people keep on talking about losing costner, fells and mccauley.

isn't costner a junior?

12/23/2008 1:20:36 PM

It's been said many times that Costner will graduate and has little plans for coming back.

12/23/2008 1:24:49 PM

by whom?

12/23/2008 1:26:35 PM

Quote :

"lets play our best 5 players 40 minutes per game, that will work out well for us"

Nobody is suggesting that... but somewhere in the middle would make a little more sense to me.

12/23/2008 1:26:55 PM

Not according to Costner he says he doesn't know

12/23/2008 1:27:20 PM

This thread is so freakin' pointless...

We can debate Lowe's coaching ability all we want, but the bottom line is that, at least in the short term, NC State's best option is to give him a chance to pan out. Yes, anyone with half a brain can see that State is much worse now than it was 3 years ago under Sendek. Yes, there are certainly some red flags that have State fans concerned. And yes, as usual, all that is sparking a very belligerent, yet remarkably trivial debate.

I think three very critical things are getting overlooked:

1) Sendek was NOT fired. It makes ZERO sense to talk about Sendek like he was forced out in favor of Lowe. True, the administration could have tried harder to keep Herb, but he wanted to leave (and who could blame him?) and a huge portion of the fanbase wanted him gone anyway.

In short, given the situation at hand, Lowe was the best option State could find to coach its team.

2) Remember our last coaching search - I do, and I wish I didn't. It was embarrassing, partially b/c of Fowler n' company's ineptitude, but mostly b/c of the coaching situation itself. State's head coach position in bball is a very tough job to take. You've got two top 10 programs in your backyard, a very tough confernece to play in, and a fanbase that (obviously) has little tolerance for "losing" (which can mean anything depending on how they choose to define it). There's a reason big name coaches turned us down.

So, for all of you calling for Lowe's head, or who are calling for it if "A, B, and C don't happen," please feel free to explain to all of us who YOU think should be running our program. B/c all of you are getting too wrapped up in "why you hate Lowe" and not in "what options are on the table."

3) Lowe was NOT a proven college head coach - None of us should have expected Lowe to turn the program around immediately. He was previously a head coach in the pros and was/is very knowledgeable about the game. Most people expected Lowe to have a learning curve. And let's face it: the ACC is a tough classroom. However, it seems like everyone promptly forgot this after State's late-season run in 06-07.

Now don't get me wrong. Lowe has made mistakes, and to me two in particular stand out. First, he whiffed on recruiting ACC calibur PGs and/or underestimated the importance of PG play. Second, he failed to maintain team chemistry when he brought in JJ Hickson. Considering how fierce the competition is for recruiting elite PGs, and Lowe's relative inexperience dealing with college kids on scholarship (instead of professional athletes getting paid), I honestly think these mistakes are actually pretty damn understandable, if not acceptable.

Now, the rest of you can continue to bitch and whine all you like. I'm a State fan. I know that's unfortunately how we roll. But for pete sake can at least some of you realize how incredibly useless it is to continue this "Sidney Lowe Credibility" watch? Is there anyone in this thread capable of recognizing our situation for what it is? B/c this is reality, pure and simple:

1) Sidney Lowe is our coach.
2) We knew he was going to take time to pan out.
3) We acknowledge that he's made some mistakes.
4) We accept that these mistakes are part of the learning process.
5) We know it will be difficult it bring in a high-calibur, proven head coach, which would be the only good reason to fire Lowe at this point.
6) We understand that our best option is to let Lowe work through his mistakes.
7) We hope that, like Coach K, Lowe will turn the program around in ~4 years.


Now... all of you... especially the pathetic whiners out there that are putting even Tar Heel fans to shame...


Shut the fuck up.


[/thread]

12/23/2008 1:54:11 PM

Quote :

"even if State gets Wall and Favors, they likely won't be better next year than this year."

that's just crazytalk.

Quote :

"We had been to 5 straight NCAAs before Lowe, he wasn't starting over."

when you look at what was left though, it's pretty close. i guess you could fault him for not keeping guys who wanted out of their LOIs before the new coach was even announced, but i'm not going to.

