Well I have a large list.

For starters the game was 10 years in development and plays like it's in beta. It was fun at first and not evident until you run Act 1/2/3 for the 100000th time how bad it really is. There is so little replay value, and the time/reward ratio is so far off. You are basically playing hoping to hit the lottery and find an item that can bankroll you to get to the next act where you are hoping to find an item to bankroll you to the next act. I mean how many times can you kill the Butcher and not get anything decent from it?

And I actually like farming games. I don't mind grinding. But this isn't grinding or farming. It is just random dumb luck and there is no part of the game that rewards any time spent playing. For example I played Aion, and everyone hated that game because it was so grindy. There were quests where you had to kill like 1000 elites. But at least after you killed 1000 elites you were guaranteed a great item. I mean in my profile I've killed almost 10k elites, I've gotten like 3 items of note. That means I've seen probably 20-30,000 items and 3 were actually really good, and none were anything amazing. Other people have killed 1000 elites and got 5 amazing items and then just bought their way through the game.

No PvP sucks. The class balance is horrible. The lack of useful builds, and amount of worthless skills. You pretty much have 1 MAYBE 2 endgame setups for certain classes that are viable. That makes those items priced through the roof. For example, if they didn't nerf the hell out of Lifesteal so much maybe it would be a viable alternative to LoH. But LoH is far superior so anything with LoH is way to expensive. The rest of the itemization is just boring.

Then you go to things like finding iLvl 63 items that are worse than lvl 55 items. Lvl 60 Legendaries that are worse than lvl 50 rares.

Moving on to magic find, that is the dumbest thing ever in the game. They can't figure out how to put it into the game correctly, so they just keep nerfing it and nerfing it. They then nerf chests/breaking things yet you can still bot that dumb elite in the basement of Act 1 over and over and have been able to since the game started.

Other issues include annoying rubber banding, server issues, no clan support or any type of real social feature to the game, AH has 3 search filters yet items have 6 affixes? The constant fear that whatever you just spent 20million on might be nerfed in the next patch, elites that get random affixes that make them unkillable(like for example, elites shouldn't have multiple CC if we only have 1 spell to break it). Why molten kills you instantly even with 1000 resist nobody can figure out and Blizzard won't address. They seem to have no actual plan for the game that they have made public.

I mean I know I got some entertainment out of the game, heck I made money from the game. But as someone who played original Diablo,D2, Warcraft, Starcraft, Sc2... this game is a pile of garbage. I mean if you just take a sample of everyone in this thread who started playing I think most have quit, and most quit saying that the game is horrible.

Sorry for such a long bitching post, but they just phoned this game in so bad, I can't believe it will be the fastest selling PC game and probably for a long time. They made a shitpot of money off a pile of garbage.

8/7/2012 12:01:45 AM

^You don't have to worry about me being pissed. I think alot of people have the same issues, as I do know there are tons of complaints about the game.

I agree that grinding for items is to a ridiculous level. There are times where I can play for 3-4 hours and not get an upgrade for either of my level 60 characters. Then there are times where I can play for 1 hour and get 2-3 upgrades. I think that with people using the auction house to buy items, it has made the grinding no fun anymore. Why grind for hours and hours when you can go buy the weapon that you want for next to nothing?

Class balance I am not sure about. I trust that its terrible, however I don't have the experience with other classes to give an opinion. I do see a majority of players in public games being either Barbarian or Wizard with a spattering of DH and Monk. Rarely do i see a witch doctor.

I REALLY hate that iLvl 63 items can be worse than lvl 55 items. WHY? If this iLvl 63 item is worse than a 55 item, shouldnt it be a 54 item? Whats the point of making it 63?

Also magic find does seem to be broken. There are times when i have 80 magic find, and get 2-3 rares and times when I have 180 magic find and get 1 rare per mob. Really? If i'm gonna pretty much nerf my character to get better items, shouldn't I be rewarded?

So, as you see, I too have lots of gripes about the game. However, I still am finding a way to enjoy it. I partially think it is because I don't use the auction house...at all. Therefore, I still have lots of room to upgrade my character and each item that drops could be that next item that moves my character along.

8/7/2012 5:17:59 AM

Quote :

"Also magic find does seem to be broken. There are times when i have 80 magic find, and get 2-3 rares and times when I have 180 magic find and get 1 rare per mob. Really? If i'm gonna pretty much nerf my character to get better items, shouldn't I be rewarded?"

