Quote :

"http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/03/opinion/sunday/why-blue-states-are-the-real-tea-party.html?smid=pl-share&_r=0"

seems right that blue states pay more since its their bad ideas to start the programs to start with

12/5/2016 8:34:25 PM

Without CA, Trump would have won 306 of the necessary 242 electoral college votes needed, to Clinton's 177, and would have won 1,600,000 more votes than Clinton.

SUPERMEGALANDSLIDE!!!!

12/5/2016 11:32:23 PM

Cool. Can you give me a similar breakdown of how the US economy would look without CA too?

12/6/2016 7:36:31 AM

Subtract $2.4 T from $17.9T

The US would still have the largest economy in the world by a wide margin.

12/6/2016 1:25:45 PM

And california would lose 11 military bases, the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Lawrence Livermore Laboratory, the Joint Genome Institute, Lawrence Berkley Laboratory, and who knows how many other government funded institutions.

so there's that

12/6/2016 5:19:19 PM

So in this fantasy land do all these big companies just stay in California?

12/6/2016 6:15:25 PM

^if they can still make similar money why not, a free trade deal could be worked out

political unions should be voluntary right

12/6/2016 6:25:09 PM

^^ why wouldn't they?

Why on earth would SV's companies relocate? The tech industry would LOVE an independent CA.

12/6/2016 6:49:22 PM

Laughable to think Predident Trump would allow CA to secede and the pass a free trade deal with them.

12/7/2016 3:06:13 PM

So remind me again why SV companies would be ecstatic for an independent California. Do they feel like they pay too much federal taxes, and an independent California would have lower taxes? Or is it more than that?

12/7/2016 3:37:34 PM

^You clearly don't understand the UJW84's rules of this thread. See, he makes a claim and then expects YOU to tell him why it's not realistic.

12/7/2016 6:10:33 PM

^^ um, maybe because they wanted to Gerrymander the state and break into into six parts, so they wouldn't have to deal with the red taker parts of the state?

You really think Apple, Oracle, Google, Facebook, Intel, eBay, HP, Tesla, Cisco, Intuit, etc would just bounce and want nothing to do with an independent CA? LOL that's cute.

^Have you ever visited California?

[Edited on December 7, 2016 at 7:28 PM. Reason : .]

12/7/2016 7:28:02 PM

Yes, I've been to California. That's not relevant to either your's or my point.

Quote :

"Why on earth would SV's companies relocate? The tech industry would LOVE an independent CA."

Quote :

"You really think Apple, Oracle, Google, Facebook, Intel, eBay, HP, Tesla, Cisco, Intuit, etc would just bounce and want nothing to do with an independent CA? LOL that's cute."

This exactly what I'm talking about. You've made a big claim (Twice in 2 posts), with absolutely ZERO evidence, and then expect people to debate with you. You did the same thing on pages 1 and 2 of this thread. Take this stuff to chitchat.

12/7/2016 8:49:35 PM

So I can't speak for the entire tech industry, but I can anecdotally offer up the fact that the party meetings I've been to have been comprised mostly of tech nerds who work in SV. These are people who've been part of the party for way longer than I have. Maybe it's just a coincidence though. I work in education, so what do I know about SV and tech?

[Edited on December 8, 2016 at 3:27 PM. Reason : .]

12/8/2016 3:24:46 PM

I'm still waiting for you to name which of Trump's decisions/policies/proposals warrant such an extreme proposal.

Especially when you consider how much flip flopping he has done, and the softening towards center after winning the primary and election.

I mean, I understand as someone in Californian academia you have no chance of viewing the outside world objectively, but surely you can fathom, on some level, how laughably childish Calexit is to the rest of America?

12/8/2016 5:52:11 PM

Reread my previous comments about Trump. I'm done responding to you unless you have actual questions about the CNP platform, as opposed to posting nothing other than ad-hominems.