12/23/2008 2:20:36 PM

Quote :

"The Coach K and Herb comparisons to their first 3 years are not relevant at all. Duke and NCSU were not great programs before they took over. We had been to 5 straight NCAAs before Lowe, he wasn't starting over."

Didn't read a whole lot of the thread since my last post, but this isn't true. Duke was a really good program in the mid to late 70's. Actually made a Final Four one or two years before K was hired.

Sendek would have probably sucked your dick for 3 Top 100 recruits that were rising sophomores like Fells, Costner and McCauley when he took over though... so that comparison isn't relevant.

Quote :

"1) Sidney Lowe is our coach. 2) We knew he was going to take time to pan out. 3) We acknowledge that he's made some mistakes. 4) We accept that these mistakes are part of the learning process. 5) We know it will be difficult it bring in a high-calibur, proven head coach, which would be the only good reason to fire Lowe at this point. 6) We understand that our best option is to let Lowe work through his mistakes. 7) We hope that, like Coach K, Lowe will turn the program around in ~4 years."

1) true
2) true, but regression isn't that good
3) agreed
4) why has he regressed if he is learning?
5) very, very true
6) we HOPE. not understand.
7) coach K is one in a billion... will never happen. at this point i'm hoping for a few ncaat every 5 years. anything more is gravy given the way its started

[Edited on December 23, 2008 at 2:33 PM. Reason : x]

12/23/2008 2:28:23 PM

I'm more critical of Sid than most on here. But I'm also realistic (I know...why am I on TWW with that attitude...) We've lost to 2 top 25 teams in the last seconds. We could have won both but we haven't lost to anyone we should have beaten. I'm willing to wait till ACC gets underway before I start bashing Sid again. I think we're actually playing better that expected at this point.

If we win 8 ACC games I'll be

12/23/2008 3:26:18 PM

Why was it so much easier for our football team to bring in a winning head coach than our basketball team?

Seems to me that coaches care more about money than people are putting on. Sure, there's no way in hell that we beat out Texas in $$, but there are probably any number of proven or up and coming mid major or basketball only coaches that we could have gotten by outbidding their schools.

[Edited on December 23, 2008 at 3:30 PM. Reason : ]

12/23/2008 3:29:39 PM

holy shit wtf is this???


are state fans maturing? unbelievable

12/23/2008 3:31:08 PM

Quote :

"7) coach K is one in a billion... will never happen. at this point i'm hoping for a few ncaat every 5 years. anything more is gravy given the way its started"

CALL ME CRAZY, but i honestly and truly believe that sidney lowe can be a great coach if you fucks will hold back from lynching him after a few bad seasons.

Quote :

"Sure, there's no way in hell that we beat out Texas in $$, but there are probably any number of proven or up and coming mid major or basketball only coaches that we could have gotten by outbidding their schools."

that is wholly the fault of lee fowler. he made no effort to get an "upandcoming" so to speak, went straight for big name after big name until he was out of big names.

[Edited on December 23, 2008 at 4:47 PM. Reason : i <3 sidney lowe, but god damn did that coaching search get botched.]

12/23/2008 4:46:12 PM

how dare sid beat UNC in his first season and give you retards premature lofty expectations

12/23/2008 4:48:18 PM

Les Robinson beat UNC all the time...never got lofty expectations from him.

Quote :

"CALL ME CRAZY, but i honestly and truly believe that sidney lowe can be a great coach if you fucks will hold back from lynching him after a few bad seasons."

Sounds familiar.

[Edited on December 23, 2008 at 5:27 PM. Reason : .]

12/23/2008 5:26:35 PM

Quote :

"Why was it so much easier for our football team to bring in a winning head coach than our basketball team?"

too much pressure and competition in the area

12/23/2008 5:50:40 PM

Quote :

"Sounds familiar."

not from me it doesn't.

12/23/2008 5:57:43 PM

^And your opinion on coaching makes me feel so much better.