I agree with this.

I've got like 250 now in act 1 inferno - get a TON of drops but none seem worth a fuck.

When i had like 50 MF it seemed i had found those or two items that would bankroll me. I haven't found those since i've broke 200 MF.

8/7/2012 7:11:04 AM

Yeah when I do play I've been running act 1 and 2 with 300+ MF.

I get a ton of yellows doing that, but it still comes down to getting good random rolls which I don't. A blue lvl 55 item or yellow lvl 55 item is going to be worthless either way.

And I'm not saying I want to play for an hour and get 10 upgrades. I don't even care if I play for 10 hours and get no upgrades. But right now the odds of getting something good are just so low that it isn't even worth it. Unless you are a DH farming act 3 with 300 MF...

There are just simple things that would help. If you could pay the jeweler to socket an item. That would make finding upgrades easier. All the sudden a worthless chest piece can be turned into an upgrade.

And the classes are really really off. Unfortunately I have a monk and a WD. The Monk is fun but needs help and the WD is broken. I should have started a DH a while ago, but I figured we'd have 1.04 by now and that was the patch that was suppose to help the classes.

8/7/2012 8:36:20 AM

This game is not bad. It is actually quite good. It just isn't up to Blizzard or Diablo standards, and there truly are some facepalm decisions that went into the end game.

I think people have way too much of a 'WoW' mentality when dealing with these kinds of games. Its not just a grinding game, its a farming game. These aren't the same thing. Time invested in NO WAY means you will or should receive an upgrade. The entire game is a lottery and that is exactly the way these games have been and should continue to be. If you want a guaranteed payoff for time invested you're leaning towards the WoW gamestyle, not Diablo.

The AH is a way to hedge your bets on time invested vs reward. I am undecided as to if this is good or not, but the problem is 3rd party services would be performing this if Blizzard didn't so I think its just a tough spot and I can't hold it against the game; you don't have to use the AH if you don't WANT to.

I can tell you the problem(s) with this game:

1. Its short. Very short. And for a 'random' game, there is very little randomization to it. Shockingly little. Aside from the cathedral, larder, and crystal spire I can't think of any parts of the game where you don't know 100% which way to go to get to the next area. Uh what? This is Diablo; it should be 90%+ randomized every time you play.

2. Itemization is off; especially at the end game. With the presence of the AH, ilevel 61 and 62 may as well not be in the game (jewelry aside). A level 62 item should not be able to roll worse stats than a shitty level 55 item of the same rarity. Legendaries aren't even worth mentioning and Blizzard is aware; 'fix' is incoming but its still a facepalm as to how the game got released with them in their current state.

3. Inferno. It's not 100% broken; but it is broken enough that it sours the players experience in the game. I am all for the very long grind to be able to tackle content; but that is not what they have provided. There are really some boneheaded affix combos that they allowed to be in this game; Not just difficult (btw they confuse difficult with stupid and/or frustrating far too often in this game) but combinations that punish the player for playing and gearing 'correctly'. A good example I can think of since I first rolled a DH is the reflect damage affix. The entire class is about damage output yet this extremely common affix directly punishes this. I can one shot myself (with a normal weapon attack) on these mobs. How is this fun? How was this not caught in testing? These packs turn into a 'run around and watch the potion cooldown timer' mini-game. This turns a fun farming trip with friends into a game you just don't want to play.

There are other items too like loss of character control for melee as well as the absolute requirement for every piece of gear to have resist all on it (or a very high single resist for monks). It just doesn't feel like Blizzard played the end game at all or they could have easily seen these issues.

4. Enrage timers. These are completely asinine. It actually does show a lack of genre understanding by the developers; and it pains me to say that. If I can kite around a really tough pack and rotate my defensive/tactical cooldowns for 30 minutes until I finally kill them; why the fuck should that be taken out of the game? Why do they punish that skill? Why shouldn't a player be rewarded for that?

Conspiracy theorists will say that it drives people to the AH/RMAH to buy a gear check. I don't know; maybe. Either way it doesn't matter; its another instance of punishing skill/ability in the game. And don't get me started on 'unavoidable' damage. This concept is simply lazy game design.