[Edited on December 8, 2016 at 8:16 PM. Reason : troll]

12/8/2016 8:09:19 PM

OOOOOK... so you're saying anecdotally, that the people you've talked to at meetings associated with this movement tend to work in the SV/Tech industry, and believe that an independent CA would be great, and that their companies offices (buildings/property/employees) would remain geographically located in CA? Is that correct?

12/8/2016 10:34:15 PM

has anyone explained how water rights would be handled? and doesn't california import almost all of its energy?

does california think it would have the upper hand negotiating a trade deal with the US?

is the calexit movement addressing the fact that some that want to leave are wealthy libertarian types, this wouldn't be a purely liberal oasis? if they won a vote, has anyone talked about how to handle the probably millions of voters who voted against so that the state doesn't fracture?

has the movement addressed the reaction of the US (especially considering that it would be pretty well right when the californians leave), the fact that the US has military and transportation national interests in the state that it would be unlikely to give up? how about other federal property located in the state?

so far the only answers i've seen have been "well we will technology our way out of these problems"

12/9/2016 9:49:15 AM

Quote :

"OOOOOK... so you're saying anecdotally, that the people you've talked to at meetings associated with this movement tend to work in the SV/Tech industry, and believe that an independent CA would be great, and that their companies offices (buildings/property/employees) would remain geographically located in CA? Is that correct?"

Correct. Some of them even own their own tech companies. How weird is that? There are even doctors, lawyers, data scientists, people who work for the media, other college profs, graphic designers, and all sorts if other interesting people I've met too.



[Edited on December 9, 2016 at 1:06 PM. Reason : .]

12/9/2016 1:02:57 PM

I'm going to hypothesize that everyone in the US loves dogs, because everyone I talk to at the dog park agrees with me. Some of them are even doctors, college profs, lawyers, small business owners!

Do you get why people have posted that you're living in a bubble?

12/9/2016 7:49:17 PM

Where have I ever denied that I live in a bubble? I have acknowledged it throughout this entire thread. Yes, the Bay Area is not the same as the rest of the country, nor the rest of the state. So what?

12/9/2016 8:00:24 PM

Quote :

"has anyone explained how water rights would be handled? and doesn't california import almost all of its energy? does california think it would have the upper hand negotiating a trade deal with the US? is the calexit movement addressing the fact that some that want to leave are wealthy libertarian types, this wouldn't be a purely liberal oasis? if they won a vote, has anyone talked about how to handle the probably millions of voters who voted against so that the state doesn't fracture? has the movement addressed the reaction of the US (especially considering that it would be pretty well right when the californians leave), the fact that the US has military and transportation national interests in the state that it would be unlikely to give up? how about other federal property located in the state? so far the only answers i've seen have been "well we will technology our way out of these problems" "

12/9/2016 8:06:01 PM

https://www.californianational.party/en/platform/plan-for-growth/

You can read the party stance in that link. I think water is way bigger of an issue than power, fwiw.

12/9/2016 8:15:13 PM

that only answers the first point, water and energy, and it doesn't answer them. This is the relevant part of your link:

Quote :

"Investment in water infrastructure Urban water collection should be the norm. Israeli model is a good reference point here. Meters for the whole state (large areas of CA have no water meters!) Ban on neighborhood associations and other private entities fining people for not watering lawns. Green roofs and other water saving tech mandated on all new State buildings in short term and added to building code as a requirement over the long term. Major govt-sponsored research into desalination to make CA the world leader in this technology so we can become a water exporter. The desert southwest should be importing water from CA long term instead of the other way around. Keep 51% state ownership in desalination operations so revenue can support state budgets in future and repay the up-front taxpayer investment. Profits from this venture should be split between the Innovation fund and the State’s reserve fund outlined in the Platform for Prosperity. Investment in water infrastructure to move water from coastal desal to rural farming communities and ensure access to water for our farmers. Investment in power infrastructure Work in partnership with Californian industry through the innovation fund to make us a leader in green energy and smooth the transition to a post-carbon economy. China is making massive investments into Solar production, for instance, and achieving economies of scale that privately funded American industry cannot match. We need focussed investment into green energy and methods to reduce the carbon footprint of industry. Patents on this technology will give Californian businesses an edge in the coming post-carbon economy and be a valuable asset in their own right. The CNP advocates a permanent and immediate ban on Fracking within the Republic of California. Fracking encourages dependences on fossil fuel technology, endangers our water supply, and causes earthquakes."

