why is it depressing?

7/2/2015 6:07:54 PM

I'm not sure why anyone with a college degree would accept less than $55k considering this is the median household income in America (i.e. an average that includes mostly non-college educated people).

I'd also think, considering inflation over the past few decades, no one with an engineering or other high valued degree should accept less than $100k (which is the equivalent of making $65k in 1995)... we're going to keep seeing inequality grow until people start valuing themselves more.

7/2/2015 6:25:49 PM

Umm, first of all, that's median household income, not median salary.

Second, yeah, engineering (and hard science in general) pays more, and for good reason, but $100k starting salary? Hahahaha.

You can value yourself however you want, but until you start signing your own paychecks, you don't set the value.

7/2/2015 6:55:15 PM

Yeah 100k starting is a bit much. It took me ~5 years to get there after graduating. Maybe with a master's or MBA yeah. I don't know anyone who made 100k right out of school with an engineering BS.

--although I graduated in 2009 which was a baaad time to graduate.

^^Also according to the last census (2012):

Quote :

"The median wage in the US per person is $26,695. This tells us a lot since the median household income is at $50,500. Since the Census data looks at households, this data hones in on individual wage earners. 66 percent of Americans earn less than $41,212."

Also in 1995 it looks like the average household income was slightly lower than what it is today (adjusted):



Big graph:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5c/US_Real_Household_Median_Income_thru_2012.png/1920px-US_Real_Household_Median_Income_thru_2012.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

Also I can't find where making 65k in 95 is like making 100k today...source?

[Edited on July 2, 2015 at 9:03 PM. Reason : s]

7/2/2015 8:52:42 PM

^
Regarding the 65k figure, find any inflation calculator.

Also, those numbers help make my point. They incorporate the droves of people who only have a high school education, part time workers, etc, making the same or more as people who went to college, against a rising cost of college education. If you have to put a value on what you're worth from graduating, you have to factor in what you paid to get there (which has been outpacing inflation).

Considering also that through the recovery from recession, wages have been stagnant, while unemployment has dropped, and profits are up, I can only conclude that employers are using the mental barrier of making six figures against people. There's clearly a pie we're all helping to make being made, but we're not getting our share of the source. At some point, we have to accept that a 6-figure salary isn't an accomplishment it once was.

7/2/2015 11:52:09 PM

Quote :

"Umm, first of all, that's median household income, not median salary. Second, yeah, engineering (and hard science in general) pays more, and for good reason, but $100k starting salary? Hahahaha. You can value yourself however you want, but until you start signing your own paychecks, you don't set the value."

7/4/2015 1:02:38 PM

Quote :

"You can value yourself however you want, but until you start signing your own paychecks, you don't set the value."

The massive number of college grads has certainly devalued a bachelor's degree and created a supply glut. Even in certain STEM heavy fields there's a ton of people who can't get hired. How much you paid for your degree is not something companies ever should or will take into account.

Also, a lot of the reason so many industries have record profits right now is because of cost cutting, not top line growth. Everywhere you look there's automation, technological innovation is cutting back on the minimum number of employees, and overall efficiency is rising. Until there is some top line growth that isn't going to change.

7/5/2015 10:23:06 PM

You forgot outsourcing.

7/5/2015 11:48:49 PM

Practically no kids fresh out of undergrad are worth $100k/year, that is completely ludicrous. Sure there are some but that's the exception to the rule and most are ones going into fields like investment banking where you work like 100 hours a week.

[Edited on July 6, 2015 at 11:12 AM. Reason : .]

7/6/2015 11:12:16 AM

Yeah look at this list of degrees with the top starting salaries in 2015:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2014/11/19/the-college-degrees-with-the-highest-starting-salaries-in-2015/

1. Electrical Engineering - 57,030
2. Comptuer Engineering - 56,576
3. Mechanical Engineering - 56,055
4. Software Design - 54,183
5. Computer Programming - 54,065

7/6/2015 11:28:17 AM

Whether or not they are worth it is a related question to are they getting it? I'd say yes, people are getting $100K as starting in certain fields.

I've seen people with no degree and one to three years experience ask for and get $130K as a base--you're probably underpaid.

[Edited on July 6, 2015 at 12:58 PM. Reason : a]

7/6/2015 12:55:27 PM

i think he is trying to make the point that it's depressing because wages have stagnated so much and those salaries are lower than they should be, and he made the point that people shouldn't accept them (people aren't accepting them though, the engineering field has had a huge brain drain the last decade+ to other industries that pay more)

engineers were getting starting salaries in the 45k-55k 15 years ago, that's like $60-$75k today

7/6/2015 1:01:00 PM

Starting salary is one side of the equation. The other part is the total compensation number.

I know that here at Cisco, both when I started and now for those I manage, most new grads end up making close to 100k their first year.

I have 3 new grads on my team, who work from 8-4 basically every day, plus one weekend shift (6 hours) each week and maybe 6 hours on half the corporate holidays. Doing that, they end up pulling in ~61k + 30k (weekend/holidays) + ~ 6% bonus --- plus all the benefits, free lunches, etc that I use to keep the morale up.