5. Battle.net 2.0. Its pretty garbage for social interaction. Tie into this the entire UI of the game and it just needs an overhaul.

There are other smaller, nitpicky items that are probably only noticeable because this is a Blizzard title and I had such a high quality expectation from them.

I will say that they need to move some of the guys from the web team over to the development team because the D3 online character armory UI makes the in game UI look like it was developed by fucking freshman at Full Sail University.

I do want to note that this post is overly negative on the game. There are a LOT of things they did right in this game. Things that show hints that the Blizzard I knew isn't actually missing from the game. But since this post is already tl;dr ill save the praises for another day.

[Edited on August 7, 2012 at 10:43 AM. Reason : *]

8/7/2012 10:41:45 AM

Everyone has beat this topic to death, but I'll throw another facepalm decision into the mix.

Not only are most legendary items garbage, they almost never drop. In Diablo 3, I don't even think MF increases their drop rate. I've gotten a total of like 4 of these items in Diablo 3, and all dropped relatively around the same time (in two batches). Drops are just a massive blotch of yellow and blue.

In Diablo 2, uniques dropped fairly consistently and it felt great to see them. Killing a boss would result in a giant pop of green, gold, and yellow.

Also, majors fails with the naming of items. You could have a "Doom Armor" and ID it, but then there was no longer an indication that it had been a "Doom Armor". Its gone from the name. Drove me nuts when I IDed things and was trying to remember what ilvls matched up with what items.
And the fact that all legendary items use a dumb generic name irks me. All legendary and set chest pieces are "Chest Armor". There isn't a unique Doom Armor or Archon Armor.

I also miss different bosses dropping different item ranges. I've complained about this on the forums in the past, so I won't go into that again.

And Whimsyshire is no Cow Level.

[Edited on August 7, 2012 at 11:28 AM. Reason : ]

8/7/2012 11:28:17 AM

Quote :

"Its not just a grinding game, its a farming game. These aren't the same thing. Time invested in NO WAY means you will or should receive an upgrade."

And I get that. I'm not saying that just because I play for an hour I should get the best item in the game. But the ratio is so far off now that it goes beyond enjoyment. I think the real issue with items isn't on the high end but the floor when it comes to the stats. Just to often lvl 63 items stink. All lvl 63 weapons should get a damage modifier. That modifier might be garbage, but it should be there. All lvl 63 armor should roll resist. Things like that to help increase the chances what you find is useful.

Doing simple math the chances of finding a good item in act 1 or 2 is like .005%. I got better things to do with my time.

8/7/2012 12:09:43 PM

I quit. I'm done chasing the imaginary carrot. My enjoyment dropped sharply after I reached inferno. I wish I had the foresight to just quit then instead of banging my head against a wall for a whole month.

8/7/2012 1:52:54 PM

I haven't played in a month but when my wife and friends want to play I'm sure it'll be fun.

8/7/2012 2:12:51 PM

i agree with all of the above, yes the drop rates suck, as does itemization. magic find is flawed, some inferno elite packs are too damn hard, etc.

....BUT i for one am still enjoying the game, if not for pure gameplay value than for the RMAH aspect at the very least. i only play about 1 hour a day now if even, but its good enough to do a full act 2 elite run + belial. for me, the tiresome grinding/farming aspect is justified by the ability to throw items up in the AH and have that money transfer relatively quickly to my paypal.

having just made it to where i can comfortably farm a2, i find that the item level for drops has improved dramatically. sure i still get some 53/54 items but i am definitely finding more 62/63 items than in a1. i expect the same kind of improvement once i can consistently farm a3.

lastly, even though the auction house is now inflated and stagnant as hell, the moderate to high end 62/63 items are still pretty scarce imo. sold a 20$ item sunday, sold a 25$ item this morning. what other game can you go through 1 hour of gameplay to potentially "earn" a real money item you can flip right to your paypal? i can't wait for the day that i find/sell a 200-250$ item

8/7/2012 2:40:21 PM

^after a few weeks of farming, I believe I am JUST NOW getting my barbarian to the point of being able to go into ACT 2. lol. Add me, Josh#1280

8/7/2012 5:49:44 PM

I could possibly forgive the bad drop rates, horrid AH search, poor itemization, awful public games, auction sniping, 5-stack disconnects and occasional ridiculous elite combos...

but when all your deaths result from poor game mechanics and not from poor player decisions, it just saps what fun was left in farming. I'm talking about constant rubber-banding, getting shot at from off-screen, and clutch abilities not triggering reliably. Add in high repair costs, an all-but-required farming buff that takes 15+ minutes to get up to speed, and one-hit death by design (I play a DH) and you have something that slowly corrupts your soul.