so the answer to water seems to mainly be technologying their way out of it through desalinization

and the energy seems to be technologyying their way out of it through green energy

doesn't california import like 90% of its electricity from out of state natural gas sources, is it even possible to replace that much energy with green energy? do they think they will be able to negotiate the same trade deals?

none of this seems seriously thought out, it all seems based on a falsehood that the US will be okay with them leaving and not fight it and will give them favorable trade deals

12/9/2016 8:25:27 PM

Quote :

"Where have I ever denied that I live in a bubble? I have acknowledged it throughout this entire thread. Yes, the Bay Area is not the same as the rest of the country, nor the rest of the state. So what?"

My point, much like my point on the first couple of pages, is that you haven't done the critical thinking necessary intelligently argue for this CALEXIT idea. It seems that you've gotten your data and ideas from the group meetings and haven't done much thinking outside of that. (Hence my Dog park statement)

Your entire argument is based on a fantasy world that this movement has created which is fueled by largely constitutional arguments (that you've said you're familiar with) that were compromised on a while ago.
The argument that "California’s electoral votes haven’t affected a presidential election since 1876" is simply not true. To argue that because it's not a swing state that it has NO effect is ludicrous.
The argument that "The only reason terrorists might want to attack us is because we are part of the United States and are guilty by association. Not being a part of that country will make California a less likely target of retaliation by its enemies." shows a real lack of understanding of international politics and the history of modern salafi jihadism. France and GB are largely western nations who aren't the US and have been attacked MORE!
The infrastructure and education arguments are poor because those are state programs. I recognize the funding argument associated with these, but I still believe that overall it's short-sighted, and ignores the reality of the costs of sovereignty (military, diplomatic, environmental).

12/10/2016 10:07:34 AM

Quote :

"Investment in water infrastructure Urban water collection should be the norm. Israeli model is a good reference point here. Meters for the whole state (large areas of CA have no water meters!) Ban on neighborhood associations and other private entities fining people for not watering lawns. Green roofs and other water saving tech mandated on all new State buildings in short term and added to building code as a requirement over the long term. Major govt-sponsored research into desalination to make CA the world leader in this technology so we can become a water exporter. The desert southwest should be importing water from CA long term instead of the other way around. Keep 51% state ownership in desalination operations so revenue can support state budgets in future and repay the up-front taxpayer investment. Profits from this venture should be split between the Innovation fund and the State’s reserve fund outlined in the Platform for Prosperity. Investment in water infrastructure to move water from coastal desal to rural farming communities and ensure access to water for our farmers. Investment in power infrastructure Work in partnership with Californian industry through the innovation fund to make us a leader in green energy and smooth the transition to a post-carbon economy. China is making massive investments into Solar production, for instance, and achieving economies of scale that privately funded American industry cannot match. We need focussed investment into green energy and methods to reduce the carbon footprint of industry. Patents on this technology will give Californian businesses an edge in the coming post-carbon economy and be a valuable asset in their own right. The CNP advocates a permanent and immediate ban on Fracking within the Republic of California. Fracking encourages dependences on fossil fuel technology, endangers our water supply, and causes earthquakes.""

What is stopping California from doing this now? How is the federal government prohibiting you from doing this?

[Edited on December 12, 2016 at 10:47 PM. Reason : Also, thats a lot of spelling errors]

12/12/2016 10:47:34 PM

Quote :

"Reread my previous comments about Trump. I'm done responding to you unless you have actual questions about the CNP platform, as opposed to posting nothing other than ad-hominems"

I honestly didn't see anything of substance against Trump, except, ironically, ad-hominems.

