking him about "mark to market" and he at first tap danced around saying he wasn't going to make policy at 8:30am on a morning talk show, then he ultimately said (paraphrased) he didn't think mark to market was exactly fair to banks that intended to hold the assets for a long time.

2/11/2009 8:46:04 AM

Quote :

"In general when someone pressures you into buying something without giving you time to look over what your getting, they are trying to rip you off."

except for when banks and mortgage lenders do it. In that case, it's "predatory borrowers" who are the real problem, right?

2/11/2009 10:06:15 AM

Quote :

" Yet, we do NOTHING to help control the decisions of millions who choose to do nothing but make bad decisions, reproduce ,and live off the charity of others. "

This is a blatantly wrong statement, especially considering you have "NOTHING" in all caps.

2/11/2009 10:34:50 AM

Too bad the FBI won't just march in at the end of this hearing and perp-walk all 8 CEO's out of the building.

2/11/2009 10:36:23 AM

Our tax payer money hard at work to help fund banks so that Ken Lewis can get his $5 million bonus this year, CITI group
can send me a credit card application twice a week, and JP Morgan Chase so they can fuck over the consumer with their fine
print on each credit card application.

Quote :

"Yet, we do NOTHING to help control the decisions of millions who choose to do nothing but make bad decisions, reproduce ,and live off the charity of others."

The gov't should start by sterilizing that fucking bitch that has pumped out 14 babies while living on welfare, losing her house
to bankruptcy, and most likely having her hospital bills paid for by the tax payer. See my lounge thread.

[Edited on February 11, 2009 at 10:45 AM. Reason : k]

2/11/2009 10:45:18 AM

Quote :

"kainen, oh well if a republican supports it.. shit i gotta be all for it then... gtfo. I dont give a shit who comes up with this bullshit, its still bullshit. Wait, most of this mess was started by encouraging people, who couldnt afford a house, to buy a house... Ive got a great idea... lets figure out a way to encourage people to buy houses... Brilliant!!!!! Its gold jerry, gold, i tell ya. "

You are clueless and just another one of the copious armchair economists running around right now screaming what should and shouldn't be yet know ZERO about macro economics. ZERO. You're just going off of gut political positions, immature subject matter knowledge, and just plain ignorance. Congratulations, that's why we elect officials, because they know a fuck-ton more than you about this.

2/11/2009 10:46:42 AM

^ Or, just maybe, they know nothing about economics and everything about getting elected? Afterall, to be selected for the job all they had to do was get elected, no one ever handed them a quiz on economic theory.

2/11/2009 10:53:32 AM

Could go through today

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/02/11/stimulus.plan/index.html

2/11/2009 10:55:21 AM

Ahh, so that is why the market popped up.

2/11/2009 11:00:58 AM

^^^^ The majority of so-called economists don't know what they're doing either. I bet the armchair guys have as good of a hit rate as the "pros" you seem to have an affection for.

[Edited on February 11, 2009 at 11:06 AM. Reason : ]

2/11/2009 11:06:22 AM

Quote :

"Congratulations, that's why we elect officials, because they know a fuck-ton more than you about this"

whew, for a minute there I was worried but we have our BEST PEOPLE ON IT

2/11/2009 11:16:02 AM

Quote :

"Congratulations, that's why we elect officials, because they know a fuck-ton more than you about this."

lol. Kainen is def a fake account. Had me going for a while there. gg.

2/11/2009 11:49:34 AM

To be fair

You guys realize there are tons of economists on advisory for this.

Also to be fair

You guys realize that no matter what the government does: bailout, no bailout, print money and hand out bread; every news organization in the country will have a panel of 'experts' that disagree with it.

2/11/2009 12:41:40 PM

I have a couple of questions that maybe someone can answer for me:

1) The $500 tax credit....is that one that will be taken out of the payroll weekly, or is that the check for $500 similar to the $600 we got last year?
1B) If it is the latter, how would we collect if we had our taxes done and the refund advanced to us?

2) The first time home-buyer's credit, which was 7,500 last year....it is being advanced to 15000, and wont have to be paid back. Will the people who already got the 7500 be eligable for the rest of the 15000, and how will we theoretically collect that?

2/11/2009 12:44:20 PM

Well I mean basically if you guys are so damn talented at these things, go get something done and run for office. If you can't do that at least recognize that you're scope is The Wolf Web political discussion board and come to peace with that. In addition to not running yourself, if you choose not to volunteer your ideas to your representatives by emailing or phoning them in to their offices then that's your laziness that's the problem not the officials. That's democracy..go organize or fall aside.

I mean if I had 10 cents every time another armchair economist that popped out of the side hatch who thinks they've figured this mess out nowadays, I'd get Citi out of the fucking red myself. Truth is, there's no precedent for this shitheap we are in right now, and it's just a litany of best edeucated guesses even from the best of professionals out there. What we do know is that we have to decelerate said shit before anything productive can happen. If you can find credible and tangible ways to do that that aren't simply lazy cut and copy from your party's talking points, I'd love to hear them!

2/11/2009 12:50:18 PM

Quote :

"that aren't simply lazy cut and copy from your party's talking points, I'd love to hear them!"

and once again, it's not a surprise you fall back on the partisan attacks even though none of the responses had shit to do with Obama/Democrats in general

2/11/2009 1:04:39 PM

^^deceleration sounds great until you consider that it may increase the overall length of the recession

[Edited on February 11, 2009 at 1:10 PM. Reason : arrows]

2/11/2009 1:10:26 PM

^^^I like the idea of a roughly equal combination of focused tax cuts and infrastructure spending as a stimulus to get the economy back on track and people working again. What I don't like is a bloated omnibus bill crafted by Nancy Pelosi that allocates billions to pet projects that have nothing to do with an economic stimulus, such as the $400 billion for habitat restoration and mitigation activities, $140 million for climate data modeling, $2.4 billion to demonstrate carbon capture and sequestration tech, $2 billion to create the "Office for the National Coordinator for Health Information Technology", etc. etc.

When you realize that this bill is roughly 40% tax cuts and about 10% infrastructure spending, it makes you wonder where the other $400 billion dollars are being spent. And when you start digging, you realize that this is a gigantic, pork-laden spending bill with some stimulus measures tacked on, rather than vice versa.

[Edited on February 11, 2009 at 1:16 PM. Reason : 2]

2/11/2009 1:16:41 PM