I haven't felt good about the Lowe coaching hire since Day 1. He didn't do shit in the NBA. I don't care if he didn't have any talent when he was head coaching...he still didn't do anything with them. Mike Dantoni is on pace to make the playoffs in the East with one of the worst rosters in the league...and only 7-man roster at that. And the Pistons were a good team before and after Sidney was there. His success there means nothing to me.

I would have rather us had Whittenberg...he's at least somewhat proven as a head coach on some level.

Sidney gave me a slight glimmer of hope with our ACC tourney run (although Costner pretty much carried us that whole tourney...went absolute nuts). But other than that...I haven't seen ANYTHING that gives me any hope whatsoever of him being a good coach.

Please God I hope that I'm wrong...because I know it will be difficult to get a good coach in here...but maybe we can get a good young coach who wants to prove himself somewhere. I'm just worried about how far our program can fall with Sidney at the wheel.

12/23/2008 6:19:07 PM

you mean Whittenberg, coach of the 1-7 Fordham College Rams??


Could you imagine if we started the season like that, you mother fuckers would be jumping off I-40 bridges left and right.


He would have been a REALLY GOOD HIRE

[Edited on December 23, 2008 at 6:43 PM. Reason : .]

12/23/2008 6:43:04 PM

^At the time, yeah...he was doing a little better back then. If Sidney hadn't been an alumni...he wouldn't have even gotten a sniff.

And that hire probably would have looked just as good as the Sidney hire is right now...and especially next year when McCauley, Fells, and Costner are gone.

12/23/2008 7:03:23 PM

Quote :

"^At the time, yeah...he was doing a little better back then. If Sidney hadn't been an alumni...he wouldn't have even gotten a sniff. And that hire probably would have looked just as good as the Sidney hire is right now...and especially next year when McCauley, Fells, and Costner are gone."

how can you, in the same breath, say you'd rather have whittenberg as our coach - although he'd be at the same place as sid now - and that you think sid is terrible and should be fired. you're retarded.

[Edited on December 23, 2008 at 7:08 PM. Reason : e]

12/23/2008 7:08:21 PM

^I said I thought AT THE TIME. The reading comprehension skills on this site are fucking horrible.

We got about as unproven a coach as you could get. Sidney Lowe has shown nothing as a head coach anywhere. AT THE TIME (read that again this time guys) I thought at least Whittenberg would have been a better hire because he had at least shown he could succeed at some level as a head coach.

Blame it on Fowler if you want....but we should have/could have done better than Lowe. Shit...I would have rather had Towe as a coach. I think we grabbed a former alumni "star" who had been in "the league" and had a little charisma....and just prayed that it would work. And so far it isn't working and I don't know how you can have any belief that it will work (other than just blind hope that it will...which is all I have left now).

12/23/2008 7:21:41 PM

i guess i misread your previous post (5 posts up). i was under the impression you thought whittenberg would be a better coach NOW and then you contradicted yourself. my mistake.

EDIT: i still think it's a lame argument since you obviously have no faith in either one.

[Edited on December 23, 2008 at 7:29 PM. Reason : ]

12/23/2008 7:28:03 PM

Why should I have faith??

I've been a State fan too long...I'm tired of having blind faith. There has been no reason to have faith in Sidney Lowe given his experience/track record. I'm giving him a chance...but he's not doing much with it. I don't think he should be fired now because I think it makes us look bad...but I am worried about the damage he could possibly do to our program.

12/23/2008 7:31:50 PM

hey what are we gonna do next year when McCauley, Fells, and Costner are gone?
hey what are we gonna do next year when McCauley, Fells, and Costner are gone?
hey what are we gonna do next year when McCauley, Fells, and Costner are gone?

12/23/2008 7:41:10 PM

The same thing we do every year?

12/23/2008 10:38:10 PM

Coach K's first years at Duke:

82-83 Duke 11 17 0.393
81-82 Duke 10 17 0.37
80-81 Duke 17 13 0.567

Dean Smith at UNC:

65-66 North Carolina 16 11 0.593
64-65 North Carolina 15 9 0.625
63-64 North Carolina 12 12 0.5
62-63 North Carolina 15 6 0.714
61-62 North Carolina 8 9 0.471

it takes time to build a team. i think lowe's ability as a coach is better than our team's talent. all of you need to shut up...give the guy some time. why don't you show an alumnus some class and support. we gave amato plenty of time to show us if he could coach, and the problem was taken care of.