12/13/2016 1:43:55 AM

^I'll keep it simple for you: his cabinet choices and Twitter account say all there's needed to be said about him and his 'policies'

^^ eh, mostly capitalization errors, but point taken. And as for "what's stopping CA" from investing billions of dollars in green technology and infrastructure? Uh, sending $18B a year to DC? Maybe? IDK, I'm not an economist.

^^^ Look,we are going in circles and I'm not quite sure why you're still hanging around and participating in this thread since you think I'm nuts. You obviously disagree with the entire premise and think I'm being ridiculous, so why bother with me at all? I've already said this whole #calexit thing isn't going to happen anytime soon (and realistically, EVER). But that's not going to stop me from participating on a local/grassroots level to help bring visible changes to my community. While CA may never become a fully independent nation, it can definitely work to distance itself from Washington and try its best to be more self reliant and self sufficient. I don't see anything wrong with taking more of an ownership in my community and encouraging others to do the same. What exactly are YOU doing to make where you live a better place?

[Edited on December 13, 2016 at 12:09 PM. Reason : .]

12/13/2016 12:08:06 PM

I, for one, encourage you to waste you time on a futile effort.

[Edited on December 13, 2016 at 12:36 PM. Reason : And I can confirm, based on your comments in this thread, you are no economist.]

12/13/2016 12:35:42 PM

Quote :

"^I'll keep it simple for you: his cabinet choices and Twitter account say all there's needed to be said about him and his 'policies' "

I'm not in your echo chamber. Saying "just look at what he did, see? Proof he's bad" isn't an effective argument outside of your echo chamber.

I'll keep it simple for you and give you an example of how it works from the other side:

Clinton used her office to trade Clinton Foundation donations for political favors, then used bleach bit to acid wash the evidence from her email archives, deleting 30,000+ emails AFTER a congressional subpoena. She then avoided any punishment as the DOJ and possibly FBI were politicized and compromised (Bill's meeting with Lynch the day of). So here we have a corrupt criminal that is the embodiment of everything that is wrong with our politics, about to avoid prison and become the most powerful person on earth with the ability to nominate activist justices to twist the constitution as they see fit, and grant amnesty to millions of illegal aliens that will vote for big government 8 to 1, meanwhile the media is COMPLETELY in bed with her, convincing the unaware and compliant citizenry that she is good and her opposition is ____ist or ____phobic.

Fortunately though an Orange billionaire grabbed the DNC by the pussy, and probably pushed back the Marxists 50 years or so.

12/13/2016 12:57:45 PM

12/13/2016 12:59:14 PM

lol, this guy is too much

12/13/2016 1:05:55 PM

What? Hold on, let me use my DNC hack translater app:

"I have no argument other than ad hominems"

Okay fair enough

12/13/2016 1:30:35 PM

12/13/2016 1:33:10 PM

lol, he accuses people of ad hominem attacks, but ANYTIME anybody disagrees with him (or just makes fun of his ignorance), they're "DNC Hacks", or whatever Ad Hominem attack that Rush or Alex Jones or whoever he gets his info from that is supposedly outside of the "Echo Chamber" is currently using. It's cute.

12/13/2016 1:38:02 PM

^ Its actually merited though. Hack or SJW is a very fitting label for half of the leftists on TWW.


bruh if u triggered you should just secede from the nation

[Edited on December 13, 2016 at 1:43 PM. Reason : .]

12/13/2016 1:41:31 PM

12/13/2016 1:43:53 PM

Can you do that text for me with:

"Hillary Clinton acid-washed 30k emails in defiance of a congressional subpoena"

12/13/2016 1:49:26 PM

Quote :

"Clinton used her office to trade Clinton Foundation donations for political favors"

How is that different from Trump blatantly handing out cabinet positions to his high dollar donors?