8/7/2012 7:21:50 PM

I am just getting into Inferno, the repair costs are killing me.

8/7/2012 7:32:31 PM

I said it earlier and I'll say it again. Items are not the problem with diablo 3. Diablo 2 was exactly the same with item levels, and you still had just as good of a chance of getting a really shitty item as you did a really good one, thats how randomization works. There are plenty of good end game uniques and set items, its just that uniques and set items have more variety within their stats, so you still have to find one with a better roll.

The single biggest problem with Diablo 3 is the level cap. In diablo 2 while you were grinding you at least still got exp and skill points. Time actually equaled guaranteed statistical improvement (until 99, but that at least took forever). In diablo 3 there is no guarantee, so you can play a really long session and get absolutely nothing from it, or with repair costs actually lose out.

8/7/2012 8:12:15 PM

^i've heard that argument a good bit as well, and I agree. I feel the biggest problem people are having with the game is that once they reach level 60, they feel like there really is no reason to keep playing as they aren't progressing in a way that they can see on screen. This has people already frustrated...so you add in the fact that they are getting crappy items thrown their way(which is how it should be...shouldn't be constant great items) and they are just getting pissed and quitting.

8/7/2012 10:08:38 PM

I think it's more the complete lack of a social scene in the game. D2 was all about the grouping aspect. leveling with friends, group pvp, etc. There's none of that in D3.

infact ... you were punished so severely for grouping when the game first came out it killed it for most people in inferno. I said it back then as well.

The complete disincentive to group killed d3

8/8/2012 4:40:39 AM

^^I agree with you for the most part, however the drop rates on set/legendary are still too low to make it fun. I have played almost exactly 100 hours and yet to get a single one of those to drop.

8/8/2012 8:25:24 AM

Before I quit, I got 13 legendary drops, with 300 MF. Primarily ACT1/2 Inferno runs. It was fun for awhile, but I won't even log back in until PVP comes out.

8/8/2012 8:27:04 AM

The set/legendary pieces for the most part are shit anyways, those items should not be the drops people farm for.

8/8/2012 9:32:31 AM

And that is a severe problem.

8/8/2012 10:03:32 AM

Has anyone noticed that Blizz moderates the HELL out of their forums? Negative posts, even reasonable, well-mannered ones, gets promptly deleted without warning or notification. Complaints are not allowed, apparently.

I've never been one to pirate games, but the callousness and disregard for post-purchase satisfaction that Blizz has demonstrated makes me want to rob them.

[Edited on August 8, 2012 at 12:24 PM. Reason : .]

8/8/2012 12:22:52 PM

Do people actually buy crafting items (salvage) on the RMAH? I'm kind of curious. Anyone have luck selling gems/gold/crafting crap on there?

8/8/2012 1:26:47 PM

I thought people used gems to 'buy' gold now. There's a weird gulf between RMAH gold (2.50) and trade spammed gold (almost $1). I remember seeing a thread where people were complaining gems AHed less than the actual cost of producing them.

Legendaries suck and it shouldn't take them months to fix them. Really hate that they can't even pump out quick changes like that. I see a lot of threads where people hate life for never seeing an orange or green drop, but really 1/30 legendaries that drop are worth anything. You have to get the right legendary (so a fraction of the armor pieces, weapons=lul) and the roll has to be somewhat decent. Otherwise, its a 50k sale

8/8/2012 2:06:24 PM

the combinations they put on these elite packs are damn near ridiculous sometimes.

Arcane, Desecration, Frozen, Health Link should not be allowed. Nor should Teleport, Jailer, desecration, fire chain. Stuffs bonkers

8/8/2012 2:43:51 PM

I've sold very high end gems on the RMAH. I doubt the other crafting items sell on it, maybe brimstone.

I sold an amulet for $15 today.

Apparently gold isn't selling on the RMAH right now, but there must be some sort of price floor set by Blizzard because it won't seem to go below $2.80. You can buy elsewhere for almost $1 per mil.