12/23/2008 10:50:13 PM

Lowe is our coach, for better or worse. I'd say there's nearly a 100% chance he's not going anywhere after this year, unless we happen to win only 2-3 conference games. As a fan base, we can't afford to make the same mistakes we did with Sendeck (basically running him out of town) with Lowe unless we are sure we have a top notch, proven coach to replace him. Fowler is the person we really need to be blaming for all this shit anyway.

[Edited on December 23, 2008 at 10:51 PM. Reason : ']

12/23/2008 10:50:18 PM

Quote :

"Blame it on Fowler if you want....but we should have/could have done better than Lowe"

sheesh, the guy tried like four coaches before lowe, what do you expect

12/23/2008 11:30:57 PM

Quote :

"all of you need to shut up...give the guy some time."

How about you find some coaches that were given time after we were....ummmmm......born. Maybe some coaches that had 1/2 the success of K and Dean after the first 3 years.

But I do feel like many here feel... Sendek remaining for five years with no real results set an ugly precedent for the program.


[Edited on December 24, 2008 at 12:11 AM. Reason : d]

12/23/2008 11:59:02 PM

Quote :

"sheesh, the guy tried like four coaches before lowe, what do you expect"

There are 117 (shit...maybe more now...I have no idea) Division I programs. He tried 4 coaches and then went to a guy who has never coached a college game...shit, never been an assistant coach for a college game...who has failed miserably as an NBA head coach...and who was an assistant coach for a couple years on a consistently strong NBA team.

I expected a little better actually.

12/24/2008 12:12:41 AM

I wouldn't say he failed miserably as a head coach in the NBA, considering he coached the fucking Grizzlies...and still has one of their best records as a head coach...

12/24/2008 1:38:08 AM

^^There are 340 Division I teams in basketball....119 in football.

I agree with everything jbrick83 says though. Lowe was a bad hire and he has not shown any promise.

Quote :

"i think lowe's ability as a coach is better than our team's talent. "

Seriously? Stop using the fucking talent excuse. Herb was going to the NIT with Jeremy Hyatt as his star fucking player. How highly recruited were Hyatt, Benjamin, Strong, Harrison, and Gainey? Talent is not lacking. Costner, McCauley, Fells, and Smith would start for 90% of college teams.

12/24/2008 1:54:47 AM

^true, but none of our guards would ever see the court...

12/24/2008 4:29:57 AM

we have the worst fanbase, its embarrassing really

12/24/2008 7:45:59 AM

as annoying as this thread is, we are far from the worst fanbase.

12/24/2008 7:47:22 AM

well I cant think of any right now, but even if I could, we wouldnt drop out of the top 10

12/24/2008 7:50:54 AM

how about kentucky, who did the same thing to tubby smith that we did to herb, except that tubby smith's worst season at UK was 22-13 with a national title, three elite 8s, two sweet 16s and in 10 years failed to win either the conference regular season or conference tournament only three times?

how about auburn, who fired tommy tuberville after a single poor season?

how about tennessee, who fired phil fulmer in the middle of a season after he went 10-4 and won his division the previous year, and was also a national title winning coach who happens to live and die for the university of tennessee?

how about miami, who fired larry coker after he went 12-0, 12-1, 11-2, 9-3, 9-3, 7-6, and of course won a national title?

you're crazy if you think we're the worst there is. this is all not to mention that last year we were #16 in the country in basketball attendence when our team was terrible.

12/24/2008 8:05:25 AM

The worst fan bases are not the ones that want better than mediocrity. They want to see progress. It's not that the fanbase is "bad", the fan base is extremely passionate.

I was at UCLA during Lavin's last year when he went 10-19. He was ran out before that season ever started, even after his accomplishments below.