Quote :

"DOJ and possibly FBI were politicized and compromised"

This is conjecture by the right, and mostly just butthurt backlash that nothing could be made from this 'scandal' to begin with.

Quote :

"So here we have a corrupt criminal that is the embodiment of everything that is wrong with our politics"

So now we have a corrupt, belligerent, and childish billionaire with no concept of 'real' America getting handed the reigns to this country. He will gut our natural resources, roll back climate change policy decades, privatize public schools, legislate what women can do with their bodies, and push back LGBT civil rights. Not to mention all the while keeping hold of his businesses and enriching himself at Americans' expense. And the icing on the cake will be the world war the naively starts from having no (and wanting no) knowledge of international diplomacy/intelligence.

12/13/2016 1:50:21 PM

12/13/2016 1:52:32 PM

Quote :

"Look,we are going in circles and I'm not quite sure why you're still hanging around and participating in this thread since you think I'm nuts. You obviously disagree with the entire premise and think I'm being ridiculous, so why bother with me at all? I've already said this whole #calexit thing isn't going to happen anytime soon (and realistically, EVER). But that's not going to stop me from participating on a local/grassroots level to help bring visible changes to my community. While CA may never become a fully independent nation, it can definitely work to distance itself from Washington and try its best to be more self reliant and self sufficient. I don't see anything wrong with taking more of an ownership in my community and encouraging others to do the same. What exactly are YOU doing to make where you live a better place?"

So, you believe that participation in a SEPARATIST MOVEMENT, that even you agree isn't based on any real expectation of reality, will help bring [positive] visible changes to your community? I would ask how, but I'm afraid you'll say "how would it not!?!?"
As for your moral high-ground, "what am I doing" bullshit argument; take that shit to chitchat. You can bitch, whine, and complain about the election all you want there, because that's what it's for. That statement boils down to "I have no counterargument, so... uhhh... I'm better than you because I care about the community"... Fuck off.

12/13/2016 5:26:10 PM

Quote :

"How is that different from Trump blatantly handing out cabinet positions to his high dollar donors?"

A president elect nominating donors is business as usual. An acting Secretary of State trading political favors for cash from George Soros, Quatar, Saudis, is not.

Quote :

"This is conjecture by the right, and mostly just butthurt backlash that nothing could be made from this 'scandal' to begin with."

No, the backlash was you indoctrinated corruption-apologist hacks getting your ASSES WHOOPED (bigly, believe me) this election, because the corrupt af DNC tried to elevate Clinton above the law, and fortunately the slim majority of the country was smart enough to not vote for who the media told them to vote for.

Quote :

" So now we have a corrupt, belligerent, and childish billionaire with no concept of 'real' America getting handed the reigns to this country. He will gut our natural resources, roll back climate change policy decades, privatize public schools, legislate what women can do with their bodies, and push back LGBT civil rights. Not to mention all the while keeping hold of his businesses and enriching himself at Americans' expense. And the icing on the cake will be the world war the naively starts from having no (and wanting no) knowledge of international diplomacy/intelligence."

LOL. Go back to your HuffPo echo-chamber. I'm sure they will do a better job validating your baseless, emotional hysteria over the second coming of "literally Hitler"

12/13/2016 7:00:35 PM

Quote :

"So, you believe that participation in a SEPARATIST MOVEMENT, that even you agree isn't based on any real expectation of reality, will help bring [positive] visible changes to your community? I would ask how, but I'm afraid you'll say "how would it not!?!?" As for your moral high-ground, "what am I doing" bullshit argument; take that shit to chitchat. You can bitch, whine, and complain about the election all you want there, because that's what it's for. That statement boils down to "I have no counterargument, so... uhhh... I'm better than you because I care about the community"... Fuck off."