8/8/2012 3:57:18 PM

^^ For me desecration still feels broken, how does 1000+ resist not slow down the damage whatsoever? Same goes for fire chains.

8/9/2012 12:03:25 PM

^I agree. Hell, I only have 6-700 resists and I can stand in plague and whack away with a little LOH and be just fine. However, if desecration comes along I run like a scared cat.

8/9/2012 12:04:41 PM

I do the wizard crit mass build. 8500 armor / 1000 resists buffed. Can stand in 1-2 Descecration pits if I have 3+ enemies around me. Same with 1, maybe 2 Arcane beams as long as there's a couple seconds between them.

Fire chains and 2 stacks of Molten kill me almost instantly.

Going from 800-1k made an absurd difference with descecration, plagued, and sort of mortar.

8/9/2012 1:36:29 PM

Quote :

" Players and Friends, Even when you are in the business of fun, not every week ends up being fun. This week, our security team found an unauthorized and illegal access into our internal network here at Blizzard. We quickly took steps to close off this access and began working with law enforcement and security experts to investigate what happened. At this time, we’ve found no evidence that financial information such as credit cards, billing addresses, or real names were compromised. Our investigation is ongoing, but so far nothing suggests that these pieces of information have been accessed. Some data was illegally accessed, including a list of email addresses for global Battle.net users, outside of China. For players on North American servers (which generally includes players from North America, Latin America, Australia, New Zealand, and Southeast Asia) the answer to the personal security question, and information relating to Mobile and Dial-In Authenticators were also accessed. Based on what we currently know, this information alone is NOT enough for anyone to gain access to Battle.net accounts. We also know that cryptographically scrambled versions of Battle.net passwords (not actual passwords) for players on North American servers were taken. We use Secure Remote Password protocol (SRP) to protect these passwords, which is designed to make it extremely difficult to extract the actual password, and also means that each password would have to be deciphered individually. As a precaution, however, we recommend that players on North American servers change their password. Please click this link to change your password. Moreover, if you have used the same or similar passwords for other purposes, you may want to consider changing those passwords as well. In the coming days, we'll be prompting players on North American servers to change their secret questions and answers through an automated process. Additionally, we'll prompt mobile authenticator users to update their authenticator software. As a reminder, phishing emails will ask you for password or login information. Blizzard Entertainment emails will never ask for your password. We deeply regret the inconvenience to all of you and understand you may have questions. Please find additional information here. We take the security of your personal information very seriously, and we are truly sorry that this has happened. Sincerely, Mike Morhaime "

http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/securityupdate.html

8/9/2012 9:29:50 PM

Jesus as if this game wasn't bad enough now it's potentially compromising my personal information.

8/9/2012 9:50:00 PM

well, after that bit of news, i guess i'll come out and say it:

this game sucks

8/9/2012 11:16:00 PM

Come on guys, lets keep the retarded Blizzard forum poster syndrome out of here.

This shit has nothing to do with the quality of the game; though it does have to do with Blizzard quality.

Not to mention this probably happened a WHILE ago and they are now finding out about it.

[Edited on August 10, 2012 at 9:47 AM. Reason : *]

8/10/2012 9:45:41 AM

Quote :

"Not to mention this probably happened a WHILE ago and they are now finding out about it."

[Edited on August 10, 2012 at 9:54 AM. Reason : /]

8/10/2012 9:54:25 AM

Lokken, the only one keeping the Diablo 3 faith.

So, given blizzard's track record for making everything take a backseat in their quest for the almighty dollar I'll start the conspiracy theory. They sold 6 million e-mail addresses to a spammer then came up with the security breach story.

8/10/2012 9:59:26 AM

Thats why drop rates are so low. If people could actually get the drops they need then how would blizzzard make any money off the RMAH. I was convinced it would ruin this game and it appears right. I bought the game but I never even finished act 1 in normal. For some reason i just didn't get the same bug as I have from other blizzzard games.

