[NO], that does not start a fight.

not necessarily, i should say. if by "following him", we're talking about up in his face harassing him, then that's one thing. If he was just following someone he didn't know around his neighborhood and keeping an eye on him, well that's not how a fight is started.

[Edited on April 12, 2012 at 11:19 PM. Reason : ]

4/12/2012 11:16:16 PM

Quote :

"1. a grown man should know how to handle a kid without killing them. "

Lets replace "kid" with:

6'2" 150ish pound "person"


No way Zimmerman is the 240lbs as first reported. He had obviously lost a lot of weight since the 5yrs since that mug shot and his stats were taken.


He looks to be around 200lbs now.

So a 5'9" 200lb guy vs a 6'2" 150lb guy is hardly the "OMG mismatched fight" some of you are attempting to make this out to be.


If Trayvon was a 5' 100lb 10 year old kid, I could understand the outrage.

[Edited on April 12, 2012 at 11:17 PM. Reason : .]

4/12/2012 11:16:35 PM

Who gives a fuck if Z held a physical advantage, anyway?

What matters is how the fight got started.

4/12/2012 11:18:16 PM

I think more matters than how it got started.

What if it is Trayvon screaming for help on the 911 call, as the prosecutors and "voice analysis experts" claim?

Then would it even matter if Trayvon swung first? Seems like Z would still be guilty in this scenario too, which is what the prosecutors might be banking on.

[Edited on April 12, 2012 at 11:22 PM. Reason : ]

4/12/2012 11:21:42 PM

Because it is impossible for someone with lessor physical stats to ever win a fight over someone bigger than them.

If this were the case, I'd be fucking rich right now because I'd always know who to bet on in a boxing or MMA fight.

4/12/2012 11:21:59 PM

^^^^i wasnt talking about physical proportions. i was talking about an adult having common sense and knowing how to deal with a kid in a non-physical manner.

[Edited on April 12, 2012 at 11:22 PM. Reason : .]

4/12/2012 11:22:09 PM

^^^You mean, say, Martin started the fight, but Zimmerman beats his ass thoroughly, then effectively executes him once he's got him good and thoroughly beaten?

...and while I think it's important, who "swung first" isn't the end-all, either, at least in my mind.

^ I mean, I think that's true...up until the point that it becomes a physical/legitimately threatening altercation. People do dumb things...teenagers are especially prone. If Martin overreacted and attacked him, his adult ability to handle the situation better is pretty much out the window at that point.

[Edited on April 12, 2012 at 11:27 PM. Reason : and come on, 17 is no fucking kid. ]

4/12/2012 11:23:37 PM

^ i'm saying if martin tackled zimmerman, and had him pinned down etc when Z pulled a gun, and was yelling for help (for a good minute at least) before Z shot him.

[Edited on April 12, 2012 at 11:25 PM. Reason : ]

4/12/2012 11:25:02 PM

That's a tough one.

I mean, obviously I would say that Z shouldn't shoot him in that scenario, if that's ALL M was doing...

but neither would I call it implausible that Z could feel legitimately threatened in such a scenario and legitimately feel justified from his vantage point in shooting in self-defense.

Make sense? I'm saying that in that scenario, generally speaking, I'd say that he shouldn't shoot, but it would be a tough call to label him a criminal if he did.

[Edited on April 12, 2012 at 11:30 PM. Reason : and 2nd-degree murder? No way in hell.]

4/12/2012 11:27:50 PM

Quote :

"According to a booking sheet, Zimmerman weighs 185 pounds and is 5 foot 8 inches tall. Tattoos include theatrical masks and a cross on the chest. He is listed as being unemployed."

wannabe actor??

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/12/justice/florida-zimmerman-jail/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

4/12/2012 11:29:30 PM

Quote :

"^ i'm saying if martin tackled zimmerman, and had him pinned down etc when Z pulled a gun, and was yelling for help (for a good minute at least) before Z shot him."

So we are to think that Zimmerman just had him at gun point for a good minute then decided to shoot him?

If thats the scenario, I'd say its more likely that it was Zimmerman yelling for help.

He finally gets the situation under control, has Trayvon fended off him, has him at gun point and is yelling for help while he is subduing the suspect, then Trayvon goes for his gun, and Zimmerman shoots him.

Again, these are possible scenarios that the defense could use.