In the valley, I know most make more than that their first years by about 15% I would say.

7/6/2015 1:06:45 PM

the cost of living equivalent of $100k in the valley is probably ~$65k here

7/6/2015 1:16:11 PM

^^So 61k base plus 30k in holidays/OT? Also if that's in the Valley then sure. Cost of living is a HUGE factor for salaries. I know I'd be making a lot more if I lived in NYC or San Francisco.

Quote :

"I've seen people with no degree and one to three years experience ask for and get $130K as a base--you're probably underpaid."

There's anomalies everywhere. No college degree and making 130k as base isn't exactly normal...s

[Edited on July 6, 2015 at 1:32 PM. Reason : s]

7/6/2015 1:29:18 PM

I got a nice bump when I moved to Hawaii, and I was able to negotiate it as a raise instead of a COLA so I get to keep it when I transfer again down the road.

Safe to say that most people don't do enough in terms of salary negotiation. The worst they can do is say no. Well, I guess actually the worst they can do is withdraw an offer and go back to looking at other candidates. Fortunately, most of the time if they've already chosen to make an offer to you they won't be too enthused about going back into the pool of people they liked less than you or starting all over,unless you're a real dick about how you go about negotiating.

7/6/2015 1:37:58 PM

They really aren't anomalies anymore--the good six figure salaries at reputable companies have turned into $200K+ base salaries with equity/bonus. Not even just in Silicon Valley, even in cheaper CA locations and Washington. I had coworkers in Raleigh making $130K when I was still there five years ago, and if they pay that much then the high cost of living places have to bump up to compete.

They have to compete the startups paying $120K and a dream of becoming mega rich.

http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/software-engineer-salary-SRCH_KO0,17_SDAS.htm

[Edited on July 6, 2015 at 2:14 PM. Reason : a]

7/6/2015 2:14:14 PM

Yes but with only a highschool degree? You said with no degree.

7/6/2015 2:23:36 PM

I have tons of friends that graduated with me in 2009 that are struggling to clear $35-40k a year and they have pretty good degrees (economics, accounting, finance, etc.). Some of them are just now getting jobs in their actual field after working SECU call center, insurance sales pyramid schemes, or the food/service/retail industry the past several years. At least for non-STEM degrees, I think your internships, etc. you did during college matter more than the degree itself.

7/6/2015 2:27:58 PM

It'll never happen because universities are so money driven, but it would be nice if they could go to a much shorter model for bachelor's degrees. So much of college is a waste of time. I'm glad I have my degree from NC State but some of the requirements for graduation are idiotic. I'm an adult, did I really need to take a PE class or 2 years of foreign language that you never use and have lost within a year of the last class?

The IT industry has a lot of this right with being more concerned with certifications and ability than with a degree.

7/6/2015 2:36:28 PM

I for one enjoyed my bowling class. I think I tested out of Spanish from highschool.

7/6/2015 3:10:37 PM

I had to get out of mechanical engineering and go into software to double mine.

7/6/2015 3:43:44 PM

I've posted earlier, but I'll update:
BS in technology education
BS in graphic communication
MEd in technology education, minor in Industrial Design

Middle school teacher in CMS for $31,000.
Crappy benefits
No negotiation.
55+hours a week

Quality Manager $45,000-57,000
Crappy benefits
Minimal negotiation
40-75 hours a week

Quality Engineer $~70
Excellent health, 401k contribution, vacation days (start at 10 and goes up every year), cost of living raise every year, annual performance bonus (company and personal objectives)
No negotiation, offer was higher than I was expecting
40-50 hours a week


I graduated in Dec 09, and hit the double original salary Sept 2014, so about 5 years.
I'm making over 70k at this point, but not sure if I'll ever reach 100k.
The benefits of getting out of teaching were immediate, but not being a 'real' engineer caps some of my opportunities.
I'm a Quality Engineer for a small/mid sized, international manufacturing company.
I'm responsible for all automotive, aerospace, medical, and industrial applications of our products in the US.

7/6/2015 7:44:12 PM

"^^So 61k base plus 30k in holidays/OT? Also if that's in the Valley then sure. Cost of living is a HUGE factor for salaries. I know I'd be making a lot more if I lived in NYC or San Francisco. "

No that's here in RTP.

7/7/2015 9:56:05 AM

Gotcha.

7/7/2015 10:51:12 AM

I don't feel like starting a new thread, but note to those of you in management. Make sure that you, or the person doing the interview can speak English. I applied for a job and went in for an interview today. The lady who interviewed me was Asian and had a lot of trouble speaking English. She said something about the office manager was out. The pay was too low and I wasn't interested once I found out the details about the position, so I don't care.

7/7/2015 1:04:21 PM

^ I am absolutely baffled that you are having trouble finding a job.

7/7/2015 1:49:18 PM

Quote :

"Major : History"

7/7/2015 2:02:32 PM

Quote :

"Make sure that you, or the person doing the interview can speak English."

7/7/2015 3:02:14 PM

so as long as someone is speaking English, then we're all good?

7/7/2015 3:08:17 PM

got that GS-14 today! well, I was notified of it today...goes into effect this Sunday.