Six consecutive NCAA Tournaments (1997-2002)
1997 NCAA Elite 8
Five NCAA Sweet 16s in six seasons
1998 Final Four
2001 Pacific-10 Coach of the Year honors
Ranked #1 in 3 different years

Then the Bruins picked up Ben Howland. It has turned out to be a pretty decent hire, some would say.
And I know there were a lot of you who wanted Lavin and were drooling at the thought of him coming to State. I still cringe when I think about that.


[Edited on December 24, 2008 at 8:36 AM. Reason : ,]

12/24/2008 8:33:15 AM

Quote :

"Maybe some coaches that had 1/2 the success of K and Dean after the first 3 years. "

Ummm Dean was hung in effigy after his 4th season. And K was 38-47 his first 3 years.

12/24/2008 9:06:29 AM

this is another one of those threads, where if you didn't know anything about records, you would think we were 2-7 and not 7-2, because our fans are a bunch of fucking faggots who think they're entitled to everything and that anything short of undefeated seasons and national titles are failures...you guys make me lol with your prognostications

12/24/2008 10:09:03 AM

Quit throwing that fucking record around. Who the fuck have we beaten?? ECU?? Throw the record around halfway into the ACC season...not 9 games into the season when we've lost to both decent teams we've played. Fuck.

12/24/2008 10:17:45 AM

Quote :

"how about kentucky, who did the same thing to tubby smith that we did to herb, except that tubby smith's worst season at UK was 22-13 with a national title, three elite 8s, two sweet 16s and in 10 years failed to win either the conference regular season or conference tournament only three times? how about auburn, who fired tommy tuberville after a single poor season? how about tennessee, who fired phil fulmer in the middle of a season after he went 10-4 and won his division the previous year, and was also a national title winning coach who happens to live and die for the university of tennessee? how about miami, who fired larry coker after he went 12-0, 12-1, 11-2, 9-3, 9-3, 7-6, and of course won a national title? you're crazy if you think we're the worst there is. this is all not to mention that last year we were #16 in the country in basketball attendence when our team was terrible."

see, all of those schools only called for the heads of the coach of one sport, we run our basketball and football coaches out of town

and I was being facetious, I know that we have some good fans to go along with the bad ones. It just seems like we have this huge sense of entitlement here, we havent been very good in a long long time, yet we feel that year in and year out we need to be competing for a ACC championship or the season and coach is a failure

12/24/2008 10:25:53 AM

what about ice cream?

12/24/2008 10:26:21 AM

Quote :

"we run our basketball and football coaches out of town "

You think we ran Amato out of town?? I mean...we definitely ran Sendek out...but Amato??

12/24/2008 10:31:05 AM

^^^
Kentucky Football = Fans haven't cared until recently
Auburn Basketball = Fans don't care
Tenn. Basketball = We care now after 75 years
Miami Basketball = ASU Basketball

^I think it had more to do with going 15 and goddamn 20 in 3 years with a loss to the goddamn Zips.

[Edited on December 24, 2008 at 10:34 AM. Reason : d]

12/24/2008 10:32:11 AM

chuck amato would've been fired anywhere, and that's just fact.

12/24/2008 11:01:11 AM

I really wish we had ended up with someone like Kelvin Sampson. It sure didn't take him long to build a "national contender" of course that didn't end up so well did it? Face it guys right now we are the 4th best team in the state and as such we can't build a team overnight. We need incremental improvements last year sucked but landing hickson in the NBA and getting all his positive statements about Lowe has probably done wonders for our recruiting. Just calm the fuck down. We will be a much better team this year than last year and that is all I want to see right now.

12/24/2008 11:25:42 AM

Quote :

"Face it guys right now we are the 4th 5th best team in the state"

12/24/2008 11:29:38 AM

^ Oh yeah davidson. I don't really count them because hopefully they will only last as long as curry.

12/24/2008 12:04:14 PM

Quote :

"Throw the record around halfway into the ACC season"

well save your "Lowe is a failure" shit until then too, not after we start 7-2 because 2 star players hit some amazing late game shots

i think some of you guys think it should be easy to bring in a coach, into UNC's and Duke's backyard, and have success within a couple years...thats laughable that you think that way...what should Lowe have already been able to do that would show sufficient promise?

12/24/2008 12:05:49 PM