Quote :

"According to a booking sheet, Zimmerman weighs 185 pounds and is 5 foot 8 inches tall. Tattoos include theatrical masks and a cross on the chest. He is listed as being unemployed."

Yet nobody is mentioning the tattoos that Trayvon the little innocent angel had.

Not that that justifies getting shot or implies guilt.

But the one sidedness portrayals by the media in this case are one reason this shit has blown up like it has.

[Edited on April 12, 2012 at 11:33 PM. Reason : .]

4/12/2012 11:31:03 PM

Quote :

"He finally gets the situation under control"

What situation?

The one Zimmerman created by chasing someone who was running from him?

4/12/2012 11:33:05 PM

The altercation that was occuring between Zimmerman and Trayvon.

Just following someone is not the "start of the altercation" LEGALLY.

4/12/2012 11:33:58 PM

The situation moved from following to chasing when Martin ran and Zimmerman got out of his car.

...even completely ignoring the fact that fact that following someone is significantly more suspicious than walking down the street looking at houses.

4/12/2012 11:35:52 PM

I think that is to be debated?

Following? Perhaps not.

Getting out of your car and chasing someone down? I could see that as an escalation.

Confrontation? I could see that as provoking someone... especially if that someone had done nothing wrong.




that's what I think this is going to come down to in the court room.



Couple this all with the fact that Zimmerman KNOWS that he's armed, and is supposed to NOT escalate a situation.

[Edited on April 12, 2012 at 11:37 PM. Reason : d]

4/12/2012 11:36:23 PM

^exactly!

4/12/2012 11:37:23 PM

Quote :

"Following? Perhaps not. Getting out of your car and chasing someone down? I could see that as an escalation."

Right, depends on what sort of following/chasing we're talking about.

4/12/2012 11:38:27 PM

If someone makes an obvious effort to get away from you and you continue to follow, is that an escalation?

4/12/2012 11:40:59 PM

depends

4/12/2012 11:41:34 PM

...on?

4/12/2012 11:41:57 PM

trayvon was just likely standing his ground...

4/12/2012 11:44:36 PM

Quote :

"That's a tough one. I mean, obviously I would say that Z shouldn't shoot him in that scenario, if that's ALL M was doing... but neither would I call it implausible that Z could feel legitimately threatened in such a scenario and legitimately feel justified from his vantage point in shooting in self-defense. Make sense? I'm saying that in that scenario, generally speaking, I'd say that he shouldn't shoot, but it would be a tough call to label him a criminal if he did. "

I don't think i see this.

If someone that is unarmed is yelling for help in an altercation against someone that is armed, and they get shot anyway, I can't see how self-defense would apply generally speaking.

People who are carrying guns, or any weapons really, should be held to a higher standard of restraint than someone that's unarmed.

In my mind too, the motivation is a big factor.

Let's say the circumstances were changed a little, to where both Martin and Z were walking home, and Martin wrongly profiled Z as a criminal and thought he was following him to rob him. Then Martin tackled Z, realized he had a gun, then started yelling for him and Z shot him. In this hypothetical situation, I would definitely say it was self defense regardless of the screaming, because it would have been Martin that had the aggressive posture/mindset/prejudice first, and Z had no way to gauge his motivations.

But since it was Z that had the aggressive posture first, the onus i think is on him to take responsibility for his own thoughts and actions, which unfortunately were mistaken. But making a mistake for whatever reason doesn't mean he didn't commit the crime.

I would almost say our differences of opinion boil down to you not generally being concerned with motivations, but instead looking at the rote actions in a vacuum.

I would argue that a legal system designed to moderate human interactions would be broken if it didn't consider motivations, an idea further supported by the fact that we use judges and juries to weigh cases.

4/12/2012 11:45:01 PM

^^^he walks/runs away, you continue to follow in order to continue keeping an eye on him? I wouldn't call that escalation (unless you follow him onto his property or something).

he walks/runs away, you go sprinting after him, chasing him down...that could definitely be escalation.

^

Quote :

"Let's say the circumstances were changed a little, to where both Martin and Z were walking home, and Martin wrongly profiled Z as a criminal and thought he was following him to rob him. Then Martin tackled Z, realized he had a gun, then started yelling for him and Z shot him. In this hypothetical situation, I would definitely say it was self defense regardless of the screaming, because it would have been Martin that had the aggressive posture/mindset/prejudice first, and Z had no way to gauge his motivations."

that's kind of what I'm saying could be what happened, which is why I'm saying it's a tough call to label Z a criminal in a scenario like that.