4/10/2017 7:00:41 PM

You're an NCSU grad and a GS-14 is your starting salary

Put it in a federal employee thread

4/10/2017 9:50:29 PM

not a starting salary, been at this for 5 years lol...started as a 9

4/10/2017 11:45:59 PM

Been a grad since December 2015 and no one will hire me because they think I am too high for entry level but too under for what they are looking for. Essentially, BS. I have two undergraduate degrees and people working everywhere I have interviewed have less experience than me, less education, but are younger. Me thinks there is more to the story.

4/10/2017 11:50:31 PM

Most likely that is the case, I now hold two Masters and I'm working on a Doctoral...you'd think someone would want me for a University Job even though I keep applying but nope.

4/11/2017 12:24:31 AM

I have two master's and working on a doctorate as well

University jobs are extremely fickle. Funding gets pulled, positions are predetermined for internal people but have to be advertised anyway (most likely scenario), etc. I think I applied to 50 jobs at State before I accepted one, although I interviewed for a few others that just weren't a good fit for me after I had a chance to talk to them more. I had also worked there as a temp/contract employee prior to that. Don't give up if you really want it.

4/11/2017 3:48:48 PM

I have an undergrad degree and never want to go back to school.

4/11/2017 4:44:02 PM

^
this.

4/11/2017 5:13:47 PM

As it turns out, there is more to an employee than their university degrees.

4/11/2017 6:31:23 PM

I spent 2011-2015 getting a masters degree in CS, one class at a time. I'd say it's working out pretty well, but I only have one data point... so who knows.

4/11/2017 6:46:09 PM

i see a lot of good ol' boy system in my company. Majority of VP and upper management has univ of phoenix degrees the company funded years ago.

4/11/2017 7:05:24 PM

I have a biological science degree, finance degree and Spanish minor and I lease/sell commercial real estate and flip houses as a hobby.

Been on a fun upward trajectory where every year was better than the last except last year, which was still my second best year. This year, I'm already at 60% of my best year to date.

Id say I work about 35 hours a week with an hour a day talking to colleagues.

4/11/2017 7:43:05 PM

sag1804 just wants a damn job. If it pays 15.00 I will take it at this point.
Was hired by a said company, after I told them multiple times about a wedding I was in and was out of the country. The Thursday before I was to start they said, thanks but not thanks good luck in your future endeavors. Now the job only paid 45K, but that is better than the 0 I have been getting since December 31, 2016.

4/12/2017 12:15:44 AM

Go get your broker's license and if not, start wholesaling houses.

4/12/2017 8:20:19 AM

Quote :

"As it turns out, there is more to an employee than their university degrees."

some salt in here.

4/12/2017 10:10:05 AM

I'm salty. I came across this thread while hunting for eggs, and it pissed me off.

4/13/2017 8:23:55 AM

Quote :

"i see a lot of good ol' boy system in my company. Majority of VP and upper management has univ of phoenix degrees the company funded years ago."

Kind of the same here. When my original boss was fired at the place I work at, the regional vice president transferred his friend to my branch. Then I trained my new boss since I knew how to do more than him. I've learned that in a lot of situations you have to know people and you have to get lucky when it comes to jobs and promotions.

4/13/2017 7:58:03 PM

No undergrad
major was comp sci though

was a systems engineer making 45k
top notch medical/dental/eye - had multiple surgeries for $0 out of pocket
No negotiation.
~25hrs/week
raleigh

solutions architect $150k-350k
benefits were mostly the same to me (single, no kids) minus the HQ conveniences
negotiated stock, not salary
40-60 hours a week

director of special projects/R&D - $paycut but lots of pre-IPO equity
year, annual performance bonus (company and personal objectives)
negotiated on equity because that mattered more and I walked away from a lot of vesting stock that was worth real money
~40 on average


I never graduated. I got shit raises within the company until I left, then I tripled my salary. Best advice I could give for anyone in their 20s and 30s is to only stay at a place while you're learning A LOT and to change companies regularly if you want to grow your salary. Staying in place or staying at your first job is only something I'd reserve for a company that has a sweet retirement like coke or the gov't.

I used to make cloud services and help mobile and gaming companies build/launch/scale their products and product infrastructure. Now I'm building a net new product that will (hopefully) change how people use and think about cloud.

I'm going to grad school, but it's just for fun and personal betterment.

4/16/2017 8:56:36 PM

Quote :

" I got shit raises within the company until I left, then I tripled my salary. Best advice I could give for anyone in their 20s and 30s is to only stay at a place while you're learning A LOT and to change companies regularly if you want to grow your salary. "

agree with this. I see so many talented/hardworking people that are just too complacent.

Also, how are you going to grad school if you never finished undergrad?

4/16/2017 10:07:45 PM

^agreed, and wish I had learned it sooner.

I got comfortable at the same company for 8 years, and had "meh" 5% raises every year. I never knew how in-demand I was until I started interviewing elsewhere for fun. Had two offers to move out to the bay area, one of which was a 54% raise, the other a 67% raise.

4/17/2017 1:41:53 AM