In theory, yes, it's a separatist movement. The ultimate goal is an autonomous CA that would have a close alliance with the US as a trade partner. For the last fucking time, it's not going to happen anytime soon. Why is it a bad thing for CA to try and distance itself from the rest of the country right now? You think Californians really think that Trump is going to make California a better place to live?

As for visible changes in my community? Uh, I already work at a public university and community college and I try my best to stay involved and have a positive impact. What the fuck do you do for a living? My students care about the price and quality of their education, and many of them have already expressed interest in forming a CNP club because they (like I do) feel like it aligns with a lot of their values. The immediate goals for the CNP are to register enough party voters to show up on the ballot in state and local level elections and run winnable candidates. So, by going to party meetings, voter outreach events, city counsel meetings, and working with others on community service projects alongside the CNP, yeah, I'd like to think I have the potential to make a difference in the place I live. You can shit on me for at least trying something to be proactive, but that's more of a reflection of the type of person you are than anything else. So nah, YOU can go fuck off

12/14/2016 11:41:51 AM

Quote :

""How is that different from Trump blatantly handing out cabinet positions to his high dollar donors?""

Not that this is the appropriate thread for this, but is this really a valid criticism of Trump? Too be fair, he has had a lot of (very valid) criticisms and concerns, but I had not heard of this one.

Quote :

" I already work at a public university and community college and I try my best to stay involved and have a positive impact."

You probably talk with your eyes closed and like the smell of your own farts, dont you?.

12/14/2016 12:36:47 PM

Yes, we've all seen that South Park episode. GG.

12/14/2016 12:45:39 PM

And yet, here you are...

12/14/2016 12:46:52 PM

A liberal arts teacher in a CNP club at a university in California.

An echo-chamber within an echo-chamber within an echo-chamber. Only in such a bubble can such fragile leftist ideologies exist.

Hurry up and secede before Trump builds his yuuge beautiful wall, so we can add another buffer between CA and Trump's America aka Nazi Germany.

12/14/2016 1:41:02 PM

^^And yet you're still following me around in this thread.

12/14/2016 2:14:05 PM

https://www.good.is/features/calexit-california-independence

12/14/2016 4:15:30 PM

Quote :

"In theory, yes, it's a separatist movement. The ultimate goal is an autonomous CA that would have a close alliance with the US as a trade partner. For the last fucking time, it's not going to happen anytime soon. Why is it a bad thing for CA to try and distance itself from the rest of the country right now? You think Californians really think that Trump is going to make California a better place to live? As for visible changes in my community? Uh, I already work at a public university and community college and I try my best to stay involved and have a positive impact. What the fuck do you do for a living? My students care about the price and quality of their education, and many of them have already expressed interest in forming a CNP club because they (like I do) feel like it aligns with a lot of their values. The immediate goals for the CNP are to register enough party voters to show up on the ballot in state and local level elections and run winnable candidates. So, by going to party meetings, voter outreach events, city counsel meetings, and working with others on community service projects alongside the CNP, yeah, I'd like to think I have the potential to make a difference in the place I live. You can shit on me for at least trying something to be proactive, but that's more of a reflection of the type of person you are than anything else. So nah, YOU can go fuck off "

See... this is my whole point. You said way back on page 2 (a month ago) that YOU were looking for logical attacks against the CALexit idea. Now that you've heard all of them, and only really were able to counter the education and water arguments, you've made some mental leap in your brain to believe that because of what you do for a living, that you're somehow smarter, or better informed than I am, and THUS your view on the topic is somehow more logical. At no point did I shit on you for trying to make your community better. What I did was [sarcastically] question your logic on how participation in the CALexit movement, and your counter again is a personal attack about who I am?? This is chitchat bullshit. Every time you've said where you work you've used it to somehow back up your authority on the subject without giving any facts. Furthermore, you've now gone on to use personal attacks. I find it really ironic that you've referenced Trump while using very similar tactics that he did to avoid defending any real platform. You've effectively said "Believe me, I know."

12/14/2016 6:24:26 PM