[Edited on April 12, 2012 at 11:49 PM. Reason : and in any case, not a murderer.]

4/12/2012 11:45:17 PM

Quote :

"I think that is to be debated? Following? Perhaps not. Getting out of your car and chasing someone down? I could see that as an escalation. Confrontation? I could see that as provoking someone... especially if that someone had done nothing wrong. that's what I think this is going to come down to in the court room."

I totally agree.

There is a difference in chasing and following. Considering that in the call Zimmerman says he has no clue where he is, it's hard to classify it as chasing when you don't even know where the person is it could be argued.

And based on Zimmerman's claims in the call, it seems he was just following the kid in order to let the cops know where he went, which is following for the purpose of gathering information which is not illegal.

There has to be some evidence that we don't know about for the prosecution to say that Zimmerman started the altercation.

That is basically the basis of their case.

Which as of now, there is no evidence to show who actually started the fight.

Some of you might think that following him started the fight, but legally thats not the case, so stop trying to argue that.

I agree, personally, thats what might have led to the altercation, but that doesn't matter legally.

One can say that had Zimmerman not followed Trayvon, none of this would have happened.

And one could say had Trayvon not ran, none of this would have happened.

Neither running, or following in this case are illegal, so legally as far as the fight is concerned, they do not matter.


If Trayvon had just kept walking home, or stopped and asked Zimmerman what was up initially, this could have also been avoided.

While I don't consider Zimmerman some model citizen, I seriously doubt he would have just tackled or shot the kid if he Trayvon had just been "Just walking home from the store from getting some snack, I'm visiting my dad from Miami for the week"

Zimmerman would have seen the tea and skittles and probably just let it go.

Yet Trayvon, already inside the gated neighborhood, chose to just take off running.

4/12/2012 11:46:33 PM

Weren't people asking a few pages back why Trayvon didn't just run home? seems like people would condemn him both ways...

Quote :

"Yet Trayvon, already inside the gated neighborhood, chose to just take off running."

Running in the face of fear is the most common, normal human reaction.

[Edited on April 12, 2012 at 11:49 PM. Reason : ]

4/12/2012 11:48:15 PM

Quote :

"While I don't consider Zimmerman some model citizen, I seriously doubt he would have just tackled or shot the kid if he Trayvon had just been "Just walking home from the store from getting some snack, I'm visiting my dad from Miami for the week""

Seriously?

4/12/2012 11:49:54 PM

^^he'd be dead either way, shot in the back or in the chest...

[Edited on April 12, 2012 at 11:50 PM. Reason : .]

4/12/2012 11:49:55 PM

Oh really? Did he get shot while he was running away?

4/12/2012 11:50:47 PM

Quote :

"he walks/runs away, you continue to follow in order to continue keeping an eye on him? I wouldn't call that escalation (unless you follow him onto his property or something). he walks/runs away, you go sprinting after him, chasing him down...that could definitely be escalation."

That's a pretty fine line you're trying to walk. So fine as to appear nearly arbitrary.

4/12/2012 11:51:52 PM

So, I think it's worth considering what would make someone running away stop...and retaliate against the person pursuing them.

Perhaps, that are caught, and grabbed?
Perhaps, they are cornered and see no other way out?

Point is... It would seem that Trayvon had just as much right to stand his ground as Zimmerman may have had. In a court, I think this will boil down to who tried to actively avoid the conflict and who pursued it.

4/12/2012 11:51:56 PM

Quote :

"Trayvon had just as much right to stand his ground as Zimmerman"

That is a fact.

4/12/2012 11:52:50 PM

Quote :

"Seriously?"

Yes, seriously.

Lets stop acting like Trayvon was walking down 8 Mile in Detroit.

While this is not a gated complex with million dollar mansions, it was hardly the hood.

There is no reasonable assumption that Zimmerman was out to harm him.

If people can just innocently walk down the street, they can innocently drive slow down the road.

A lot of it probably has to do with the fact that Trayvon was from out of town, and probably wasn't familiar with the neighborhood area as if he lived there full time, which I can understand..

But once in the gate, I don't think it would have been too out of line for him to just walk up to Zimmermans car and see whats up.