8/10/2012 8:06:12 PM

i agree that bringing real money into the game ruined it, with the added bonus of hackers being exponentially more interested in busting it open.

now everything has to revolve around money, too. i wanted to give blizz the benefit of the doubt about not making it 100% about that, but it's too obvious. i mean, not being able to even create and name games? cutting the level off before you can even start the final difficulty, all while tying your output and overall success completely to your gear? hell, the only thing that sets you apart is gear!

no class customization, no randomness, no social aspect at all. i used to think it was so pimp in diablo 2 how when you entered the chat it showed everyone's toon at the bottom. why not include the vintage awesomeness like that?

the only thing left to focus on was the loot, and they fucked that up. don't get me wrong, i was all over this thread in anticipation of this game, but they just got it really wrong. it needs a major, major overhaul.

8/10/2012 8:20:29 PM

Bringing money into the game made all the bots, hacks, and exploits that much more damaging.

I am curious to see how easy the game is as a DH, so I'm currently boting one up to level 60. Care less if I get banned. If goes well I might start botting more just to make a few$$ while sleeping.

8/10/2012 9:04:17 PM

Quote :

"i agree that bringing real money into the game ruined it,"

real money has been in every game ... blizz just got tired of it and made money off of it.

lets not pretend no one spent money on d2 or wow.

8/11/2012 4:27:25 AM

The problem is they made real money the focus of the game. With D2 you started out with a good game and an auction house developed organically due to the game's popularity. With D3 they started with an auction house and designed a game to funnel people towards it.

8/11/2012 6:34:21 AM

They should just make a real money auction house for hardcore mode that would be more fun.

8/11/2012 12:59:08 PM

Quote :

"The problem is they made real money the focus of the game. "

Which explains why the RMAH was released weeks (over a month?) after release, its not available to HC, they restricted what you could sell on there for a while, you are required to have an authenticator to use it, and you can get permabanned from it.

Stop being dumb. The RMAH is not making the experience any better for me, but its far from the focus of the game. The gulf between the mid-tier gamers and high-tier gamers is large. The high tier players (and dumb people who pay for items) will always live in a separate market. It was like this in Diablo 2 as well. You know why you didn't bitch back then? Its because they were selling on 3rd party sites so you _couldn't_ see it.

Now you can see it. You see items you want and can't afford because, frankly, they are playing a different game from you. Its the exact same as Diablo 2. [dealwithit]

[Edited on August 11, 2012 at 6:05 PM. Reason : ]

8/11/2012 5:47:01 PM

^ i agree with all of that

8/11/2012 5:50:17 PM

^^Except they control both the drop rates and the RMAH this go round. What was their incentive to only have crappy drops when someone else is making the money in an auction house? What is there incentive in having mostly crappy drops when they get the cash from an auction house?

It's nice that the RMAH lagged behind a bit but the game was designed around making it a key part of the game.

[Edited on August 11, 2012 at 6:35 PM. Reason : -]

8/11/2012 6:33:13 PM

This is just the feeling I get from the changes from beta till now... But I don't feel like the game was designed around the rmah at first. I think the intent was to remove the "black market" that existed and was probably a headache for blizzard with scam sites and people stealing accounts etc. so they do the RMAH to make a few $$ and regulate things.

Then I think as the game got rolling and they killed it in sales and saw how the gold AH was doing they started to see really big $$ with the RMAH. So the game shifts to focus around that more than it originally seemed intended during beta and when they were initially telling people the vision of the game.

Just the feeling I get. I'd almost guess the game designers are frustrated by higher ups telling them to make changes to push the RMAH. With WoW seeming on the decline they need to replace some of that revenue stream.

8/11/2012 8:26:40 PM

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/6923456/104_Systems_Preview-8_10_2012

Too much to copy/paste.

8/11/2012 8:45:30 PM

well...sounds like in general they are making the game easier. Makes me a little happy and a little sad. Invulnerable minions are gone, enrage timers/healing for elites is gone...bringing down the hardness of elites. Fixing legendaries making them more "legendary". I like a good bit of the stuff

8/12/2012 5:44:09 PM

I doesn't' make me sad at all. I have not played in a few weeks now, and will definitely play once this patch is out.

8/12/2012 5:51:55 PM

More facepalm decisions in that again. I really do question what the fuck their process is over there because it doesn't work very well.

8/12/2012 6:15:41 PM

Just got D3. I was excited, until I read this page.

I enjoyed D2 a ton. I hope to have as much fun, if not more, with D3.

8/12/2012 7:38:26 PM

Done botting to lvl 60. That was easy enough, should have been doing that all along.

8/13/2012 4:51:29 PM