Again, my first reaction wouldn't have been to just take off running considering my current location.

4/12/2012 11:54:01 PM

Quote :

"Point is... It would seem that Trayvon had just as much right to stand his ground as Zimmerman may have had. In a court, I think this will boil down to who tried to actively avoid the conflict and who pursued it."

If we assume that it was Martin screaming for help, this is easy...

Martin 1) tried to run away 2) was yelling for help (perhaps in between what appear to have been limp-wristed punches on Zimmerman) at the time he was shot

Zimmerman 1) waited for at least 49 seconds while Martin yelled for help before shooting him

4/12/2012 11:55:36 PM

^^^^ That is more or less what I've been trying to say, although maybe you and I aren't in total agreement on what is relevant in terms of provoking vs avoiding conflict.

Quote :

"That's a pretty fine line you're trying to walk. So fine as to appear nearly arbitrary."

Well yeah, I said it was a tough call, and got pressed on the what-ifs. So...like I said, it's a tough call.

[Edited on April 12, 2012 at 11:57 PM. Reason : ^ on the other hand, those 49+ sec could be construed as Z not shooting until he felt it really nec.]

4/12/2012 11:56:04 PM

Quote :

"If people can just innocently walk down the street, they can innocently drive slow down the road."

LOL

wow...

Quote :

"While this is not a gated complex with million dollar mansions, it was hardly the hood. There is no reasonable assumption that Zimmerman was out to harm him."

This is one of the dumbest things i've read too. Bad things happen anywhere, even "good" neighborhoods. Clearly in this case, Trayvon DID have something to fear...

[Edited on April 12, 2012 at 11:58 PM. Reason : ]

4/12/2012 11:57:00 PM

^^^^ If Martin had complied with Zimmerman, he wouldn't have been shot. That's what you're saying.

Quote :

"There is no reasonable assumption that Zimmerman was out to harm him."

I've got a question for you:

You're walking down the street and someone follows you in a vehicle. You get nervous and run. The driver gets out of his vehicle and follows you.

What reasonable assumptions can you make about the follower?

[Edited on April 13, 2012 at 12:02 AM. Reason : \/ no, tacolu. I think I counted my carets correctly.]

4/12/2012 11:57:44 PM

Quote :

"If Martin had complied with Zimmerman, he wouldn't have been shot. That's what you're saying."

What? Is that directed at me?

4/12/2012 11:58:56 PM

I like how we sucked Duke into chit chat...
HA HA HA

4/13/2012 12:00:44 AM

Quote :

"listed as being unemployed"

MORE LIKE FULL TIME ARMED SELF APPOINTED COMMUNITY WATCH CAPTAIN???

AMIRITE?

4/13/2012 12:01:07 AM

which if perfectly fine, if that's the case

4/13/2012 12:02:29 AM

Quote :

" Point is... It would seem that Trayvon had just as much right to stand his ground as Zimmerman may have had. In a court, I think this will boil down to who tried to actively avoid the conflict and who pursued it."

I was trying to say something along the lines of this way back in this thread.

I think it's just a fucked up situation.

Trayvon thought someone was after him, so he runs.

Zimmerman follows thinking he is after another burglar in the neighborhood.

It doesn't matter legally what we know now, only his state of mind at the time.

Zimmerman thinks he is reasonably chasing a criminal, and Trayvon thinks he is running from one.

IBT "Well Trayvon was running from a criminal, the murderer Zimmerman"

Not the point.

Each one probably reasonably thought they were fleeing and following a criminal.

So, at whatever point they meet up, maybe Trayvon attacks Zimmerman first as a first response strike, maybe Zimmerman hits Trayvon first thinking he has finally come face to face with the criminal.

I think each person AT THE TIME, thought they were defending themself from someone trying to cause them harm.

Now we know a good understanding of the situation, but you have to put yourself in Zimmermans shoes this night.

He thinks he sees another burglar, doesnt matter on suspicion or whatever, so dont argue it, him it confirms his suspicions when this person takes off, so he pursues, so when the altercation occurs, he has no idea that its just an unarmed kid with skittles and a canned drink.

On the other side, Trayvon probably didn't know that Zimmerman was just the neighborhood watch guy out on patrol. We never hear Zimmerman identify himself, not that he had to do this, or that it matters.

So when these two meet up under whatever circumstances, its probably not going to end well.

I don't know what the legal defenition of this is, if two people reasonably think they are defending themselves from a criminal and one dies in "self defense" even though both parties are innocent.

Maybe it is manslaughter, or reckless endangerment. Not totally sure.

But given that scenario, Its NOT murder.



The reason I am so mad, is because that is a possible scenario that COULD have likely happened based on the evidence, and most black people dont even want to consider that that could have happened.

The only thing they think happened is that this guy shot this "kid" for being black, in cold blood.

4/13/2012 12:03:28 AM

Quote :

"You're walking down the street and someone follows you in a vehicle. You get nervous and run. The driver gets out of his vehicle and follows you. What reasonable assumptions can you make about the follower?"

Rob, Rape, Murder

The person is not chasing you to tell you your shoe is untied or something.

4/13/2012 12:04:42 AM

^^So hey.... you don't get a free pass based on whatever thought was flowing through your head at the moment...

4/13/2012 12:06:58 AM

Quote :

"This is one of the dumbest things i've read too. Bad things happen anywhere, even "good" neighborhoods. Clearly in this case, Trayvon DID have something to fear..."

Never said they didn't.

We are all pretty smart, we go to, or went to NCSU.

I think we can all agree on this statement.

"More drive by shootings happen in poorer parts of town than in the nice ones"

When is the last time you heard about a drive by shooting in a gated country club community?



Guess what, the poorer parts of a town, STATISTICALLY have more crime than the nice ones.

That is a statistical fact.

That's not saying that bad things don't happen in even the nicest parts of a town, but STATISTICALLY, more happens, and your state of mind is framed by where you are.


You are visiting a friend in the nicest neighborhood in Raleigh. Million dollar houses all around. Gated community, you gotta show ID to get in, etc.

You go for a walk at night....a car comes up behind you going slow.

This is not the same as if you are in crack central in the hood and a car rolls up behind you following you.

Don't even sit here and try and argue that they are the same situation.

4/13/2012 12:09:04 AM

Tell that to Eve Carson

Oh Wait.

4/13/2012 12:10:52 AM

When was the last time you heard of a ponzi scheme taking place in the hood?
Wait...statistically, crime takes place in the hood more often.

[Edited on April 13, 2012 at 12:14 AM. Reason : derp]

4/13/2012 12:13:49 AM

Quote :

"^^So hey.... you don't get a free pass based on whatever thought was flowing through your head at the moment..."

A lot, LEGALLY, matters on your state of mind at the time.

It's a really slippery slope.

Not really trying to argue, just giving examples of how it's not always clear cut.

People have gotten "free" passes for thinking they are killing an intruder into their houses or whatnot when it turns out that it was just a drunk neighbor coming into what he thought was his house.

Cops have shot people for pulling out their cell phones.

They weren't charged with shooting an unarmed innocent person.

Yes, I know Zimmerman wasn't a cop, but it shows that it matters what the person is reasonably thinking at the time of the incident.

If Zimmerman had a reasonably assumption that he was fending off a burglar, etc during the altercation even though Trayvon thought he was defending himself from an attacker pursuing him at the time, then it boils down to a fucked up misunderstanding similar to others where people have not been charged, or gotten acquitted on.


I honestly think they both thought they were doing the correct thing AT THE TIME


I'm even ok with a manslaughter conviction and the guy serves 5yrs or something.

It's a fucked up situation I think, and shit just hit the fan.

I don't think for a minute, that his guy just chased the "kid" down and murdered him.

Most black people aren't willing to say this.

It's a clear cut case of murder to most.

Which is what pisses me off the most.

[Edited on April 13, 2012 at 12:17 AM. Reason : ,]

4/13/2012 12:14:54 AM

Quote :

"I honestly think they both thought they were doing the correct thing AT THE TIME. "

We punish mistakes of this magnitude in this country. Only one of the actors in this scenario actually made a mistake.

4/13/2012 12:16:53 AM

^^ none of the examples u gave pertain to Zimmerman. Trayvon was doing nothing wrong when Zimmerman followed him

[Edited on April 13, 2012 at 12:18 AM. Reason : .]

4/13/2012 12:17:36 AM

And Zimmerman wasn't doing anything wrong "IF" Trayvon attacked him for following him.

It can go both ways.

4/13/2012 12:18:27 AM